Jimquisition: Fight in the Name of Childishness

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I don't care if we're considerd imature ore mature ore whatever... I like games, some people will be mature and some imature no mather the arguments, so in the end it's all about me playng my games and ignoreing people who have something against it... unless of cours they make me mad in witc chase, imaturity is bliss! ps. can I be a Jimquisitor?

What we do in Britain is just laugh at anyone who acts overly serious for more than five minutes, It makes us uncomfortable.

Fishmoo.

==Alright Everyone Stop!!!==

Plot holes in logic all around. Trying to rationalize anything related to Fox News is never bound to work out too well. The woman in question who had a change of heart could have very easily been swayed by another intelligent person, maybe even another "expert". The trolling on her Amazon book doesn't *have* to lead to her changing her mind. Further more, gamers who are (or at least speak) intelligent do not have to be a result of insecurity. (I don't recall if Jim mentioned that it *had* to be insecurity) Some gamers just rather do things their own way.

Or in my case, I'm very sensitive when it comes to making sure I don't hurt anyone's feelings.

Clonekiller:

Cause the French revolution worked out so well.

Yes it did.

HyenaThePirate:
So let ... boy Ponies.

win like a man? wtf does that even mean? Against large organisations with enormous budgets at there there disposal? But not lets not use the power of numbers because that would offend some BS macho sensitivity about some idiot imposed on you.

Yes ppl have a right to disagree, that doesn't mean they have the right to purposefully lie about something for there own gain. Yes every one has the right to there own opinion just like we have the right to let some one know when that opinion is BS or retarded.

Yeah it sucks to be on the receiving end, thats exactly the point. Which is why ppl like jack Thompson should have thought of that before they started it.

Ppl use things like "act like a man" or "act maturely" as nothing more than baseless accusations when they got nothing good to say, when usually thats e. How is it acting like a man to let some one get away with lies because some idiot questions you masculinity? How are you acting mature when you let some one slander you and damage what you care about just because your more worried about saving face then the truth.

I may disagree, I may think Keighley did a fine job on that incident, but I think this was the best Jimquisition to date!

It had style!
It had personality!
It had humor!
It has sarcasm!
It has soul!
It had funk!
It actually made some sense!

Loved it. Keep that identity and take it all the way! Nice!

ACman:
Hmm.
....
.....
Sigh.

This is a week where pro-gamers need to shut up and let the NRA look insane.

Yes, ultimately it boils down to a madman's access to assault rifles.

But, uncomfortably he is connected with gaming.

He used gaming to train.

This is were gaming must accept some responsibility.

This is not an issue where we can be childish.

No.

No!!

We must have some sober introspection if we are to be taken seriously.

I'm sorry Jim but being the retarded dickhead will not serve us this week. Maybe other weeks where fox news is connecting kindegarden violence with Mortal Kombat but we can only really point out the stupidity of the connection these people make between violence and games when the difference is not so marginal.

This week videogames (COD:MF2) have been connected to a violent shooting. While the videogame has not been shown to influence motive it has been stated to have been instumental.

Yes there is many magnitudes of difference between a person using a firearm and a person playing Call of Duty. Does this suggest that we should not think about our medium and what effect it has on our society?

No it does not.

By no means do I think anything should be censored but a careful consideration of what role videogame violence plays in our society is worthwhile and should not be discounted.

Videogamers playing childish retards cannot help.

What can help is an absolute inundation of organisations who portray gamers as isolated violent weirdos. Inundate them with what you do for a living. Inundate them with what you do for your family. Inundate them with how you had a good time this weekend. Inundate them with how normal a humanbeing you are.

Let them know.

We are normal. And we will be heard.

Now you're just talking crap. This is exactly the time we need to be vocal. If we sit and be the bigger man, they'll take our silence for defeat. They will leap on us and we won't try to stop them. Being the bigger man is ridiculous. We're fighting an enemy louder, more vocal, and more accessible than we are. When they invite us to a ridicule match, we have to play their game. Don't be afraid to step on a few toes. Show them that not only are we normal, decent people, we also will NOT be stepped on. Being vocal and mocking does not necessarily mean devolving into childish argument.
It is possible to deliver a valid argument in a mocking fashion. I could do it. I've done it plenty of times. I always get results. Quoting facts rarely works, so you only do it when called upon. If you're told videogames make children into murderers, don't cite the number of whatevers involved in whatever, you tell them to prove it. They pull their numbers, you throw their numbers in their face. Those children also went to school. They watched TV. Listened to music. They had two parents. They had one parent. There was an old man on the same estate. Force them to hear that correlation is NOT causation, and with something so widespread as videogames, of course there'll be some kind of connection.

