Trailers: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Eternity Vault Walkthrough

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So, blaster bolts are now a light tickle and lightsabers 'chip away' at their targets? Someone plese clarify - is this meant to be Star Wars, because it looks like someone didn't even glance at the source material. Someone show them Space Marine for how to make a game that embodies more than cosmetic tribute to its intellectual property.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some Firefall videos to watch - you know, that MMO that's actually trying something different?

Sleekit:
i'd love someone to actually lay out how they'd set about controlling an MMO boss encounter of any real consequence without the tank/DPS/healer model without it descending into total RNG dependant chaos.

By working a different game model, perhaps? I mean, why was that boss droid so tough? A lightsaber would slice through it just as easily as its cannon shots would have gibbed their targets, so perhaps they shouldn't have been casually running up to it and waving their shiny swords at its knee caps; perhaps they should have been circling it, avoiding its line of fire, taking cover, luring it close enough to jump out and slash off a limb. Perhaps have some fucking consequences to BEING SLASHED BY A FREAKING LIGHTSABER other than a healthbar dropping fractionally. Perhaps make blasters (you know, those things that fry you in a single shot (if you hit)) more than a brief particle effect to be ignored? The Old Republic made being shot just an inconvenience, but this atrocity makes it an irrelevance. The only reason anyone died in that video is because they couldn't be arsed waiting 30 seconds for the droid to kindly stop shooting them with the one attack that actually hurt. So much condense bullshit being dropped all over what Star Wars could have been.

yes because having a dead boss and perhaps your severed arm lying on the floor after 10 secs or so of a fight is such a rewarding game mechanic in multiplayer PvE endgame.

"ok . . . see you all next week i guess ? . ."
"my arm is lying on the floor ? . . and Bob is a pile of dust!"
"i guess you two reroll"
"this game sucks . . ."

just once perhaps you should stop to consider that mixing mechanics from films, games, pseudo science and reality is perhaps a mistake.
just once perhaps you should stop to consider that no one gets buried in Halo or Modern Warfare.
just once perhaps you should stop to consider that when you spin off the track in a driving game you don't end up like Ayrton Senna.

that's because they are games and they have their own rules for the sake of making them actually fun.

just once perhaps you should stop to consider that if making the fantastical alternatives you can spuriously invent off the top of your head as valid game mechanics work was soooooo easy as people like you who have never written 2 lines of code in their lives let alone tried to construct a game that actually works as a game make out people would be doing it and making a metric crap ton of money.

that is, unless, perhaps you think publishers and developers don't want to make money...
which is an "interesting" pov to say the least.

this type of flowery fantasy game construction offends me.

its about as valid as a 30 stone mouth breather telling Eric Cantona at length how to play football when he himself could barely sprint to the toilet after a particularly dodgy kebab.

by all means compare it with whatever already actually exists, with its contemporaries.
but this isn't that. this is fantasy game construction. daydreaming for want of a better word.

in the end you're a consumer. vote will your wallet. that's really all you've got.
and the votes will be tallied.

if you really think you have more to give than that sign up and go make better games for all of us just like the people who's work you are so keen to belittle did years ago and have no doubt that is why they originally started out: to make cool video games they wanted to play.

i read folks comments like yours and i wonder want exactly do you think these people's motivation is if its not to make money (which you seem to imply they would make more of if they just paralleled your great insights into game design) or to make the best games they can...

I love it! really! I love how at the start they shoehorned a Mass Effect/Dragon Age dialogue mechanic that I know will just get skipped over by hardcore raiders. I love the Wow terminology to describe everyone! I also really love how they are playing up a quest to actually have an effect on the game world, even thought we all know that it won't!

Seriously, Bioware, if you want people to give a shit about the lore you are paying good writers to shit out you are going to have to have it mean more than flavor text.

Your designing a table-top roleplay, not a choose your own adventure novel for fuck's sake.

