Commentary on “The Wolf and the Lion”

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Sure, the books strongly suggest something between Loras and Renly, and even then there isn't a firm (heh) confirmation that they were lovers, even though Martin himself said that was his intention. For the show to throw it out there so early seems to miss the opportunity to investigate how such a homosexual relationship was so scandalous back then.

Making him more obviously gay than the books isn't a surprise - they're speeding through a lot of content, so they don't have the freedom to spend a lot of time on subtlety. But did they have to make Renly so much of a simpering whiner? That bothered me, and it doesn't seem to fit the character at all. Hell, if I remember right, Renly was supposed to fight in the tournament.

Twotricks:
This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.

What do you think about these changes ?

I honestly never picked up on Renly or Loras being gay in the book, though Martin has said he intended it I think. Also in the Illyrio/Varys scene, its fairly OBVIOUS that one is Illyrio to me, 9in fact I had a hard time working out the other one was Varys. The exchange between Littlefinger and Varys though was utterly superb, it accurately shows the constant conflict and greater political dance going on between them.

Virgil:

Sure, the books strongly suggest something between Loras and Renly, and even then there isn't a firm (heh) confirmation that they were lovers, even though Martin himself said that was his intention. For the show to throw it out there so early seems to miss the opportunity to investigate how such a homosexual relationship was so scandalous back then.

Making him more obviously gay than the books isn't a surprise - they're speeding through a lot of content, so they don't have the freedom to spend a lot of time on subtlety. But did they have to make Renly so much of a simpering whiner? That bothered me, and it doesn't seem to fit the character at all. Hell, if I remember right, Renly was supposed to fight in the tournament.

Renly is supposed to be a young Robert, in strength and prowess as well as looks, I totally agree. He enjoys fine things, but he is also a capable combatant.

Easily the best episode so far.

Glad to see them starting to take some liberties to tell the story a little better. *Renly Loras scene and Baelish Varys scene.

Some very good moments in the episode. Particularly Robert yelling at Ned in the small council meeting and the Eeyrie scene was just as disturbing as the book.

My only complaint, and it is a small one, I seem to recall Ned's and Jaime's fight taking place around nightfall in the rain.

Simriel:

Twotricks:
This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.

What do you think about these changes ?

I honestly never picked up on Renly or Loras being gay in the book, though Martin has said he intended it I think. Also in the Illyrio/Varys scene, its fairly OBVIOUS that one is Illyrio to me, 9in fact I had a hard time working out the other one was Varys. The exchange between Littlefinger and Varys though was utterly superb, it accurately shows the constant conflict and greater political dance going on between them.

In the book.
One of them is probably Varys. But hinted only by his knowledge of secret corridors.
As for second person - there is no way to know who he is. (Because its seen trough Aryas eyes. And she dont know him)

I think the only place its actually revealed is one interview RR.Martin gave.

As for Renly being gay. Its hinted trough whispers in the book.
But nowhere in the book is Loras even hinted as gay (although he has no interest in Sansa, that might be hint enough)

Not that it bothers me, though. Its a good twist to their characters.

Still,

Renly was much grander character in books

And PS

We want more Dire wolves !

This was a great episode and Game of Thrones is quickly becoming one of my most favorite TV shows. I haven't read the books, although I might get them and read ahead during the summer. I can't wait now for next week's episode.

Ensiferum:
One thing I'm still a bit annoyed with is the overabundance of extra sex and nudity that adds nothing to the plot. There was already the right amount of it in the books; throwing more of it in there for no reason just takes me out of my suspension of disbelief and makes me feel like I'm watching bad medieval themed porn and reminds me that the series has certainly been "HBO'd up."

I have the same feelings, all nudity/sex scenes feel 20-30 seconds too long to me. For instance I don't mind that they went out to explore a homosexual relationship, but why not cut the scene when the guy gets down to his knees? The noises that followed were just uncomfortable.

