No Right Answer: The Killing Joke vs Watchmen

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The reason those two are so important is because they both kind of changed everything. Watchman was what set off the 'gritty realistic hero' thing Killing Joke is what shifted joker from being 'clown/gambling themed villain to what he is'

edit: don't bother pointing out that DKR came out b4 Killing Joke. someone else already did. Thanks

Didn't Alan Moore write both?
And having read only watchmen, I will have to say that it's brilliant, but then again I do love me some Joker.

The Great JT:
I'd say it's a tie. Watchmen was incredible (and the movie was pretty good too), The Killing Joke was incredible, but you want to know what the true best Alan Moore story was?

image

Was going to say this. That book makes me cry everytime.

But if you really, REALLY want to get how great Alan Moore can be you got to go way back to where the Vertigo imprint began.

image

Next to nothing in comics beats this series.

You know, I've been thinking about what is wrong with this show, and I think i got it more or less figured out. You guys take a broad question, with numerous potentially correct answers then pick two of them to debate over. This leads to a feeling by some viewers that neither answer was right because their favorite is not present in the debate.

Take for example the question of Superman VS Batman. There are two ways you can ask this question, the way you have been it would look like this:

Who is the best superhero ever?
Person A: Superman!
Person B: Batman!
Audience: 'Green Lantern!' 'Captain Marvel!' 'Squirrel Girl! (seriously look at the list of villains she's taken down)'

Then the audience doesn't feel so good about the debate because they aren't invested in either of the choices.

Now, if you asked it in a slightly different way:

"Who do you think is better, Superman, or Batman?"

then the audience would be put into a better mindset to really get into the idea of the debate rather than just thinking that neither choice is good.

no mention of the 572 page colossus that is From Hell? really?

SpaceBat:

Ne1butme:
Wow, so chris won because of a vagina joke?

Yeah. I mean sure, the squid monster was ridiculous (something that the movie actually improved upon immensely) [snip]

No, it didn't improve it. It actually violated the plan's entire purpose. Going into spoiler mode for this bit.

I love the movie, but that part wasn't an improvement.

ace_of_something:
The reason those two are so important is because they both kind of changed everything. Watchman was what set off the 'gritty realistic hero' thing Killing Joke is what shifted joker from being 'clown/gambling themed villain to what he is'

Erm, not really. No offence, I love Alan Moore and everything, but he wasn't the first to portray the Joker as a psychotic murderer as opposed to a crime-dabbling crown. The Dark Knight Returns, written by Frank Miller and published two years before TKJ, portrayed the Joker as being equally (if not more) depraved and sociopathic.

What The Killing Joke did well was retell the origins of the Joker for the modern generation, while at the same time giving the character the 'multiple choice past' that everyone now associates with him. It was dark, sure, but it wasn't the first comic to present him as such a psycho, and that's why I'm disappointed with this video. If Alan Moore is going to be praised for turning the Joker into a dark, sociopathic character, then writers such as Frank Miller and Grant Morrison deserve just as much praise, if not moreso.

The main problem I have with this show is that Chris is better that getting his points across then Kyle. It never feels like a debate because Kyle is always on the back foot against a louder Chris in any situation.

With regards to this episode I agree that the Killing Joke is superior to Watchmen, sure Watchmen is good but I'd never go back and re-read it. While I can do that with the Killing Joke I love the Joker's backstory, his actions here and the themes of insanity. It's not about how "We finally got a crazy Joker" it's about how The Joker can see Batman is just as crazy as he is for dressing up as a Bat to fight crime. The Joke at the end is about The Joker and Batman and how they view the world. One is plain crazy for thinking the torch can create the bridge the other appears sane but then reveals he's just as crazy as the first man. (Batman fights crime but dresses up as a bat to do so)

Still at the end of the day most of Moore's stuff is worth reading! Killing Joke, Watchmen, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, V for Vendetta, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Swamp Thing it's all excellent stuff. More people reading comics the better I say. So on that front the episode excels just wish the debates were more central then one person shouting down the second.

The Watchmen movie was really really good. I liked it more than the book, even though the book was good, too. Really great looking movie with really strong and memorable performances.

