Extra Punctuation: What is Mature Anyway?

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What is Mature Anyway?

Yahtzee wonders what makes a game mature.

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Yahtzee raises interesting points. Obviously his conclusion isn't based on practical considerations, but it's true that games have differing levels of "maturity" yet all get the M rating. I'd say that Red Dead Redemption is a rather mature game compared to most fare, because it has a very artistic way of dealing with its world. Bioshock and Fallout 3 are similar, but there's nothing on the box to say that these games have a slower, more thoughtful pace than Duke Nukem Forever or Call of Duty: Black Ops.

So here's what I've come up with. Instead of an age rating, the covers of games should depict a character from literature whose mindset you'd most need to sympathise with in order to get the most out of the product.

As I read this the ratings for Acorn cinema game reviews came to mind. You know, when instead of a numeric score he compares a game to a certain famous woman. It's the most colorful and surprisingly well done rating system I've seen in a long time.

Maybe the characters from "mortal kombat" are eunuchs. It's cruel of you to mock them.

I wish we lived in a rational enough world where ratings weren't necessary. Where we could all be reasonable enough to just put down something we don't like or agree with and not kick a stink about it. Or trust that people will parent their own kids without demanding the government or all of society do it for them.

Unfortunately I don't live in a time and place that really allows for that kind of expectation. Instead the North American expectation is that we all must child-proof our world and lie to kids about stuff they probably already know.

cjbos81:
Maybe the characters from "mortal kombat" are eunuchs. It's cruel of you to mock them.

Eunuchs only have their nuts removed so ya that doesnt exactly work.

Ah, god I hate children... Anyway, no cocks in Mortal Kombat actually bothers me. Kinda looks really stupid.
And I have to agree that current approach to game rating is way off.

Fully agree with that Last paragraph. I vote for the "Fuck it!" party.

And that "Decapitation=fine, woman's breast=Save the CHILDREN!" mentality really needs to go away. I mean, I know cultural habits die hard...but it's been what, 200 Fucking years since the 1800's.

It's really just the United States too. They're the ones who are most Vocal about it, if nothing else.

This is the ESRB version of the rating scale problems Jimquisition dealt with this week.

I am for a imdb sytle parent guide for games. If this exists let me know. Theres a big damn difference in my teenagers playing mortal kombats obviously comic violence, and dealing with LA Noire's Homicide cases...

BTW Yatz! LA NOIRE, for the mediocre at best game it was, that homicide section dealt with violence and aftermath pretty well. Until it dragged on for WAY too many cases.

Jumwa:
I wish we lived in a rational enough world where ratings weren't necessary. Where we could all be reasonable enough to just put down something we don't like or agree with and not kick a stink about it. Or trust that people will parent their own kids without demanding the government or all of society do it for them.

Unfortunately I don't live in a time and place that really allows for that kind of expectation. Instead the North American expectation is that we all must child-proof our world and lie to kids about stuff they probably already know.

True and timely.

Yahtzee's article couldn't come in a more relevant time, considering what just happened with California's legislation.

Personally, I don't mind the rating system. As an industry controlled system, its not perfect, but at least is an excuse to tell an outraged mother "Didn't you notice the big M in the front cover of the game? What did you expected a game called Grand Theft Auto be about? Knilling?". Also, its much better than the alternative.

I do have to give some credit to the ESRB in that they are including content descriptors and actual paragraphs that describe fully the content in the game. Of course, that can only work so far when you realize that the masses need to go to the website and actually look this stuff up in order to get this info.

Ah well, I've been telling myself lately that we're gradually getting better at this, that nothing noticeably changes even in one generation. So we set the precedent and let history sort us.

GrizzlerBorno:
Fully agree with that Last para. And that "Decapitation=fine, woman's breast=Save the CHILDREN!" really needs to go away. I mean, I know cultural habits die hard...but it's been what, 200 Fucking years since the 1800's. Can we PLEASE put irrational prudeness behind us already?

While were at if can you stop using that frame for the arguement? There is a big difference between preforming impossible comically overly gory kills and Kratos fucking 2 chicks in a minigame.

Its more then "just tits, get over it"

CyricZ:
I do have to give some credit to the ESRB in that they are including content descriptors and actual paragraphs that describe fully the content in the game. Of course, that can only work so far when you realize that the masses need to go to the website and actually look this stuff up in order to get this info.

