Episode 7: "You Win or You Die"

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Episode 7: "You Win or You Die"

Ned is honorable, brave, and in really big trouble.

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Oh Ned. I kinda wonder why he didn't just bail and return to the Winterfell. Screw the capital. Everything except for the weather sucks anyways. I really hope that they won't kill him. I grew to like his character a lot

Great Recap.

Brilliant episode. Ned just keeps getting screwed over.

And did Ser Jorah get a pardon from the spider? Is he working against Daenerys?

Shame an episode without Tyrion but good to see Jon Snow back.

I was just wondering if you guys were going to post a recap for this week.
I wasn't as surprised by Littlefinger's betrayal as I was disappointed by it. I liked how we finally got to see Drogo and Daenerys actually having a conversation: He hasn't seemed all that "adoring" up till now.
As for the questions: Robert my have been right, but he sure chose a piss-poor assassin.
And we already know his steward poisoned him, at least if they're following the book.

F'Angus:
Great Recap.

Brilliant episode. Ned just keeps getting screwed over.

And did Ser Jorah get a pardon from the spider? Is he working against Daenerys?

Shame an episode without Tyrion but good to see Jon Snow back.

I had heard that the Spider is actually still loyal to the Targaryens, so he may have been testing Jorah's loyalty by saying he was free to return home. At least, that's what I would have done.

Another great episode, even if there wasn't a "golden crown" moment. Drogo's rant was a great scene, though I'm not sure whether Daenerys was pleased with the full content of his speech (specifically the part where he announced his intention to rape a whole load of woman).

Itching to see what happens to Ned now, he's really been left in a tight spot there. Anyway, what is it with the fairer of hair often being complete fools/jerks here? If it's not Vaeserys (probably not how it's spelt, just replacing the D with a V but still) it's Joffrey.

That Grayjoy guy must be pretty desperate. Guess he's going to start putting the moves on the Wildling girl now that his favourite whore has left for the capital...

MarsProbe:
Another great episode, even if there wasn't a "golden crown" moment. Drogo's rant was a great scene, though I'm not sure whether Daenerys was pleased with the full content of his speech (specifically the part where he announced his intention to rape a whole load of woman).

Itching to see what happens to Ned now, he's really been left in a tight spot there. Anyway, what is it with the fairer of hair often being complete fools/jerks here? If it's not Vaeserys (probably not how it's spelt, just replacing the D with a V but still) it's Joffrey.

That Grayjoy guy must be pretty desperate. Guess he's going to start putting the moves on the Wildling girl now that his favourite whore has left for the capital...

I think Theon is just itching to feel more powerful than someone. His dad is head honcho of the Iron Islands, but Theon himself is kind of a third wheel at Winterfell. He's kind of Robb's contemporary, but really not...it's a difficult position for a man his age to be in.

Susan Arendt:
I think Theon is just itching to feel more powerful than someone. His dad is head honcho of the Iron Islands, but Theon himself is kind of a third wheel at Winterfell. He's kind of Robb's contemporary, but really not...it's a difficult position for a man his age to be in.

Ah, I knew he must have had a first name. I liked how the 'mere' Wildling was able to quickly deconstruct his justification for being addressed as Lord. Once this series is over, I think I will need to pick up for the book. No doubt there will be a lot of extra background detail in there as well.

And a map. It better have a map :)

I have just finished watching ep 1 through 7 back to back (I was a little late to the party), and I LOVE THIS SHOW! I have not read the books (but I plan to do so very soon) so everything is new to me.

A couple of thoughts after ep. 7:

R.I.P, King Robert, you drunken bastard, you!

Ned is in deep doo-doo, but I think that his show of honor and loyalty to King Robert might win him some favours from the Commander of the guards (can´t remember his name, older guy...). Perhaps enough to help Ned escape.

Personally I don´t think the Lannisters would have messed with the wine. Remember how Jamie likes for everything to be "clean". Far more likely that the Kings steward had orders to make sure that the King was well and truly drunk during the hunt, to increase the odds of a tragic accident.

Whether or not King Robert was right to order Danerys´ assassination, the problem now lies with whoever sits on the throne when Drogo arrives! I pity the fool....

