On Anonymous

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dogstile:

Clipclop:

Shamus Young:
Experienced Points: On Anonymous

Shamus considers the Anonymous phenomenon.

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And again you sympathize with a group of bullies. What is it with the escapist and going head over heels to defend the name of anonymous? Are you part of the collective? Do they have you scared enough that you can tackle the real issues they impose?

Seriously, I'm tired of these lopsided arguments you people keep coming up with to shine them as "the good guys" its sickening. And guess what? if you even listen to the voice of your readers in the forums, you will see they aren't buying it any longer.

Clearly you don't realise that not every anon is a dick. That's the whole nature of anon. Some are good. Some are bad. United for a common cause for as long as they're needed and then they move on.

The one making lopsided arguments here is you. Scared? Part of the collective? What do you think the escapist is made up of exactly?

Tapping this one off before I go to work.

Do you ever notice how anonymous will only usually take credit for the good things? Any time anything bad happens, from hacking a website, to trolling some random guy, they collectively shout. "splinter group! wasn't us!"or "those clowns aren't the real anonymous!" but when something "positive" happens they don't mind soaking up all the attention like they are truly saviors? Hell more now than ever. the group out right refuses to take true responsibility for anything and anytime something really happens that can make them look even more awful {somehow} they ill swear up and down its not them and try to point the blame elsewhere.

A way to avoid getting everyone arrested when one gets caught is to work in small groups called Cells.
Which is what terrorists have been doing for a loooong time now.
Semi-anonimity is a viable organisational form, without the Internet.

Clipclop:

dogstile:

Clipclop:

And again you sympathize with a group of bullies. What is it with the escapist and going head over heels to defend the name of anonymous? Are you part of the collective? Do they have you scared enough that you can tackle the real issues they impose?

Seriously, I'm tired of these lopsided arguments you people keep coming up with to shine them as "the good guys" its sickening. And guess what? if you even listen to the voice of your readers in the forums, you will see they aren't buying it any longer.

Clearly you don't realise that not every anon is a dick. That's the whole nature of anon. Some are good. Some are bad. United for a common cause for as long as they're needed and then they move on.

The one making lopsided arguments here is you. Scared? Part of the collective? What do you think the escapist is made up of exactly?

Tapping this one off before I go to work.

Do you ever notice how anonymous will only usually take credit for the good things? Any time anything bad happens, from hacking a website, to trolling some random guy, they collectively shout. "splinter group! wasn't us!"or "those clowns aren't the real anonymous!" but when something "positive" happens they don't mind soaking up all the attention like they are truly saviors? Hell more now than ever. the group out right refuses to take true responsibility for anything and anytime something really happens that can make them look even more awful {somehow} they ill swear up and down its not them and try to point the blame elsewhere.

Well done... you have now encountered how life works...

Think for a second. What if the people who started Anon feel very strongly against the bad things? Well the TRUE Anon didn't do it then did they? Some randomers did. Terrorist groups often have splinter factions that just want to cause loads of damage and have no actual ideals. Note the term terrorist. Also shut up I hate your free speech.

Hristo Tzonkov:

Starke:
Massive snip

Thanks for calling my ideology stupid.We can totally clash and measure their IQ.The girl claimed she was 16.Trying to troll,saying she has tits etc.Tits or gtfo is a rule of the internet.She could have always hidden for a while.Apologised.Simple actions that any 12 yo would know.I know I did that age.[/quit]
Well, you're welcome. Yes, we've all reviewed the Jessi Slaughter story by now. But quite frankly Tits or get the fuck out is a rule of 4chan. 4chan is not the internet much in the same way anesthetized bowel surgery is not quality entertainment. And yes, 12 year olds tend to do moronic things. It is always comforting to know that we can expect an equally mature response from Anonymous/4chan though.

Hristo Tzonkov:
I'd rather not have some industry clown speak his mind with something rather offensive because he thinks he's untouchable.

Well, you got one part of that dead on right, this is Gene Simmons we're talking about. Again, it's not about thinking he's untouchable though, the mistake is Simmons thinking he's relevant. Unfortunately for everyone, anonymous validated his crazy card by retaliating against him.

If they'd posted a news release saying, "We'd respond to Mr. Simmons, but then we remembered he was crazier than a Lemur on mescaline," then he would have gotten nothing, and they could still hide behind their claims of believing in free speech. But that didn't exactly happen.

Hristo Tzonkov:
Justin Bieber is already a laughing stock.That said people don't just attack him out of spite.There was also the case where he put a guy's phone number on twitter and told his fans he was a troll.Effectively bullying the kid.But you know best right.

Except, the attack on Bieber came during the LOIC attacks on Visa and Mastercard. Not as part of a separate operation. This wasn't a response to anything Bieber had done (beyond existing). There was no statement of intent from Anon, just a random DDoS.

I'm not saying Bieber isn't an annoying little shit, or that I'm not amused by this. I am saying this was completely fucking random and unprovoked.

poiumty:
[quote="Starke" post="6.288908.11444866"]Right, because that was the problem for the girl Anonymous went after a couple years ago, she was being an "asshole" by not taking off her shirt when they told her to. Right.

Are you talking about Jessi Slaughter? Because you're very uninformed on that front...
Her parents were slacking off at being parents. Someone had to teach her a lesson. She would up getting it the hard way.

Uninformed? Nope. Misremembering? Yes. Others did remind me of the details yesterday, but thank you for the link.

