Jimquisition: Linearity versus Replayability

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JasonBurnout16:
snip

Ummm,this wasn't a rant on multiplayer. This was a rant on people who believe that the only replay value in games is some sort of multiplayer function,or some other post-game gimmick. Nobody is saying multiplayer sucks.

Oh Jim....You sit firmly on my 50/50 of Good/Hate bar

Last week you cried because USA/Europe wont be getting some JRPGs

You did a stunning episode about Passwords and having many of them

This week was a goody too....

Thumbs Up

10.1/10

Great episode, also oh god I forgot how hot Kuja was.

Alphakirby:

JasonBurnout16:
snip

Ummm,this wasn't a rant on multiplayer. This was a rant on people who believe that the only replay value in games is some sort of multiplayer function,or some other post-game gimmick. Nobody is saying multiplayer sucks.

Yes, but what I'm trying to say is that the multiplayer function is a totally valid form of replay value. I know I didn't say it very well.

Thunderhorse31:

Phlakes:
I want to see a CoD game that has no competitive multiplayer, then it can go back to the awesome campaigns from 2 and 4.

I... what... you...

*aneurysm*

...

You do realize that 2 and 4 both had multiplayer right? Like, hugely successful multilplayer... right?

But the emphasis was on single player. After 4, the games are basically MMOs with a little single player thrown in.

mireko:
Great episode, also oh god I forgot how hot Kuja was.

I'll be honest. Despite playing FF9 and knowing that Kuja is a guy, I totally mistook those hips for a woman.

As for the episode - Yes. Good points and it made me laugh. I chuckled at the 'idiot noise' he made and then laughed out loud when he said "That's what you sound like because you're stupid."

Great stuff. So right. Pretty much all the games I've played through more than once have been solely single player and pretty linear, stuff like Zelda and Okami etc. But although I've enjoyed games like Halo or Bioshock 2 I've never felt like I wanted to play them over. I did play the Halo 3 multiplayer for a while but got bored of it. Only ever played a few matches on Bioshock and wasn't impressed at all. I've never even played an online match on AC:B, never felt the urge, but I'm playing through the first game a second time, and aim to do the second as well. This obsession with obligatory multiplayer needs to stop.

Once again I'm suckered in by an interesting topic only to have to stop the video two minutes in because a little voice in my head is going "Shut up shut up shut UP you obnoxious man!" Even when he's making a good point, even when I agree with him, the delivery is so sloppy and self-important that I honestly don't care if it's supposed to be a joke. What's the phrase, ah yes, thank you Yahtzee: "Intentionally annoying is still ANNOYING!"

It's just really frustrating because I want to be able to listen to the whole argument without starting to twitch but I just can't do it. It's almost physically painful and that makes me especially sad since this week's topic is one I would love to hear a new viewpoint on.

Well, guess I've learned my lesson.

JasonBurnout16:
I disagree. I like games having multiplayer. I like getting online in a new game, such as Bioshock 2, and playing with my friends. Guess that makes me a cunt-mushroom?

Not at all he was saying games don't have to only use multiplayer to have replay value in a game and it doesn't need to be shoehorned in because of a trend. While multiplayer is a good idea you wouldn't force the next Silent Hill game to have online multiplayer because it is said to lengthen replay value correct?

I agree completely with this episode. I've replayed single player games like Half-Life dozens of times, and often I still end up finding little secrets or tidbits of the story that I missed before.

Also, thumbs up for mentioning FF9. I can't say I care for most Final Fantasy games, but I loved FF9. I even still have a Vivi plushie sitting next to my monitor.

Jim, you are not right. Replayability is not about your feelings to the game, it's about new expirience, that the game can provide each time you'r playing it. It's a game-mechanich feachure. Just a characteristic of a game, like shader version. If it hase ways to have different expirience (dificulty level changing, random generated locations, different classes of playeble characters) - it hase replayabiliti, if not - it hasn't.
A lot of people like crapy games, that you woud be sick of in 5 minutes. So... what? Have those games replayability? I liked Bad Company, but will never play it again, and my friend played it 4 times. So have this one replayability? For me - no and for him yes? That just doesn't make sense.

Sory, Jim, but you were talking about personal preferences, not about replayability.

he's right... the games with multyplayer and mods and s*** licke that are usualy the ones i don't play that much

Fuck yeah, Final Fantasy IX

That being said, this is something I've been trying to get across for awhile, ever since Final Fantasy XIII was criticised for being "too linear". I'm glad someone gets it.

Watched this video because MovieBob plugged it in his GO blog.
I agree with the message but I really can't get over the way it's presented. I mean I realise it's an act and all, but if someone was punching me repeatedly, I wouldn't listen much to what they're saying, even if it was the most enlightened thing ever. It's the same thing with verbal abuse. It's hard to focus on what you're saying in between being called a moron for no reason.