As much as I hate to admit it, Jim DOES make a fair point here...
And the fact that hes right about the only way to "combat" those idiots is to sink to their level, in order to "convince" the incredibly thick masses truly saddens me... though in all fairness, the sheer stupidity of the average person has always saddened me.

I don't see how he could have implemented the same mindset, that the Amazon-bombing's followed, in a live television debate defending games or "shouting down" the anti-games lobbyists. I think the two approaches did what they did well and complimented one another.

What would you have had him say to them, when they were espousing fallacy to whip up an audience? All he had was the high ground, supported by fact and reason. If he'd tried to be childish to the childish, it would just invigorate their fervour, and they have much more antagonising bullshit to throw around than we do. He could have been ignorant and flippant, but that would have just pushed the audience towards the more furious and "morally" slanted arguments of the anti-games crowd. Face it, he couldn't have won, and if he had acted childish, he was out-numbered and out-gunned on that front.

It helped our cause that, to who it mattered, he responded reasonably and logically, and then the Amazon-bombings hurt them in the way we can.

So I call fanciful bullshit. Additionally, what was the "supposing the mature only act mature as a facade" in aid of? Some people are just inherently reasonable and mature, and are sick of the assholes of society taking precedent when they speak. You're pulling the similar tact to "Right-Wing Media" in dismissing and discrediting the mature response by being obtuse and creating faux-facts.

If you can however see a way he, and future games spokespeople, can be as obstinate and puerile as the anti-games folk were (and are), that still benefits and represents the games and gaming community, then please, get on that. They win the argument because their argument is scarier, and more compounded with loud-angry "moral-objections". If you just yell, but have no crowd-pleasing substance, you just have them win again.

For now, reasonability, and then immature attacks on the morons, is the best approach.

Jack Thompson's approach worked *so* well that he wound up being disbarred and disowned by people on his own side.

Meanwhile, gamers being childish about the Mass Effect "controversy" is the only reason anybody ever hears about it. Everyone else saw it, shrugged, and moved on. It had zero cultural impact except for gamers, whose being butthurt about it has accomplished absolutely nothing.

In fact, what it really shows is how many people really don't have a choice about the matter- they lack the maturity to be anything but childish in the first place.

I wouldn't say not going on the news interview would have been any better, if he hadn't gone on they would have made it much worse by saying 'no comment, shows how wrong they are', but because he went on and appeared to have gotten 2 words in to their 10, they came across as bullies and childish by not giving him his two cents.

Acting childish may appear effective and efficient at getting points across, but its a quickie dirty solution. There would have been many more mature solutions, instead of blasting this woman's book, a few articles in our own journalistic empire and possibly some discussion on forums and boards (like we are doing now) about how little research and logic went into this interview. Possibly an interview with this woman would have given us the very information we got from the flaming. Yes it would have taken longer, but we would no longer be a mob fighting a mob.

Is anything from Extra Credits getting through? The very reason Fox gets to do this is because Gaming and it's audience are seen as immature and childish. All that was done here was proving
Fox and Co. right by spamming this ill-informed woman. Please note that the whole Anonymous Fiasco is basically the same thing on a larger scale, 'Oh, big company make us look stupid, lets respond by attacking them, that show them we smart! Whaddya mean other gamers get hurt doin this? They just noobs that just talky talky.....' and so on.

Oh and EA have NO foothold in terms of maturity. Watch the Extra Credits video "An Open Letter To EA". The rest of my points could be rounded up there.

Even if I don't entirely agree with it, I think this has been the best Jimquisition yet by mixing a good amount of humour and valid arguments equally.

If you ever been on an American debate team, you will know that the favored tactic is to spout nonsense arguments that forces your opponent to spend most of their time trying to figure out what you just argued, losing their time to make their own point.

If one can, attacking somebody's means to put money in their wallets will always get more results.

Jim if those experts on Fox are adults, I suddenly understand why Peter Pan never wanted to grow up.

This is amazing. Indeed Jim is absolutely right. Quite often, even I fall into the rabbit hole of 'maturity', expecting some wonderland where everyone else also acts mature and rationally. Bullshit. You only get your point across with 1) Money 2) Brute force.

Interestingly, Jim is right and Yahtzee is wrong.

You know what, I pretty much agree with quite a lot of what Jim says here. Particularly the part about it being okay to play games because they are fun, and not needing to find some more "justifiable" reason to play games.