I still find myself waiting for someone to prove Anonymous actually exists.

rembrandtqeinstein:

Imagine the police drag you in and explain that they want the names of all of the people in your organization.

I have to take the opportunity to post this video. The TL;DW is talking to cops under any circumstance is a bad idea. The only words you should say are "am I free to go?" and if the answer is no then the only proper response is "I would like to speak to an attorney"

I seriously love that video. It's been a couple months since someone posted it, but still.

Vetinarii:

Clipclop:

Tapping this one off before I go to work.

Do you ever notice how anonymous will only usually take credit for the good things? Any time anything bad happens, from hacking a website, to trolling some random guy, they collectively shout. "splinter group! wasn't us!"or "those clowns aren't the real anonymous!" but when something "positive" happens they don't mind soaking up all the attention like they are truly saviors? Hell more now than ever. the group out right refuses to take true responsibility for anything and anytime something really happens that can make them look even more awful {somehow} they ill swear up and down its not them and try to point the blame elsewhere.

Well done... you have now encountered how life works...

Think for a second. What if the people who started Anon feel very strongly against the bad things? Well the TRUE Anon didn't do it then did they? Some randomers did. Terrorist groups often have splinter factions that just want to cause loads of damage and have no actual ideals. Note the term terrorist. Also shut up I hate your free speech.

It's not so much "how life works" as how organizations tend to behave when they don't have a coherent ideology underlining their actions. Sure you get schisms in any group, but this is a kind of blatant opportunism that really doesn't fool anyone with half a brain.

Actually, the freedom to "protest peacefully" is a misinterpretation of what people's ACTUAL rights should be. Just because someone isn't attacking you with a club doesn't mean he has the right to walk in your front door, sit in your living room, and refuse to leave. He CERTAINLY doesn't have the right to physically block you from getting out of your house so you can go to work, even if he never raises a hand against you. So why should people have the "right" to do this to businesses and government agencies? Don't people who own businesses and work at government agencies have rights?

Property owners have the right to the use of their property. If you are forcibly blocking them from doing so they have the absolute right to remove you from their property.

And, no, that street or sidewalk in front of their property is not a "public" street for anyone to use for any purpose they wish. (The fact that everyone is forced to pay for said street by the government aside--the government shouldn't be taking our money to build roads in the first place.) You can't take a jackhammer out there some day and start ripping up the road at your whim. Nor should you be permitted to interfere with the other people who are legally using that street.

The right to peaceably assemble means that you have the right to meet and talk with people if you have permission from the property owner where you are assembling. I don't see any problem with people standing around with signs and distributing leaflets, either, provided, again, that they have the permission of the property owner. But once you start using force (not necessarily being violent, but violence is *not* the only form of physical force) the police should send you off.

Clipclop:

bombadilillo:

Clipclop:

To bad you can't "stop" anon when they have you in their sights. I'm sure plenty of people wished they could turn them off, eh?

Yeah, Hal Turner and Chris Forcand were harrassed.

Good deeds to not exempt someone from bad deeds. Anon engages in far more bad than good, unless you've never actually lurked on a chan and seen their completely unprovoked trolling brigades?

I like how people keep sqauking out the same 5 or 6 good things (and more ironically most of them happened over 4 years ago) they have done, the same names, the same events, and at the same time completely ignore everything else. There is a REASON they are known as the assholes of the internet, or did you forget that to?

/b is not anonymous, you are confusing the chans with the actual movement.

Clipclop:

I admit here and now (as if i actually have to at this point) I hate anonymous. Completely and utterly. I think they are a collection of terrible poeple with insane every changing ideals, i think they are responsible for there splinter groups because they themselves created them. I have a absolute 10 mile high hate boner for anons. And i swing here in your faces.

They probably do more good that I've ever heard of but thats only because i can't hear it over all the bad they do as well. I'm sure the actual group only a tiny percentage actually engage in any of the criminal or hurtful acts. But i don't believe that just "voids" you from responsibility or acknowledgement.

Okay, I've sat and read all of your posts up until this point. You've gone too far.

I'll level with you, I have participated in trolling a internet radio station. Technically this makes me a part of anonymous. Does this however make me a "terrible person with ever changing ideals?" Like fuck it does!

and nothing, NOTHING gives you the right to judge another person based on their ideals.

Toasty Virus:

Clipclop:

I admit here and now (as if i actually have to at this point) I hate anonymous. Completely and utterly. I think they are a collection of terrible poeple with insane every changing ideals, i think they are responsible for there splinter groups because they themselves created them. I have a absolute 10 mile high hate boner for anons. And i swing here in your faces.

They probably do more good that I've ever heard of but thats only because i can't hear it over all the bad they do as well. I'm sure the actual group only a tiny percentage actually engage in any of the criminal or hurtful acts. But i don't believe that just "voids" you from responsibility or acknowledgement.

Okay, I've sat and read all of your posts up until this point. You've gone too far.

I'll level with you, I have participated in trolling a internet radio station. Technically this makes me a part of anonymous. Does this however make me a "terrible person with ever changing ideals?" Like fuck it does!

and nothing, NOTHING gives you the right to judge another person based on their ideals.

yes it does. I regularly judge the entire nazi movement for their insane ideals, I judge nambla, and peta and a multitude of other organizations. based on their ideals. Most normal people do this as well. In fact. How do you think poeple choose to join groups in the first place? They take that groups ideals, and based on how they see them join or reject their cause. I have every "right" do look at anonymous fundamentals and judge the group on how they carry them out. Hell, seeing as this is america, I have every right to do everything lawful but out right attack them with ddos, or cracking a anonymous focused website, or going into there irc channels and stealing all their passwords and information.... Oh wait, i don't but they do for some reason because they have different ideals.

