Unskippable: Star Wars The Old Republic

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Coming eventually, Cowboys vs. Stormtroopers

Notice how Han Marsden yelled "look out" which focussed the troopers attention on him and they were then blown up from the exact direction they were originally facing. Nice work Han Marsden.

I'm with you on the lightsabres. One is just fine thanks.

tehweave:

Has ANYTHING good come out of Star Wars since the original trilogy?

Yes, Lego Star Wars was awesome.

pwnsore:

tehweave:

Has ANYTHING good come out of Star Wars since the original trilogy?

Yes, Lego Star Wars was awesome.

Don't forget the Plinkett reviews. Those alone justify the existence of the entire prequel saga.

pwnsore:

tehweave:

Has ANYTHING good come out of Star Wars since the original trilogy?

Yes, Lego Star Wars was awesome.

Alright, thus far I've got the following list:

Original Trilogy
KOTOR

I'll hold up a vote. Who thinks Lego Star Wars should be added to the "GOOD" star wars list and who thinks it should be added to the "BAD" star wars list?

thenumberthirteen:

Hagi:

Kinguendo:

He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!

You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?

Ooh! Force Burned! :)

OT: I really like the Old Republic cinematic stuff. Far better than the Clone Wars that's been made. This episode was, however, amazingly funny.

No, not at all... all you are doing here is perpetuating a lie. I responded to this before any other comment because your ignorance annoys me.

Hagi:

Kinguendo:

hawk533:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.

He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!

You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?

Wrong, Revan created it. That means the idea was actually about 300 years BEFORE the events in this video.

Lord of Torment:

Kinguendo:

hawk533:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.

He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!

Yeah no, Darth Bane set up the Rule of two, this is long before him there are tons of sith running about in this setting.

Wrong, Darth Bane learned of it from a Sith Holocron left behind by Revan because Revan created it. There are many Sith running around... However they arent all Sith Lords, now are they?!

artanis_neravar:

Kinguendo:

hawk533:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.

He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!

Indeed, people also seem to neglect, or not know, that lightsabers can have an intensity control on them, so training lightsabers, just provide a minor burning sensation on contact

Yes, and thanks for stepping in back there... I wasnt able to get to a computer in time for a speedy enough reply to correct them on their mistakes. Thanks for pointing out that Bane got the Rule of Two from Revan. Much appreciated.

EDIT: And yeah, if Lightsabers didnt have intesity controls you would think the Jedis were barbarians as you see them giving children Lightsabres!

tehweave:

Kinguendo:

tehweave:
Dear god... That intro was EXACTLY that one scene from Episode 4.

Has ANYTHING good come out of Star Wars since the original trilogy?

HEATHEN!

KOTOR is the greatest Star Wars story ever told! The original trilogy is good and all that but the story of Revan is better in every way!

Good! Okay then, KOTOR! So far, the list includes:

A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Knights of the Old Republic

Now, are there any other good Star Wars anythings? Stories, movies, games? Because there are tons of each, but are there any good ones beyond the list above?

There are quite a few people who like the Jedi Academy games... and Force unleashed. As well as quite a lot of decent comic book series.

Lord of Torment:

Actually the Rule of 2 came from Darth Revan Darth Bane just reused it for his era, so the Rule of 2 originates before this game

"The holocron belonged to the ancient Sith Lord Darth Revan, who was the first to realize the flawed logic of training more than one apprentice. Through the gatekeeper of his holocron, Revan taught Bane how any master that trained multiple apprentices was a fool. Bane learned from Revan's holocron that, in times past, the students would seek to destroy their master and claim the title. By joining forces and combining their lesser powers, they would attack and defeat their master."

Revan did not start or put into practice the rule of two, he was smart enough to see the flaw in the system yes, but he only did it to train one apprentice at a time, to prevent them from teaming up. It was Darth Bane who broke the Sith and remade it into the ones who follow the rule of two.

Erm, its obvious that Revan did. He only ever had one apprentice as Darth Revan and that was Malak.

was it really $2'000'000! it was ok but come on.

Kinguendo:

Hagi:

Kinguendo:

He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!

You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?

Wrong, Revan created it. That means the idea was actually about 300 years BEFORE the events in this video.

Darth Revan: A master should only train a single apprentice at a time, because it is inevitable that his apprentices will gang up on him even though individually they weren't yet strong enough to rival the original master. Meaning that with every cycle the masters would become weaker.