The biggest strength of every single Bioware game is by far the story. I'm afraid some people in the company are going to be heart-broken when they see the community thats inevitably going to join the fray (as a lot of them are bored by the current MMO's). Hell there are people who couldn't be bother with clicking 2 times, 2 TIMES, in 30 minute run of Old Stratholme or Durndeholde Keep!
And besides that the graphical part of the game is just annoying me. How come the missile blasts look so good but people's faces (which are in story driven games probably more important) are just atrocious? O.o I mean look at Darth-Loghain does he look like scary mass murderer or wimpy villain from City of Heroes. Tight pants man tight pants...

TOR looks like it is going to be awesome, I didn't like the voice acting that I've been seeing but the combat and action looks great.

I just don't see what other people are seeing when they say it is just Star Wars WoW.

I've been playing WoW for a bit, and nothing in it looks like what I saw in in that video. The combat in the video looks like it is much faster paced then in WoW. The auto attacks from the the lightsaber wielders look to be much faster then any weapon auto attacks in WoW.

I see a terrible trend in how people view MMOs. As of late even if a new MMO doesn't look like WoW, people will say it looks like WoW. We really need an Optometrist to check people that say these things.

lithium.jelly:
This is looking less and less interesting as it gets closer to release, at this point I'm really doubting I'll bother to try it.

NickCaligo42:
...<lots of good stuff>...

He's right, this is exactly what's wrong with TOR. And in this setting there should be nobody soaking up damage like a WoW-style tank. Even for those in armour, a couple of hits should mean death.

Seriously?! Are we going to be that literal and picky? So what, you want to play a game where you will die if you get hit a couple of times? Take into account that most hits will hit you, there is no avoiding it. You really want that?

If TOR or any other MMO for that matter was like that, nobody would play them, because they wouldn't be fun. With such a setup, people would probably die at least 100 times or more within a span of an hour.

The proper mainstay of fun gaming, is a game where you can die, but only when you really screw up. Dieing just because you got into a fight with something period, doesn't matter the level, isn't fun.

Suspending belief on such things as the player surviving being hit more than 20 times is something that people just have to work on and know how to do. Heck when I'm play an MMO and see my character get hit many times, I just imagine that he/she really just dodged most of those hits, and if I do die, that is just the enemy getting a real hit on me.

Who cares if in the Star Wars universe if something or somebody is hit once by a lightsaber or blaster fire, they are usually mortally wounded/damaged. For games such things have to be left out and over looked, because if all things in games were entirely realistic from life and source material, then games wouldn't be fun.

Sleekit:
snip

Nice response, especially the part where you didn't quote me...

I guess because the only game making I've done has been WC3 mapping that I can't comment on game mechanics, don't know the sort of game I'd like to play and have no idea what I'm talking about despite 15 years of direct experience with a medium. I guess you have never imagined anything different from what publishers have offered you as obviously any sort of critique on their work would make you a 30 stone mouth-breather analogue.

Also, way to straw-man - obviously from what 'people like me' have written we think that if you die in an RPG you should have to re-roll, and woe betide anyone who wants to see a different style of game from the carbon-copy dross that you seem so eager to suck up to.

I find it laughable that you would find the sort of gameplay exhibited in that trailer as anything innovative or especially interesting; it makes a mockery of Force powers, lightsabers and blasters, the mechanics are antiquated and the graphics are shambolic. Missiles travel through solid objects, waving a saber in the vicinity of the target counts as a legitimate attack, no-one responds to damage, save for being knocked back by special abilities that pretty much only do that, you can shoot through team-mates with no concern - it's just all-round bad. How can you not criticise it? How can you lash out at people dreaming of a better world where developers are innovative with major releases?

I find it bizarre that you bring up MW and Halo as straw men for your criticism at my desire for a more true-to-fluff use of weapons - as you point out, there are no 'burials' in either game, people respawn, and yet you comment on perma-death as a result of my 'day dreaming' design? You sir are confused and hypocritical.