The question here is why you are even going this route to begin with, according to anonymous, they have no "ideals" to begin with. Your speaking for them on something they say doesn't exist. Which is very confusing.

Toasty Virus:

Clipclop:

I admit here and now (as if i actually have to at this point) I hate anonymous. Completely and utterly. I think they are a collection of terrible poeple with insane every changing ideals, i think they are responsible for there splinter groups because they themselves created them. I have a absolute 10 mile high hate boner for anons. And i swing here in your faces.

They probably do more good that I've ever heard of but thats only because i can't hear it over all the bad they do as well. I'm sure the actual group only a tiny percentage actually engage in any of the criminal or hurtful acts. But i don't believe that just "voids" you from responsibility or acknowledgement.

Okay, I've sat and read all of your posts up until this point. You've gone too far.

I'll level with you, I have participated in trolling a internet radio station. Technically this makes me a part of anonymous. Does this however make me a "terrible person with ever changing ideals?" Like fuck it does!

and nothing, NOTHING gives you the right to judge another person based on their ideals.

Then I think you missed the point. I don't think anyone in here is really hammering on Anonymous for their espoused ideals. They are being judged based on how they betray their own espoused ideals at every turn, sabotaging the very causes they claim to champion.

Is it legitimate to judge someone because of their ideology? Well, yes. We do it all the time. It may not be tasteful, or fair, but it does happen.

Is it legitimate to judge someone for their actions? Absolutely. It is also legitimate and completely fair to judge someone's actions based on their own espoused ideology. Those who fall short are called hypocrites. A term we can readily apply to Anonymous.

Sudenak:

Clipclop:

And again you sympathize with a group of bullies. What is it with the escapist and going head over heels to defend the name of anonymous? Are you part of the collective? Do they have you scared enough that you can tackle the real issues they impose?

Seriously, I'm tired of these lopsided arguments you people keep coming up with to shine them as "the good guys" its sickening. And guess what? if you even listen to the voice of your readers in the forums, you will see they aren't buying it any longer.

I'm assuming you're a Sony fanboy or summat, and hopped on the "blame Anonymous" bandwagon as soon as you could.

It's just a loosely connected group of internet folk. That do stuff. They don't go out of their to be assholes, nor do they try and bully the little guy. When they organized massive protests of Scientology, was that them being evil?

Also, blindly obeying "the voice of the forums" would probably be the single most idiotic thing that any group could ever do. Seriously. We wouldn't have Unskippable, Extra Credits, Zero Punctuation, and so on, because there's always a chunk of people going "you really lost your touch, not entertaining/right at all, stop making these".

Frankly, I applaud them for tackling an actual issue, which is that everyone is scrambling to find a scapegoat for Sony once more taking a crap on its userbase. And this was Sony taking a crap on their userbase, because if they gave even half a damn about them they would have installed some basic security.

Or should we just only have opinions that kiss Sony's ass, chanting that Anonymous is the New Big Evil in the internet world and that we must band together to stop Them? Just because you disagree, doesn't mean everyone else does. I like Anon, I think they didn't do it. You can't get me to disagree with my opinion.

tell me exactly how they attacked the problem? buy sending hundreds of thousands of customers forcefully offline? buy releasing the personal information of thousands of bottom wrung paper pushing employees trying to earn their 9 to 5?? How did they do anything but catastrophically effect literally hundreds of thousands of poeple who had nothing to do with this to begin with? the "choice makers" in sony are all at the top, not at the bottom. They disrupted the jobs and gaming of a insane amount of innocent poeple to "make a point" they are going after firms who have utterly nothing to do with sony's gaming market now. Tell me what lesson was taught, and how this "eye opener" has done anything more than piss a scores of poeple off who had nothing to do with this in the first place?

they have no concern who they effect as long as they get out there message. No matter what the impact is, no matter the collateral damage, no matter who's effected.

And you wonder why poeple call them terrorists.

edit: And as if that wasn't enough, they do this well outside the boundaries of the law, doing some things that could land them over 25 years in the slammer. They aren't even brave protesters, they hide and do things from thousands of miles away, doing all they can to not get caught. at least in the 70's they had the balls to actually show up and protest without breaking 10 laws in the process.

You can have your thugs buddy.

Talking about Anonymous?! You brave fool, are you TRYING to piss off the volcano?

The Great JT:
Talking about Anonymous?! You brave fool, are you TRYING to piss off the volcano?

Nope, but I would expect that to happen. be nice to the group of bullies or have your shit smacked. praise everything they do, bend over and kiss their ass, or prepared to get a beat down.

Vetinarii:

Clipclop:

Tapping this one off before I go to work.

Do you ever notice how anonymous will only usually take credit for the good things? Any time anything bad happens, from hacking a website, to trolling some random guy, they collectively shout. "splinter group! wasn't us!"or "those clowns aren't the real anonymous!" but when something "positive" happens they don't mind soaking up all the attention like they are truly saviors? Hell more now than ever. the group out right refuses to take true responsibility for anything and anytime something really happens that can make them look even more awful {somehow} they ill swear up and down its not them and try to point the blame elsewhere.

Well done... you have now encountered how life works...

