Extra Punctuation: What is Mature Anyway?

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Isn't it actually John Yossarian? The author was Joseph Heller...

Not that I'm saying that being able to ogle Sub-Zero's fat juicy combat boner would significantly improve the quality and tone of the game, but it is indicative of the attitudes involved that you can have all the unflichingly realistic gore in the world but the moment you want to extend that realism to full sexual anatomy then all the little boys shy away with red-faced titters. What are you, gay?

My favourite part, made me chuckle a lot.

Another awesome piece. I'd say the thing about the article noticing violence as being a lot less repressed than sexuality in videogames comes from the following. Most videogames are made BY and FOR America. And if there's one thing that stands true about America, it's John Cleese's analysis.

"Oh, it's simple. With them it's always all about sex."

Either the suggestiveness gone out of proportions to the point they might as well telegraph it as well as through censors calling for 'maturity', including to the more 'hip' online community preachers judging it by their own personal tastes and biases.

Which is wholly unsurprising why you found that Witcher 2 boob scene appropriate, given that it comes from a European developer. Granted, they also did the card thing in Witcher 1 and it's still aimed for the American market primarily, since they are the main body of consumers...but shaddap, it's still an improvement. :p

My parents used the ratings on games with regard to how I was behaving at the time. They would let me rent or buy games based on how mature I was acting, as opposed to my literal age. When I was really young that didn't come up as much, it was E or bust, but when I was a teenager I could rent or buy M games as long as I was being mature enough that they thought I could handle them. I think the system where it just lists the content would be a great way to encourage more parents to be aware of the content in games and maybe encourage awareness of what their specific kid could handle.

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

Sex and violence, in the real world, don't work the way they do in God of War. Neither does architecture. (Because everything is stylized in that game.) So no, there isn't a huge difference.

What does stylized have anything to do with it, thats a filter that is a different thing entirely to the content. I can put a black and white filter over a porn and stylize it and its still a porn. The violence is ripping horns of a ogre, the sex is having sex with a woman.

That's kind of silly - unless the sex you have is with bizarrely-proportioned people who don't use birth control and lasts 30 seconds, I don't think you could call God of War sex "realistic" with a straight face. In other words, the whole "unrealistic/stylized violence against imaginary creature = okay, unrealistic/stylized sex between imaginary people = WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!1!!" argument doesn't hold water.

Yeah, your wrong. But keep thinking misrepresenting the whole thread if you want. Whatever lets you sleep at night.

If you really can't see the difference between sex and violence in society, ask yourself why do can you play football in high school but not join the schools porn club? There is a difference, and your pretending and wanting there not to be doesnt magically make it so.

This whole discussion started from whining like you just said "SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN" Thats your hyperbole and its the problem. 20 comments later. Still the same think, misrepresenting it as some sort of mythical screaming Simpsons preacher wife. Thats the only thing ridiculous here. Your non position that from beginning to end is based on strawman hyperbole to have the least bit of traction.

bombadilillo:

Kahunaburger:

bombadilillo:

What does stylized have anything to do with it, thats a filter that is a different thing entirely to the content. I can put a black and white filter over a porn and stylize it and its still a porn. The violence is ripping horns of a ogre, the sex is having sex with a woman.

That's kind of silly - unless the sex you have is with bizarrely-proportioned people who don't use birth control and lasts 30 seconds, I don't think you could call God of War sex "realistic" with a straight face. In other words, the whole "unrealistic/stylized violence against imaginary creature = okay, unrealistic/stylized sex between imaginary people = WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!1!!" argument doesn't hold water.

Yeah, your wrong. But keep thinking misrepresenting the whole thread if you want. Whatever lets you sleep at night.

Clearly you have some idea or argument that you aren't communicating clearly to the rest of us. So please explain what you want to say clearly - otherwise it won't be possible to have a discussion. Also, don't get angry at people for failure to read your mind :)

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Now, admittedly this is a policy that ultimately leads to children suffering emotional scarring or even death, but there comes a time when you have to stop letting that sort of thing bother you, generally when you're riding the bus home at around the time the schools close.

Preach it brother.

You want something that scares you far more than anything an 18 certificate puts out?

Thank you Yahtzee, really thank you. I have to admit that I was bothered by DNF but only because of the comments on videos on Youtube talking about how it's okay to laugh at rape, besides the fact that vagina doors and wall boobs next to impregnated naked women moaning just plain creeps me out.