Id never neen this show but id seen lots about it here so when saw they were doing a recap on sunday of all the episodes i decided to giv it a try and ive got to say this is one badass show. thanks escapist for getting me to watch it.

anyway the assasin was terrible and it seems that ned is always right but no one listens to him and hes constantly getting screwed over like the ending to this episode.

I love reading people's posts from the people who haven't read the books. I sorta wish I hadn't read them before hand, but now that I know what's going to happen, it's so fun reading the comments.

With so much that's unfolded thus far, everyone who is still entralled must be getting excited. While some are wondering about Ned and the Dothreki hoard stories, I'm currently really interested in the wall and what might just lie beyond it, real creepy stuff so far.

So, I have read part of the book, but have yet to catch up to the show. So I'm still in the dark!

But during the episode when they discussed the assassination of Daenerys my thinking that Ned was right, but not only for the reasons given: attempting an assassination, and failing, would guarantee the exact result they had hoped to avoid. And lo and behold this episode proved my thinking right. I think if this argument was put foward it would have been a much stronger position to convince others to at least wait before such a measure was undertaken.

The fact that was pushed for before it was really needed leads me to question the motives of those who counseled Robert for action now.

Again, please no spoilers, this is just what I'm thinking. I don't want answers; I'm content to watch the show.

Ned, poor Ned, should have been looking at the long game with regards to the Lannisters. Issuing the ultimatum to Jaime (last episode), and then waiting too long to seize the Protectorship of the Realm, were poor decisions on his part. Too many loyal Lannisters around for such bold moves. I think Littlefinger's advice was sound: make good, swear to Cersei that the Realm does not need infighting in the wake of Robert's death, and that Joffrey as heir will be king when he is of age. Then he could maneuver his way to a stronger position over the course of a few years.

I suppose we'll see what happens. I expect Ned will die soon, and that this will galvanize the Stark children to rise up and grow up very quickly. All except Sansa, of course, who will remain in the kingdom and become a virtual hostage to the Lannisters. Just some guesses, I admit. I suppose we'll see!

Stabby Joe:
With so much that's unfolded thus far, everyone who is still entralled must be getting excited. While some are wondering about Ned and the Dothreki hoard stories, I'm currently really interested in the wall and what might just lie beyond it, real creepy stuff so far.

I have a feeling that whatever lies beyond will reveal itself just in time for a cliffhanger into season two...

A.Balthazor:
So, I have read part of the book, but have yet to catch up to the show. So I'm still in the dark!

But during the episode when they discussed the assassination of Daenerys my thinking that Ned was right, but not only for the reasons given: attempting an assassination, and failing, would guarantee the exact result they had hoped to avoid. And lo and behold this episode proved my thinking right. I think if this argument was put foward it would have been a much stronger position to convince others to at least wait before such a measure was undertaken.

And you think a successful assassination would be any better? Unless they tried really hard to make it look like a sickness or an accident, Drogo would have still flipped his shit. Honestly, I don't think the man needs a reason to go rape and pillage, give him one and that'll be terrifying.

zungerman090:
Oh Ned. I kinda wonder why he didn't just bail and return to the Winterfell. Screw the capital. Everything except for the weather sucks anyways. I really hope that they won't kill him. I grew to like his character a lot

He couldn't. He was duty-bound to his friend and King to do the best he can with what he's got.

Granted, he probably didn't go about it quite the right way, but one of his flaws is that Eddard tends to think everybody is as trustworthy as he himself is. Which up in Winterfell and the North may be more or less true because life is so different up there, but in King's Landing... yeeeeaaaahh... not so much. People are far more grasping and greedy without the constant reminder of what winter is like to help hold them together (Keep in mind the summer has been roughly 10 years long at this point in the story).

Stabby Joe:
With so much that's unfolded thus far, everyone who is still entralled must be getting excited. While some are wondering about Ned and the Dothreki hoard stories, I'm currently really interested in the wall and what might just lie beyond it, real creepy stuff so far.

What lies beyond The Wall is more or less a book in and of itself. Won't be seeing too much of that this season, unfortunately. You may recall the Wildlings referring to a guy called "Mance Rayder" or the "King-Beyond-The-Wall" when they were talking amongst each other. Those names start to pick up importance soon.