Think for a second. What if the people who started Anon feel very strongly against the bad things? Well the TRUE Anon didn't do it then did they? Some randomers did. Terrorist groups often have splinter factions that just want to cause loads of damage and have no actual ideals. Note the term terrorist. Also shut up I hate your free speech.

It's not so much "how life works" as how organizations tend to behave when they don't have a coherent ideology underlining their actions. Sure you get schisms in any group, but this is a kind of blatant opportunism that really doesn't fool anyone with half a brain.[/quote]

You're wrong, and blatantly wrong at that. People will take the praise and soak up the good while trying to cast the blame at others when things go bad. No one wants to admit they dun goofed up, and organizations are even worse for that. Individuals will sometimes admit it. Organizations, companies, and large entities however have a reputation to consider. And they will pick the easiest scapegoat available to pin the blame on, and continue trucking along like nothing happened if they can. If they can't, they'll HAVE to accept some responsibility.

rembrandtqeinstein:

Imagine the police drag you in and explain that they want the names of all of the people in your organization.

I have to take the opportunity to post this video. The TL;DW is talking to cops under any circumstance is a bad idea. The only words you should say are "am I free to go?" and if the answer is no then the only proper response is "I would like to speak to an attorney"

No offense, but the police is the USA are either terribly underqualified, or the system is entirely broken at it's core. I have to admit that here in Denmark the court functions differently. Specefically that no person can be convicted aslong as it is questionable whether or not the prosecuted is guilty.

Without proof, all you have is guesswork, and then we might aswell just flip a coin.

Retosa:

Starke, Master of the Quote Tags:
It's not so much "how life works" as how organizations tend to behave when they don't have a coherent ideology underlining their actions. Sure you get schisms in any group, but this is a kind of blatant opportunism that really doesn't fool anyone with half a brain.

You're wrong, and blatantly wrong at that.

No, not really. But, I'm sure I have a lot to learn on that subject from you. :p

Retosa:
People will take the praise and soak up the good while trying to cast the blame at others when things go bad. No one wants to admit they dun goofed up, and organizations are even worse for that. Individuals will sometimes admit it. Organizations, companies, and large entities however have a reputation to consider. And they will pick the easiest scapegoat available to pin the blame on, and continue trucking along like nothing happened if they can. If they can't, they'll HAVE to accept some responsibility.

Well, that is a very cynical view of the world. Not completely incorrect, but very cynical. You're right that most people will not stand up and admit their errors unless they have to, and that (in western culture) groups, and especially companies will avoid it unless they're genuinely caught.

But, that's not what's going on here. In these cases, Anonymous was taking credit for things they did not do, while shirking the blame for the consequences of their actions. In their defense, I seriously doubt they've stopped to consider what the consequences of their actions were, instead, choosing to create a fiction where they are the heroes.

And that, my good sir, is "opportunism," not simply a perspective of human nature.

Sofus:
No offense, but the police is the USA are either terribly underqualified, or the system is entirely broken at it's core. I have to admit that here in Denmark the court functions differently. Specefically that we have no jury (as a jury acts on more than just evidence), and that no person can be convicted aslong as it is questionable whether or not the prosecuted is guilty.

Alot of guilty people do however go free here (minor offences though), simply because the police deem that they lack evidence to get someone convicted, so instead of wasting time in the court they just move on.

While I'm not truly qualified to talk about the complete history of law and civil rights in the States, this is a system that has emerged over the past century and change.

The US inherited a chunk of it's legal system from the British in the eighteenth century, and has continued to evolve it from there. On the whole the system is actually skewed in favor of the accused, but, when it comes to the police, they get a disproportionate affect on court proceeding.

I would encourage you to watch the second half of the video, which presents the side of this from the position of a police officer.

A few dozen Anons have already been picked up. The reality is, lots of Anons know each other, and many of those Anons know other Anons.

The ones who are "Anons when they feel like it" aren't the "highly-motivated" ones involved in anything of significance that Anonymous does.

The very fact that there are certain people who supposedly act as "spokesAnons", and that there are actually "splinter groups" with their own projects and agendas within Anonymous, means that there is some level of organization there...not the perfect semi-anarchy so often claimed.

I think Anonymous is far more dangerous than you think. Regardless of who perpetrated it, the PSN attack shows that a small group of hackers of even minor talent can shut down a whole corporate operation, cost that company billions and, in essence, essentially shift whole sectors of the economy (i.e., after two significant attacks, certainly millions of playstation owners are eyeing the emergency exit right now).

Shortly after the PSN attack, a major US security firm was also hacked (the name escapes me right now), and while the firm CLAIMS no sensitive information was taken, the attack apparently caught them off guard and the next one might just result in the pilfering of some seriously powerful stuff.

Hardly anything exists on paper anymore, and it's fairly obvious that some are slower than others to adapt to the computer age, which leaves huge gaps in security just waiting to be exploited. The power and significance of these attacks will only escalate.

That said, for my money, Anonymous does a pretty good job of sticking to at least a loose set of principles, and often stand up for the little guy. I hesitate to say they're modern day Robin Hoods but they at least act as a sort of watchdog to ensure corporations and politicians adhere to some kind of ethics.

HankMan:
Don't START nothing, then there won't BE nothin.

Well, except for the small fact that Anon's never needed an excuse to start somethin' in the first place. Can't forget that it's all about the lulz...including those sought for the purpose of assuaging self-righteous anger.