I love how you moan about people wanting lightsabers to be powerful and the such like, but as others have pointed out, what universe are you living in? Not everything has to be WoW. In the Star Wars universe, what collection of abilities creates a 'tank' character? Who can stand there taking a Turbo Laser to the face? Are there any precedents for such a character? Did Luke stand there being shot by multiple AT-ATs whilst hacking at their ankles? No. Nothing and no one in the established universe lends itself to that role - there aren't even personal forcefields. So why design a RPG with multiple characters that magically fill the boring old archetype? It's just bullshit, but you're obviously too small minded to dare challenge the system and imagine something that breaks the WoW mould that you hold so dear - that's not just an insult, it's an observation from your posts.

Sonic Doctor:
TOR looks like it is going to be awesome, I didn't like the voice acting that I've been seeing but the combat and action looks great.

I just don't see what other people are seeing when they say it is just Star Wars WoW.

I've been playing WoW for a bit, and nothing in it looks like what I saw in in that video. The combat in the video looks like it is much faster paced then in WoW. The auto attacks from the the lightsaber wielders look to be much faster then any weapon auto attacks in WoW.

Erm, so because the graphics are different and the auto attack is faster paced, it's nothing like WoW? <can't tell if serious.jpg>

Sonic Doctor:

lithium.jelly:
This is looking less and less interesting as it gets closer to release, at this point I'm really doubting I'll bother to try it.

NickCaligo42:
...<lots of good stuff>...

He's right, this is exactly what's wrong with TOR. And in this setting there should be nobody soaking up damage like a WoW-style tank. Even for those in armour, a couple of hits should mean death.

The proper mainstay of fun gaming, is a game where you can die, but only when you really screw up. Dieing just because you got into a fight with something period, doesn't matter the level, isn't fun.

Suspending belief on such things as the player surviving being hit more than 20 times is something that people just have to work on and know how to do. Heck when I'm play an MMO and see my character get hit many times, I just imagine that he/she really just dodged most of those hits, and if I do die, that is just the enemy getting a real hit on me.

I agree entirely with the bolded bit. The thing is, why should you have to 'imagine' that all the dozens or hundreds of hits your character receives miss until the fatal blow miss? You have freaking lightsabers - deflect the rounds (like KOTOR did), clash blades in duels, have a stamina bar that gets whittled down as you make saves, making subsequent saves harder instead of a health system to absorb all the hits, have manually executed dodge moves, rolls, ducks and weaves to make combat fluid and real without casually nuking suspension of disbelief.

If smacks of a complete disregard for the source material to take characters who can literally perceive the future and deflect bullets and then just have them 'tank' attacks that should, again literally, vaporise them in a single hit. There's the CoD/KOTOR/whatever suspension of disbelief where you can take a good few hits, but its rare to take it so far that weapons fire is so inconsequential that you can quite happily stand still in the open in front of a pair of anti-vehicle weapons emplacements, trade rounds with them for 10 minutes (again, just standing there, no evasion, no cover, just swapping rounds constantly) and then win. That's just taking things to a new level of bullshittery that MMOs really need to get over.

The only real method for a nontank nonhealer mmo would be when player avoidance is entirely in the hands of the player, via situational abilities and cover. The issue there would be that if people want instances and raids with bosses in them, they'd have to be designed in a way where every bit of damage they throw out can be avoided, which in itself would be a bit meta.

Look towards Mmofps and Mmorts for the big new things in the massive multiplayer field, the Mmorpg wont change much as long as players ask for "dragons" to kill.

Mikodite:
I love it! really! I love how at the start they shoehorned a Mass Effect/Dragon Age dialogue mechanic that I know will just get skipped over by hardcore raiders. I love the Wow terminology to describe everyone! I also really love how they are playing up a quest to actually have an effect on the game world, even thought we all know that it won't!

Seriously, Bioware, if you want people to give a shit about the lore you are paying good writers to shit out you are going to have to have it mean more than flavor text.

Your designing a table-top roleplay, not a choose your own adventure novel for fuck's sake.

Wow, some people just can't be pleased. BioWare tries to do something new with MMOs, but people still whine and call it WoW.