But I was born in 1990, these games were not meant for me... especially since I am a straight woman, but I really like what you said.

it does bother me how much people are upset by nudity in anything, especially since there is some pretty twisted shit going on tha tis allowed, but I do like your rating by book pictures idea, XD it could work. I wonder what games and movies would have pictures of Alex from Clockwork Orange though XD

Steve the Pocket:

debossman21:
Yahtzee has a point. I think this illustrates it very well.
http://satwcomic.com/anything-but-that

And while America isn't the only one, we certainly make the biggest deal out of it.

Appropriately, that game is one of the only well-known games released in recent years to never get an ESRB rating because it is only sold online.

Which I think is what ought to start happening. Now that there's no fear of our government stepping in and imposing some sort of rating system on the industry, game companies are free to release their games without a rating. Publishers probably still won't bite, since there are potential lost sales at stake, but at least the whole "if we don't rate our games, the big bad gummint will!" argument is dead.

thats not the argument im making at all. i was merely pointing out the whole "sex = ban" thing.

Yeah, the "mature" label is very ironically named. It used to be a term likened to advanced or wisened, not the existance of boobs (something we ate from for the first months of our lives). Violence isn't much better, as if quanitiy of blood is represenitve of the impact. I saw more than a few slasher flims in my younger days and was never bothered by the acts of Jason or Freddie as much as say the death of Bambi's mother, the shooting of Old Yeller, or the darker parts of the Neverending Story.

So much of me agrees to dump the system entirely. It served some purpose years ago when we bought or rented or saw things largely in ignorance, but with the internet, we can look up God of War, dragon Age or anything and get a handle of the intensity level of things outselves. Sadly that takes work for a crowd of people that may not take the effort to read a rating label put in front of them, let alone do a google search. I'd like to add depth to things. You know, breking out grades of violence, language, nudity, and overall conent and explaining why they got those ratings. Sadly again, the back of game boxes is alread too full of legal crap to leave much room for screenshots. That would just put a novel on the back.

Nice point. Thinking past the immediate "Whoooooaaaa!" moment of the aforementioned pencil scene in TDK is a much, much more horrific happening than what happens to the meat clusters in Mortal Kombat. But maybe that's the difference itself--a thinking pain. Without the faculties to imagine the gruesomeness of the results, the more visceral, bloody, broken bones/ruptured artery imagery is worse. It's the the same line of thought that the first layers of hell are the emotional layers, but the worst crimes, those punished further down, are the crimes where things are often smaller, more precise, more thought out. The personal or intellectual crimes, if you will. It's in the same light that the Heavy Rain Sequence sits so much more uncomfortably on the psyche than ripping off someone's legs in God of war.

CyricZ:
I do have to give some credit to the ESRB in that they are including content descriptors and actual paragraphs that describe fully the content in the game. Of course, that can only work so far when you realize that the masses need to go to the website and actually look this stuff up in order to get this info.

Ah well, I've been telling myself lately that we're gradually getting better at this, that nothing noticeably changes even in one generation. So we set the precedent and let history sort us.

I have to fully agree with this. The letter on the box is almost meaningless and the single phrase descriptors of the reasons for the ratings are only slightly informative. I do, however, appreciate the short rating explanations that you can find on the website for newer games. We could probably get away without a rating system that the government can use to regulate, but I do advocate parents having some control over what their children play. whattheyplay.com has some decent information, but it is generally behind the release schedule. The ESRB information is detailed and available a month before the release date; you just have to do your own homework to find it.

Isn't it funny that when "mature, high-minded, forward-thinking" people start talking about sex, their heads IMMEDIATELY disappear up their asses?

I dunno, I find that kinda funny.

I think the most mature games are the ones who aren't afraid of being childish.

That being said, there are limits, when I saw this, I never played Super Mario Galaxy again.
image
siiiiiigh.

Dak_N_Jaxter:

Shjade:

Dak_N_Jaxter:
What was more horrific? That one chick getting cut up by Alien hordes, or Woody and his friends being thrown into furnace?

Definitely the chick getting cut up.

Does that make it more mature? No.

I would disagree personally on the grounds that character investment was more intense for Toy Story.

