Trailers: Star Wars: The Old Republic: E3 2011

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Clonekiller:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:
Either i am going insane or the hype is blinding; because i see WoW on all but the story stuff in that game.

Just dosen't do it for me.

Will TOR play like WoW? Yes. Does the graphical style resemble WoW? Yes. Are there numerous subtle differences that will make it different than WoW, as a game all it's own? Yes. TOR might be a standard MMO, but it's the subtle things (Reactive combat, full voiceover, AI party members, ranged-based tanks, etc) that make the game different, and in many ways, better.

P.S. Which is better? A time-tested successful game engine, like WoW, or an original yet failed game engine, like SWG?

For the record, the only reason SWG failed is because LucasArts tried to turn it into WoW. It was pretty healthy before that.

Not saying the same would happen to TOR, since it's built from the ground up like that but still it's something to consider.

AlternatePFG:
For the record, the only reason SWG failed is because LucasArts tried to turn it into WoW. It was pretty healthy before that.

Not saying the same would happen to TOR, since it's built from the ground up like that but still it's something to consider.

It was bleeding subs even before those updates hit it. There's way too much nostalgia around for SWG, it's nowhere near as good as most of it's fans make it out to be.

BoredDragon:
the game's interface is nearly copy-pasted from WoW, and (for some reason) I noticed that the experience points are the also the same.

idk, maybe there is more to the dialogue trees that I'm missing and hopefully the combat differentiates more from WoW than what I think. I hope this game does better than what I'm currently expecting

I played SWTOR at Pax East 2011, and i can honestly tell you that the combat system is very fast paced that will keep your fingers at the keyboard at all times (no auto-attack which is awesome). Each class performances a lot differently then another and you actually feel like whatever role/class you take is important to any group you join or any quest you do. I can't say the same at all in WoW for classes like Hunter (worse PVP class in any MMO game ever), Warrior, pretty much any melee DPS class and classes like Paladin, Priest and Mages *cough all casters cough* being over powered as hell. I did not feel that way with any of the classes that i have played in SWTOR.

I'm excited for the game, but I'm torn. On the one hand I'm getting sick of all these these trailers and by Zeus have they made a lot of trailers. On the other hand I don't want another SWG, a buggy nightmare people only stick with because of the Star Wars spectacle.

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

Clonekiller:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:
Either i am going insane or the hype is blinding; because i see WoW on all but the story stuff in that game.

Just dosen't do it for me.

Will TOR play like WoW? Yes. Does the graphical style resemble WoW? Yes. Are there numerous subtle differences that will make it different than WoW, as a game all it's own? Yes. TOR might be a standard MMO, but it's the subtle things (Reactive combat, full voiceover, AI party members, ranged-based tanks, etc) that make the game different, and in many ways, better.

P.S. Which is better? A time-tested successful game engine, like WoW, or an original yet failed game engine, like SWG?

1. Nice calling in another post out of context. But for the record SWG had its own issues. But i interpreted what you just said(aside from being posted in malice) as "Do you think all MMOs should play like WoW or SWG?"
2. Define reactive combat because i can't get anyone to do that for me.
3. AI party members that function like pets/ With their own skills, talents, and abilities you control and guide?
4. So what ranged tank it still sticks to the trinity formula.
5. Full voice over still dosen't do it for me. Though it is good that we would hear something other than "Hello" or some variation there of.

1. Seems like an issue between you and him so I'll decline to comment here.
2. From what I've heard there will be no auto-attacks. Also, characters will block and dodge attacks for a much more interesting and cinematic look. No standing and beating on each other with sticks.
3. I'm still a little skeptical of the companions, but I'm slowly being convinced. The idea that I can bring one in to replace that guy in a party that we're short seems like a nice touch.
4. Almost every class can fulfill two roles in most any spec. Literally, 4 of the 8 classes can tank, heal, or dps. Just look at the Sith Inquistor. As an Assassin, they can stealth to attack enemies and be a skilled melee fighter and even act as an avoidance type tank. As a Sorcerer, you can use the force to act as a ranged dps attacking foes with Force Lightning, or as a healer. And let's not forget abilities like Death Field that allows them to attack up to 3 enemies and heal themselves. Somehow, I don't think any class is going to have problem getting shoehorned.
Also, you're not the first person I have heard make this complaint about the trinity, so I now challenge you to find a new formula. (sorry, nothing personal, you're just unlucky)
5. I read on Penny Arcade that they have been in the beta for a month. And they had soem good things to say. Namely that in games like WoW, you quest so you can get to the point where you can play the game. In TOR, questing is playing the game. It was actually very positive and alleviated some of my fears, and rather than summarize the whole thing, I'll just a link for you.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2011/6/22/

Quaxar:
1:36 - my god, Darth Maul has stumbled into the prop collection from Tron.

Also, he stood in line 4 times? I mean I understand, it's just I think I would never be able to survive that. I stood in line for the first-ever Diablo 3 beta and I would never have thought about doing it again no matter the game quality.

Yes but you underestimate the power of the force. It was strong in that one.

While the voices and deeper stories for an MMO are fantastic, I worry the effort put into writing, voice casting, and then creating them in 3D within the game engine itself will reduce the overall content in the game.

Very little actual ingame footage shown. Trailers of all the pre-rendered video sequences don't count, you can do stuff in those that can't be done in game.

On the plus side, I like that this will be a solo friendly game, or have they cut that part out already?

This game will make a big splash on release, sell a lot for a week, the hardcore Star Wars fans will lap it up, then it will nose-dive hard, turning into just another MMO no one cares about bar the core players - however few of them there are. Server merges in this game's future, yes. Many server merges.

Calling it. Just like Duke.