Darth Bane & the Rule of Two: There should only be 2 Sith period. One Master, one apprentice. Not just one apprentice per master, but only 2 Sith in the entire universe. That's the rule of two. "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

I mean Revan restarted the Sith Academy on Korriban.... how does that match with the Rule of Two?

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two. He was inspired by Darth Revan. Just like planes were inspired by birds, doesn't mean planes are birds....

drosalion:

Mikodite:

drosalion:

Thats kinda the whole point of this game.. bioware want to change the way people think about MMOs by bringing story to it.

Why shouldnt you be able to care about those things purely caus of the genre of the game?

Have you noticed that every MMORPG has some backstory or plot running in the background? It's sad, really, someone had to write all that only for the average player to ignore it, as knowledge of the backstory has no effect on the game whatsoever.

Unless the 'plotline' isn't simply flavour text to go with your fetch quest, Bioware is wasting their time.

Yeh.. and bioware are trying to change that, by delivering the story not via a textbox but by cinematic cutscenes, and giving you actual choices that can change things in the game quite dramatically as opposed to just the choice of 'doing' or 'not doing' the quest.

Quite simply - they're bringing the RPG back into the MMORPG, and frankly i cant wait for my mmo to actually start having some meaning and purpose. I just cant really see why people seem to be so against a genuine attempt to remove grind and increase immersion by giving all the things you do in an mmo purpose.. its like people WANT their mmo to be a dull borefest? But each to their own i guess.

You have no idea how badly I want you to be right.

The shit with the cutscenes and the dialogue choices sounds awesome on paper... then you realize that its not a single-player rpg, and you will have too many players skipping the cutscenes and mashing through the dialogue shit to get to the quest for they just want to get their numbers higher than all the numbers in the land and own everyone. I remember Guild Wars had cutscenes in it... and I remember most players opting to skip them.

You want the plotline to matter to the average player? Make the bloody thing player-generated. Have us celebrate the victory of Ray_the_Jedi who lead his squadmates to slaughter some Sith scum! Or how Nibi-Tibi has taken over Coresaunt and his first priority is to legalize death-sticks. Fuck, I would totally go down for taking on Lord_Boner of the Sith if it meant peaces in the galaxy for a few months in server.

Are they planning to do that? Planning politic systems where a player could run for senate, or be the hutt? Territory control between 'factions' that amount to whether the innocent get slaughtered or not, which changes the game world depending on who won? Will I see player names in the game's canon?

Someone accused me of not doing my homework. Tell me, are they doing that?

MelasZepheos:

Then again, it's Star Wars, all of the lightsaber fights look cool, the gamble is whether the story around them will be any good, and Han Solo, Cowboy edition just isn't doing it for me. However, the concept of having a Republic Trooper, a Smuggler, and a Jedi Apprentice who just lost her master all on one ship is one of the better beginnings for a SW story I've seen in a while.

I'd totally give them extra points for that as well...except they didn't do it for any story consideration, but purely to highlight the three major good guy factions/careers, or whatever they call em, that players can choose. So not only are they characters we shouldn't care about and will never play, but they're also marketing vehicles :D

[EDIT] and the reply above mine is so incredibly right, Mikodite should start consulting for MMO developers. Seriously, the amount of naivete I see in MMO developers regarding their user base and their willingness to sit through Lore dumps is flat out depressing. No, MMO developer, spending millions of dollars on awesome cutscenes will not make your game any different or more special than any other MMO. Regardless of how cool the characters are or how well directed the scene is. All MMO players want to do is level up, they don't care. Please get over it.

Really, no joke about the fact that they let Han Solo keep his guns. I am not happy.

A bit over the top, are we?
While I like the general look of it, some things seem a little odd. Of course Han Marston the space cowboy or the multi-lightsaber fight. But also little things like ship designs.
Now don't get me wrong, that Sith Star Destroyer thing looks great, I just think it looks a bit too much like... y'know... a Star Destroyer.

I mean what's wrong with using established ships like Interdictors?

Hagi:

Kinguendo:

Hagi:

You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?

Wrong, Revan created it. That means the idea was actually about 300 years BEFORE the events in this video.

Darth Revan: A master should only train a single apprentice at a time, because it is inevitable that his apprentices will gang up on him even though individually they weren't yet strong enough to rival the original master. Meaning that with every cycle the masters would become weaker.