I have to say I'm confused about the format you've picked. People generally don't listen as much when you insult them. It seems like you could make people who originally agreed with you start to disagree. Isn't that the opposite of what's you'd want?

Either way, I absolutely agree, although multiplayer can be nice too. I bought Portal 2 only for the co-op and I've played it a few times, although I guess here the co-op IS linear too, and yet quite replayable.

I don't think I'll keep watching your vids though. I would feel masochistic to do so when I can just ask someone else what you said and get the point without the insults.

Holly crap, you must be a mind read Jim ,just few hours ago I was thinking something very similar to this Subject .
When I was younger I could play one Game for months and have the fun of a life time whit it.
When I finally stop playing it, I did it whit a real sense of accomplished, I had play it to the fullest and enjoyed the ride, now whit so many games and different systems to play on, and whit less time then before, because we have to work and live and so on,It seams I play more in quantity then in quality .
But donīt get me wrong today we have excellent games, I have fun ,but its seams we are in a race to go tho the next big hit game and we sometimes (most of the Times ) left the games "half played" for a lack of better word.

if you play something else every time then it's not called REplay is it? it's just playng something new so it's not REplayebility! it's just playebility

It's a sad state of affairs when Game A doesn't sell because all it has is an entertaining and engaging single player experience, but Game B sells millions because it's lackluster and uninspired single player campaign is backed up with a similarly lackluster and uninspired multiplayer mode which allows 12-year-olds to scream profanities at each other over voice chat.

Oh god, he's gone back to trollish "I'm a Fascist dick" routine. Not endearing.

I want him like he was last week, the real Jim: Jim Sterling, not Jimquisition

Jim Sterling:
Linearity versus Replayability

Sometimes, Jim wishes he could be you so that he'd also experience the joy of enlightenment each Monday. This week, we look at the mythical struggle between linearity and replayability.

Watch Video

I don't think people ACTUALLY say that.

I think what they say is effectively "It has very little replay value and TO ADD it doesn't EVEN have any multiplayer modes"

Because every time a critic says it has no replay-value, the PR people/fanboys always respond with: "but the multiplayer modes, such great value, blah blah blaaaah"

Critics say the "no replay" AFTER they say the game is barely above average. Games like Bioshock, Half Life 2 and other game that are THAT good are very few and far between, most games that critics are going to review if they are linear then they are not good enough to be worth playing through again.

So inevitably you will hear them say:

"It's linear. It has no online. It has NO REPLAY VALUE!"

This is a big problem for a games like:
-Wanted: Weapons of Fate
-Singularity
-Wet
-Condemned
-Velvet Assassin
-Zeno-clash
-Shank
-Wolfenstein

these are "good" game (not great, not Amazing, just above average) but lose a heck of a lot of their appeal as value wise they are hard pressed to be worth $60.

I agree with you that it was a travesty to waste valuable time on a bioshock 2 multiplayer, if they were worried abotu lasting appeal and value they had many many more options:

-drip feed extra content for FREE (Bioshock 2 did this, but the bonehead decision of charging)
-Sell it at a lower price though the only options on consoles are $60 or $20 on XBLA. Steam is much more flexible could be any price between $3 and $60
-Include a "morality system" that is usually much more an "alternate path" system

Kahunaburger:

Warlord Timmy:

Kahunaburger:
Wow, so replay value is replay value? Good thing we have the hard-hitting jimquisition to tell us that! Keep aiming for those challenging targets, Jim.

>missing the entire point of the video

That video barely had a point. He was saying that linear games can have replay value if they're worth replaying - i.e., replay value = replay value. Wow, video game journalism at its finest!

He's saying anything good is worth replaying. Come on, you can't have been on the internet for a day without hearing the tons of people who say "No multiplayer? No buy". Maybe you have miraculously avoided all these people, but I assure you: they are LEGION.

Absolutely true, excellent and also the best Jimquisition show to date.

Seriously. Replay value is right there in the word: RE-PLAY. As in PLAY AGAIN. How can someone be so thick to think that to REPLAY means some shitty multiplayer tack-on?

I agree wholeheartedly with the Jimquisition this week.

Agreed Jim. I can't tell you how many times I replayed the Halo games. They're just so damn fun to play.

I love multiplayer. But it's not the reason I pick up games. I buy games because I'm interested in the story, or the gameplay aspect of it all.

Perfect examples would be, for me anyways, God of War (the first), Okami, Resident Evil 4, Tales of Symphonia, and Halo: Reach. And even if the story of the game isn't all that good I'll still play through the campaign over and over again because the atmosphere is strong, or there are easter eggs or hidden collectibles that I missed on my first or second playthrough.

I'd accuse you of being privy to some lost arcane or super advanced, alien knowledge but realistically this is just common sense.

Why must most people be so dumb?

"To me, replay value comes in whether or not I want to play the game again".

Which is bit illogical, it would make more sense if you would add 'Right after I finish it' or 'In short term' at the endor something similar.