I find it refreshing that I'll be playing an MMO that has story mechanics like Mass Effect/Dragon Age.

It's not shoehorned means that they fully made the game and then thought up something to put in after it was already a finished product. They intended to have the dialogue choices from the start. They seriously meant to have it; it isn't a random thing.
The dialogue stuff actually improves replay ability by allowing for three separate paths too choose as a player.

It isn't really WoW terminology they are using. It may have come from WoW, but now that terminology is something that people use for all MMO's.

So what if they used the word "tank", it is just a term used to describe a character that can take more and deal out more damage then other characters.
What else you going to call them, toughie, bus, bulldozer, well rounded character that takes lots of damage, what?

Why does each MMO have to have it's own language to describe the fighting abilities of classes? They don't because it would be stupid.

Also, who cares if some people are going to skip the dialogue. Why does an MMO always have to be about raids? You didn't like that they used terms that WoW players would say. Why did you used a WoW term "raiding"? Why do people have to raid in this game? They don't, people can easily just play the game with some friends/guild members and experience the story together, or play the whole game by themselves. The game is partly designed to be like KotOR, so there will be a way for players to solo things.

Why do they have to design it as a table-top roleplay? Why can't they make the story mechanic like it is? Do you really want to play another MMO where you talk to an NPC and they just spout some random hello line and you get a wall of text and a accept quest button?

I guess the old gamer adage is correct: Gamers may ask for something different, but don't give it to them, because they will just complain about how you changed it and it is different from the norm.

here's a few facts on SW:TORs basic combat mechanics: lightsabers do deflect rounds, blades do clash and there is no auto attack. (and you can double check those facts with a 5 min google search if you feel so inclined)

now compare that with a few of the posts above (ye i'm lookin at you Wicky_42)

some people who are claiming to be observant and informed are simply seeing what they want to see.

Wicky_42:
I agree entirely with the bolded bit. The thing is, why should you have to 'imagine' that all the dozens or hundreds of hits your character receives miss until the fatal blow miss? You have freaking lightsabers - deflect the rounds (like KOTOR did), clash blades in duels, have a stamina bar that gets whittled down as you make saves, making subsequent saves harder instead of a health system to absorb all the hits, have manually executed dodge moves, rolls, ducks and weaves to make combat fluid and real without casually nuking suspension of disbelief.

If smacks of a complete disregard for the source material to take characters who can literally perceive the future and deflect bullets and then just have them 'tank' attacks that should, again literally, vaporise them in a single hit. There's the CoD/KOTOR/whatever suspension of disbelief where you can take a good few hits, but its rare to take it so far that weapons fire is so inconsequential that you can quite happily stand still in the open in front of a pair of anti-vehicle weapons emplacements, trade rounds with them for 10 minutes (again, just standing there, no evasion, no cover, just swapping rounds constantly) and then win. That's just taking things to a new level of bullshittery that MMOs really need to get over.

I just don't think computers are at that level of capacity with games that they can recreate such detail and not be a resource hog and tax most computers. MMOs have to be open to most computers, the developers and publishers can't release a game that only people with the most top of the line computer with no lower variation can play. If they did, there wouldn't be hardly anybody playing their MMO, because not every (probably most) PC gamers don't have a super gee-whiz computer that will run a game on perfect settings. Most people just don't have the money to spend to get a computer like that.

Yes KotOR had such dodging and parrying, but if you take a closer look, it is very slow and timed. Computers of the today just wouldn't be able to do it at the speed that BioWare has made the combat.

I welcome fast combat, even if it means we don't get to see all that dodging and such.

combat in KotOR was also turn based

*obligatory text extension*

Jinxey:
I thought this game would take skill...more than WoW level skill.... :(

Essentially it's just the same game of grinding and math, only in a different skin. At least I can see I'm not the only sick of this genre.

To be honest watching this brought the same sense of boredom I was experiencing before I finally dropped out of WoW. I'm actually tired of a game that isn't even out yet..... wtf?