I'd much prefer them to keep doing the cinematic trailers - I look forward to a new one far more than i look forward to the actual game, which has yet to impress me.

Also, can someone just confirm - the commando and the jedi that escape in "Return" are the same two that fight in the second video, right? And the sith is the same from both the others (but before his face was burned - which I guess happened in the second?).

Ugh, I really wish I could bring myself to try this game. Maybe if they have a demo period I will try it out. After seeing this vid and noticing that it is another hotkey MMO. That has 3 skill trees and with PvP being warzones that are copied from WoW and WAR. Also instances and raids -_- so more grinding for gear to grind for gear to grind for gear...

I just can't do it again. Sure its different setting, time, and place, but I mean really? Take this for example. You play Counter Strike and you get bored of it. A friend comes along and says here try my new game out. You play it and its Counter Strike, but with different textures and a new feature added. Like now you have vehicles. So you play it to death and you get bored of it. Another friend asks you to play his game. Sweet! It's counter strike again, but with better graphics and now you have vehicles and a jet pack. Wooo! rinse and repeat. Hopefully this will be the last game of this washed out series.

Just throwing this out there, take from it what you will... a few people are calling this game a WoW clone, it's not a direct clone, I would say it takes what works, which is what Bioware are great at, but not a clone. Besides which, many of th modern classics do this.

I give you, as an example, God of War.

God of War took almost all it's mechanics, gameplay etc. from Devil May Cry, even right down to collecting red orbs and using them to buy abilities, and yet it's more highly praised than Devil May Cry. So who cares about this? No-one.

There's an interesting theory that everything is rehashed, that all gameplay has been borrowed from somewhere. WoW itself borrows alot from Diablo. True, this is the same company, but I would guess that even games like Ultima inspired certain aspect of Diablo itself. Unless it's a 100% rip off (which, since Bioware have stated many, many times they want to emphasise story, we're pretty sure it's not) then I don't see any problem with this.

Oh and I might also add that items, as far as I'm aware, are reflected by your level, rather than grinding for them. Just another thing to consider.

*sigh* Star Wars fans.

cieply:
Well that was a balanced recount of opinions may I say!

The Escapist, masking advertisments as media/news coverage since payed reviewes were invented!

Its a video released by EA. So yeah.

BoredDragon:
the game's interface is nearly copy-pasted from WoW, and (for some reason) I noticed that the experience points are the also the same.

Hardly an exact match, although of course there will be similarities. I've played hundreds of games with a similar interface - its used because it works. Its a GUI for goodness sake; no point in reinventing the wheel when what exists is the most accessible and best functioning.

008Zulu:
Very little actual ingame footage shown. Trailers of all the pre-rendered video sequences don't count, you can do stuff in those that can't be done in game.

On the plus side, I like that this will be a solo friendly game, or have they cut that part out already?

There's probably hours worth of gameplay floating around online, only takes a quick search. And yes, they're still focusing on a strong singleplayer experience.

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

Clonekiller:

Will TOR play like WoW? Yes. Does the graphical style resemble WoW? Yes. Are there numerous subtle differences that will make it different than WoW, as a game all it's own? Yes. TOR might be a standard MMO, but it's the subtle things (Reactive combat, full voiceover, AI party members, ranged-based tanks, etc) that make the game different, and in many ways, better.

P.S. Which is better? A time-tested successful game engine, like WoW, or an original yet failed game engine, like SWG?

1. Nice calling in another post out of context. But for the record SWG had its own issues. But i interpreted what you just said(aside from being posted in malice) as "Do you think all MMOs should play like WoW or SWG?"
2. Define reactive combat because i can't get anyone to do that for me.
3. AI party members that function like pets/ With their own skills, talents, and abilities you control and guide?
4. So what ranged tank it still sticks to the trinity formula.
5. Full voice over still dosen't do it for me. Though it is good that we would hear something other than "Hello" or some variation there of.

Reactive Combat: The light sabers move to meet each other as well as the blaster bolts they are deflecting. Not a perfect system, but it looks a whole lot better than most other MMOs.

Bioware was in an interesting position with this game. Could they have sunk a ton of time and resources into into creating a new and original game engine? Of course. (See Star Trek Online) They could have done something like an open-world Vindictus, or maybe something closer to Mass Effect. However, instead of reinventing the wheel, Bioware chose to stick with a game system most every MMO player already knows, and instead spend their budget money on hours of full-orchestra scores, voice actors, party members that function more like AI controlled classes than pets, quest lines that are a bit more epic than "kill 10 pigs", and so on. Is it "just another MMO"? You betcha. However, is that sole fact enough to condemn the game, before it even comes out? I must ask, to anyone who might read this, what exactly were you expecting?

P.S. Cause making valid points and asking valid questions = malice. (Sarcasm, in case you were wondering)

Susurrus:
I'd much prefer them to keep doing the cinematic trailers - I look forward to a new one far more than i look forward to the actual game, which has yet to impress me.

Also, can someone just confirm - the commando and the jedi that escape in "Return" are the same two that fight in the second video, right? And the sith is the same from both the others (but before his face was burned - which I guess happened in the second?).

yep, that unamed trooper also appears in the "Hope" cinmatic trailer. The woman is Satele Shan descendant of Bastila Shan and *supposedly* Revan from KOTOR. The bald sith is Darth Malgus, he is in every CGI trailer. The trailers are going backwards chronologically, with this one taking place first, followed by "Hope" then "Deceived"

008Zulu:
Very little actual ingame footage shown. Trailers of all the pre-rendered video sequences don't count, you can do stuff in those that can't be done in game.