WouldYouKindly:

A.Balthazor:
So, I have read part of the book, but have yet to catch up to the show. So I'm still in the dark!

But during the episode when they discussed the assassination of Daenerys my thinking that Ned was right, but not only for the reasons given: attempting an assassination, and failing, would guarantee the exact result they had hoped to avoid. And lo and behold this episode proved my thinking right. I think if this argument was put foward it would have been a much stronger position to convince others to at least wait before such a measure was undertaken.

And you think a successful assassination would be any better? Unless they tried really hard to make it look like a sickness or an accident, Drogo would have still flipped his shit. Honestly, I don't think the man needs a reason to go rape and pillage, give him one and that'll be terrifying.

Perhaps that was the point? Someone wanted to encourage Drogo to go on the war path. I seem to remember that he showed little interest in crossing the narrow sea before...

Stein Inge:

Ned is in deep doo-doo, but I think that his show of honor and loyalty to King Robert might win him some favours from the Commander of the guards (can´t remember his name, older guy...). Perhaps enough to help Ned escape.
Whether or not King Robert was right to order Danerys´ assassination, the problem now lies with whoever sits on the throne when Drogo arrives! I pity the fool....

You mean Ser Barristan, the commander of the Kingsguard. The commander of the guards is Janos Slynt, the guy that was meant to help Ned, the bastard.

Off topic, I've always wondered why Eddard is shortened to Ned. Halfway through the fourth book and it's never been explained.

WouldYouKindly:

A.Balthazor:
So, I have read part of the book, but have yet to catch up to the show. So I'm still in the dark!

But during the episode when they discussed the assassination of Daenerys my thinking that Ned was right, but not only for the reasons given: attempting an assassination, and failing, would guarantee the exact result they had hoped to avoid. And lo and behold this episode proved my thinking right. I think if this argument was put foward it would have been a much stronger position to convince others to at least wait before such a measure was undertaken.

And you think a successful assassination would be any better? Unless they tried really hard to make it look like a sickness or an accident, Drogo would have still flipped his shit. Honestly, I don't think the man needs a reason to go rape and pillage, give him one and that'll be terrifying.

Dothraki society is built around rape and pillage, actually. That's how thier culture thrives. The only permanent city they have is Vaes Dothrak and a lot of that is just a collection of loot dumped out on the plains below a mountain next to a lake. 90% of a Dothraki's life is spent going to or coming from a battle or raid. Jorah explains in one of the earlier episodes that's how they get the slave labor that they rely on so much.

Stein Inge:

WouldYouKindly:

A.Balthazor:
So, I have read part of the book, but have yet to catch up to the show. So I'm still in the dark!

But during the episode when they discussed the assassination of Daenerys my thinking that Ned was right, but not only for the reasons given: attempting an assassination, and failing, would guarantee the exact result they had hoped to avoid. And lo and behold this episode proved my thinking right. I think if this argument was put foward it would have been a much stronger position to convince others to at least wait before such a measure was undertaken.

And you think a successful assassination would be any better? Unless they tried really hard to make it look like a sickness or an accident, Drogo would have still flipped his shit. Honestly, I don't think the man needs a reason to go rape and pillage, give him one and that'll be terrifying.

Perhaps that was the point? Someone wanted to encourage Drogo to go on the war path. I seem to remember that he showed little interest in crossing the narrow sea before...

But that raises the question: Who in Westros(sp?) would benefit from that. Little finger has other schemes. The fat eunuch; what would he stand to gain from a Dothraki invasion? It does sort of help whoever is sitting on the throne at that time as such a massive outside threat does great things for unity. Drogo could also be helpful for killing whatever happens to be north of the wall. Let the realm get subjugated by Drogo and then he wears himself out against whatever it is then anyone with a decent amount of influence could take the throne.

Thomas Guy:
I love reading people's posts from the people who haven't read the books. I sorta wish I hadn't read them before hand, but now that I know what's going to happen, it's so fun reading the comments.

Haha, i know. It's so hard not to jump in with spoilers, especially when there is so much to debate and analyze in the series. I've recently been arguing with my sister and another friend, trying to explain my position on Catelyn (i'm one of those rare people who don't hate her). Ned's situation and blunders play a big part in my reasoning, and i'd love to have more people to debate it, but with all these new fans, there's so much potential to spoil things for them :(

SadisticBrownie:
Off topic, I've always wondered why Eddard is shortened to Ned. Halfway through the fourth book and it's never been explained.