Clipclop:

tell me exactly how they attacked the problem? buy sending hundreds of thousands of customers forcefully offline? buy releasing the personal information of thousands of bottom wrung paper pushing employees trying to earn their 9 to 5?? How did they do anything but catastrophically effect literally hundreds of thousands of poeple who had nothing to do with this to begin with? the "choice makers" in sony are all at the top, not at the bottom. They disrupted the jobs and gaming of a insane amount of innocent poeple to "make a point" they are going after firms who have utterly nothing to do with sony's gaming market now. Tell me what lesson was taught, and how this "eye opener" has done anything more than piss a scores of poeple off who had nothing to do with this in the first place?

they have no concern who they effect as long as they get out there message. No matter what the impact is, no matter the collateral damage, no matter who's effected.

And you wonder why poeple call them terrorists.

edit: And as if that wasn't enough, they do this well outside the boundaries of the law, doing some things that could land them over 25 years in the slammer. They aren't even brave protesters, they hide and do things from thousands of miles away, doing all they can to not get caught. at least in the 70's they had the balls to actually show up and protest without breaking 10 laws in the process.

You can have your thugs buddy.

You are purely blaming Anonymous. You previously stated that you just utterly hate Anonymous no matter what. We're done here.

I said that Anon had no reason to go after Sony, and that Sony only started blaming Anon once they got the bill for what happened. Before that, Sony was in agreement that Anon didn't do it.

So, as I said: We're done here. Go ahead and blindly froth at Anonymous. Because that totally gets things done, and totally shows how evil they are. Enjoy trying to prove how a bunch of hackers are affiliated with an anonymous, amorphous entity that prides itself in being literally anybody.

Next you'll be cheering on the Patriot Act or something.

Clipclop:

HankMan:

Clipclop:

To bad you can't "stop" anon when they have you in their sights. I'm sure plenty of people wished they could turn them off, eh?

Best way to turn of Anonymous? Don't be an asshole in the first place.

You don't have to be an asshole to get tagged, you just have to do something that rubs them the wrong way.

We now just went back full circle into the fact that they are nothing but bullies. Its like being on a playground and hoping you don't get the attention of the abnormally large jock 5th graders, the main difference here is that there are no teachers to call them off, you have the full force of socially stunted man babies doing all they can to tear you down.

Just wanted to say, that to an extent, bullies are actually a good thing. Nothing creates quite like conflict. If you unable to get around the conflict, well, that's just life. It's unfair, and it's survival of the fittest working. In this case, what makes Anonymous 'the fittest' are their organization methods, techniques and skills, and sheer size. It let's them do what they want. Don't mean to sound like an ass, but that's just how the world works.

And besides, getting trolled is just commonplace on the net now. Don't feed the trolls, and don't be trollbait. If you find yourself coming under severe harassment, chances are, in some shape or fashion, you were being such an asshole enough that you became infamous enough so that your face or info becomes well-known on certain image boards or websites. The guy who calls someone an idiot doesn't make it to there. It often takes a special kind of person to make it there. People who either do incredible good, or horribly bad. Sometimes something so bad it's good, and vice versa.

As someone who frequents those websites and studies the 'culture' A LOT, but never acts with it, perhaps I have a bit of insight.

Sudenak:
You are purely blaming Anonymous. You previously stated that you just utterly hate Anonymous no matter what. We're done here.

If you want a different perspective, I'm simply disappointed.

Anonymous started out claiming some kind of noble intent, but that got lost a long time ago somewhere along the way.

I'm not sure I was ever ideologically in their camp, but their post-Scientology actions have poisoned me against the group pretty effectively.

Sudenak:
I said that Anon had no reason to go after Sony, and that Sony only started blaming Anon once they got the bill for what happened. Before that, Sony was in agreement that Anon didn't do it.

As much as it pains me, to admit it, you have a point, there's a possibility that Anonymous did take down PSN, but that seems kinda unlikely at this point.

It is most likely that, in this case, they were implicated as scapegoats by some third party. I'm not excusing or even defending the organization, just that this may be the one time they genuinely didn't do it.

Sudenak:
So, as I said: We're done here. Go ahead and blindly froth at Anonymous. Because that totally gets things done, and totally shows how evil they are. Enjoy trying to prove how a bunch of hackers are affiliated with an anonymous, amorphous entity that prides itself in being literally anybody.

As much as I want to snark, that really is the problem with Anonymous: It continues to claim it can be "literally anybody", but it's not. It is, or was, a fairly coherent cabal pretending to be non-existent. On one hand it's laudable for just how balls out insane it is to say that in the first place. But, it has left them in the position where they have no way to effectively control what they did or did not do. They used kids as a disposable smokescreen for their activities, and whether they were some kind of internet freedom fighters, electronic terrorists, or just trolls, their inability to control what was or was not a part of their operations lead them to where they are now, blamed for things they arguably did not do, while engaging in activities that are guaranteed to get them sent up a creek.

Clipclop observed that some of them are guilty of crimes that carry a 25 year sentence, and in that he is sadly mistaken. Some of the actions Anon members have engaged in are capital crimes.

Sudenak:
Next you'll be cheering on the Patriot Act or something.

Yay, being able to think for myself is hard and I approve any law that removes my ability to think for my self with an icepick. :D :p

In all fairness I probably could write something in defense of it... it wouldn't coincide with my personal opinions though...