On the plus side, I like that this will be a solo friendly game, or have they cut that part out already?

yes and no. While i think the game WILL be solo friendly, the devs have stated that you will get a lot more done with other people than you would alone. In a game like WoW, if you had a full group questing you could expect to have to grind a lot more mobs to get quests done, not so in SWTOR as the quests are designed in a such a way that that can be completed by both groups AND solo. They announced "Heroic Zones" which are sort of like open world group dungeons, they can be found on every planet and are extremely difficult, but offer better rewards. That's on top of things like flashpoints, and other group quests. I think the big thing for most of the group content is that it CAN be done solo, even flashpoints, it's just going to be a lot easier to get done in a group of 4.

Clonekiller:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

Clonekiller:

Will TOR play like WoW? Yes. Does the graphical style resemble WoW? Yes. Are there numerous subtle differences that will make it different than WoW, as a game all it's own? Yes. TOR might be a standard MMO, but it's the subtle things (Reactive combat, full voiceover, AI party members, ranged-based tanks, etc) that make the game different, and in many ways, better.

P.S. Which is better? A time-tested successful game engine, like WoW, or an original yet failed game engine, like SWG?

1. Nice calling in another post out of context. But for the record SWG had its own issues. But i interpreted what you just said(aside from being posted in malice) as "Do you think all MMOs should play like WoW or SWG?"
2. Define reactive combat because i can't get anyone to do that for me.
3. AI party members that function like pets/ With their own skills, talents, and abilities you control and guide?
4. So what ranged tank it still sticks to the trinity formula.
5. Full voice over still dosen't do it for me. Though it is good that we would hear something other than "Hello" or some variation there of.

Reactive Combat: The light sabers move to meet each other as well as the blaster bolts they are deflecting. Not a perfect system, but it looks a whole lot better than most other MMOs.

Bioware was in an interesting position with this game. Could they have sunk a ton of time and resources into into creating a new and original game engine? Of course. (See Star Trek Online) They could have done something like an open-world Vindictus, or maybe something closer to Mass Effect. However, instead of reinventing the wheel, Bioware chose to stick with a game system most every MMO player already knows, and instead spend their budget money on hours of full-orchestra scores, voice actors, party members that function more like AI controlled classes than pets, quest lines that are a bit more epic than "kill 10 pigs", and so on. Is it "just another MMO"? You betcha. However, is that sole fact enough to condemn the game, before it even comes out? I must ask, to anyone who might read this, what exactly were you expecting?

P.S. Cause making valid points and asking valid questions = malice. (Sarcasm, in case you were wondering)

And as fart as i know ONLY lightsabers connect. Bolts hit the lightsaber, swords and sabers hit the saber, but a monsters claw that gets blocked won't. So the part they expected more people to play got that. And the auto attack bit i still see no issue with but understand. In most hotkey MMos you spam abilities so fast that auto attacks have no chance of getting off. Why"? Because the individual attack feels worthless and unimpressive.

They could have made a new and better engine for other MMOs to go off of but they stuck with a 5 year old model. Likely at EA's request. They still follow you around, they have their own roles(similar to pets as in bear is tank, cat is dps so on). Same mechanic except they have actual classes. I expected them to innovate like they said with next gen MMO. But for innovation they substitute features such as a higher quality orchestra, LIMITED reactive combat, and AI controlled companions that AREN'T pets in any way shape or form in how they function. Instead i see WoW with an orchestra for every moment, full voice overs, and

And it looked pretty aggressive to take something out of context from a different thread, post it in this one and act like it proved something. Asking if i preferred they make a failed engine was just a smart ass thing to say.

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

They could have made a new and better engine for other MMOs to go off of but they stuck with a 5 year old model.

Which is made even worse by the fact that IT DOESN'T FIT THE STAR WARS SETTING.

Seriously, when have you seen a Jedi sit back and cast force spells exclusively? That's right, never. Star Wars doesn't fit the 'Tank, Healer, DPS' model and it makes no sense for them to use it.

Instead of saying "We have a great setting and story, let's design game mechanics to enhance this" BioWare resigned themselves to "We have a great setting and story, let's see how we can shoehorn a combat system designed for a completely different setting into it".

It's boring, lazy and impressively unimaginative. I expected more from a BioWare.

Oh I remember, it's not actually BioWare making the game! They are just sticking their logo on it because BioWare is writing the story.

is that a picture of Revan and Malak in the thumbnail?
okay, on topic im not an MMO kinda guy, but i think i could be for this even if everyone's saying it looks dull and WoW-cloney.

fundayz:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

They could have made a new and better engine for other MMOs to go off of but they stuck with a 5 year old model.

Which is made even worse by the fact that IT DOESN'T FIT THE STAR WARS SETTING.

Seriously, when have you seen a Jedi sit back and cast force spells exclusively? That's right, never. Star Wars doesn't fit the 'Tank, Healer, DPS' model and it makes no sense for them to use it.

Instead of saying "We have a great setting and story, let's design game mechanics to enhance this" BioWare resigned themselves to "We have a great setting and story, let's see how we can shoehorn a combat system designed for a completely different setting into it".

It's boring, lazy and impressively unimaginative. I expected more from a BioWare.

Oh I remember, it's not actually BioWare making the game! They are just sticking their logo on it because BioWare is writing the story.

Now i know EA is calling the shots but don't they have a bunch of Mythic devs working in it? Is Mythic still around even?

Edit: wikipedia says they still exist but the merge for EAs MMO department must have pulled everyone that wasn't tied down and and moved them. So i guess EA is not putting Mythics name on it because they think that letting customers know Mythic is working on it would recall Warhammer online and scare off customers. Reasonable practice but if SWTOR dosen't get the billions EA wants i can see a new favored slave in EAs eyes.

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

Now i know EA is calling the shots but don't they have a bunch of Mythic devs working in it? Is Mythic still around even?