Sleekit:
here's a few facts on SW:TORs basic combat mechanics: lightsabers do deflect rounds, blades do clash and there is no auto attack. (and you can double check those facts with a 5 min google search if you feel so inclined)

now compare that with a few of the posts above (ye i'm lookin at you Wicky_42)

some people who are claiming to be observant and informed are simply seeing what they want to see.

I was going to mention this, but it seems you already did.

Sonic Doctor:

lithium.jelly:
And in this setting there should be nobody soaking up damage like a WoW-style tank. Even for those in armour, a couple of hits should mean death.

Seriously?! Are we going to be that literal and picky? So what, you want to play a game where you will die if you get hit a couple of times? Take into account that most hits will hit you, there is no avoiding it. You really want that?

If TOR or any other MMO for that matter was like that, nobody would play them, because they wouldn't be fun. With such a setup, people would probably die at least 100 times or more within a span of an hour.

The proper mainstay of fun gaming, is a game where you can die, but only when you really screw up. Dieing just because you got into a fight with something period, doesn't matter the level, isn't fun.

Suspending belief on such things as the player surviving being hit more than 20 times is something that people just have to work on and know how to do. Heck when I'm play an MMO and see my character get hit many times, I just imagine that he/she really just dodged most of those hits, and if I do die, that is just the enemy getting a real hit on me.

Yes, I want to play a game where I will die if I get hit a couple of time. I should be able to dodge that fire, take cover, deflect it with a lightsaber, force the enemy to keep their heads down by using suppressing fire, etc. Developers should be creative in providing ways players can avoid taking damage. Soaking up hit after hit just doesn't feel like Star Wars.

I'll have better things to spend my time playing, games where developers seem to really be challenging the traditional MMO model and providing a very different game experience for their players, such as The Secret World. After the initial few months I think TOR is likely to lose players rapidly, which is a shame because I'd like to see a Star Wars MMO done well. I guess I probably never will.

Sonic Doctor:
Wow, some people just can't be pleased. BioWare tries to do something new with MMOs, but people still whine and call it WoW.

I find it refreshing that I'll be playing an MMO that has story mechanics like Mass Effect/Dragon Age.

It's not shoehorned means that they fully made the game and then thought up something to put in after it was already a finished product. They intended to have the dialogue choices from the start. They seriously meant to have it; it isn't a random thing.
The dialogue stuff actually improves replay ability by allowing for three separate paths too choose as a player.

So, explain to me how any of this 'multipathing' is going to matter outside of what build a character is going to be. Last I checked, in other Bioware games your decisions have consequences that don't just effect you but elements in the world around you. Things like your standing in certain factions and who your 'friends' are. All far and good in a single player game where how NPCs think of you matters, but in an MMO where all an NPC is for is shopping and quests all your dialogue choices are going to amount to how it will affect your build, not how it will effect your standing with them.

ME/DA story mechanics work fine in a single player game, and they could be refurbished to work here remembering its an MMO and MMOs don't work the same way single player RPGs do. From what I've seen, its no better than double-clicking an NPC and getting a list of quests to choose from.

Sonic Doctor:
It isn't really WoW terminology they are using. It may have come from WoW, but now that terminology is something that people use for all MMO's.

So what if they used the word "tank", it is just a term used to describe a character that can take more and deal out more damage then other characters.
What else you going to call them, toughie, bus, bulldozer, well rounded character that takes lots of damage, what?

Why does each MMO have to have it's own language to describe the fighting abilities of classes? They don't because it would be stupid.

Ok, you have me there. I will give you that, it isn't WOW terminology as it is MMORPG terminology. Even with a heavy story emphasis that actually matters players are still going to be looking for tanks, healers and DPSers to go defend a shield generator or something.

Sonic Doctor:
Also, who cares if some people are going to skip the dialogue. Why does an MMO always have to be about raids? You didn't like that they used terms that WoW players would say. Why did you used a WoW term "raiding"? Why do people have to raid in this game? They don't, people can easily just play the game with some friends/guild members and experience the story together, or play the whole game by themselves. The game is partly designed to be like KotOR, so there will be a way for players to solo things.