Sudenak:

Clipclop:

tell me exactly how they attacked the problem? buy sending hundreds of thousands of customers forcefully offline? buy releasing the personal information of thousands of bottom wrung paper pushing employees trying to earn their 9 to 5?? How did they do anything but catastrophically effect literally hundreds of thousands of poeple who had nothing to do with this to begin with? the "choice makers" in sony are all at the top, not at the bottom. They disrupted the jobs and gaming of a insane amount of innocent poeple to "make a point" they are going after firms who have utterly nothing to do with sony's gaming market now. Tell me what lesson was taught, and how this "eye opener" has done anything more than piss a scores of poeple off who had nothing to do with this in the first place?

they have no concern who they effect as long as they get out there message. No matter what the impact is, no matter the collateral damage, no matter who's effected.

And you wonder why poeple call them terrorists.

edit: And as if that wasn't enough, they do this well outside the boundaries of the law, doing some things that could land them over 25 years in the slammer. They aren't even brave protesters, they hide and do things from thousands of miles away, doing all they can to not get caught. at least in the 70's they had the balls to actually show up and protest without breaking 10 laws in the process.

You can have your thugs buddy.

You are purely blaming Anonymous. You previously stated that you just utterly hate Anonymous no matter what. We're done here.

I said that Anon had no reason to go after Sony, and that Sony only started blaming Anon once they got the bill for what happened. Before that, Sony was in agreement that Anon didn't do it.

So, as I said: We're done here. Go ahead and blindly froth at Anonymous. Because that totally gets things done, and totally shows how evil they are. Enjoy trying to prove how a bunch of hackers are affiliated with an anonymous, amorphous entity that prides itself in being literally anybody.

Next you'll be cheering on the Patriot Act or something.

That's a real sweet 180 you just pulled buddy. In you last post you applauded everything they did. [anonymous or lack there of} which i completely answered to. You didn't bother to answer a single one of my questions and completely dodge the issue. You didn't tell me how these baseless attacks on innocent parties is helping anybody. or how they are completely attacking the wrong poeple who can't change a thing. You didn't answer how they don't care who they effect or how as long as they get their point across. You didn't answer how knocking out hundreds of thousands of paying customers across the globe was for their benefit. You didn't answer a single one of my points. You didn't answer how releasing the information of basic paper pushers and little man grunt workers who's only victim was getting a low paying job at sony had anything to do with the big guys at the top who make all the rules. You didn't answer how anonymous {or lack there of} get to be "heros" for having total disregard for any type of law and go out of their way to do some of the most illegal things imaginable for all the wrong reasons. All you did was blindly praise them selfishly for their beyond baseless and continued attacks on whoever they want unchecked for "free speech" and that otehr hypocritical dribble.

You just decided to state simply I'm blaming the wrong person and leave.

you're right, we are done. Its obvoius you don't have anything to say.

Clipclop:
You just decided to state simply I'm blaming the wrong person and leave.

To be fair, he may have a point on the PSN outage. Actually doing that would have been stupid even by Anonymous standards... and there's a phrase I never thought I'd type.

We are talking about people dumb enough to formally declare war on their own governments and allies of their respective governments. For Americans that's a treason related charge (declaring war on an ally), for Brits that is treason. And at the end of the day these are charges that can still get oneself executed, even in the developed world. What compounds this in stupidity and insanity is they did this intentionally to manipulate said governments.

Anonymous and more recently LulzSec have demonstrated an absolutely mind-boggling failure to understand how the law works, and been doing everything in their power to alienate as many people (outside of their 11-22 demographic) as possible.

So when I say this is stupid by their standards, my brain threatens to collapse into some kind of singularity state and eat my face... or sanity... either way.

That said... I wouldn't really be surprised if it had been them, but that isn't the most likely explanation.

EDIT: Inglip has declared: "Regime exerma"

LogicNProportion:
Just wanted to say, that to an extent, bullies are actually a good thing. Nothing creates quite like conflict. If you unable to get around the conflict, well, that's just life. It's unfair, and it's survival of the fittest working. In this case, what makes Anonymous 'the fittest' are their organization methods, techniques and skills, and sheer size. It let's them do what they want. Don't mean to sound like an ass, but that's just how the world works.

No, that's a theory to how the world works. What you're describing is evolution through lord of the flies reruns. Or, to be more fair to your intention, forced evolution. The theory holds that you break things... people, stuff, whatever, through conflict. Those that survive come back stronger, those that don't, well, "survival of the fittest," right?

The problem with this are; first, it's incredibly destructive, long term, to everyone involved, second, people don't really come back stronger from perpetual conflict, they wear down, and eventually break. Some individuals lash out with substantial force, but in the long run people are weakened by perpetual conflict, not strengthened by them.

Finally, none of this is the behavior of a bully. A bully is someone who intentionally seeks out individuals (or in this case other groups) that cannot defend itself. It then lords that over it's victim while humiliating them. Bullies tend to seek out the kind of person who won't turn on them, and tend to back off when they do.

It does not have an upside. Even individuals who retaliate don't do so from some inner strength, not really, they lash out in response to their own breakdown, and recovery is a long painful process if it ever occurs.

LogicNProportion:
And besides, getting trolled is just commonplace on the net now. Don't feed the trolls, and don't be trollbait. If you find yourself coming under severe harassment, chances are, in some shape or fashion, you were being such an asshole enough that you became infamous enough so that your face or info becomes well-known on certain image boards or websites. The guy who calls someone an idiot doesn't make it to there. It often takes a special kind of person to make it there. People who either do incredible good, or horribly bad. Sometimes something so bad it's good, and vice versa.