Edit: wikipedia says they still exist but the merge for EAs MMO department must have pulled everyone that wasn't tied down and and moved them. So i guess EA is not putting Mythics name on it because they think that letting customers know Mythic is working on it would recall Warhammer online and scare off customers. Reasonable practice but if SWTOR dosen't get the billions EA wants i can see a new favored slave in EAs eyes.

The team making SWTOR, BioWare Austin, was made from scratch for the sole purpose of making SWTOR. The whole team consists of people from all over the MMO scene, from Mythic's Warhammer to Star Trek Online.

Their lead PvP designer is Gabe Amatangelo, the guy responsible for WAR's City Sieges and Scenarios. You know? The systems that had to be constantly reworked because they didn't work...

There are very few actual BioWare employees working on the title aside from their (very talented) writers and some of their top guys(which mainly oversee production).

That's why Daniel Erickson, their writing director, is their poster boy even though he is not actually a designer.

fundayz:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

Now i know EA is calling the shots but don't they have a bunch of Mythic devs working in it? Is Mythic still around even?

Edit: wikipedia says they still exist but the merge for EAs MMO department must have pulled everyone that wasn't tied down and and moved them. So i guess EA is not putting Mythics name on it because they think that letting customers know Mythic is working on it would recall Warhammer online and scare off customers. Reasonable practice but if SWTOR dosen't get the billions EA wants i can see a new favored slave in EAs eyes.

The team making SWTOR, BioWare Austin, was made from scratch for the sole purpose of making SWTOR. The whole team consists of people from all over the MMO scene, from Mythic's Warhammer to Star Trek Online.

There are very few actual BioWare employees working on the title aside from their very talented) writers and some of their top guys(which mainly oversee production).

That's why Daniel Erickson, their writing director, is their poster boy even though he is not actually a designer.

Interesting. So its only Bioware in name and writing in charge of this and technically BIOWARE wont be to blame for any failures on it as a whole. But because its name is on the front to score points for marketing reasons guess who gets blamed for it.

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

Interesting. So its only Bioware in name and writing in charge of this and technically BIOWARE wont be to blame for any failures on it as a whole. But because its name is on the front to score points for marketing reasons guess who gets blamed for it.

Pretty much, although they are taking the lead and agreeing to put their logo on the box so it is still their responsibility for the game to do good.

A while ago, there was a full 1h30 minutes of pure gameplay showcasing SW:TOR. It showed your ascention from a Padawan to a full Jedi Knight (including making your own Lightsabre). This is basically a Star Wars fan's dream come true, and honestly; those of you who are badmouthing it have no idea what you're talking about.

YES there are similarities between TOR and WoW. They're both MMORPGS, and TOR took the cookie cutter MMORPG and made Solo levelling FUN (you actually follow a storyline). The voice acting has much more impact on the game than you think. The only thing that has yet to be seen is the endgame content and PVP.

That being said, while playing TOR you WILL notice a lot of parallels between TOR and KOTOR. You feel as though you're in the KOTOR world what with the voice acting and unique storylines for each character/area. That's the beauty of the game, and if you guys doubt the impact it actually has on the gameplay, then there's nothing we can do to convince you otherwise aside from getting you to play the game.

Zer_:
A while ago, there was a full 1h30 minutes of pure gameplay showcasing SW:TOR. It showed your ascention from a Padawan to a full Jedi Knight (including making your own Lightsabre). This is basically a Star Wars fan's dream come true, and honestly; those of you who are badmouthing it have no idea what you're talking about.

YES there are similarities between TOR and WoW. They're both MMORPGS, and TOR took the cookie cutter MMORPG and made Solo levelling FUN (you actually follow a storyline). The voice acting has much more impact on the game than you think. The only thing that has yet to be seen is the endgame content and PVP.

That being said, while playing TOR you WILL notice a lot of parallels between TOR and KOTOR. You feel as though you're in the KOTOR world what with the voice acting and unique storylines for each character/area. That's the beauty of the game, and if you guys doubt the impact it actually has on the gameplay, then there's nothing we can do to convince you otherwise aside from getting you to play the game.

I shouldn't have to be a Star Wars fan to enjoy the game.

I've seen the video and everything aside from dialogue and some neat, if clunky, animations has "Generic MMO" written all over it. Unless you've played the game, you know exactly as much as we do.

I'm not going to deny that better storytelling and full voiceover WILL impact gameplay, but is it really going to be enough for those of us that are bored with the same old gameplay mechanics?

The hard trinity is still the same, the gear grind is still the same, the questing mechanics are still the same, the static combat is still the same, the ACTUAL GAMEPLAY is still the same.

I already have WoW and WAR, I'm not going to pay $50-60 + $15/month just to get a decent story (because while BioWare tells good stories, they are quite predictable).

I'm still a bit peeved off by the portrayal of smugglers and bounty hunters having a side.

But at least it's nice to see that they enjoyed it!

Nouw:
I'm still a bit peeved off by the portrayal of smugglers and bounty hunters having a side.

There is an actual lore reasons why this is the case:


RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

And as fart as i know ONLY lightsabers connect. Bolts hit the lightsaber, swords and sabers hit the saber, but a monsters claw that gets blocked won't. So the part they expected more people to play got that. And the auto attack bit i still see no issue with but understand. In most hotkey MMos you spam abilities so fast that auto attacks have no chance of getting off. Why"? Because the individual attack feels worthless and unimpressive.