Ah well, I've been telling myself lately that we're gradually getting better at this, that nothing noticeably changes even in one generation. So we set the precedent and let history sort us.

This is what I was looking for, I didnt know they did that and its exactly what I want. Its still difficult as violence is subjective.

bombadilillo:

GrizzlerBorno:
Fully agree with that Last para. And that "Decapitation=fine, woman's breast=Save the CHILDREN!" really needs to go away. I mean, I know cultural habits die hard...but it's been what, 200 Fucking years since the 1800's. Can we PLEASE put irrational prudeness behind us already?

While were at if can you stop using that frame for the arguement? There is a big difference between preforming impossible comically overly gory kills and Kratos fucking 2 chicks in a minigame.

Its more then "just tits, get over it"

Why is there a difference, exactly?

Mortal Kombat doesn't have dicks for convenience. People (99% of whom are guys) play it for the violance and gore. Guys don't want to look at another guy's junk. More than anything, they want to look at tits and vaginas.

Kids don't want forbidden fruit because it's forbidden, but because they're kids.
Many adults are just grown-up children, anyway, especially in the gaming community.

Christ, Yahtzee, you have the strangest logic sometimes.

GrizzlerBorno:
Fully agree with that Last paragraph. I vote for the "Fuck it!" party.

And that "Decapitation=fine, woman's breast=Save the CHILDREN!" mentality really needs to go away. I mean, I know cultural habits die hard...but it's been what, 200 Fucking years since the 1800's.

It's really just the United States too. They're the ones who are most Vocal about it, if nothing else.

Its a cultural thing. In countries like Germany its almost the other way around (breasts = fine, decapitation = hide our children), that is why Left 4 Dead 2 and Manhunt were banned there...

I do agree the double standard is not helping... but, then again, my opinion comes from a country that is pretty liberal in sexual content depictions.

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

GrizzlerBorno:
Fully agree with that Last para. And that "Decapitation=fine, woman's breast=Save the CHILDREN!" really needs to go away. I mean, I know cultural habits die hard...but it's been what, 200 Fucking years since the 1800's. Can we PLEASE put irrational prudeness behind us already?

While were at if can you stop using that frame for the arguement? There is a big difference between preforming impossible comically overly gory kills and Kratos fucking 2 chicks in a minigame.

Its more then "just tits, get over it"

Why is there a difference, exactly?

Wow, being deliberately obtuse. Good angle.

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

While were at if can you stop using that frame for the arguement? There is a big difference between preforming impossible comically overly gory kills and Kratos fucking 2 chicks in a minigame.

Its more then "just tits, get over it"

Why is there a difference, exactly?

Wow, being deliberately obtuse. Good angle.

No, I'm honestly kind of curious about your mindset. What's the big difference (that you apparently think should be obvious to others) between gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence?

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

Why is there a difference, exactly?

Wow, being deliberately obtuse. Good angle.

No, I'm honestly kind of curious about your mindset. What's the big difference (that you apparently think should be obvious to others) between gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence?

Theres a reason the coyote gets smashed with a giant mallet instead of the Roadrunner whipping its cock out and fucking him. If you cant see the difference...I dont know how to explain it to you.

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Wow, being deliberately obtuse. Good angle.

No, I'm honestly kind of curious about your mindset. What's the big difference (that you apparently think should be obvious to others) between gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence?

Theres a reason the coyote gets smashed with a giant mallet instead of the Roadrunner whipping its cock out and fucking him. If you cant see the difference...I dont know how to explain it to you.

Except the coyote doesnt show realistically his entire body crushed into a massive pulp, as his intestines spill out, his blood covers the ground, and you watch the inside of his skull, as well as his bowels emptying on the floor. Yeah, realistic image makes it sound bad doesnt it? We're not discussing cookie cuttered violence here. That mallet to the head in the kids eyes is like a fist to the shoulder.
No one is asking for sex to be taken less seriously than violence, but violence is considered better than an act of love.

Immature is something that either takes itself too seriously or is something that is meant to hurt or exploit others.

Mature is just the opposite of that.

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Wow, being deliberately obtuse. Good angle.

No, I'm honestly kind of curious about your mindset. What's the big difference (that you apparently think should be obvious to others) between gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence?

Theres a reason the coyote gets smashed with a giant mallet instead of the Roadrunner whipping its cock out and fucking him. If you cant see the difference...I dont know how to explain it to you.