Character investment increases tragedy and pain, not so much horror. I'd be just as horrified by a car crash sawing a stranger in half in front of me as I would if it did so to, say, my sister. It's equally nauseating and visceral either way; one just causes more emotional pain than the other.

That said, as the poster above you pointed out, nothing happens to the toys, so why would that be anywhere near comparable to someone getting hacked up?

That and, y'know. They're toys. Plastic. They go through the motions, but I have a hard time picturing how it would physically hurt. Would it be terrible that their consciousness was snuffed out? Sure, okay. Not particularly horrifying though.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Anyway, one of the iconic features of the first Witcher game was that there was a collectible sidequest based around notching your bedpost, wherein you acquired a nudey picture of a female character when Geralt successfully bones her (perhaps a close-up picture of Geralt's new venereal disease would have been more appropriate)

Probably sad that instead of laughing at this... my first thought was "Silly Yahtzee... if you actually played through The Witcher, you would know that Geralt is immune to disease"

In my opinion violence in a videogame is mostly very different from any real life form of violence, as in most cases we can dehumanise the enemy, and focus on our action - the act of killing the enemy.
It is difficult to dehumanise any of the parties of sex without demeaning a person or gender as a mere 'sex object', as we might argue a faceless enemy to be an object to kill. The act of sex is implicitly a two-person (at least!) affair, so requires more than just the action of one player making the shot.

However, violence in games takes place in the realm of fantasy, with many unrealistic acts of violence appearing in all genres of games. The entire pornography industry is built around the fantasies of sex, and so there is clear potential for the crossing of two areas of fantasy. Realism does not always make for the best games, so there may be scope for wild and fantastical sexual acts in our games as well.

The very fact that people who play violent videogames can be unsettled by the thought of sexual content is that people have differing levels in what they find uncomfortable for different things. For instance, if we were to take several surgeons, who all have a high tolerance for gore, and ask them to watch a couple have sex, we would expect all of them to have differing reactions to doing so. Sexual content may then require its own warnings, and its own rating system for those who may be discomforted by it. A turn-off system might also be implemented, such as in games where you can opt for minimised gore.

A long, long, time ago (two years, which is, like, FOREVER, man), I wrote a post decrying the immature hypocrisy of teenage boys who had harassed a female Mod designer for creating anatomically-correct nude males for Oblivion (bizarrely calling it "gay" despite it coming from a woman). Why do I bring this up? Because just like those teenage boys, the current defintion of "mature" is locked in the teenage male's mindset of what is "adult": Boobs, blood, fists and guns. They're not looking for literature, for deep thought or the consequences that actions might bring or harsh decisions made with seconds to spare- it's about the boobs, blood, fists and guns. And since the teenage male is still the industry's number-one cash cow (and the industry itself is composed primarily of those who were either teenage males not too long ago, or those who still have the teenage-male mentality), that is the "maturity" they will embrace.

Can the industry branch out? Of course it can; the film industry has demonstrated that it can manage to put out rom-coms and dramas right alongside the popcorn action flicks, and Twilight didn't cause every one of Shakespeare's plays to burst into flames. But to do so, it needs more people in leadership and creative roles who understand that "maturity" is more than boobs, blood, fists and guns.

More intelligent and discerning gamers buying the games they make wouldn't hurt, either.

I've been saying for awhile now that there's really no actual maturity, there's only play-acting.

When we're kids we giggle about sex because we don't understand it - most kids start learning about sex at an age when they think the other gender is "gross" or has "cooties" or... whatever. Most laughter in our formative years comes from a sense of embarassment, and we laugh to cover our shame however mild.

As we grow up and become jaded and cynical, we stop laughing at the things that we consider embarassing or shameful because we've learned that's not polite, and anyway, we've seen it all before. I think between the ages 12-18 we become too "grown up" to enjoy the little things.
When we act inappropriately as children we're told to "act our age" (ha!) or "be mature" and we inadvertantly interpret this as "don't ever have fun". So the ability to not giggle about sex or laugh at fart jokes or get caught picking your nose in public is a mark of your maturity, and you get to sneer at your former-peers who are still scrabbling in the mud of their adolescence.

I decided a few years ago that fuck it. I'm legally an adult. I work a 42 hour week, I pay taxes, I can buy alcohol and cigarettes and pornography. As long as I'm not breaking any laws what's the fucking point of being an adult if I let other people's values dictate how I get my kicks?

