Next Class?

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randomfox:
Second, I see how Wolverine Origins is erased (it's been established by the creators that they considered it non-canon long ago when they were talking about doing a Deadpool movie) but I don't see the logical leap to X3 being erased. It comes off as wishful thinking on Bob's part. The little flashback beginning is erased, yes, but that hardly means the whole movie is being ignored. I'm not asking Bob to be objective or anything, since I think people who decry critics for being subjective are f&!#ing stupid, but try to keep fanboy yearning out of logical analysis. He just made a video (the Green Lantern Big Picture ones) about how fanboy bitching is a force for ill, so this comes off a slightly hypocritical to jump to the conclusion that a movie he doesn't like no longer counts just.... because!

So you're okay with the inconsistencies erasing Wolverine, but you don't agree that they erase "The last stand?" Yet Bob is the one that's a hypocrit here? Charles is walking at the end of Wolverine, which is obviously not possible given the age at which he was crippled in FC. Origins is erased.

Charles is also walking at the beginning of "The Last Stand," even though First Class says he was paralyzed by that time. Also, we see (a walking) Charles AND Magneto go to Jean's house in order to recruit her. This obviously did not happen in First Class, and cannot take place based on First Class' ending. Next we have Eric saying to Charles "we won't have to meet all of them, will we?" Speaking of travelling to Jean's house to get her parents' permission for her to attend the school. Charles answers "no. This one is special." So Magneto wasnt big on the "meet n' greet" in Last Stand. Yet in FC it was him that insisted that he and Charles be the ones to contact the mutants.

But let's say those don't necessarily negate the Last Stand. Okay, how about the fact that Moira MacTaggart was CIA agent in FC, but in Last Stand she was some kind of doctor? FC gave no indication that she has any kind of training in the field of medicine. She is clearly a field agent, and not a rookie as she knew several important people by their faces (as seen during her stakeout of the hellfire club), and the CIA director made a case for not killing her on the beach along with the mutants because she is "a good agent." What you're saying is that even though Charles was crippled at the end of first class, and seen walking at the beginning of Last Stand, that doesn't mean it was erased. And even though Moira was still employed with the CIA at the end of FC, but was a doctor in Last Stand hey! Bob is just being a wishful, hypocritical fanboy, right?

tdylan:

randomfox:
Second, I see how Wolverine Origins is erased (it's been established by the creators that they considered it non-canon long ago when they were talking about doing a Deadpool movie) but I don't see the logical leap to X3 being erased. It comes off as wishful thinking on Bob's part. The little flashback beginning is erased, yes, but that hardly means the whole movie is being ignored. I'm not asking Bob to be objective or anything, since I think people who decry critics for being subjective are f&!#ing stupid, but try to keep fanboy yearning out of logical analysis. He just made a video (the Green Lantern Big Picture ones) about how fanboy bitching is a force for ill, so this comes off a slightly hypocritical to jump to the conclusion that a movie he doesn't like no longer counts just.... because!

So you're okay with the inconsistencies erasing Wolverine, but you don't agree that they erase "The last stand?" Yet Bob is the one that's a hypocrit here? Charles is walking at the end of Wolverine, which is obviously not possible given the age at which he was crippled in FC. Origins is erased.

Charles is also walking at the beginning of "The Last Stand," even though First Class says he was paralyzed by that time. Also, we see (a walking) Charles AND Magneto go to Jean's house in order to recruit her. This obviously did not happen in First Class, and cannot take place based on First Class' ending. Next we have Eric saying to Charles "we won't have to meet all of them, will we?" Speaking of travelling to Jean's house to get her parents' permission for her to attend the school. Charles answers "no. This one is special." So Magneto wasnt big on the "meet n' greet" in Last Stand. Yet in FC it was him that insisted that he and Charles be the ones to contact the mutants.

But let's say those don't necessarily negate the Last Stand. Okay, how about the fact that Moira MacTaggart was CIA agent in FC, but in Last Stand she was some kind of doctor? FC gave no indication that she has any kind of training in the field of medicine. She is clearly a field agent, and not a rookie as she knew several important people by their faces (as seen during her stakeout of the hellfire club), and the CIA director made a case for not killing her on the beach along with the mutants because she is "a good agent." What you're saying is that even though Charles was crippled at the end of first class, and seen walking at the beginning of Last Stand, that doesn't mean it was erased. And even though Moira was still employed with the CIA at the end of FC, but was a doctor in Last Stand hey! Bob is just being a wishful, hypocritical fanboy, right?