Here you're assuming something critical. You're assuming that Anonymous is working off a coherent ideology for trolling, but they really aren't. They're bullying people and then hopping onto the next victim. And while no one liked Scientology, so they were fair game, this has become about harming random passers by who weren't being assholes in any way shape or form, simply because some little shit decided to piss on everyone they perceived as being incapable of defending themselves.

For instance the LulzSec Sony hack that resulted in a lot of users having their names, passwords, phone numbers, addresses, and email posted. These aren't people who were being assholes. They weren't being trollbait. These were people who were, by in large elderly citizens, and their information was published in retaliation for something they had no part in.

Now you can hide behind some philosophy of forced evolution, but in a case like this, there's no upside, not for these people at any rate. Just victimization.

LogicNProportion:
As someone who frequents those websites and studies the 'culture' A LOT, but never acts with it, perhaps I have a bit of insight.

Perhaps. But, these flaws are built into their society, so it's not like their aware of this themselves.

Anon just do things, just so happens some can be positive or negative depending on who you are. One persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter. Freedom of speech doesnt exist at all. An those that fight for it only end up invalidating anothers persons freedoms anyway. My freedom to call you a cunt should be allowed, but also its your freedom to confront me on it. But you confronting me impedes my freedom to say what i want? Yeah, its murky.

But if someone hacked and got hold of anon 'members' addresses, phone numbers and bank details and posted them on the net and we all harrased them. I am sure they wouldnt say "well done, we are happy with that as we respect your freedom to hack and embarass us". Like spoilt, ignorant brats all they care about it themselves and what they think is right....in their eyes. No one elses opinions matter. An yes some people they target i agree with like the animal abusing guy or people that take pleasure in sending abuse to a dead childs parents on facebook, they are also they same people that would post crap on vunerable peoples pages and spam sick vids to people for fun.

For good or bad, they just are. They are kids that enjoy smashing windows and scratching cars, but as adults would bitch when the same things happen to them.

I find hating Anonymous pretty pointless.

Its not an actual organization, nor political view, nor person for the very least.

More of an realisation, that people with almost nothing in common can unite under atleast one common interest to affect or change things.

You can disagree with it, sure. Thats part of its nature.

I think i've had just about enough of the topic of this thread and i think it would be best if it was just locked since the topic is going nowhere.

Shadow-Phoenix:
I think i've had just about enough of the topic of this thread and i think it would be best if it was just locked since the topic is going nowhere.

No offense, but your not even a long time poster. A lot of points have been made and raised in this thread and its gone actually everywhere over the course of these past 3 days. I'm actually encouraged that a lot of posters of this community actually challenge the "anonymous way" and speak up about it. Instead of just falling in line and fearing the backlash.

Just because some random comes in tired of the subject matter doesn't mean it should be locked. If a high ranking member of this community gave the same view point I'm sure people would be more inclined to care .With all do respect, who exactly are you to say when and where a topic is done? You haven't even posted a single thing in it, which means the only way you can be "tired" of it is continually coming in here and reading it. You could just as easily not come in here and look at it if you don't like it.

No offense but it makes you sound arrogant.

Clipclop:

Shadow-Phoenix:
I think i've had just about enough of the topic of this thread and i think it would be best if it was just locked since the topic is going nowhere.

No offense, but your not even a long time poster. A lot of points have been made and raised in this thread and its gone actually everywhere over the course of these past 3 days. I'm actually encouraged that a lot of posters of this community actually challenge the "anonymous way" and speak up about it. Instead of just falling in line and fearing the backlash.

Just because some random comes in tired of the subject matter doesn't mean it should be locked. If a high ranking member of this community gave the same view point I'm sure people would be more inclined to care .With all do respect, who exactly are you to say when and where a topic is done? You haven't even posted a single thing in it, which means the only way you can be "tired" of it is continually coming in here and reading it. You could just as easily not come in here and look at it if you don't like it.

No offense but it makes you sound arrogant.

I've been reading the topic for the past few days myself and i've seen your posts and quite frankly i don't care either way, but i've got 399 posts while you have 92 and who are you to tell me i'm not a long time poster along with the fact you are very one sided and you know "you could also easily not come here and reply to my post".

Shadow-Phoenix:

Clipclop:

Shadow-Phoenix:
I think i've had just about enough of the topic of this thread and i think it would be best if it was just locked since the topic is going nowhere.

No offense, but your not even a long time poster. A lot of points have been made and raised in this thread and its gone actually everywhere over the course of these past 3 days. I'm actually encouraged that a lot of posters of this community actually challenge the "anonymous way" and speak up about it. Instead of just falling in line and fearing the backlash.

Just because some random comes in tired of the subject matter doesn't mean it should be locked. If a high ranking member of this community gave the same view point I'm sure people would be more inclined to care .With all do respect, who exactly are you to say when and where a topic is done? You haven't even posted a single thing in it, which means the only way you can be "tired" of it is continually coming in here and reading it. You could just as easily not come in here and look at it if you don't like it.

No offense but it makes you sound arrogant.

I've been reading the topic for the past few days myself and i've seen your posts and quite frankly i don't care either way, but i've got 399 posts while you have 92 and who are you to tell me i'm not a long time poster along with the fact you are very one sided and you know "you could also easily not come here and reply to my post".

Can I has cookie? To be fair, this is a subject where the lines are pretty clearly drawn. That said, there are some pretty entertaining and or interesting points coming up in a number of posts, so saying this thread should be hauled out behind the woodshed does strike me as somewhat premature.