Darth Bane & the Rule of Two: There should only be 2 Sith period. One Master, one apprentice. Not just one apprentice per master, but only 2 Sith in the entire universe. That's the rule of two. "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

I mean Revan restarted the Sith Academy on Korriban.... how does that match with the Rule of Two?

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two. He was inspired by Darth Revan. Just like planes were inspired by birds, doesn't mean planes are birds....

I was going to say that but it seems like the Force was stronger in you.

Also, you'd think in a Sith Empire with probably a few hundret Sith not everyone would listen to Revan's ideas.

Kinguendo:
EDIT: And yeah, if Lightsabers didnt have intesity controls you would think the Jedis were barbarians as you see them giving children Lightsabres!

Only for training purposes. And not proper ones anyway.

Mikodite:

drosalion:

Mikodite:

Have you noticed that every MMORPG has some backstory or plot running in the background? It's sad, really, someone had to write all that only for the average player to ignore it, as knowledge of the backstory has no effect on the game whatsoever.

Unless the 'plotline' isn't simply flavour text to go with your fetch quest, Bioware is wasting their time.

Yeh.. and bioware are trying to change that, by delivering the story not via a textbox but by cinematic cutscenes, and giving you actual choices that can change things in the game quite dramatically as opposed to just the choice of 'doing' or 'not doing' the quest.

Quite simply - they're bringing the RPG back into the MMORPG, and frankly i cant wait for my mmo to actually start having some meaning and purpose. I just cant really see why people seem to be so against a genuine attempt to remove grind and increase immersion by giving all the things you do in an mmo purpose.. its like people WANT their mmo to be a dull borefest? But each to their own i guess.

You have no idea how badly I want you to be right.

The shit with the cutscenes and the dialogue choices sounds awesome on paper... then you realize that its not a single-player rpg, and you will have too many players skipping the cutscenes and mashing through the dialogue shit to get to the quest for they just want to get their numbers higher than all the numbers in the land and own everyone. I remember Guild Wars had cutscenes in it... and I remember most players opting to skip them.

You want the plotline to matter to the average player? Make the bloody thing player-generated. Have us celebrate the victory of Ray_the_Jedi who lead his squadmates to slaughter some Sith scum! Or how Nibi-Tibi has taken over Coresaunt and his first priority is to legalize death-sticks. Fuck, I would totally go down for taking on Lord_Boner of the Sith if it meant peaces in the galaxy for a few months in server.

Are they planning to do that? Planning politic systems where a player could run for senate, or be the hutt? Territory control between 'factions' that amount to whether the innocent get slaughtered or not, which changes the game world depending on who won? Will I see player names in the game's canon?

Someone accused me of not doing my homework. Tell me, are they doing that?

People enjoy it in a single player RPG, they can learn to enjoy it in a multiplayer MMO. We simply have no way of knowing whether or not it will be successful and we're scared of it because its something completely foreign to what we're used to. They sound awesome on paper because they have great potential to be awesome, and im not saying they definitely will work or it wont be a massive flop but theres no reason it cant work - we just need to give it a chance instead of outright dismissing it before the game is even released.

As for ur suggestions regarding a more sandboxey game, im sure they would appeal to some people but for me they sound completely uninteresting and i personally wouldnt enjoy them (regarding your specific examples, no, they're not doing those things). I do however enjoy a great bioware RPG and there are millions of other people who would agree with me as shown by the success of KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and all of their earlier games. A bioware RPG that i can play with thousands of other people in a persistant MMO world? Where do i put my credit card details..

I'm not saying TOR will be the best game ever, nor that it wont be awful, but we should atleast give it a chance. Saying it will fail when we have no basis for it or any previous game to compare it to is just stupid and childish (the 'cinematic cutscenes' in guild wars were absolutely nothing like what is in TOR, and yes ive played it). I'm HOPING for the best for TOR, because I think you and I would both agree that if it DOES work it will be amazing (you said on paper it sounds great, and theres a reason for that). Whether or not it WILL work neither of us can say right now with any more certainty beyond an outright guess.

SPACE MARSTON AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!! The sith are DOOMED.

endplanets:
Really, no joke about the fact that they let Han Solo keep his guns. I am not happy.