Take out the ignorant sarcasm, and yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Insisting that those things are set in stone in a movie about comic books that had long since been retconning itself before they started making prequel movies is just as idiotic as protesting the Parallax debacle in Green Lantern, which Bob openly admitted to thinking was stupid. If these flimsy justifications for X3 not being cannon are to be taken seriously, then the first two X-Men cannot be canon either since X-Men 1 Prof. X displays confusion and ignorance about Magneto's psychic blocking helmet when he knows how it works and where he got it at the end of First Class, and Hank McCoy was seen in human form during the second movie, and yet he isn't making a case for those movies to be non canon, even though the retcon for that is far more egregious than the two stated here.

I admit calling him a hypocritical fanboy was probably an overeaction, but he seriously just comes off as grasping for straws with this "X3 isn't canon anymore hurray" argument. We know X-Men Origins is non cannon because the creators out and out declared it so, and as far as I'm concerned the will of the creators is more important than fanboy wet dreams (for example, see the horrible ways the Dark Pheonix saga was ruined by Jean's first resurrection) If the creators come out against X3, or the next movie really buttfucks the canon for it, then it can be quickly and easily forgotten. Until then, I'm not buying it. But I also refuse to waste time in a fanon pissing argument about little things some fans are stupidly clinging to that really don't matter in the grand scheme of these movies, and also because I f%@#ing hated X3 as much as the next guy, and I do honestly hope they come out with an official statement that it is indeed non canon.

Seriously, that final battle scene was absolute crap, Magneto had the strongest mutant on the planet right there and didn't use her at all until it was too late. Not that she did anything else for the entire rest of that movie except provide a flimsy excuse to write Patrick Stuart out of the movie within the first half hour.

Spot1990:
Beast negates the world X2 created because he was human looking in that.

Easy, he designed a holographic image inducer to hide his beast-like form. A lot of different characters like Night Crawler, Deadpool, Jocasta and Jack Monroe have all used them in the comics to hide their appearances. Considering he designed a prototype jet in the sixties capable of VTOL and that serum even though it didn't exactly work how he planned.

I'm proud to say that I was into Deadpool bfore he got popular. I started liking him back in 2001.

Erik did not help Xavier build Cerebro according to FC. There, X1 is no longer cannon. Enjoy.

Like I said, all the silly fanboys need to just accept each movie as it's own story and stop worrying about continuity, the filmmakers threw that out a long time ago.

Mister Linton:
Erik did not help Xavier build Cerebro according to FC. There, X1 is no longer cannon. Enjoy.

Like I said, all the silly fanboys need to just accept each movie as it's own story and stop worrying about continuity, the filmmakers threw that out a long time ago.

Erik did not help Xavier build the Cerebro located at the CIA facility. But to be honest, Xavier didn't build that one either. Beast did. It was already built when Xavier and Erik came into the picture. It's not far fetched to think that after the CIA was attacked and they retreated to the Xavier mansion, they built (began building) another Cerebro in order to continue their quest to locate and contact mutants. It stands to reason that Erik helped build the "Xavier Cerebro," seeing as how the construction would go a lot faster when you have a guy that can move metal with his mind. We also saw in X2 that Erik can manipulate Cerebro magnetically, and has enough knowledge of the way it works to be able to adjust it to target humans exclusively. So, in The first X-Men movie, when Xavier and Wolverine are inside (the mansion's) Cerebro and Xavier says to Wolverine "he (Mageneto) helped me build it," Xavier is clearly talking about the Cerebro that he was using at the moment - the one located inside the mansion - which we do not see in First Class, but can easily be shown in a flash back during "First Class 2" as being built during the events of First Class.

Also, in the first X-Men movie Charles states that Magneto's helmet is designed to prevent Charles reading his mind. Yes, this was clearly a revelation/new development at the time, but as far as remaining in continuity with First Class, Charles' behaviour in X-Men doesn't completely contradict what he already knew about the helmet. He could have simply been clarifying for Wolverine, the others, and the audience, that Erik's helmet is designed to block his telepathy. Charles never said anything like "I'm completely surprised by this discovery as I had no idea such a thing was possible."