I'm going to say this whole post is spoiler-ific, but I was under the impression this article/thread was more for fans of the series and the article itself has some spoilers, so consider yourself warned if you just watched the show or are.

Simriel:
I honestly never picked up on Renly or Loras being gay in the book, though Martin has said he intended it I think.

It's really only hinted at in the books.For example in "A Clash of Kings"

EMFCRACKSHOT:

solidstatemind:

EMFCRACKSHOT:

As for the forging process, it is indeed different, due to the poor quality and scarcity of metal ores in japan.

Okay, I have to ask what is your source for this statement? Nothing I read in my studies, nor anything I have seen on the Internet has suggested that the ore in Japan was either terribly scarce or of lesser quality-- quite the opposite in fact: the Japanese pioneered several forging techniques which are still in use today.

The japanese forging techniques were incredibly advanced, but japan is incredibly lacking in most forms of natural resources, especially coal and iron. I thought this was well known, and its detailed in a number of texts dealing with the japanese empire.
The lengthy forging process and numerous foldings of the blade were designed to remove the impurities from the metal, producing steel that was comparable in quality to european steel.
lack of coal, iron ore etc was a key factor in the japanese expansion into china.

Since we're wandering pretty far Off-Topic, I'll keep this short:
From what I learned in school:
1) limited supply of iron and coal was not a problem in medieval times. Yes, in the industrial era and WWII, when they needed to produce planes, tanks, ships and other war materials it was an issue, but in the era we're referring to, that wasn't a problem. This is evidenced by the fact that the Japanese weren't overly reliant on weapons that minimized the amount of metal used, such as arrows and spears. (In fact, iron was plentiful enough to be used in farm implements such as the kama).
2) As to 'inferior' iron, perhaps it's a personal quirk, but I dislike the use of the word in this context: it implies that the raw materials were of lesser quality than what was available in the West. The inference is that the end product is also going to be inferior. Actually, 'inferior iron' just has more impurities, which simply requires a longer, more difficult forging process to remove the impurities. In the end, Fe is Fe-- elements don't vary.

So I guess what I'm saying is that your statements in regards to the forging process are somewhat misleading. From what I learned in my classes, the two martial styles and accompanying weapons are not necessarily better or worse than one another, just different- highly evolved to suit the cultural, political, and even geographical environments they were developed in. While I could be mistaken, sure, but I'm not just going to 'take your word' (or Patshiv's) for it over university-level textbooks: you're going to have to provide support for your statement.

EDIT: on a side note, this is exactly why I hate shows like the 'Deadliest Warrior'-- the whole 'what if a samurai fought a spartan?' stuff is total pie-in-the-sky hypotheticals with very little if any basis in reality.

cainx10a:
BRONN!!!!! (I wish one word post was allowed, definitely my favorite character next to Lady B of T, and Jaime).

Another funny thing I just remembered was how some people were complaining about the lack of male nudity in TV Shows, hope Theon provided them a good time. :p

The Diabolical Biz:
OH man...that episode was damn good.

Although I disagree with one thing; you said that Theon Greyjoy gets a 'lukewarm' reception from his sister Asha when he gets back?

Huh...for some reason I didn't get a message about that quote.

Yeah, that scene was hilarious. Also, I agree about Bronn, he is awesome. This is really the episode where all the shit starts kicking off!

I seem to be one of the few people who really loves Lord Eddard Stark, as a character.

Spectrum_Prez:

The way I remember the books was:

Jaime_Wolf:

Third, really? You're really going to complain about a few seconds of gay sex noises in a show where we've seen the tits of every adult woman in the cast in the first handfull of episodes? Was it too much for you when they went into the brothel and there were half a dozen many boobs bouncing around in a single scene? Given the context of the show, that bit about it going on "too long" for you is downright offensive.

Does it really bother you so deeply that a show took a few minutes out of catering to straight men to acknowledge that other kinds of people exist too?

Not only boobies... in all five episodes there were Doggy Style sex, and thats pretty offensive for most woman you know

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