Same reason some Johns are called Jack, and even in our world some Eds are Neds (it's not common, but it happens). There are a lot of other similar situations, just can't think of them off the top of my head.

WouldYouKindly:

Stein Inge:

WouldYouKindly:

And you think a successful assassination would be any better? Unless they tried really hard to make it look like a sickness or an accident, Drogo would have still flipped his shit. Honestly, I don't think the man needs a reason to go rape and pillage, give him one and that'll be terrifying.

Perhaps that was the point? Someone wanted to encourage Drogo to go on the war path. I seem to remember that he showed little interest in crossing the narrow sea before...

But that raises the question: Who in Westros(sp?) would benefit from that. Little finger has other schemes. The fat eunuch; what would he stand to gain from a Dothraki invasion? It does sort of help whoever is sitting on the throne at that time as such a massive outside threat does great things for unity. Drogo could also be helpful for killing whatever happens to be north of the wall. Let the realm get subjugated by Drogo and then he wears himself out against whatever it is then anyone with a decent amount of influence could take the throne.

I was thinking that maybe the new Dothreki (sp?) queen thought that maybe her husband needed a little... push?

WouldYouKindly:

Stein Inge:

WouldYouKindly:

And you think a successful assassination would be any better? Unless they tried really hard to make it look like a sickness or an accident, Drogo would have still flipped his shit. Honestly, I don't think the man needs a reason to go rape and pillage, give him one and that'll be terrifying.

Perhaps that was the point? Someone wanted to encourage Drogo to go on the war path. I seem to remember that he showed little interest in crossing the narrow sea before...

But that raises the question: Who in Westros(sp?) would benefit from that. Little finger has other schemes. The fat eunuch; what would he stand to gain from a Dothraki invasion? It does sort of help whoever is sitting on the throne at that time as such a massive outside threat does great things for unity. Drogo could also be helpful for killing whatever happens to be north of the wall. Let the realm get subjugated by Drogo and then he wears himself out against whatever it is then anyone with a decent amount of influence could take the throne.

That is a good question to ask and unfortunately, not all of the Dramatis Personae have been introduced yet so any guesses are more or less shots in the dark at this point. Just to frustrate you a bit, I will say that the evolution of this story is *very* dynamic and you can expect a lot of the status quo to change in the coming episodes as characters change and goals are achieved or rendered obsolete.

Does the first season start and end where the first book strats and ends?

Does the first season start and end where the first book starts and ends?

TheShogun:
Does the first season start and end where the first book strats and ends?

I think so, yes. But we'll see. There are three episodes left, I believe.

F'Angus:
Great Recap.

Brilliant episode. Ned just keeps getting screwed over.

And did Ser Jorah get a pardon from the spider? Is he working against Daenerys?

Shame an episode without Tyrion but good to see Jon Snow back.

This was a new scene to the series, but the way I interpreted the part with Jorah is that the pardon basically says 'good job, the girl will die, you can come home now'. Why else would he get the pardon if he wasn't needed to spy anymore? But then some inner turmoil takes place, he started out as a spy because his only goal was to be able to return home, but over the months traveling with Dany she's earned his respect and admiration so he's no longer willing to return home at all costs and rushes off to save her.

For the assassination attempt itself, there's a lot of misconception from new people to the series. That initial argument to kill her or not was much more complex on the 'how' in the books, and I'm not going to go into detail because this is a spoilers free forum, but let's just say the actual method being employed here (because it likely won't come up again) is more of a shotgun approach. Announce a great reward and a lordship for the demise of Daenerys Targaryen, and let whoever is brave enough take their shot. The dude with the wine really was just a merchant, not an assassin, who decided to take his chance for the reward.

I think what Ser Jorah did is a part of the plan of the spider. This is the way to make sure that invasion will happen.

F'Angus:
Great Recap.

Brilliant episode. Ned just keeps getting screwed over.

And did Ser Jorah get a pardon from the spider? Is he working against Daenerys?