As for Beast appearing human in X2, First Class makes it clear that Beast is concerned about his appearance. Raven pretty much tells him that the world should accept them as they are, and he tells her that it will never happen. Raven's last words to him were "Remember...mutant and proud!" This leads me to believe he was still at odds with his appearance. Who is to say that Beast did not continue searching for a cure for his appearance, and found it? He could have tried again and succeeded. At no point in First Class do we see a McCoy that has come to terms with his mutation.

X2 is obviously a follow up to X-men.
- Wolverine returning Cyclops' bike (that he stole at the end of X-Men)

- Rogue returning Wolverine's dogtags that he gave her in X-Men

- Magneto saying to Wolverine "Why do you always think everything is about you?" A reference to their confrontation on the train in X-men when Wolverine asked "What do you want with me?" and Magneto responded "my dear boy, who ever said that I wanted you?" and we all realize Magneto was after Rogue. In X2 Magneto wants Jean to read Nightcrawler's mind to find Stryker's facility. Wolverine thought that Magento wanted Jean to read his mind and Magneto pretty much tells him to get over himself.

- Mystique still has the scar on her stomach in X2 as a result of being stabbed by Logan in X-Men

- When Logan returns to the mansion in the beginning of X2, Jean asks him if he's going to runaway again (a reference to him leaving to find Rogue on his own in X-Men).

But yeah, you're right..."all the silly fanboys need to just accept each movie as it's own story and stop worrying about continuity, the filmmakers threw that out a long time ago."

Kinky stuff? Ok, off now to read Dark Phoenix saga!

Aiddon:
funniest thing for a Deadpool movie: have Fury show up and then have Deapool literally punch him out of the frame saying "Keep your Avengers shit the FUCK outta my film!". The Deadpool movie should actually be a parody slamming on the stupid superhero and comic cliches that have been rampant in modern times as well as the past.

He does have a frequent flyer card for the 4th Wall Office.

tdylan:
X2 is obviously a follow up to X-men.

X2 was 8 years and 3 movies ago. But hey, sitting around letting the continuity give you a tummy ache so bad that you make excuses for the movies you like and cry foul on the movies you don't is totally cool! You've certainly convinced me.

MovieBob:
The soft man gets a backbone . . .

Bob, did you intend that as an ironic statement? Because if you did, I am totally loving it.

A very nice article.

Oh and for those who are wanting a Deadpool film, this guy portrays him wonderfully.

Probably my favourite article by Bob. I've never seen any of the X-men movies, but a lot of my friends have, and I always thought it was kind of sad that a (apparently) stellar series would be ruined by X3 and Origins. Maybe I ought to watch those movies now.

Any chance that First Class also destroyed X2 and it's "Kill Cyclops" storyline? Because killing of the guy who pretty much IS the X-Men was real smart...

tdylan:
X2 is obviously a follow up to X-men.
- Wolverine returning Cyclops' bike (that he stole at the end of X-Men)

- Rogue returning Wolverine's dogtags that he gave her in X-Men

- Magneto saying to Wolverine "Why do you always think everything is about you?" A reference to their confrontation on the train in X-men when Wolverine asked "What do you want with me?" and Magneto responded "my dear boy, who ever said that I wanted you?" and we all realize Magneto was after Rogue. In X2 Magneto wants Jean to read Nightcrawler's mind to find Stryker's facility. Wolverine thought that Magento wanted Jean to read his mind and Magneto pretty much tells him to get over himself.

- Mystique still has the scar on her stomach in X2 as a result of being stabbed by Logan in X-Men

- When Logan returns to the mansion in the beginning of X2, Jean asks him if he's going to runaway again (a reference to him leaving to find Rogue on his own in X-Men).

But yeah, you're right..."all the silly fanboys need to just accept each movie as it's own story and stop worrying about continuity, the filmmakers threw that out a long time ago."

tdylan:
X2 is obviously a follow up to X-men.
- Wolverine returning Cyclops' bike (that he stole at the end of X-Men)

- Rogue returning Wolverine's dogtags that he gave her in X-Men

- Magneto saying to Wolverine "Why do you always think everything is about you?" A reference to their confrontation on the train in X-men when Wolverine asked "What do you want with me?" and Magneto responded "my dear boy, who ever said that I wanted you?" and we all realize Magneto was after Rogue. In X2 Magneto wants Jean to read Nightcrawler's mind to find Stryker's facility. Wolverine thought that Magento wanted Jean to read his mind and Magneto pretty much tells him to get over himself.