To be fair, his hands were cuffed when the Sith attacked. All they had to do was uncuff them.

beniki:
Well, it's starting to look like a mess. I was originally enthusiastic about this game. The KOTOR universe was Star Wars with it's own style, and genuinely looked like an earlier era in the Star Wars universe. But now they're trying to shoe horn in as many different styles as they can... leading to a very oriental jedi standing next to a space cowboy. I know they always had this, but if you put Han Solo and Luke Skywalker together, they still look like they share a world, even though their costume designs harken back to a cowboy and martial arts gi. Layering on the clone wars art style to the already established, more realistic, KoTOR style makes the transition to MMO more awkward. To put it simply, it doesn't look how people remember it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's an odd choice when you're already making a radically different type of game.

Fair enough. Personally, I like their character designs so far, but to each his own.

They're also cutting corners in terms of game design. Although it looks like they have 8 classes, it's fairly clear that they simply have copies for both sides.

I noticed that, though I'm hoping that's not the whole story. Bounty hunter and Trooper may both be gadget oriented and heavily armored, but it does appear that they at least have different gadgets that fit their respective themes. Same for imperial agent and smuggler. I have quite a lot of hope left in me that these will be distinctive classes, even if they share some things in common.

Again, there's nothing wrong with this in an original game. But here, a title such as Sith or Bounty Hunter already carries a unique character, which can't simply be overlaid onto another title with different animations. To put it simply again; a passionate Sith will have the same play style as a serene Jedi. A cunning bounty hunter will share mechanics with a meat head trooper. And as an aside... isn't it a little odd that the Sith, a militaristic organisation with their own distinctive looking soldiers does not, in fact, have a soldier class? This was done because the 'Republic Trooper' was popularised in the Clone Wars saga, but is out of place since they were a new concept then, and did not exist before Palpatine created them. In fact, it wouldn't be too far a stretch to imagine them being a Sith idea, which he sought to resurrect. Again, an odd choice, at odds with the established universe.

I never actually saw Clone Wars. Heard it was awful. I suppose I can see your concern here, but I think it seems a bit unfair. Presumably both the Sith and the Republic have troopers, but having a trooper class for both sides seems to me that it exacerbates the problem of repetition between the classes. And the Bounty Hunter looks like he might be pretty distinct from the trooper... and finally, I'm hoping the trooper is more than a meathead. He'd be a pretty boring protagonist otherwise.

And you're right. It is interesting that they're exploring the other parts of the Star Wars universe, other than the Sith and Jedi. But they're crippling the great developments of the KoTOR story to do it. In KoTOR they were making Sith and Jedi more morally ambiguous, and thus, were becoming a lot more interesting. But as that cinematic shows, they're rushing back to the Sith bad, Jedi good mentality.

Yeah, that certainly seems true in the trailer, and I think in the lore, it's definitely true that the upper echelons of the sith are pretty hardcore evil. But that makes sense. This is the Sith Empire that Revan tried to prepare the galaxy for. One would expect them to be evil. I'd only be disappointed if player character sith didn't have the option to choose their own moral path. I'm optimistic that this will be well implemented.

This is leading to some fairly silly ideas, such as Smugglers being good guys. Han Solo was a good guy, it's true, and also a smuggler. But he's an exception, which made him interesting. Putting the smuggler on the 'good side' they're saying that smuggling, an illegal activity, is morally correct.

I'm not sure they're saying that any more than they're saying that bounty hunting is evil. The smuggler wants a society where he can slip between the cracks and violate the law with relatively minor consequences. That isn't the Sith Empire. Bounty Hunters, on the other hand, want to work for whoever pays them best. That *is* the Sith Empire. So these guys essentially fall onto one side of the conflict or the other not out of a devotion to a moral code but out of self interest.

I'm not saying I wont't play the game. I'm just saying that the vitriol people have against this game is that it looks like a mess of ideas, without a whole lot of real thought put into it. Or at least any thought beyond, 'It was in the movies/games/books let's copy and paste'.

Hope that clears it up for you :)

Fair enough. You've got some valid criticisms here, I think... though most of them are fairly speculative. I suppose the difference just comes down to our respective levels of optimism. Star Wars has been a lot more miss than hit lately, but Bioware still has some good will built up with me, particularly with this IP. I was a bit disappointed with Dragon Age 2, but mainly because of the asset reuse. If there's one thing this game won't have, it's a lack of content.