Maturity isn't about hiding tits because "who needs to see tits anyway, they're just tits, grow up" it's about accepting there's going to be some tits present and including them without feeling the need to qualify it.
I haven't played the Witcher 2 but I have seen a video of the scene Yahtzee refers to and I think it was conducted perfectly. Geralt is in bed with a naked woman and there is no reason for her to be shy - they've clearly got intimate history. The woman only covers up when, in video-games most effective cockblocking in history, a soldier bursts in without knocking. In all fairness, they are in a tent.

Maturity is about accepting things as they are and resolving that with yourself. If you hide the 'mature' themes or hide your feelings about them, you're being just as immature as the kid who giggles at sex jokes because he doesn't understand them.

You could argue that in a medium where everything is created, from the ground to the sky, from the swords to the boobies, that making a decision to include or not include tits lies with the designer, that any content in games has a greater impact because it was deliberately included and cannot be considered incidental. Hours upon hours went into carefully sculpting the perfect rack for this scene.

I watched the first episode of season 4 of True Blood this week. I was aware that Tara (who is now a lesbian cage-fighter called 'Toni') once again left her bra on during a pre-sex scene (presumably because the actress isn't paid enough to take it off) while her partner was topless (as a bit-part character, I assume her willingness to show her nipples on camera was the only reason she was cast for the role).
I noticed the 'incidental' Sookie sideboob at the end of the episode.

I noticed these things because I'm a guy, and I bring them up because there is no difference between making videogame breasts and giving us a scene where Sookie undresses, we see her bare back, and just a hint of sideboob as she tosses her dress at (I presume) a hamper somewhere. Someone decided that was how much Sookie breast we'd get that episode. Why not more? We've seen Sookie topless several times in previous seasons. Did she renegotiate her contract or are they saving them for later? Why show her undressing at all?

whoa, that is EXACTLY my plan for raising my future kids. pain is the greatest teacher. of course i wouldnt let them do anything fatal or near fatal, but everything else is fair game.

Here's an interesting point with the ratings system. See, Zelda OoT for the N64 got a 7+ rating for it, whereas the recent release for the 3DS received a 12+ rating. Now the graphics haven't improved drastically, the story is still the same, there is no increase in gore, Navi is still annoying etc etc. So, why is it that the age rating has gone up. I can't think of any besides the fact that what wasn't acceptable for kids of today but when we were growing up with it, oh no, everything's fine and dandy.

See, this is why I agree with Yahtzee's "F*ck it" policy. In fact, I was raised on that policy and I think it's a dieing British trend. I was raised with my parents thrusting alcohol into my face at the age of 3 (no they weren't alcoholics, I hated the taste, put me off it until I was 16, I never got drunk and they mostly just wanted to see my reaction). The same was said for cigarettes, my parents weren't smokers but the rest of my family was. They'd never offer me one but they were fully open about them and they weren't these "mystical adult objects", they were just normal. The only thing they freaked out about was nudity and...well...yeah I've sorta travelled down that field just to see what was so bad about it and had a run in with the police at some point, so if anything that further strengthens the policy.

Of course I'm not saying let kids run around free, but don't make everything "adult only" because then kids will just try them constantly when they can finally do them and it will have more of a chance of ruining their lives.

sex, an act of love

Adorable.

Shjade:

Dak_N_Jaxter:

Shjade:

Definitely the chick getting cut up.

Does that make it more mature? No.

I would disagree personally on the grounds that character investment was more intense for Toy Story.

Character investment increases tragedy and pain, not so much horror. I'd be just as horrified by a car crash sawing a stranger in half in front of me as I would if it did so to, say, my sister. It's equally nauseating and visceral either way; one just causes more emotional pain than the other.

That said, as the poster above you pointed out, nothing happens to the toys, so why would that be anywhere near comparable to someone getting hacked up?

That and, y'know. They're toys. Plastic. They go through the motions, but I have a hard time picturing how it would physically hurt. Would it be terrible that their consciousness was snuffed out? Sure, okay. Not particularly horrifying though.

Okay, maybe horrific was a poor word to use.
My point was that I cared more about what happened to the characters.
I was brought to the brink of tears during that scene. I lost all consideration that it was a family film, and I really believed they were all going to die.
It was powerful, dramatic, and "mature", in the sense that it was able to give me that emotional reaction.