- Mystique still has the scar on her stomach in X2 as a result of being stabbed by Logan in X-Men

- When Logan returns to the mansion in the beginning of X2, Jean asks him if he's going to runaway again (a reference to him leaving to find Rogue on his own in X-Men).

But yeah, you're right..."all the silly fanboys need to just accept each movie as it's own story and stop worrying about continuity, the filmmakers threw that out a long time ago."

I face palm at you. I face palm at you a lot.

Selvec:
Any chance that First Class also destroyed X2 and it's "Kill Cyclops" storyline? Because killing of the guy who pretty much IS the X-Men was real smart...

That was actually the start of Last Stand. But, yeah, it's looking like First Class is a full reboot, 'cause there's a few more continuity issues.

NO true geek approves of continuity errors, they suck it up and soldier on! I'm ashamed of you Bob...

X1 vs X:O continuity issue that I havn't seen mentioned yet:

In X1 Wolverine and Sabertooth don't know each other. The small, supporting drama between them stems from the fact that they are evenly matched, but its just a detail for Wolverine's loner theme. In fact, I think Sabertooth's only lines are to Storm.

In X:O Sabertooth is Wolverine's sadistic big brother, and the entire movie is about their adventures together. Wolverine may have suffered memory loss, but Sabertooth sure didn't. This Sabertooth who essentially raised Wolverine, so why would he not at least say "Oh hey Jimmy, kill any fun people lately?" in X1? (And even if I'm wrong about Sabertooth keeping his memory, then why wouldn't Xavier or Jean say something? "Oh wait Logan, this guy thinks your name is Jimmy and you were born in Canada!")

I've got an official Marvel X-men encyclopedia that even mentions how their relationship greatly differs from the X1 and the comics. (This book was published between X1 and X2.)

You know now that I think about it: Did Xavier scan Sabertooth's mind to reveal clues about Wolverine's lost memory in the comics? I don't know if Sabertooth and Wolverine knew each other before the Weapon X program in the comics, but even still it would seem that Sabertooth's mind would be a good place to investigate Logan's past.

I believe it was in the X-Men 1.5 DVD (X-Men with bonus material) that the director explains Sabertooth (from X1) suffered memory loss prior to the events of the film, and that's why he didn't recognize/interact with Wolverine more than what was seen.

If they continue with the FC I'd like to see wolverine planted in the Xavier Institute as a sleeper agent. Sent to collect intel for William Stryker's program and or disupt Xavier. He could have conditioning to protect his thoughts from Xavier's telepathy. Thoughts?

Brilliant piece of writing, MovieBob. Fortunately, I've managed to not see both The Last Stand and Wolverine: Origins.

A long time ago i actually thought of what happened to the real deadpool/wade wilson during origins: See, they were going to use the original wilson for the 'deadpool' shown in that film due to his body being physically able to handle it. They first started with the healing factor that they took from sabertooth (they didn't have wolverine available at the time, but they had viktor). HOWEVER, it was at this point he was diagnosed with cancer and so Weapon X had to rush for a replacement. It was at this point they found another mutant, one who could completely transform themselves into another person right down the biological level. So, they made that guy become a copy of wade and he became the deadpool seen in the movie while the real wades origin story at this point basically mirrored that of his comic.

So at the start of the deadpool movie, he would be sort of like "Oh yeah, that whole thing with origins...that wasn't me, just some guy who could change shape and looked like me. But anyway, you came to watch me and obviously a much better movie, so lets focus on that"

....or we could just retcon origins, that works too. But hey, atleast i had the decency to think up a way to make everyone sort of happy?

I think this is all so much wishfull thinking. In X-Men 1 Xavier states that he met Magneto at age 17 (or 16, I forget) which clearly isn't what happened. And while I don't see this being intended Xavier mnight just as well get to be friends with Magneto again for a while in between. he might even walk again for a while, he did in the comics. If you say that anything that makes no sense in the timeline erases the new movies you have to start with X-Men 1. Just ignoring inconsistencies that don't fit into your wishfull thinking doesn't make sense here.

Spot1990:

Havok is Cyclops' brother but goes unmentioned in the other movies.