They could have made a new and better engine for other MMOs to go off of but they stuck with a 5 year old model. Likely at EA's request. They still follow you around, they have their own roles(similar to pets as in bear is tank, cat is dps so on). Same mechanic except they have actual classes. I expected them to innovate like they said with next gen MMO. But for innovation they substitute features such as a higher quality orchestra, LIMITED reactive combat, and AI controlled companions that AREN'T pets in any way shape or form in how they function. Instead i see WoW with an orchestra for every moment, full voice overs, and

And it looked pretty aggressive to take something out of context from a different thread, post it in this one and act like it proved something. Asking if i preferred they make a failed engine was just a smart ass thing to say.

So, in answer to my question, you expected "something" different. No idea what. Just "something". For the most part, I was in the same boat. I expected "something" different. However, despite being a disappointment to my expectations, TOR looks like it might show real promise. I just find it interesting that so many people, probably about half the people I see commenting on anything TOR, are willing to condemn the game, when all we have to go off of is some trailers and a 20 minute quest line at E3.

On the other hand, I agree. BioWare and Lucas Arts should have come up with their own design for TOR instead of ripping off WoW. But why stop with TOR? Let's hit other games too. Let's crucify Homefront for ripping off Call of Duty. Let's take down Brink cause it copies Team Fortress 2. Best of all, lets get a crusade going against WoW because it made buckets of money by ripping off Ultima Online and EverQuest...

See, the problem with condemning one game based solely on it's design, is that you must do the same with other games as well, or risk becoming a hypocrite. But when you do, perfectly great, exiting, and innovative games get shoved under the rug, simply because the engine was "a rip off". The same applies for books, movies, and music. Do you have any idea how many fantasy stories are rip-offs of Lord of the Rings? Ever notice how many movies are simply rip-offs of books or older movies? Do you know how many bands start up by ripping off the music style of another band? The answer: A lot. Many mass mediums draw heavy inspiration from older sources. The key is to judge a game based on it's own merits, leaving your own preconceptions at the door. (Go watch a few episodes of Extra Credits if you don't believe me.) I'll be perfectly happy to berate TOR for it's faults when it comes out. Until then, I'll be willing to give it a chance, and see the good things that come out of it. Not just the bad.

P.S. Perhaps I shall elaborate on my original question: Which do you think is better? A proven-successful engine that you learn little from, like WoW, or a failed engine, that serves to teach other developers fruitful lessons, like SWG? (Still waiting on an answer to that question by the way.)

P.P.S. Lightsabers connecting with claws? Really? It seems to me they tried that in the movies, and the claws didn't fare so well.

P.P.P.S. For the record, the post I originally quoted was in the same thread, a couple posts up from my original quote. SWG seemed like an obvious example, seeing as how it's a defunct Star Wars MMO. Sounds like fair game to me.

P.P.P.P.S. Thanks for the discussion. I haven't had this much fun on a forum in a long time.

Clonekiller:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

And as fart as i know ONLY lightsabers connect. Bolts hit the lightsaber, swords and sabers hit the saber, but a monsters claw that gets blocked won't. So the part they expected more people to play got that. And the auto attack bit i still see no issue with but understand. In most hotkey MMos you spam abilities so fast that auto attacks have no chance of getting off. Why"? Because the individual attack feels worthless and unimpressive.

They could have made a new and better engine for other MMOs to go off of but they stuck with a 5 year old model. Likely at EA's request. They still follow you around, they have their own roles(similar to pets as in bear is tank, cat is dps so on). Same mechanic except they have actual classes. I expected them to innovate like they said with next gen MMO. But for innovation they substitute features such as a higher quality orchestra, LIMITED reactive combat, and AI controlled companions that AREN'T pets in any way shape or form in how they function. Instead i see WoW with an orchestra for every moment, full voice overs, and

And it looked pretty aggressive to take something out of context from a different thread, post it in this one and act like it proved something. Asking if i preferred they make a failed engine was just a smart ass thing to say.

So, in answer to my question, you expected "something" different. No idea what. Just "something". For the most part, I was in the same boat. I expected "something" different. However, despite being a disappointment to my expectations, TOR looks like it might show real promise. I just find it interesting that so many people, probably about half the people I see commenting on anything TOR, are willing to condemn the game, when all we have to go off of is some trailers and a 20 minute quest line at E3.

On the other hand, I agree. BioWare and Lucas Arts should have come up with their own design for TOR instead of ripping off WoW. But why stop with TOR? Let's hit other games too. Let's crucify Homefront for ripping off Call of Duty. Let's take down Brink cause it copies Team Fortress 2. Best of all, lets get a crusade going against WoW because it made buckets of money by ripping off Ultima Online and EverQuest...

See, the problem with condemning one game based solely on it's design, is that you must do the same with other games as well, or risk becoming a hypocrite. But when you do, perfectly great, exiting, and innovative games get shoved under the rug, simply because the engine was "a rip off". The same applies for books, movies, and music. Do you have any idea how many fantasy stories are rip-offs of Lord of the Rings? Ever notice how many movies are simply rip-offs of books or older movies? Do you know how many bands start up by ripping off the music style of another band? The answer: A lot. Many mass mediums draw heavy inspiration from older sources. The key is to judge a game based on it's own merits, leaving your own preconceptions at the door. (Go watch a few episodes of Extra Credits if you don't believe me.) I'll be perfectly happy to berate TOR for it's faults when it comes out. Until then, I'll be willing to give it a chance, and see the good things that come out of it. Not just the bad.

P.S. Perhaps I shall elaborate on my original question: Which do you think is better? A proven-successful engine that you learn little from, like WoW, or a failed engine, that serves to teach other developers fruitful lessons, like SWG? (Still waiting on an answer to that question by the way.)

P.P.S. Lightsabers connecting with claws? Really? It seems to me they tried that in the movies, and the claws didn't fare so well.