Fuck the people who judge you for playing games because they are "worthless wastes of time." If you are going to make a judgement call about something without understanding or even trying to understand it, your thoughts really aren't worth my time.

ManupBatman:
Oh gawd, there is consensus between Jim and the front page on the Escapist! This has to be a sign of the end of days or something. It has been an very hot summer...... oh no, winter is coming!

This made my day. Nice "Game of Thrones" reference too.

Think about it - the reason Jim gets so much traffic and debate stirred up is because of how loud and childish he is. That's not a criticism. On day 1 of the Jimquisition here on the escapist, Jim was met with a wall of abuse, but after a few weeks people are singing his praises. All because he was loud, he was obnoxious, and he didn't make a single compromise. "This is me", he said, "And you're damn well going to like it or lump it. Jog on."

But the fact is, people took Jim's opinions to heart, whether they hated the way they were presented or not. People may disagree with him, but it's got people talking about him and his opinions. His loud, childish persona carried his message and still is doing so successfully. I think this is proof that what he's saying in this episode had some genuine merit. Sometimes, you've just got to be "that guy" with the megaphone and swallow your moral pride about 'rising above it' - shout back at those who shout at you.

I'd rather see the world around me collaps in burning ashes than sink down to their level.
No, I am not on an absurdly high horse (maybe a pony), but I will never become what I hate the most.

Edit:

Gralian:
But the fact is, people took Jim's opinions to heart, whether they hated the way they were presented or not. People may disagree with him, but it's got people talking about him and his opinions. His loud, childish persona carried his message and still is doing so successfully. I think this is proof that what he's saying in this episode had some genuine merit. Sometimes, you've just got to be "that guy" with the megaphone and swallow your moral pride about 'rising above it' - shout back at those who shout at you.

Goddamnit, there is maybe some truth in it. But I doubt acting arrogant like the Fox News cast will help.

Pretty sure I can't call myself mature anymore after laughing at his raspberry-ing at the end...

His little dance just made me laugh.

OT some very good points raised however I think that there are some mature audiences out there who do not listen to the idiots who rally against gaming, although they are few and far between.

Wait....

Did Jim Sterling just say inorder to beat Faux News + Friends we have to be like them?

Well...if on a daily basis they can scare stupid people into hating ______ then I guess he has a point...

Ive watched the Mass Effect Sexy Faux Fun Time...Geoff Keighley hardly did much of anything beyond listen to some woman ramble on about how I see women as a sex object...and the entire job of Commander Shepard was to fuck his way across space w/ added gunplay

No, Jim. You are wrong. Your point is stupid and you are stupid for making it.

Mmmhh... I guess acting childish and talking out of my butt does makes me right. Good advice.

Nice episode. It is interesting to see this come out into the open. Reasoned debate does have it's place, and when engaged with other civil minded people, it works well. I am admittedly tired of seeing childish people bash video games, and I suppose seeing more of it going in the opposite direction would be nice every once in a while.

No, Jim you need to take such things out at the source. Carpet bomb Fox News's broadcasting station, problem solved.
What I'm saying is that too destroy someones argument, you have to destroy their argument. Now how do we do that, why is this person taken seriously. Destroy what makes them capable of having the argument. People rarely suddenly have a change of heart in a argument, so why play that way.

My God, that is so TRUE! It doesn't matter what facts you have, if the person you're fighting it stubbornly stupid! Trust me, I've seen this happen, both on the Internet AND in real life!

Hell yeah, best episode ever !
I had to laugh out loud at the end.

I say we do BOTH.

First we establish a council, who serves as figureheads for the entire community at large, and then we enlist the help of the most TROLLIEST TROLLS IN ALL OF TROLLHAVEN, BLESSED BE THE TROLL KING, and use them as a sort of "taskforce" whenever someone talks shit.

Sort of like lulzsec, but no hacking, just mean spirited comments.

Interesting idea.

I kind of like it. I mean if these people really wanted to understand how adult games can be they'd do some research instead of spouting out stereotypes. The average age of gamer is somewhere in the 30s and this isn't exactly recent news.

The people who say that there's rape in GTA and that it gives you points for killing hookers, or that Bullet Storm can lead to rape they probably aren't interested in the truth.

Oh and if you want another reason not to take those groups seriously.

At the end of the day they can't do shit (at least in the US). They can't ban it or restrict sales, because of the Supreme Court ruling. All they can do is bitch about it.

BUT!

There is one thing to keep in mind.

Sending out threats of violence Will Not Work! It didn't work with Michael Atkinson or with anyone else. Plus it's illegal.