Grand_Marquis:
[EDIT] and the reply above mine is so incredibly right, Mikodite should start consulting for MMO developers. Seriously, the amount of naivete I see in MMO developers regarding their user base and their willingness to sit through Lore dumps is flat out depressing. No, MMO developer, spending millions of dollars on awesome cutscenes will not make your game any different or more special than any other MMO. Regardless of how cool the characters are or how well directed the scene is. All MMO players want to do is level up, they don't care. Please get over it.

I wouldn't go that far, I mean James Portnow I'm not. Though as an aspiring game developer with an interest in writing that has played MMOs in the past, it does break my heart that many of these games have a background-story section on their websites. Some soul had to take the time (and possibly get paid) to write that shit up only for it to go ignored. It also doesn't help that someone went into all the trouble to write up an overarching storyline about how the Bitch Queen or whatever needs to be destroyed going unnoticed because, lets face it, who reads the flavour text that goes with your quests?

drosalion:

Mikodite:

drosalion:

Yeh.. and bioware are trying to change that, by delivering the story not via a textbox but by cinematic cutscenes, and giving you actual choices that can change things in the game quite dramatically as opposed to just the choice of 'doing' or 'not doing' the quest.

Quite simply - they're bringing the RPG back into the MMORPG, and frankly i cant wait for my mmo to actually start having some meaning and purpose. I just cant really see why people seem to be so against a genuine attempt to remove grind and increase immersion by giving all the things you do in an mmo purpose.. its like people WANT their mmo to be a dull borefest? But each to their own i guess.

You have no idea how badly I want you to be right.

The shit with the cutscenes and the dialogue choices sounds awesome on paper... then you realize that its not a single-player rpg, and you will have too many players skipping the cutscenes and mashing through the dialogue shit to get to the quest for they just want to get their numbers higher than all the numbers in the land and own everyone. I remember Guild Wars had cutscenes in it... and I remember most players opting to skip them.

You want the plotline to matter to the average player? Make the bloody thing player-generated. Have us celebrate the victory of Ray_the_Jedi who lead his squadmates to slaughter some Sith scum! Or how Nibi-Tibi has taken over Coresaunt and his first priority is to legalize death-sticks. Fuck, I would totally go down for taking on Lord_Boner of the Sith if it meant peaces in the galaxy for a few months in server.

Are they planning to do that? Planning politic systems where a player could run for senate, or be the hutt? Territory control between 'factions' that amount to whether the innocent get slaughtered or not, which changes the game world depending on who won? Will I see player names in the game's canon?

Someone accused me of not doing my homework. Tell me, are they doing that?

People enjoy it in a single player RPG, they can learn to enjoy it in a multiplayer MMO. We simply have no way of knowing whether or not it will be successful and we're scared of it because its something completely foreign to what we're used to. They sound awesome on paper because they have great potential to be awesome, and im not saying they definitely will work or it wont be a massive flop but theres no reason it cant work - we just need to give it a chance instead of outright dismissing it before the game is even released.

As for ur suggestions regarding a more sandboxey game, im sure they would appeal to some people but for me they sound completely uninteresting and i personally wouldnt enjoy them (regarding your specific examples, no, they're not doing those things). I do however enjoy a great bioware RPG and there are millions of other people who would agree with me as shown by the success of KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and all of their earlier games. A bioware RPG that i can play with thousands of other people in a persistant MMO world? Where do i put my credit card details..

I'm not saying TOR will be the best game ever, nor that it wont be awful, but we should atleast give it a chance. Saying it will fail when we have no basis for it or any previous game to compare it to is just stupid and childish (the 'cinematic cutscenes' in guild wars were absolutely nothing like what is in TOR, and yes ive played it). I'm HOPING for the best for TOR, because I think you and I would both agree that if it DOES work it will be amazing (you said on paper it sounds great, and theres a reason for that). Whether or not it WILL work neither of us can say right now with any more certainty beyond an outright guess.

The big problem I have with your logic is your saying that mechanics that work fine for a choose-you-own adventure book will work in a pen-n-paper campaign. At heart, that is the real difference between a Bioware RPG like Mass Effect and something like World of Warcraft.