Starke:

Sudenak:
You are purely blaming Anonymous. You previously stated that you just utterly hate Anonymous no matter what. We're done here.

If you want a different perspective, I'm simply disappointed.

Anonymous started out claiming some kind of noble intent, but that got lost a long time ago somewhere along the way.

I'm not sure I was ever ideologically in their camp, but their post-Scientology actions have poisoned me against the group pretty effectively.

Sudenak:
I said that Anon had no reason to go after Sony, and that Sony only started blaming Anon once they got the bill for what happened. Before that, Sony was in agreement that Anon didn't do it.

As much as it pains me, to admit it, you have a point, there's a possibility that Anonymous did take down PSN, but that seems kinda unlikely at this point.

It is most likely that, in this case, they were implicated as scapegoats by some third party. I'm not excusing or even defending the organization, just that this may be the one time they genuinely didn't do it.

Sudenak:
So, as I said: We're done here. Go ahead and blindly froth at Anonymous. Because that totally gets things done, and totally shows how evil they are. Enjoy trying to prove how a bunch of hackers are affiliated with an anonymous, amorphous entity that prides itself in being literally anybody.

As much as I want to snark, that really is the problem with Anonymous: It continues to claim it can be "literally anybody", but it's not. It is, or was, a fairly coherent cabal pretending to be non-existent. On one hand it's laudable for just how balls out insane it is to say that in the first place. But, it has left them in the position where they have no way to effectively control what they did or did not do. They used kids as a disposable smokescreen for their activities, and whether they were some kind of internet freedom fighters, electronic terrorists, or just trolls, their inability to control what was or was not a part of their operations lead them to where they are now, blamed for things they arguably did not do, while engaging in activities that are guaranteed to get them sent up a creek.

Clipclop observed that some of them are guilty of crimes that carry a 25 year sentence, and in that he is sadly mistaken. Some of the actions Anon members have engaged in are capital crimes.

Sudenak:
Next you'll be cheering on the Patriot Act or something.

Yay, being able to think for myself is hard and I approve any law that removes my ability to think for my self with an icepick. :D :p

In all fairness I probably could write something in defense of it... it wouldn't coincide with my personal opinions though...

Alright, I had a nice long post about what Anonymous is on page... 3 or 4, I forget.

Either way, Anonymous did NOT start out claiming noble intent. The original intent of Anonymous was always "For the Lulz". The "noble" side of Anon came about after Operation Chanology/Project Chanology.

Also, interestingly enough, there are certain core groups within "Anonymous", groups that know each other. Yet, what I find hilarious is that just because its easy to tell that, that instantly "Anonymous" should all of a sudden NOT be "Anonymous" anymore. A group of people who were already friends all join the Anonymous mob, and have ideas that the mob takes up. They do this multiple times through carefully crafting their ideas and posts so that the mob will take up their cause. This gives them the ability to direct the mob toward their goals. All of a sudden, these people are the "CORE LEADERZ OF ANONYMOUS!", which for some reason, means "Anonymous" has a core leadership? Give it a rest, the only reason Anonymous seems coherent is because once the mob takes up a cause, it rushes forward blindly and makes sure that the cause is filled with hilarity. Usually because the results will ENSURE everyone gets lulz, whether or not the cause is righteous or not doesn't matter. And at any time, the mob can decide they don't want to take up the cause.

Anonymous does not want to control the actions of Anonymous. Some "spokesanons" like to try to make sure that "Anonymous" doesn't get blamed for shit they didn't do, and will say "Anonymous did it" or "Anonymous didn't do it", but as has been noted, Anonymous can be literally anyone. The main hackers that tend to start up certain operations and follow specific ideals may not have done it, but that doesn't matter. Anonymous shouldn't be considered a group. It's a blanket term for anyone who doesn't want their identity revealed. And if you don't want your identity revealed... Why not hide behind the wall of Anon?

Shadow-Phoenix:

Clipclop:

Shadow-Phoenix:
I think i've had just about enough of the topic of this thread and i think it would be best if it was just locked since the topic is going nowhere.

No offense, but your not even a long time poster. A lot of points have been made and raised in this thread and its gone actually everywhere over the course of these past 3 days. I'm actually encouraged that a lot of posters of this community actually challenge the "anonymous way" and speak up about it. Instead of just falling in line and fearing the backlash.

Just because some random comes in tired of the subject matter doesn't mean it should be locked. If a high ranking member of this community gave the same view point I'm sure people would be more inclined to care .With all do respect, who exactly are you to say when and where a topic is done? You haven't even posted a single thing in it, which means the only way you can be "tired" of it is continually coming in here and reading it. You could just as easily not come in here and look at it if you don't like it.

No offense but it makes you sound arrogant.

I've been reading the topic for the past few days myself and i've seen your posts and quite frankly i don't care either way, but i've got 399 posts while you have 92 and who are you to tell me i'm not a long time poster along with the fact you are very one sided and you know "you could also easily not come here and reply to my post".

This is all made irrelevant by the fact that I'm not announcing "the thread should be closed because I'm tired of it" I've been participating in this thread and many other across this website, I haven't just come out of left field and declared "welp, i'm tired of all of this, close the damn thread!"

Also, how is me being one sided have anything to do with your remark? I'm one sided about the conversation at hand, I've given my opinions freely to others, if you have a opinion, than by all means lets here it. It would be much less rude than you acting like some sorta important king that should have threads locked because he says so.

if you have something to add to the topic at hand thats wonderful, otherwise its insanity to close a thread for no reason other than your random whims.

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