However, Heavy Metal, did no such thing (with the possible exception of the flying birdy thing).
Its a movie all about gritty, extreme and "mature" themes, such as sex, drugs and violence.
Yet, its one of the most juvenile films ever made.

I was just reflecting on Yahtzee was pointing out. Mature is a somewhat fickle term.
Can you really say Toy Story isn't mature because it's family friendly?
Is Heavy Metal mature just because of its more adult themes?
Do you measure maturity by integrity or content?

Yeah, it is mechanical, Yahtzee. That's all you can really do. It's the same way with the film industry in the U.S.

I don't think they should rate them Everyone, Teen, Mature. They should change to age ratings and bring back Kids to Adults. That was a good rating.

I mean, I played Resident Evil 4 at... sixteen... I'm not really sure, but I had to ask my parents if I could buy it. Just like I had to ask them if I could go into an R-rated movie.

Ultimately. What one person finds mature over another is going to differ. I don't think thirteen-year-old kids should play DNF, but hey, that's what parents are for.

I know I was shocked to hear damn in Portal 2, and it was more because it had a E10 rating, I was playing Bulletstorm at the same time.

So, yeah, move to strictly age-based ratings. 10, 13-16, 17+. The only fair way to rank it then would be on the number of forks in eyes and F-bombs.

It's John Joseph Yossarian, so you're both right enough.

On the note of censorship, I totally agree that censoring/warnings should be context, or 'case by case' evaluated. However, films aren't like that yet, and that's a much older medium. Granted games are more controversial because of the interactive element, but 'if wishes were fishes' ..etc. The problem of kids wanting to see things rated above their ages is nothing new but I think definitely indicates a problem with the current rating system, rather than a problem with the media itself.

Also on a picky note, I haven't played Heavy Rain yet, but from what I've heard it's a very gritty, hard to watch thriller with plenty of suspense/look away moments. That really doesn't sound like 'Slaughter house five' or 'catch 22' (or more accurately, the characters in them). Both of those books I love, and both are extremely dry/black comedies about the idiocy/madness of war (and life generally). There are stressful scenes, but it's not the main focus of the novels. Maybe Yahtzee pulled a couple of names out of the hat, but I really don't see how these characters convey the game's tone. Maybe heavy rain is different to how I've heard?

jjofearth:
Hullo there. Genuine thirteen-year-old. From what I've seen and demo'ed of DN:F (I don't want to buy it - inb4 pocket money jokes), it appears to be a piece of juvenile, asinine, objectifying, quasi-misogynistic (I added the prefix because of the hordes of people who seem to think that preventing hatred [and it is hatred {really, I can't think of a single reason within the context of the game to have naked ladies other than because <Haha, nested brackets, you've forgotten what I was talking about>...well, naked ladies }in every sense of the word] is an affront to free speech) Frankenstein-ic, zombified, petrified, archaeologically fascinating, and fundamentally, necessarily *immature* game.

Or, you know. It's kinda lame.

I was considering buying it until that part with the alien hive and the breasts on the wall that you could slap. That really turned me off the game. Not because it has breasts...but because they're not actually breasts, they're alien tit things. And you slap them. For no real purpose.
That whole business with the spanking the girls in the capture the babe mode? That's in context. Didn't care about that. But why wall-tits?

People will complain about everything given a chance. I think MK violence is laughable in terms of physical improbability. The only thing that made the fatalities sinister all the way through the series, except the last two where they toned them way down, were very terrifying screams of the victims. I never found fightings that interesting personally, especially the MK series where it all comes down to performing a fatality for everybody's vicious bloodlust.

I seriously have no idea why sex is considered such a taboo in our society. Witnessing an act of physical love on public channels is considered vile, whilst seeing somebody's head blown off on TV is a-okay. What's wrong with you, people (I don't include anyone who shares my confusion on the matter)?

Letting the kids experiment around on various issues is probably the best way to go. If a kid dies because of it, the better the rest of us are off. It's called evolution, one of the main reasons why we're all here. The world is overpopulated as it is and there are just too many idiots around.

Yeah, before I forget: always and I mean always think of the children!

Man I got all giddy when he mentioned Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse-Five. In my opinion one of the greatest war books ever written. It doesn't try to glamorize war in anyway, the author even gave it the subtitle "The Children's Crusade" to highlight the fact that many, like the author himself, were barely men when they were forced to fight.