An overarcing storyline with pretty cutscenes and choices in how you interact with an NPC sounds like an awesome idea, really. It works for WRPGs, where your choices have an effect on the game world and that, but this only works in a single player game. In a multiplayer game, for starters, the story and choices are the same... for every god dam player, and many players are smart enough to figure out that while their individual choices affect their character's path through this overarching storyline, it affects jack shit about the game world as everyone else is given the same tree to follow. At best, it just affects their build.

I also guarantee you that we aren't going to bother caring about what the NPCs think of us. I've seen games use faction systems regarding NPC groups, but this only works in a single player game as NPC input matter exponentially more than in a multiplayer game where we are more worried about what other players think of us (as in many circumstances we need PCs to help us on Quests in an MMO, whereas in a single player game we get NPCs to help us.)

That's why I mentioned the sandbox system. I mean, to relate to a past example of the choose-you-own adventure book versus the pen-paper roleplay. The former its just you and the author, deciding what path to take in their book and hoping its a result you want. The latter involves multiple people being directed by a GM of sorts. The design philosophy must change to accommodate each setting.

Now, I want to see the RPG get put back into the MMORPG as badly as the next person (I miss Anathema Online for that reason) however, this is not the solution. I mean, I don't want to pay $5-$20 a month in subscription fees and waste bandwidth connecting to a server to play a single player game. So really, either a player-driven storyline or just admit that the game is a meat-grinder like any other MMORPG... as this is the case with pnp campaigns.

If you really want to see Bioware RPG mechanics, which work fine for Mass Effect and Dragon Age, in an MMORPG I dare to ask if you really want to be playing with other people. Cuz unless I'm missing something their a waste of time.

Course, this is at the end of the day my humble opinion. It might turn out that there was more to it than that and I would owe you an apology. Or I turn out to be right and I end up screaming "I called it!" Sadly, we would have to wait and see.

Super nerd question: What's the first symbol on the door at 2:16? I don't see it in the normal Aurebesh alphabet.

Okay maybe I was being a teeeny bit hyperbolic :p But still, the sad truth remains that *we* as observers can see the root of this problem while these MMO developers continue to flail about with an inadequate understanding of the genre's flaws.

Mikodite:

Course, this is at the end of the day my humble opinion. It might turn out that there was more to it than that and I would owe you an apology. Or I turn out to be right and I end up screaming "I called it!" Sadly, we would have to wait and see.

Of course that's a great side to bet on. If you win, you get the satisfaction of being right. And if you lose, you win, because we finally have a non-boring MMO.

What drosalion is missing here isn't that MMO stories suck and should be ignored by players, or that no MMO story should ever be bothered with by developers because the players who read them are an underrepresented minority. That's not what's being said here. What's being said is that current MMO stories are all written with - perhaps subconsciously - a single player game in mind. Current day MMOs, if we want to really be honest with ourselves, should be called Massively Singleplayer Online games. They're spaces where everyone plays a single player game together, sometimes even at the same time, while the REAL game is actually the metagame of players trying to one-up eachother's stats, gear, trinkets, play style, or guild cred. And from that perspective, Bioware's latest experiment in the genre is not a solution at all. There's still a narrative disconnect between the motivations of the players and the driving goals of the storyline. It might be a cool mechanic, but it's not going to fix any of the problems with these MPOs, because at the end of the day it's still an MPO; not an MMO.

And all I'm hearing is that one quote from Plinkett's Star Wars-reviews:

Lightsaber, Lightsabers, more lightsaber, lightsabers, lightsabers...

Enough with the fucking lightsabers!

Wuvlycuddles:
"yeah it's like a redshirt changing into a cardigan!"

I have no idea why but I LOVE that line.

Same here. It was hilarious XD

Sofus:
I don't understand why people are complaining. The cinematic is awesome, and far better than what we have seen in any other mmo as of yet. Yes Blizzard did a few, but they were honestly not all that great.

But yeah... lets all complain about both getting quality and quantity, we should (according to some people here) demand that every mmo ends up as star trek online... repetetive, boring, underdeveloped text based waste of time.

If BioWare manages to make this an interesting mmo, even giants such as Blizzard will be forced to add voiceovers in future mmo's.

And that would be a disaster. Do you know how much voice acting costs? It's easily one of the most expensive and time consuming parts of development.