P.P.P.S. For the record, the post I originally quoted was in the same thread, a couple posts up from my original quote. SWG seemed like an obvious example, seeing as how it's a defunct Star Wars MMO. Sounds like fair game to me.

P.P.P.P.S. Thanks for the discussion. I haven't had this much fun on a forum in a long time.

No you brought up a statement that i liked SWG when it was new from a different thread and applied it to this one in a bastardized question of "Would i prefer they make a failure of an engine or use the same one". But i can see this is going to be an exercise in lack of reason since i saw some of your examples so lets get it over with.

We would not crucify those other games that copy a business model or gameplay but if the medium has progressed almost 7 years since the base game they are copying was released its time to move on to a new model instead of wallowing in capitalism with failing models. Understand? When you have copied it so much over almost a decade a change in the system of how MMOs are made and how gameplay is should happen. As for ripping things off WoW made a new MMO, made it with a better quality and got rich for it. Don't hate them for that hate the ones that saw what they did, decided to copy WOW with the intent of copying WoW. They didn't copy WOW to copy everquest or Ultima they did it to copy WOW and that's what pisses me off. Every dev and publisher that copies WoW with the intent of doing them in, making the same money, or whatever is throwing a spanner into the progress of the medium. No that's not to say they shouldn't copy aspects and mechanics from the game such as a modified dungeon finder, better gui8ld systems, and so on. See the problem with condemning a game that is staying in line with the others? See the problem with spouting off names like they can be applied here?(though i will admit shooters need to alternate away from modern day combat). But about your example; did you know you only brought up failed games for those examples? Why not call out Battlefield BC2-BF3, and medal of honor? Why not call out... Can't rightly think of any TF2 similar games that don't suck. But the point is while the games industry loves repeating itself we have almost hit the 10 year mark and i think its about time we change direction with MMO's. Far as i can tell shooters will burn out sooner because more are getting released. At a shooter update each year it will only be a few more years before someone goes and makes a different era shooter. MMOs take years to develop and we need to be harder on them for stagnating because their evolution will take longer if we don't. Now it won't be over night but its going to go slower if devs and publishers keep this up.

For the record NEVER take me for one of the sons of bitches that wants the industry to stagnate with an endless supply of the same game with a different story or title. NEVER you got that?
Onto the lightsaber vs claw comment i was saying that because this seems to be a fan service. Reflecting bolts and blocking certain blows is likely just that and why it received so little attention.

Back on copying and what not. Name me 5 fantasy settings that copy direct from Tolkien what can't be attributed to folklore Tolkien used. Bands start using other peoples music but they move to their own likely over the course of a year; a game developer learns how to make games and then continues on to the same thing that's been made for the past 7 years? Many mediums draw inspiration from older sources yes but they don't let themselves stagnate as often as we have. Musicians(even though i think was a shit example to begin with) have broken off from their original music and made entirely new genres in a relatively short period. Us? Well over 10 years we kept making the same basic game.

Also unless Blizzard owns the engine its not a rip off but using it is still throwing a spanner into the evolution of the industry. A spanner that should be used to engineer games that move the industry ahead.

And to your original question i would prefer they make a new engine with the same production quality as they would to do anythign else. A failed engine to EA would be a failure and not something to learn from. A good well made engine that changed the way MMOs look, feel, and play would have been a lot better for the industry... If EA wouldn't copyright it and refuse to sell it for fear of competition.

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

No you brought up a statement that i liked SWG when it was new from a different thread and applied it to this one in a bastardized question of "Would i prefer they make a failure of an engine or use the same one". But i can see this is going to be an exercise in lack of reason since i saw some of your examples so lets get it over with.

We would not crucify those other games that copy a business model or gameplay but if the medium has progressed almost 7 years since the base game they are copying was released its time to move on to a new model instead of wallowing in capitalism with failing models. Understand? When you have copied it so much over almost a decade a change in the system of how MMOs are made and how gameplay is should happen. As for ripping things off WoW made a new MMO, made it with a better quality and got rich for it. Don't hate them for that hate the ones that saw what they did, decided to copy WOW with the intent of copying WoW. They didn't copy WOW to copy everquest or Ultima they did it to copy WOW and that's what pisses me off. Every dev and publisher that copies WoW with the intent of doing them in, making the same money, or whatever is throwing a spanner into the progress of the medium. No that's not to say they shouldn't copy aspects and mechanics from the game such as a modified dungeon finder, better gui8ld systems, and so on. See the problem with condemning a game that is staying in line with the others? See the problem with spouting off names like they can be applied here?(though i will admit shooters need to alternate away from modern day combat). But about your example; did you know you only brought up failed games for those examples? Why not call out Battlefield BC2-BF3, and medal of honor? Why not call out... Can't rightly think of any TF2 similar games that don't suck. But the point is while the games industry loves repeating itself we have almost hit the 10 year mark and i think its about time we change direction with MMO's. Far as i can tell shooters will burn out sooner because more are getting released. At a shooter update each year it will only be a few more years before someone goes and makes a different era shooter. MMOs take years to develop and we need to be harder on them for stagnating because their evolution will take longer if we don't. Now it won't be over night but its going to go slower if devs and publishers keep this up.

For the record NEVER take me for one of the sons of bitches that wants the industry to stagnate with an endless supply of the same game with a different story or title. NEVER you got that?
Onto the lightsaber vs claw comment i was saying that because this seems to be a fan service. Reflecting bolts and blocking certain blows is likely just that and why it received so little attention.

Back on copying and what not. Name me 5 fantasy settings that copy direct from Tolkien what can't be attributed to folklore Tolkien used. Bands start using other peoples music but they move to their own likely over the course of a year; a game developer learns how to make games and then continues on to the same thing that's been made for the past 7 years? Many mediums draw inspiration from older sources yes but they don't let themselves stagnate as often as we have. Musicians(even though i think was a shit example to begin with) have broken off from their original music and made entirely new genres in a relatively short period. Us? Well over 10 years we kept making the same basic game.