Shame an episode without Tyrion but good to see Jon Snow back.

He is a spy for the spider. It was clearly mentioned few episodes ago. What I think is, saving Daenerys life from the poison is part of the plan too.

Should Robert have tried to kill the girl? No. Let a sleeping dog lie. The attempt is what is going to cause the undesired action, aka the hoard crossing the narrow sea.

As for Ned Stark and his honor. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and having not read the book I have no idea how this is going to turn out but after seeing the last episode all bets are off. It's sort of refreshing to have all the main characters on the chopping block. In a normal TV show half the tension of the scene is lost when it come to the main actors cause you know they can't die. With this show anyone could be next. I was sure that the Visery was going to be a sniveling little worm through the entire show but when they burned him out my jaw hit the floor. spend all that screen time on a character that you are just going to kill off? wow there are a few people I am no longer sure are going to make it to the end of this now. I love it.

Here's something interesting: Khal Drogo plans to enslave the children of Westeros, rape the women, et cetera, right?

...but didn't Ser Jorah JUST receive a pardon to return to his family, who is still in Westeros? Gotta wonder what was going through his head there.

RandallJohn:
Here's something interesting: Khal Drogo plans to enslave the children of Westeros, rape the women, et cetera, right?

...but didn't Ser Jorah JUST receive a pardon to return to his family, who is still in Westeros? Gotta wonder what was going through his head there.

Yep, but as a reader of the book, I can tell you, that family is fairly limited. His father is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, so is part of a neutral force that won't get involved in fights like this. His aunt and nieces inherited their home of Bear Island, which is so far north and so desolate (not to mention an island, which would mean crossing the sea AGAIN for the horde even if they did get that far), they're an unlikely target. I'd say Jorah's family is safe, at least from the Dothraki ;).

RandallJohn:
...but didn't Ser Jorah JUST receive a pardon to return to his family, who is still in Westeros? Gotta wonder what was going through his head there.

Well since he saved the kalessis' (probably not spelt correctly) life, I'm sure he can trade the "any stallion you want" to "don't rape my wife and enslave my children".
But you should be thinking in the way of who can give out a pardon - the king - so it also probably says to kill Daenerys...in the end this might prove wrong though (I haven't read the book), but it probably isn't the case, after what RandV80 said, unless they changed things a bit from the sseries conversion.

Damn this weekly releases, so long to wait for the resolution. I probably won't read the book, this is very interesting tale and show without the expanded universe, besides I'll kind of feel tacky for buying the book since now all the editions are with the cover with a picture from the series (Sean Bean sitting on the Iron throne if I remember correctly).

anian:

RandallJohn:
...but didn't Ser Jorah JUST receive a pardon to return to his family, who is still in Westeros? Gotta wonder what was going through his head there.

Well since he saved the kalessis' (probably not spelt correctly) life, I'm sure he can trade the "any stallion you want" to "don't rape my wife and enslave my children".
But you should be thinking in the way of who can give out a pardon - the king - so it also probably says to kill Daenerys...in the end this might prove wrong though (I haven't read the book), but it probably isn't the case, after what RandV80 said, unless they changed things a bit from the sseries conversion.

Damn this weekly releases, so long to wait for the resolution. I probably won't read the book, this is very interesting tale and show without the expanded universe, besides I'll kind of feel tacky for buying the book since now all the editions are with the cover with a picture from the series (Sean Bean sitting on the Iron throne if I remember correctly).

As people have said before me, would it not be the Spider? I think he is still loyal to the Targaryens, so he might be testing Ser Jorah's loyalty.

TheShogun:
As people have said before me, would it not be the Spider? I think he is still loyal to the Targaryens, so he might be testing Ser Jorah's loyalty.

I don't think so. Cause if he wasn't loyal, then he would of kill the very last Targaryen. Seems way to risky over an unimportant man.

Even though Ned Stark has shown himself to be too honourable for his own good, it's a shame since he seemed to be fairly astute about the kingdom. He seemed to take the return of the winter-walkers seriously, acknowledged the coffers are run dry and knew the assassination attempt of the kalessis was a bad idea (though for the wrong reasons)...

...Sean Bean never survives a medieval epic, but yet in the Napoleonic era he's practically unstoppable...

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