GeorgW:
I was never that great on Star Wars canon, but a few things...
The Jedi did have lightning, and the sith had black light sabres, and then changed it to red. Not sure how far back this was though.
Also, how come the empire ships look exactly like they do later on? And I thought the Jedi only got clones after the second movie?
WTF is up with the continuity of this game???
Oh, and good episode! I just figured I should ask given that someone around here have to know.

The black lightsabers showed dandruff, so they swapped them for red.

I don't know where exactly the "more lightsabers!" trend came from. Star Wars used to be about more complex themes (pre 1998, I mean), but then it became all about the spectacle. This is a 12-year-old's idea of badassery; the most badass Jedi by far is still Obi-Wan, who on several occasions fought opponenets far more heavily armed than he was. ONE lightsaber, and the skill to use it, wins over some schmuck with a bunch of lightsabers - a "gaggle" of lightsabers, if you will.

Hagi:

Darth Revan: A master should only train a single apprentice at a time, because it is inevitable that his apprentices will gang up on him even though individually they weren't yet strong enough to rival the original master. Meaning that with every cycle the masters would become weaker.

Darth Bane & the Rule of Two: There should only be 2 Sith period. One Master, one apprentice. Not just one apprentice per master, but only 2 Sith in the entire universe. That's the rule of two. "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

I mean Revan restarted the Sith Academy on Korriban.... how does that match with the Rule of Two?

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two. He was inspired by Darth Revan. Just like planes were inspired by birds, doesn't mean planes are birds....

You lying little... how did you think you could lie to me and get away with it? You are intentionally leaving out important facts just to support your wrongness.

Here is an excerpt from the Sith Holocron from Revan to Bane:

"True power can come only to those who embrace the transformation. There can be no compromise. Mercy, compassion, loyalty: all these things will prevent you from claiming what is rightfully yours. Those who follow the dark side must cast aside these conceits. Those who do not-those who try to walk the path of moderation-will fail, dragged down by their own weakness. Those who accept the power of the dark side must also accept the challenge of holding on to it. By its very nature the dark side invites rivalry and strife. This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those working beneath them in concert. Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student."

- Directly from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

The Sith Academy trained Sith... not Masters and Apprentices! You dont even... your arguments are constructed to convince people who dont know anything about Star Wars!

Another quote from Revan to Bane:

"This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be. My time here is ended. Take what I have taught you and use it well."

- Directly from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

Quaxar:

Hagi:

Darth Revan: A master should only train a single apprentice at a time, because it is inevitable that his apprentices will gang up on him even though individually they weren't yet strong enough to rival the original master. Meaning that with every cycle the masters would become weaker.

Darth Bane & the Rule of Two: There should only be 2 Sith period. One Master, one apprentice. Not just one apprentice per master, but only 2 Sith in the entire universe. That's the rule of two. "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

I mean Revan restarted the Sith Academy on Korriban.... how does that match with the Rule of Two?

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two. He was inspired by Darth Revan. Just like planes were inspired by birds, doesn't mean planes are birds....

I was going to say that but it seems like the Force was stronger in you.

Also, you'd think in a Sith Empire with probably a few hundret Sith not everyone would listen to Revan's ideas.

Then you were going to be wrong... oh and what? Everyone would listen to Darth Banes ideas? You dont know what you are talking about.

Kinguendo:

Quaxar:

Hagi:

Darth Revan: A master should only train a single apprentice at a time, because it is inevitable that his apprentices will gang up on him even though individually they weren't yet strong enough to rival the original master. Meaning that with every cycle the masters would become weaker.

Darth Bane & the Rule of Two: There should only be 2 Sith period. One Master, one apprentice. Not just one apprentice per master, but only 2 Sith in the entire universe. That's the rule of two. "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

I mean Revan restarted the Sith Academy on Korriban.... how does that match with the Rule of Two?

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two. He was inspired by Darth Revan. Just like planes were inspired by birds, doesn't mean planes are birds....

I was going to say that but it seems like the Force was stronger in you.

Also, you'd think in a Sith Empire with probably a few hundret Sith not everyone would listen to Revan's ideas.

Then you were going to be wrong... oh and what? Everyone would listen to Darth Banes ideas? You dont know what you are talking about.

I was referring to the part with the Sith Academy. Read the link, it clearly states "force sensitive". So one could say it was more than one trainee per trainer.
Now I don't quite get the second part there because wtf Darth Bane?

Also, I kinda lost track of what actually started the discussion so I'm not going to respond to your previous post at all.