Top Hat:
A very interesting & valid point, but it saddens me to think that immaturity is the only way to get results.

Agreed.

Jim, part of the problem is that's exactly what Fox news would like: some big exagerated back and forth contriversy to help fuel ratings and fill time on the 24 hour news clock. Not to mention the more childish we act, the more it justifies to position that we're just overaged kids afraid our naughty games will be taken away. Not that there isn't a place for calling BS out, but the debate was lost when he showed up, and acting like a child wouldn't have help anything. Very few will be convinced by anything in a debate as they have their minds made up coming in and are just looking to have their opinion validated.

Now the carpet bombing, while certainly a childish tactic had a very mature mindset behind (at least some of) it. You slandered us, we slander you. Not in dabate where it means nothing, we'll hit you where it actually hurts, book sales. While childish on the front, it got the point across better than anything luzsec has come up with. It also could have backfired. This lady was smart enough to make a retraction (even if it may by disengenious) but someone like Pailin would have gotten weeks of press time milking being the victem of some liberal conspiracy even as the daily show points out the double standard.

Sadly, I don't know a good tactic to combat stupidity on Fox's level, but I do know we can't play the game by their rules.

I dunno who won: The gamers who got a pseudo-psychologist to apologize for being mislead by TV producers; or Fox News since Mass Effect 2 had fully clothed (& very awkward) cuddling scenes instead of side boobs.

AgentBJ09:
Makes sense to me. Save the debates for the times when someone's face isn't being broadcast on FOX, MSNBC, or any other networks. They're mostly there for ratings when it comes to opinion pieces, like the SEXBOX bit. As the saying goes, "If it burns, it earns."
he did manage to expose his opponent early by asking if she had actually played Mass Effect. Granted, most viewers missed it since it was all about the sex, but he did get something by being civil at first.

True. All that said though he could have still exposed her by being childish.
He could have said something like; "Oh, the game is just about sex?! Did you play this game from start to finish, or do you only know the game has sex scene in it?! If so you're pretty much reviewing a book after reading one page in the middle!"

I think that anyone who goes on Fox News as a counterpoint to them should be accompanied by a large black man whose only job is to tell the pundits to stop interrupting his client and look menacing.

I could explain why I disagree, but according to you all I need to do is to shout abuse at you until you concede...

Personally, and this works a million times better in real life, I prefer to simply ramp up the smug.

I am, by my very nature, an insufferable git. I can make anybody foam at the mouth whilst not appearing childish or stupid to anyone else watching. It's easy, you just stick to very well vocalised arguments and test your argumental opponents switches. You'll eventually find something that smacks them the wrong way. Making them retaliate in a fit of anger. But you wont look like an idiot yourself. Being forceful and hammering your point across in a very precise and quick witted manner isn't childish and is the only way you can win an argument were people aren't observing the intricacies of formal debate.

Christopher Hitchens is a bona-fide master of this art.

I've warmed up to the Jimquisition since it started. I find the "schtick" abrasive to the point where I, sometimes, want to smack sterling in his flapping gob while simultaneously wanting to give him kudos for making a solid point, but I ultimately think the merits 'outweigh' the crass delivery...

Talk about your "backhanded compliments"... *drumroll*

... I'll stop...

______________

On this episode's topic, I kinda see an apt parallel between this and middle/highschool bullying. Often, the victim, targeted for being perhaps more shy and bright, will try and 'aloof' their way to victory and some can, with a deliberately thick skin, but outside of a personal victory of character, it doesn't really teach the bullies a lesson or stop them from proceeding to harass the next poor sod.

The people Jim points out, although not in the halls of highschool hell, are still the conversational equivalent of bullies and generally the best (if technically inappropriate) way to deal with a bully is to give them a memorable smack down they'll make them think twice before talking shit and picking on people. You can't reason with these people and they only ever stop to consider their actions after they're personally attacked themselves.

I think the appropriate roles have already been drawn. I think the developers and industry professionals SHOULD remain intelligent and calm and represent the persevering-logically-minded front, because that reflects what the industry's image wants to be... The gaming COMMUNITY, on the other hand already has both a poor image (that nobody's ready to reconsider) and NUMBERS. These internet savvy grassroots defenders are ideally suited to ganging up on media bullies and administering a heavy handed cyber smack down to unfounded, unthinking detractors.

I don't like that people act like this to each other, but we all have to plan and play around the cards we're given and sometimes the best cure for a bully isn't a rational discussion, but a punch in the nose.

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