I hold you personally responsible for this loss, Kyle.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

ace_of_something:
The reason those two are so important is because they both kind of changed everything. Watchman was what set off the 'gritty realistic hero' thing Killing Joke is what shifted joker from being 'clown/gambling themed villain to what he is'

Erm, not really. No offence, I love Alan Moore and everything, but he wasn't the first to portray the Joker as a psychotic murderer as opposed to a crime-dabbling crown. The Dark Knight Returns, written by Frank Miller and published two years before TKJ, portrayed the Joker as being equally (if not more) depraved and sociopathic.

What The Killing Joke did well was retell the origins of the Joker for the modern generation, while at the same time giving the character the 'multiple choice past' that everyone now associates with him. It was dark, sure, but it wasn't the first comic to present him as such a psycho, and that's why I'm disappointed with this video. If Alan Moore is going to be praised for turning the Joker into a dark, sociopathic character, then writers such as Frank Miller and Grant Morrison deserve just as much praise, if not moreso.

I stand corrected, I thought Killing Joke came out before DKR.

Regardless, I still find the watchman to be more important.

The Great JT:
I'd say it's a tie. Watchmen was incredible (and the movie was pretty good too), The Killing Joke was incredible, but you want to know what the true best Alan Moore story was?

image

Good, but for his Superman, I much prefer:

image

Hoplon:

The_root_of_all_evil:
V for vendetta?
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?
Skizz?
Halo Jones?
D.R. and Quinch?
Swamp Thing?
Hellblazer?
ABC Warriors?
Doctor Who? (Comic only :( )

Killing Joke spawned the Miller series, so loses points.
Watchmen is only his most well-known work, not his best.

Like last week, it's not "No Right Answer" it's "Not The Right Candidates".

This.

The Ballard of Halo Jones is way better. It was in 2000 AD though so they may have an excuse for missing it.

No love for Miracle Man?

Picking the most popular works of Alan Moore doesn't necessarily make them the best. Anyway, he is so consistent in the quality of his writing, it is impossible to pick his 'best'. And I have to watch it again, but did Chris tell Alan Moore to 'shut up and enjoy your movies'? If so, the balls on that man.

I don't agree with the result. Yeah, "Killing Joke" is one of Batmans must-reads, but for Moore it's just a good comic. Watchmen is an amazing, epic work that is hard to compare to the Killing Joke.
But honestly, I think that the best book is "V for Venndetta"

Watchmen's a thousand times better in my opinion. Though I might still put V for Vendetta first.

V for Vendetta and The league of Extraordinary Gentlemen would like a word with you.

vxicepickxv:

Sober Thal:
Killing Jokw was the best comic ever. I don't see how anyone could say otherwise. I'm sure some might think so, but I don't think you could change my mind on this.

Also... Vagina Monster is scary.

I'm more partial to Brian K. Vaughan's works on Y the Last Man and Runaways.

Y the last man is a fantastic book.

Although I do find it funny that you bring it up after the guy says he's scared of Vagina monsters. XD

I have to agree with Killing Joke there but I also loved The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Hellblazer, so...

Ne1butme:

SpaceBat:

Ne1butme:
Wow, so chris won because of a vagina joke?

Yeah. I mean sure, the squid monster was ridiculous (something that the movie actually improved upon immensely) [snip]

No, it didn't improve it. It actually violated the plan's entire purpose. Going into spoiler mode for this bit.

I love the movie, but that part wasn't an improvement.

I've had this argument with someone before. I don't think you understand the intent of the films ending.

The film is the superior story in my opinion.

I've got to come clean, I only watched the show because of the Watchmen and Killing Joke connection.
I'm not happy about Chris winning, not because Killing Joke is inferior in any way, but because his arguments were utter crap. I'm glad they stopped plugging that bloody soda company at the end but, in fairness, he lost the argument the moment that smug grin refused to give way to an in depth and convincing argument. Comparing the two is a little flawed anyway, but I guess that's why it's 'No Right Answer'.

I'll agree that the ending of the movie was completely necessary as the graphic novel's ending worked only in that context.

That's about all I'll agree on, though.

I don't like this series. It's not a well thought out show, it just sounds like two whiney nerds awkwardly reciting bad script at each other.

OT: Both are good, but I preferred Watchmen.

From Hell is the best thing he's ever written. I see it as being his most mature work.