I was part-skim reading the forth paragraph, pausing a couple of times and waslike lulwut?

I've always been of the opinion that maturity boiled down to a degree of self-knowledge. It's one of the reasons that the older I've gotten, the more I've been interested in reading and watching things created by people with a sense of humor. I find work that's able to laugh at itself to be intrinsically more mature than something that feels a need to slap tits on everything - maybe that's just me.

Great column as always. Thought provoking and such. Anyway, I've long had my own definition of what is "mature," and I believe it is best illustrated through comparison.

I say that themes like sex, drugs, violence, and so forth are not inherently "mature," but rather merely "adult," as in, not for the kids. Duke Nukem has all three of those, and it's intentionally immature. It is merely "adult."

In order to be "mature," as I see it, something must be made to provoke thought or genuine emotion in someone. That pencil scene was quite mature, but you can have "mature" themes without them necessarily being adult themes. My favorite example would be the Klonoa games. It's a cutesy, colorful platformer that's good for all ages yet it deals with very serious themes such as friendship, betrayal, and death (outright murder, actually). The way it treats these themes is emotionally affecting and thought provoking, and thus I call them mature. They're appropriate for people of all ages, and they are very mature.

So! I'm not really sure how you can gauge that sort of thing objectively with ratings. I believe somebody offered the idea of ditching the Mature rating and making all Mature games Adults Only. I think that's a pretty good idea, for then the parents REALLY have no excuse. As for whether they're mature or not, I think that something as complicated as that does not distill into a ratings system very well, and should best be left to the reviewers. After all, the only people who'd care about that sort of thing are the ones likely to read reviews, aren't they?

In my opinion, seeing an X-ray of a guy's junk when he gets struck there far surpasses Heavy rain's finger scene in terms of squeamishness.

I hadn't heard of A Serbian Movie before... so of course I Googled it... does anyone have some mind bleach?

I find all this media censorship aimed at children just a "get-out-of-parenting-free-card" designed for the people who'd rather park their children in front of a TV than take an interest in their upbringing.

I do understand why people rely on television (and more recently computers/internet/interactive media/whatever) to help keep their kids busy and out of trouble while they work to put food on the table, since it was for the most part how I too grew up.

Both parents had to work and in the time between school and when they'd get home I would mostly spend time in front of the tv or at the computer. Also due to very, very lax regulation of content where I grew up, I also got to consume what would be considered adult oriented media from quite an early age (more or less with my parent's knowledge). I think I watched my first porn movie at around 10. I was certainly playing stuff like Quake and Mortal Kombat by then. Ultra-violent movies were really nothing uncommon. And yet I didn't grow up to be a serial-rapist eating babies for breakfast strangely enough. And this I put down to 2 things

1 exposure to "mature" media isn't as bad for children as people think it is
2 I actually received a good education from my parents that allowed me to put all the "inappropriate" content into a healthy perspective early on and assimilate it with my own mental faculties and form my own damn opinions on it. I feel it ultimately led to a better personal development and made me a better adjusted person than censoring and denying it ever could have.

Finally I feel that proper explanation and education concerning the content, putting in a healthy and mature perspective early on is much better than outright banning the content.
Children are going to be exposed to this kind of stuff. On the street, the internet, some randomly discarded magazine... whatever. It will happen, and since these things are never put in the correct light for them by their parents, they could then do some of the damage everyone is so worried about.

You teach your kid how to cross the street, despite it being dangerous, so he can actually better avoid the danger when you won't be holding his hand. What exactly makes "mature" content any different? Why not gradually prepare your kid and educate him on the matter so he can be better prepared to understand and assimilate the content when it does show up?

Sure, that doesn't mean forcing 6-year-olds to watch a full gruesome decapitation, or a 6-hooker anal spectacular, because that might just really scar them for life. But a gradual approach to normal mature content might just make them better prepared for when they will watch that stuff at 7, on the internet, while the parents are asleep.

Yatzee, I will never forgive you for making me Google "A Serbian Film". My mind is forever scared. Why in the hell would anyone make a movie like that!!!!!!!!

Have to actually SEEN this disgusting film?!

General Vagueness:
I hadn't heard of A Serbian Movie before... so of course I Googled it... does anyone have some mind bleach?

If you ever find any give me some!

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