Kinguendo:
You lying little... how did you think you could lie to me and get away with it? You are intentionally leaving out important facts just to support your wrongness.

Here is an excerpt from the Sith Holocron from Revan to Bane:

"True power can come only to those who embrace the transformation. There can be no compromise. Mercy, compassion, loyalty: all these things will prevent you from claiming what is rightfully yours. Those who follow the dark side must cast aside these conceits. Those who do not-those who try to walk the path of moderation-will fail, dragged down by their own weakness. Those who accept the power of the dark side must also accept the challenge of holding on to it. By its very nature the dark side invites rivalry and strife. This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those working beneath them in concert. Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student."

- Directly from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

The Sith Academy trained Sith... not Masters and Apprentices! You dont even... your arguments are constructed to convince people who dont know anything about Star Wars!

Another quote from Revan to Bane:

"This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be. My time here is ended. Take what I have taught you and use it well."

- Directly from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

Calling me a liar doesn't make it so....

As I said, and your quotes support.

Darth Revan: "Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student."

The Rule of Two dictates "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it.".

So Darth Revan thinks the Sith should have a structure as follows:
- 1 Dark Lord of the Sith.
- Countless lesser masters who each tutor only a single student.

Darth Bane and the Rule of Two think the Sith should have a structure as follows:
- 1 Dark Lord of the Sith.
- 1 Apprentice.

The Rule of Two is directly against the Sith Academy, even if you don't call the students apprentices. The Rule of Two says only 2 Sith period. Doesn't matter if they're Sith masters, apprentices or water boys. Only 2 Sith total. End of story. That's the Rule of Two.

Darth Revan, as is obvious from the KotOR games, didn't create nor even abide by this rule. He had countless lesser Sith serving him. He did however lay the foundation of this rule by stating that there should be a single leader of the Sith and that each master should only have a single apprentice.

Darth Bane took this to the next level by stating that that single leader would be the only master and that he would have only a single apprentice. Thus meaning that there's only 2 Sith at all times. And that was the Rule of Two. Created by Darth Bane, 2000 years after Revan, by taking Revan's teachings to the next level.

And please, can we leave the personal insults out of this? There's no reason to call me a liar or to imply that I'm intentionally leaving out facts just to call you, a random poster on a random internet forum, wrong.

please just let us have the game.

Hagi:

Calling me a liar doesn't make it so....

As I said, and your quotes support.

Darth Revan: "Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student."

The Rule of Two dictates "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it.".

So Darth Revan thinks the Sith should have a structure as follows:
- 1 Dark Lord of the Sith.
- Countless lesser masters who each tutor only a single student.

Darth Bane and the Rule of Two think the Sith should have a structure as follows:
- 1 Dark Lord of the Sith.
- 1 Apprentice.

The Rule of Two is directly against the Sith Academy, even if you don't call the students apprentices. The Rule of Two says only 2 Sith period. Doesn't matter if they're Sith masters, apprentices or water boys. Only 2 Sith total. End of story. That's the Rule of Two.

Darth Revan, as is obvious from the KotOR games, didn't create nor even abide by this rule. He had countless lesser Sith serving him. He did however lay the foundation of this rule by stating that there should be a single leader of the Sith and that each master should only have a single apprentice.

Darth Bane took this to the next level by stating that that single leader would be the only master and that he would have only a single apprentice. Thus meaning that there's only 2 Sith at all times. And that was the Rule of Two. Created by Darth Bane, 2000 years after Revan, by taking Revan's teachings to the next level.

And please, can we leave the personal insults out of this? There's no reason to call me a liar or to imply that I'm intentionally leaving out facts just to call you, a random poster on a random internet forum, wrong.

No, calling you a liar doesnt make it so... you lying does.

Bane had more than one Apprentice, even his Apprentices had Apprentices... and there were other Sith throughout the entire time Bane was alive. Though they were being hunted... not by Bane, but by the Jedi.

Revan, on the other hand, had only 1 Apprentice. He trained other Sith as assassins and such BUT they werent Dark Lords. He was the ruler of the Sith, there is no denying this.

It was not created by BANE! He just instituted it as a rule that the Sith would abide by at that time period... Revan created it. What you are saying is that while Revan told Bane EXACTLY how to rule as Dark Lord of the Sith, which Bane followed word for word, he didnt invent it... thats ridiculous.

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