Also unless Blizzard owns the engine its not a rip off but using it is still throwing a spanner into the evolution of the industry. A spanner that should be used to engineer games that move the industry ahead.

And to your original question i would prefer they make a new engine with the same production quality as they would to do anythign else. A failed engine to EA would be a failure and not something to learn from. A good well made engine that changed the way MMOs look, feel, and play would have been a lot better for the industry... If EA wouldn't copyright it and refuse to sell it for fear of competition.

Okay, fine. Nit-pick my examples and miss the point. I'm not trying to say TOR will be good because it's a WoW clone. Heck, the WoW engine might make it downright terrible. My point is, hold off on the judgement until we actually have a game to look at.

As for the WoW copying thing, I submit an example: I played WoW for about 4 years. I have played Lord of the Rings Online for an equal amount of time. Despite the fact that LOTRO is a "WoW clone", it plays very differently from WoW. It has a very different FEEL to it. (Meaning, it gives you the player a different experience.) In addition, during the time since it has been released, it has come out with many original concepts and engines that have further differentiated it from WoW. (And before you say anything about it, I might point out that it went F2P by choice, rather than necessity. The move tripled their income as well.) As a result, despite being a "WoW clone", LOTRO has become a game all its own, with it's own merits and faults.

Will TOR also become a great game all it's own? I have no idea. However, based on what I have seen thus far, it has potential that could easily become great systems, especially given time for patches and expansions. It could also fall flat on it's face and die within three years. I can't say one or the other. One thing I do know, is that berating it for having an unoriginal engine before it even comes out will do no good to anyone.

P.S. My apologies. I was unaware that SWG meant that much to you.

Clonekiller:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:

No you brought up a statement that i liked SWG when it was new from a different thread and applied it to this one in a bastardized question of "Would i prefer they make a failure of an engine or use the same one". But i can see this is going to be an exercise in lack of reason since i saw some of your examples so lets get it over with.

We would not crucify those other games that copy a business model or gameplay but if the medium has progressed almost 7 years since the base game they are copying was released its time to move on to a new model instead of wallowing in capitalism with failing models. Understand? When you have copied it so much over almost a decade a change in the system of how MMOs are made and how gameplay is should happen. As for ripping things off WoW made a new MMO, made it with a better quality and got rich for it. Don't hate them for that hate the ones that saw what they did, decided to copy WOW with the intent of copying WoW. They didn't copy WOW to copy everquest or Ultima they did it to copy WOW and that's what pisses me off. Every dev and publisher that copies WoW with the intent of doing them in, making the same money, or whatever is throwing a spanner into the progress of the medium. No that's not to say they shouldn't copy aspects and mechanics from the game such as a modified dungeon finder, better gui8ld systems, and so on. See the problem with condemning a game that is staying in line with the others? See the problem with spouting off names like they can be applied here?(though i will admit shooters need to alternate away from modern day combat). But about your example; did you know you only brought up failed games for those examples? Why not call out Battlefield BC2-BF3, and medal of honor? Why not call out... Can't rightly think of any TF2 similar games that don't suck. But the point is while the games industry loves repeating itself we have almost hit the 10 year mark and i think its about time we change direction with MMO's. Far as i can tell shooters will burn out sooner because more are getting released. At a shooter update each year it will only be a few more years before someone goes and makes a different era shooter. MMOs take years to develop and we need to be harder on them for stagnating because their evolution will take longer if we don't. Now it won't be over night but its going to go slower if devs and publishers keep this up.

For the record NEVER take me for one of the sons of bitches that wants the industry to stagnate with an endless supply of the same game with a different story or title. NEVER you got that?
Onto the lightsaber vs claw comment i was saying that because this seems to be a fan service. Reflecting bolts and blocking certain blows is likely just that and why it received so little attention.

Back on copying and what not. Name me 5 fantasy settings that copy direct from Tolkien what can't be attributed to folklore Tolkien used. Bands start using other peoples music but they move to their own likely over the course of a year; a game developer learns how to make games and then continues on to the same thing that's been made for the past 7 years? Many mediums draw inspiration from older sources yes but they don't let themselves stagnate as often as we have. Musicians(even though i think was a shit example to begin with) have broken off from their original music and made entirely new genres in a relatively short period. Us? Well over 10 years we kept making the same basic game.

Also unless Blizzard owns the engine its not a rip off but using it is still throwing a spanner into the evolution of the industry. A spanner that should be used to engineer games that move the industry ahead.

And to your original question i would prefer they make a new engine with the same production quality as they would to do anythign else. A failed engine to EA would be a failure and not something to learn from. A good well made engine that changed the way MMOs look, feel, and play would have been a lot better for the industry... If EA wouldn't copyright it and refuse to sell it for fear of competition.

Okay, fine. Nit-pick my examples and miss the point. I'm not trying to say TOR will be good because it's a WoW clone. Heck, the WoW engine might make it downright terrible. My point is, hold off on the judgement until we actually have a game to look at.

As for the WoW copying thing, I submit an example: I played WoW for about 4 years. I have played Lord of the Rings Online for an equal amount of time. Despite the fact that LOTRO is a "WoW clone", it plays very differently from WoW. It has a very different FEEL to it. (Meaning, it gives you the player a different experience.) In addition, during the time since it has been released, it has come out with many original concepts and engines that have further differentiated it from WoW. (And before you say anything about it, I might point out that it went F2P by choice, rather than necessity. The move tripled their income as well.) As a result, despite being a "WoW clone", LOTRO has become a game all its own, with it's own merits and faults.