All of those can be explained away pretty easily except Beast. But they're still things that require an explanation in order to show these things happened in the same reality. I for one hope they don't connect them. That way we can also get a decent Sabretooth, Mystique and Azazel can be Nightcrawler's parents, among other things.

As much as I remember of the original two movies, Nightcrawler could easily be Mystique and Azazel's child (can't remember Azazel from the comics, but meh), with the looks and teleportation and so forth...

Also, Havok is in my eyes used more as a father than a brother to Cyclops in X-men First Class (the time line and powers would fit better), though to be fair that should have been Corsair (leader of the Star Jammers, from whom comes also Hepzibah, Corsair's lover, later love interest of Warpath, who have never been seen in any of the other movies, yet), but that would lead to the whole space angle being needed, so I guess they turned it down for the movies and used a more earth-bound approach, which sadly required Corsair to be "retconned" into his youngest son.. They obviously couldn't use Cyclops, as he is one of Xavier's students in the 90's, so I guess they went for the next best thing...

Best Regards :)

[/quote]

Also, Havok is in my eyes used more as a father than a brother to Cyclops in X-men First Class (the time line and powers would fit better), though to be fair that should have been Corsair (leader of the Star Jammers, from whom comes also Hepzibah, Corsair's lover, later love interest of Warpath, who have never been seen in any of the other movies, yet), but that would lead to the whole space angle being needed, so I guess they turned it down for the movies and used a more earth-bound approach, which sadly required Corsair to be "retconned" into his youngest son.. They obviously couldn't use Cyclops, as he is one of Xavier's students in the 90's, so I guess they went for the next best thing...

Best Regards :)[/quote]

If it's true that Havok was retconned to Scott's father because Corsair would have been to difficult, why not use Chamber and ignore the whole mess? Chamber does pretty much what Havok does, avoiding the continuity issue of Chamber's upper torso being a flaming mess most of the time, they could have kept him relatively normal looking till the end or the next film and used that secondary mutation as character growth.

I loved Havok in FC, but switching Chamber for Havok could have lead to a more interesting Cyclops and Havok team up later on.

Mark Logan:

XaVierDK:

Also, Havok is in my eyes used more as a father than a brother to Cyclops in X-men First Class (the time line and powers would fit better), though to be fair that should have been Corsair (leader of the Star Jammers, from whom comes also Hepzibah, Corsair's lover, later love interest of Warpath, who have never been seen in any of the other movies, yet), but that would lead to the whole space angle being needed, so I guess they turned it down for the movies and used a more earth-bound approach, which sadly required Corsair to be "retconned" into his youngest son.. They obviously couldn't use Cyclops, as he is one of Xavier's students in the 90's, so I guess they went for the next best thing...

Best Regards :)

If it's true that Havok was retconned to Scott's father because Corsair would have been to difficult, why not use Chamber and ignore the whole mess? Chamber does pretty much what Havok does, avoiding the continuity issue of Chamber's upper torso being a flaming mess most of the time, they could have kept him relatively normal looking till the end or the next film and used that secondary mutation as character growth.

I loved Havok in FC, but switching Chamber for Havok could have lead to a more interesting Cyclops and Havok team up later on.

I believe it was mostly done to keep the Summers name in the mix... I (wrongly) guessed he was supposed to be Scott's father from the outset (had the names mixed up)... So now they have a possibility of a good love story (alex summers and... whoever they choose to be Scott's mom), and an evil love story (azazel/Mystique) in the next one (yes, there will be a next one, FC is doing great at the box office), further confusing continuity buffs and further deepening the lore of this new, fresh take on the X-men :)

Best Regards

Nouw:
A very nice article.

Oh and for those who are wanting a Deadpool film, this guy portrays him wonderfully.

Yes! I have this Favorited and keep an eye on it regularly, I love the goofy little segments that he makes both with Deadpool and with the other characters he uses.

I love the Wolverine cameo so much its just "Hi,fuck you, bye" it was just hilarious.

Kevin Bacon as the Doctor and as the Leader of the Hellfire club was superb I haven't seen him do anything as enjoyable since he was in tremors quite frankly, charming but a huge dick at the same time.