Because replay value is not 0/1, its a VALUE. Modern Warfare 2 (SP) will have lower replay value because of its linear gameplay and scripted encounters, then say Baldurs Gate 2 which has more open gameplay, mechanics and non-linear storytelling.

imho.

iron skirt:
if you play something else every time then it's not called REplay is it? it's just playng something new so it's not REplayebility! it's just playebility

Yeah, but with multiplayer, don't people fight in the same maps with the same weapons over and over again?

Black ops came with 14 stock maps and 10 minutes per match there is only about 2 hours and 20 minutes of actual "new play" before you start REplaying the same maps, just with different rules and weapons.

If you play through the single-player with different weapons and tactics then that is definitely replay.

But that's not a problem, it is all-right to replay a map in competitive multiplayer as there are so many angles to discover with it. This is just ACCEPTABLE replayability. Still replaying the same old shit. Yeah there are map-packs, 12 new maps for $45 is pretty poor value. That's the price of a whole new game for effectively only 2 hours of new content.

Only a game like minecraft can claim infinite playability with randomly generated world and content that is limited only by your imagination.

DustyDrB:

Kahunaburger:

Warlord Timmy:

>missing the entire point of the video

That video barely had a point. He was saying that linear games can have replay value if they're worth replaying - i.e., replay value = replay value. Wow, video game journalism at its finest!

He's saying anything good is worth replaying. Come on, you can't have been on the internet for a day without hearing the tons of people who say "No multiplayer? No buy". Maybe you have miraculously avoided all these people, but I assure you: they are LEGION.

Yeah, well those are idiots. And could you give me a couple of examples of post that say that in these forums, because i seem to have missed every single one.

Jim is talking about the critics and they never say that half-life 2 is a no-buy because of lack of online (thought there actually IS an online mode with HL2: Deathmatch).

They say that about games like Wanted: Weapons of Fate have no replay value and they really lack that. After playing through the short single player you might as well use it as a coaster.

I've always thought it was odd when people would tell me I'm weird for replaying persona 3 fes just cause there was no co-op/online and yet those same people would usually spam the same ten songs and say its different. Or how they would basically play the same game on online and either just be better or suck more then the people they're playing against.

How is playing the same class, with the same weapons, with minor upgrades, really that different if its online then if its in a story driven single player.

and usually the answer is just a blank stare and pointing saying it has other people.

Well, it seems that Jim has turned a corner from his first videos - now he is making sense consistently. Congratulations Jim! Keep it up!

Thank GOD for Jim Sterling.

Treblaine:

DustyDrB:

Kahunaburger:

That video barely had a point. He was saying that linear games can have replay value if they're worth replaying - i.e., replay value = replay value. Wow, video game journalism at its finest!

He's saying anything good is worth replaying. Come on, you can't have been on the internet for a day without hearing the tons of people who say "No multiplayer? No buy". Maybe you have miraculously avoided all these people, but I assure you: they are LEGION.

Yeah, well those are idiots. And could you give me a couple of examples of post that say that in these forums, because i seem to have missed every single one.

Jim is talking about the critics and they never say that half-life 2 is a no-buy because of lack of online (thought there actually IS an online mode with HL2: Deathmatch).

They say that about games like Wanted: Weapons of Fate have no replay value and they really lack that. After playing through the short single player you might as well use it as a coaster.

I wouldn't call them idiots. They are just misguided, and probably hypocrites (I'm willing to bet most of them have single-player only games that they've replayed at least once). But they are the reason we see some single-player games get half-baked multiplayer modes (that may or may not divert development time away from the main game. I'm not sure about the validity of that statement, so I won't use it as an argument).

I'm not gonna go hunting for posts, but I can remember some of the games that I heard it for most often here: Enslaved, LA Noire, Portal (and Portal 2), and Mafia II. There are others, but my memory isn't that good.

I did do a Google search (I put in this, so you can follow up if you like: "replay value" site:escapistmagazine.com) and came across this thread. The guy I quoted here even mentions Portal as a game with no replay value in that thread (and I hope this doesn't seem dickish calling him out like that. It's not my intent).

Every episode he makes is 20X better than the last. I am really starting to love this guy. Also his voice is far less whiney nowadays.

I agree I was displised to here of Metro:Last Light's multi-player but there is a lot of space to inovate in multi-player.

Good points. I've replayed half life 2 so many, many times...

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:
OK Jim, here's the thing: I agree with you about 95% of the time, but....listen carefully here...YOU DON'T HAVE TO ACT LIKE A DICK TO BE ENTERTAINING. It's not like if you stop ripping off Yahtzee we'll all just lose interest, OK? You're a smart guy. PLEASE start acting like one.

That's his character. he's not a new guy who is getting his start here this character previously existed elsewhere. Besides Jim is narcissistic while yahtzee is the cynic and Daniel is the nice smart guy.

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