For this Watchman vs. The Killing Joke, I am a huge Batman fan but I have to give this one to Watchmen. It's a deconstruction of the superhero mythos and Rorschach is what a real life Batman would be like, a fascist borderline psychopath who has no friends. Superman would not be the kindly boyscout, he would be apathetic to us because we are inferior and we just don't learn. Captain American would be a government agent involved in wetwork. And a superhero's desire to "do good" actually makes him the villain.

The Killing Joke is great though, it's one of the first comic's to point out the irony of Batman being just as insane as the Joker.

Living in Norway means i've hardly ever seen any graphic novels/comic books(type Marvel, D.C, Alan Moore... apparently) in stores so i've never actually gotten to read either of these.

As far as movies go i've seen Watchmen and V for Vendetta and i thought the latter was vastly superior.

Both wrong. Miracleman FTW!

......and every movie they've done of his work has sucked. :(

I honestly prefer Grant Morrison over Alan Moore, but personally I think the Leauge of Extraordinary Gentlemen was my absolute favourite of his works, though Miracleman if it had been finished might be up there.

Also Chris annoys me, I hope Alan Moores curses him or something.

Alan Moore's best work is From Hell.

By far his best researched and most imaginative work that encompasses all the basic ideas of Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Killing Joke and Promethea and rolls them into a huge ball of pure awesome.

And otherwise it's Lost Girls cause who doesn't want to see Wendy going down on Peter Pan. ^_^

Jbird:
Alan Moore doesn't write "graphic novels". He writes comic books. There's a difference, because he's a crazy old man.

What was it Neil Gaiman said? Let's paraphrase:
"They told me I didn't write comic books but rather graphic novels.
I felt like a hooker being called a lady of the night."

Ignatz_Zwakh:
Both wrong. Miracleman FTW!

I still need to get my hands on that one.

My God. I don't think there's going to be a new epsiode next week. I think Chris will be in intensive care.

Well, I for one think all the movies based on Alan Moore's novels are crap! It's like, the Watchmen movie replaced the vagina-squid with an explosion to make Ozymandias's plot fit better with the at least quasi-realistic tone of the first 85% of the story? Heh heh, how does that work? And V for Vendetta made the protagonist slightly more sympathetic, which actually makes sense because the movie is told mostly from Evey's point of view, and she clearly saw V as a hero, so his morally ambiguous actions should naturally seem insignificant.. Er! But nevermind because that subverts the point of the comic, even though it totally doesn't because any idiot who's paying attention could see that V's a psychopath and just assuming that we're going to take the uplifting music's word for it is severely underestimating your audience. So stupid.

...

Pleasedon'tkillmeAlanIdon'twanttobestrangledbyyourbeard-

I choose neither!

I think Alan Moores best work was (and is) Swamp Thing!

image

The artist even makes him look more like Alan.

image

Cain_Zeros:

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:
Is it just me, or does Chris always win? I mean, I haven't really been keeping track, but I think Kyle's getting kinda screwed here. Especially since he's usually right.

You noticed that too? Three weeks in a row it's been judge's decision (because water's a lot easier to chug than Jones Soda) and gone to Chris.

Who judges this thing anyway?

I still prefer Watchmen... mainly cause he had a LOT of time to cap off his story :D

Mullahgrrl:

Cain_Zeros:

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:
Is it just me, or does Chris always win? I mean, I haven't really been keeping track, but I think Kyle's getting kinda screwed here. Especially since he's usually right.

You noticed that too? Three weeks in a row it's been judge's decision (because water's a lot easier to chug than Jones Soda) and gone to Chris.

Who judges this thing anyway?

Dare I ask...
'Who watches the Watchmen?' :P

I disagree with the result but the final word was brilliant! :D

Having already read Watchmen, after I watched this episode I went off and ordered a hardback copy of The Killing Joke :)

Killing Joke definitely wins. Although I disagree that the movies of Watchman and V were good. They really, really weren't

Alan Moore has said in at least one interview that in a way he regrets writing The Killing Joke, because it helped start the trend for gritty and violent comic book writing, and in hindsight he thinks it's an excessively brutal story for what are rather silly characters.

Anyway, I prefer V for Vendetta to either of them.

Someone help me watch these vids. I have been trying for a week now and half of the No Right Answer vids only play the advert and then just hang at loading the real vid.... WTF Escapist you guys used to rock T.T

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