No, cartoon violence =/= explicit sex. It would also be off-putting of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck re-enacted an explicitly violent movie like Saw. OTOH, we see nothing wrong with a "cartoonfied" version of courtship behavior:

image

I think the problem is that you think of all depictions of sexual behavior as explicit depictions of sexual intercourse, which ignores stuff like courtship behaviors, etc. So in cartoons we depict consequence-free violent mischief and consequence-free flirtation, whereas in God of War we depict stylized, non-explicit (the definition of explicit violence being something out of a torture movie) violence, and stylized, non-explicit sex.

well i agree that the only reason kids even WANT to get their grubby digits on "mature" games is BECAUSE they're rated "mature" and because we tell them it's bad.

So if we told them "fine, you wanna play it? whatever." and just got rid of a rating system altogether it would more than likely discourage them from wanting to do it so much

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

No, I'm honestly kind of curious about your mindset. What's the big difference (that you apparently think should be obvious to others) between gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence?

Theres a reason the coyote gets smashed with a giant mallet instead of the Roadrunner whipping its cock out and fucking him. If you cant see the difference...I dont know how to explain it to you.

No, cartoon violence =/= explicit sex. It would also be off-putting of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck re-enacted an explicitly violent movie like Saw. OTOH, we see nothing wrong with a "cartoonfied" version of courtship behavior:

image

I think the problem is that you think of all depictions of sexual behavior as explicit depictions of sexual intercourse, which ignores stuff like courtship behaviors, etc. So in cartoons we depict consequence-free violent mischief and consequence-free flirtation, whereas in God of War we depict stylized, non-explicit (the definition of explicit violence being something out of a torture movie) violence, and stylized, non-explicit sex.

At what point did I saw I saw all sexual behavior like that? Nice try, the original complaint was CLEARLY about framing the argument as "some tits=SAVE THE CHILDREN" So go back and figure out whats being discussed before you make your strawman argument.

And which video game has realistic violence? Were talking about MK mostly which has a guy kcik someones head off, turn into a dragon...Very realistic.

draythefingerless:

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

No, I'm honestly kind of curious about your mindset. What's the big difference (that you apparently think should be obvious to others) between gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence?

Theres a reason the coyote gets smashed with a giant mallet instead of the Roadrunner whipping its cock out and fucking him. If you cant see the difference...I dont know how to explain it to you.

Except the coyote doesnt show realistically his entire body crushed into a massive pulp, as his intestines spill out, his blood covers the ground, and you watch the inside of his skull, as well as his bowels emptying on the floor. Yeah, realistic image makes it sound bad doesnt it? We're not discussing cookie cuttered violence here. That mallet to the head in the kids eyes is like a fist to the shoulder.
No one is asking for sex to be taken less seriously than violence, but violence is considered better than an act of love.

I do see what your saying. Perhaps violence is simply easier to cartoonify? If thats a valid description. Its easy to over-the-top gore to where its out of that realistic zone and pointless. Thats harder to do with sex.

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Wow, being deliberately obtuse. Good angle.

No, I'm honestly kind of curious about your mindset. What's the big difference (that you apparently think should be obvious to others) between gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence?

Theres a reason the coyote gets smashed with a giant mallet instead of the Roadrunner whipping its cock out and fucking him. If you cant see the difference...I dont know how to explain it to you.

Gratuitous sex is bad because society says it's bad? There has to be an explanation.

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Theres a reason the coyote gets smashed with a giant mallet instead of the Roadrunner whipping its cock out and fucking him. If you cant see the difference...I dont know how to explain it to you.

No, cartoon violence =/= explicit sex. It would also be off-putting of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck re-enacted an explicitly violent movie like Saw. OTOH, we see nothing wrong with a "cartoonfied" version of courtship behavior:

Image snipped

I think the problem is that you think of all depictions of sexual behavior as explicit depictions of sexual intercourse, which ignores stuff like courtship behaviors, etc. So in cartoons we depict consequence-free violent mischief and consequence-free flirtation, whereas in God of War we depict stylized, non-explicit (the definition of explicit violence being something out of a torture movie) violence, and stylized, non-explicit sex.

At what point did I saw I saw all sexual behavior like that? Nice try, the original complaint was CLEARLY about framing the argument as "some tits=SAVE THE CHILDREN" So go back and figure out whats being discussed before you make your strawman argument.