Will TOR also become a great game all it's own? I have no idea. However, based on what I have seen thus far, it has potential that could easily become great systems, especially given time for patches and expansions. It could also fall flat on it's face and die within three years. I can't say one or the other. One thing I do know, is that berating it for having an unoriginal engine before it even comes out will do no good to anyone.

P.S. My apologies. I was unaware that SWG meant that much to you.

Alright then lets pick an MMO with the same gameplay as WoW but a lower production value; dosen't make it a good game. I played LoTRO for a while before it went F2P and after and i know that Turbine tripled income afterwards i am one of Turbines most zealous supporters; just not for LoTRO. Even in my year of playing LoTRO i never heard of it being described as a WoW clone; even though the gameplay and questing system is the same(admittedly combat is poor in the sense that it is slow and clunky) yes it gives its own feel but the point still stands that the gameplay caries over and think about what LoTRO could have become had they gone with a different combat system. Yes they made a good deal of original concepts but is anyone copying them? No because it didn't get 12 million subscribers.

I am not saying it will or won't be shit because of its copying WoW combat i am saying that its not goo for the industry, it will hurt sales in the long run(as with most MMOs they will ignore the game after a month and return to a similar system they are established in) as you can see with any number of previous MMOs. Why do these MMOs fall short(WAR, LOTRO, etc) past the poor quality of the combat people got bored pressing a button the entire time to progress through a new game; having already progressed through a similar game of better quality. Their attempt to appease MMO players with hotkey combat just might hurt them even if done properly. I don't care if the over all experience is different, i don't care if i am tanking fro ma distance i only care that while doing these things i have more control of my character; i don't like pressing hotkets anymore.

Will it become a great game? don't care anymore because i am finished with hotkey MMo's. I don't like being separated from character control that way and no matter how much they shake up the blasted trinity, or voice the game i don't care. As far as i am concerned the minute i saw the combat i had seen since 2004(not when MMos were invented just when i discovered it for myself) i lost all interest. You may think i am making a jump to conclusion on the actual quality of it but i am simply going for my personal judgment which is not good, not bad, simply 'Don't give a shit". I don't give the mighty thumbs down of the emperor as if the game is a gladiator in my arena i simply stop caring when a development turn tells me something i don't like.

And jsut for thought i refuse to hold off personal judgment. My personal judgment is that of a consumer; judging if i like what the game iwll be before i buy it is a good thing. The act of using what you know of a game to make the purchase decision is good. Deciding if it has any worth to you is good. Not demanding vindictus gameplay but(quality of combat would be nice though) they could go on and blaze the trail, make a new engine, design a better combat system, and make or break the game on that instead of story. And while hotkey combat may be one of the most prevelent combat modes look at the reason why. Look at every hotkey MMO, its purpose, and why it failed or fell short.

BTW what is the first bit?
image

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:
[quote="Clonekiller" post="6.297618.11876948"][quote="RT-Medic-with-shotgun" post="6.297618.11874271"]

Alright then lets pick an MMO with the same gameplay as WoW but a lower production value; dosen't make it a good game. I played LoTRO for a while before it went F2P and after and i know that Turbine tripled income afterwards i am one of Turbines most zealous supporters; just not for LoTRO. Even in my year of playing LoTRO i never heard of it being described as a WoW clone; even though the gameplay and questing system is the same(admittedly combat is poor in the sense that it is slow and clunky) yes it gives its own feel but the point still stands that the gameplay caries over and think about what LoTRO could have become had they gone with a different combat system. Yes they made a good deal of original concepts but is anyone copying them? No because it didn't get 12 million subscribers.

I am not saying it will or won't be shit because of its copying WoW combat i am saying that its not goo for the industry, it will hurt sales in the long run(as with most MMOs they will ignore the game after a month and return to a similar system they are established in) as you can see with any number of previous MMOs. Why do these MMOs fall short(WAR, LOTRO, etc) past the poor quality of the combat people got bored pressing a button the entire time to progress through a new game; having already progressed through a similar game of better quality. Their attempt to appease MMO players with hotkey combat just might hurt them even if done properly. I don't care if the over all experience is different, i don't care if i am tanking fro ma distance i only care that while doing these things i have more control of my character; i don't like pressing hotkets anymore.

Will it become a great game? don't care anymore because i am finished with hotkey MMo's. I don't like being separated from character control that way and no matter how much they shake up the blasted trinity, or voice the game i don't care. As far as i am concerned the minute i saw the combat i had seen since 2004(not when MMos were invented just when i discovered it for myself) i lost all interest. You may think i am making a jump to conclusion on the actual quality of it but i am simply going for my personal judgment which is not good, not bad, simply 'Don't give a shit". I don't give the mighty thumbs down of the emperor as if the game is a gladiator in my arena i simply stop caring when a development turn tells me something i don't like.

And jsut for thought i refuse to hold off personal judgment. My personal judgment is that of a consumer; judging if i like what the game iwll be before i buy it is a good thing. The act of using what you know of a game to make the purchase decision is good. Deciding if it has any worth to you is good. Not demanding vindictus gameplay but(quality of combat would be nice though) they could go on and blaze the trail, make a new engine, design a better combat system, and make or break the game on that instead of story. And while hotkey combat may be one of the most prevelent combat modes look at the reason why. Look at every hotkey MMO, its purpose, and why it failed or fell short.

BTW what is the first bit?
image

Okay, I see what you're saying now. I totally agree with that. I don't know if the game will be a major frunk on release, and some of the things they have might make great material for some expansions to other current MMOs, but I do agree that the lack of imagination on this one is a bummer. Guess we'll see what impact this MMO will have on the community when it's released.

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