I do have issue with the fact the Henchmen are never really fleshed out at all, Azazel at least talks but tornado dude, who the hell is he anyway? he isn't ever referred to by name that I remember(I just saw it yesterday so its still fresh)

Finally to the few people who say Charles and Erik barely knew each other long enough to build such a strongly emphasized friendship, did you not pay attention when 1.) Charles saves Erik's life when they meet. and 2.) gives him a sliver of joy in an otherwise tortured mind.
to someone who has had everything taken from him over and over again, to be given such profound gifts as friendship and peace of mind by a kindred spirit(since they both are mutants)and total stranger for no price or ulterior motive

MANIFESTER:
As much as I love Deadpool I would be cautious about how to do a movie. He is a funny character yes, but his most defining feature of breaking the 4th wall is just a difficult thing to write for. Hell, I can only think of a handful of movies and TV shows that have attempted it and fewer that have done it successfully. He worked well in Wolverine just because he was the comic relief....for 5 minutes. I could be happy with him being the comic relief again. I am curious how they would market a Deadpool movie too.

Yeah, I thought that too. I'm worried about a Deadpool movie in terms of what I agreed with in Bob's Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides review. Yeah, that minor character (Jack Sparrow) becomes a favorite of the fans, and it seems like a great idea to make him the star of his own thing. But is it a good idea to have that character carry the movie?

Or is it better to keep Deadpool a minor, or at most a major secondary character, so he's free to do what he does best (fourth wall breaking, generally being zany and unpredictable as all hell), while letting another main character do the stuff that would be out of character for him but necessary to the story/plot (being noble, having the romance, saving the world, blah, blah, blah)?

I mean, most superhero movies seem to be about saving the world, or at least averting some huge disaster. Granted, I'm probably not as familiar with Deadpool as some of you guys, but in my mind, unless you can think of a really good reason to get him to save the world, a giant meteor or whatever set to blow up the earth would probably just make him go "Awesome! Who's for an end of the world BBQ? We don't even need matches! I'll bring the hot dogs!"

I wish I could have phrased all that a bit more eloquently but yeah. I sort of feel like I may be just talking out of my ass. I'm not saying a Deadpool movie is impossible, but they're going to need some incredibly talented people who really know what they're doing to craft it.

sarahvait:
Yeah, I thought that too. I'm worried about a Deadpool movie in terms of what I agreed with in Bob's Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides review. Yeah, that minor character (Jack Sparrow) becomes a favorite of the fans, and it seems like a great idea to make him the star of his own thing. But is it a good idea to have that character carry the movie?

Or is it better to keep Deadpool a minor, or at most a major secondary character, so he's free to do what he does best (fourth wall breaking, generally being zany and unpredictable as all hell), while letting another main character do the stuff that would be out of character for him but necessary to the story/plot (being noble, having the romance, saving the world, blah, blah, blah)?

That's actually one of the most convincing arguments I've ever heard for having a Cable and Deadpool movie. Cable is the ultimate straight man to Deadpool's zani-ness.

tdylan:
-snip-

randomfox:
-snip-

OK, I have to take randomfox's side here. For one, you can't stop this kind of thing from happening when you have different writers and different filmmakers work around the same continuity. Some "glitches" simply are going to occur.
As for the legs, I believe that in the comic books Xavier lost the use of his legs when a rock was dropped on them. So there. How's that for continuity?
And I also remember that he once got the use of his legs back when he was infected with the Legacy Virus (ironic if you think about the first syllable in "Legacy") and he was able to walk again. So since he can theoretically get the use of his legs back whenever the continuity demands it.
But let's face it. The it doesn't really matter what the cause is for Xavier having to be in a wheelchair. What matters is that he is in a wheelchair, because it's just a part of the metaphore for the mind over matter ideology which Xavier represents.

Actually if you put it in consideration the first movie also has a contradict. In X-Men Profesor X doesn't know how magneto is avoiding his mind powers. In first Class he knows that the helmet avoids this. Also can somebody explain to me why the helmet stops the powers, its never explaind.

Also I wanted to say that while Rattner didn't do that good of a job with X3, its an okay movie. I mean I would say the writers fucked it up more (the writers of X2 went to Superman Returns). So yeah X3 wasn't good but I think its really hated too much by comic fans. Plus Fox was rushing the movie out the door (thats a reason why the guy that Ratner replaced left). What I say is that I don't hate that movie like everyone else and if it was in other hands the basic story could work.

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