And which video game has realistic violence? Were talking about MK mostly which has a guy kcik someones head off, turn into a dragon...Very realistic.

No, you were comparing "impossible comically overly gory kills and Kratos fucking 2 chicks in a minigame" which are basically the same level of content. God of War depicts everything (sex, violence, architecture, movement, etc) in a stylized way. If you had some other interpretation for your argument in mind, maybe you should have expressed yourself more clearly :)

And I agree with you that generally games don't explicitly depict violence. Heavy Rain does, but that's about it.

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

No, cartoon violence =/= explicit sex. It would also be off-putting of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck re-enacted an explicitly violent movie like Saw. OTOH, we see nothing wrong with a "cartoonfied" version of courtship behavior:

Image snipped

I think the problem is that you think of all depictions of sexual behavior as explicit depictions of sexual intercourse, which ignores stuff like courtship behaviors, etc. So in cartoons we depict consequence-free violent mischief and consequence-free flirtation, whereas in God of War we depict stylized, non-explicit (the definition of explicit violence being something out of a torture movie) violence, and stylized, non-explicit sex.

At what point did I saw I saw all sexual behavior like that? Nice try, the original complaint was CLEARLY about framing the argument as "some tits=SAVE THE CHILDREN" So go back and figure out whats being discussed before you make your strawman argument.

And which video game has realistic violence? Were talking about MK mostly which has a guy kcik someones head off, turn into a dragon...Very realistic.

No, you were comparing "impossible comically overly gory kills and Kratos fucking 2 chicks in a minigame" which are basically the same level of content. God of War depicts everything (sex, violence, architecture, movement, etc) in a stylized way. If you had some other interpretation for your argument in mind, maybe you should have expressed yourself more clearly :)

And I agree with you that generally games don't explicitly depict violence. Heavy Rain does, but that's about it.

No, MK fatalities are literally impossible for the most part, A manly man could do what Kratos does.

One is possible one is impossible. Perfect difference. (I guess you cant really bone a Goddess)

For once, I agreed with everything Yahtzee has said. One more vote for the "Fuck it" rating system.
Also, I noticed on these forums that a few of the people that have condemned DNF solely for being immature also have My Little Pony avatars.

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

At what point did I saw I saw all sexual behavior like that? Nice try, the original complaint was CLEARLY about framing the argument as "some tits=SAVE THE CHILDREN" So go back and figure out whats being discussed before you make your strawman argument.

And which video game has realistic violence? Were talking about MK mostly which has a guy kcik someones head off, turn into a dragon...Very realistic.

No, you were comparing "impossible comically overly gory kills and Kratos fucking 2 chicks in a minigame" which are basically the same level of content. God of War depicts everything (sex, violence, architecture, movement, etc) in a stylized way. If you had some other interpretation for your argument in mind, maybe you should have expressed yourself more clearly :)

And I agree with you that generally games don't explicitly depict violence. Heavy Rain does, but that's about it.

No, MK fatalities are literally impossible for the most part, A manly man could do what Kratos does.

One is possible one is impossible. Perfect difference. (I guess you cant really bone a Goddess)

Sex and violence, in the real world, don't work the way they do in God of War. Neither does architecture. (Because everything is stylized in that game.) So no, there isn't a huge difference.

This has been said a thousand times but I'll say it again

"Its the parents responsibility"-Everyone,Ever

Kahunaburger:

No, MK fatalities are literally impossible for the most part, A manly man could do what Kratos does.

One is possible one is impossible. Perfect difference. (I guess you cant really bone a Goddess)

Sex and violence, in the real world, don't work the way they do in God of War. Neither does architecture. (Because everything is stylized in that game.) So no, there isn't a huge difference.[/quote]

What does stylized have anything to do with it, thats a filter that is a different thing entirely to the content. I can put a black and white filter over a porn and stylize it and its still a porn. The violence is ripping horns of a ogre, the sex is having sex with a woman.

OT. I believe the whole "mature" tag only goes for how graphic it is, giving the most immature handling of the subject matter the highest rating. Irony?

bombadilillo:

No, MK fatalities are literally impossible for the most part, A manly man could do what Kratos does.

One is possible one is impossible. Perfect difference. (I guess you cant really bone a Goddess)

Wait a minute... you're saying that a very strong and agile man could pull off the kills that Kratos does?

That's funny. Have you played the God of War games? Like, all the way through? On a difficulty harder than easy?

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