It isn't that some will skip, but most will skip. Skipping what might have been an interesting story because it doesn't matter to gameplay. It isn't like playing Mass Effect where the story is a heavy part of the experience that would make gameplay feel hollow and pointless.

Also, about 'raiding', if the storyline doesn't matter, than the focus of the game becomes just being the most powerful, and this is done by an evil construct known as 'grinding' which is the only reason you would play an MMO once the game loses its 'magic'. Now, there are people who don't go into raids, but they still play with others, either co-operatively through PvE or competitively in PvP. As for people who just want to solo: Why are you paying good money and wasting bandwidth connecting to a server to play a single player game? People play MMOs to play and share the experience with other people, not to just go it alone, its silly.

Sonic Doctor:
Why do they have to design it as a table-top roleplay? Why can't they make the story mechanic like it is? Do you really want to play another MMO where you talk to an NPC and they just spout some random hello line and you get a wall of text and a accept quest button?

ITS A MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME NOT A SINGLE PLAYER GAME! It appears my analogy might have been lost, so let me reiterate. You don't design a Table-Top roleplaying game, intended to be played by more than one person, the same way you would design a choose your own adventure book, intended to be played (in a matter of speaking) by one. The former is a self-defining story that is made up as you go to account for the players playing and their choices. The latter is a multipath storyline where the decision are defined for a single person to navigate. Think of Mass Effect as a choose your own adventure novel and World of Warcraft as a table-top rpg. Creepy enough, that analogy really does fit if you think about it.

Though on your point about another text-dump NPC shenanigans... no I don't want to play that again. I roll my eyes as I skip the flavor text knowing that none of it matters, which makes me weep for the fact that writers were hired to write it. However, if a player is going to skip reading flavor text do you really think their are going to take a ME/DA dialogue tree any more seriously. For it is going to matter about as much.

Sonic Doctor:
I guess the old gamer adage is correct: Gamers may ask for something different, but don't give it to them, because they will just complain about how you changed it and it is different from the norm.

I'm not mad so much that they are changing it, please I give them brownie points for trying. My concern is that it this 'change' isn't going to change jack shit.

Considering that I remember the anger behind games like Metroid Prime for not sticking to formula but turned out to be good I understand that analogy.

I admit I can't say for sure until its out. However, from what I saw its more of the same with dialogue trees in place of those text dumps. More flavor text that I don't need to concern myself with. More pseudo-choices that have no influence on the greater game world. Just more of the same.

I mean, why not have pure player driven stories? This would be one step towards having a MMORPG that understands the RPG part is more than numbers and reward schedules.

Sleekit:
adding "raids" was a requirement of the pre-existing market as such there's nothing wrong with any of this.

all i see is a bunch of folk saying they want something different but completely devoid of any suggestion as to what that might be and when they do suggest something (like "lightsabers should be a one hit kill" or "there should be no one capable of soaking up damage") its completely unworkable in the framework of actual gameplay.

i'd love someone to actually lay out how they'd set about controlling an MMO boss encounter of any real consequence without the tank/DPS/healer model without it descending into total RNG dependant chaos. GW2 won't crack this nut either. both games have heals and damage on many multiple classes. the only reason people are assigned as healers and the like in this "Operation" is because they are instinctively "min maxing" and whether anyone will admit it or not that's going to happen in GW2 too because in essence its not a game mechanic at all but a player driven response. even if it wasn't facilitated it would be done anyway.

perhaps i should join in and try and be edgy and counter to the prevailing zeitgeist too
"hey how bout a system like that French MMO where you only had one life ?"
"what French MMO ?"
"exactly"
nah i can't be bothered.

this game is light years ahead of WoW and is going to do great business. i will be playing it. if you're not meh. i don't expect MMOs to be shown much appreciation on a site like this which is so dominated by console gamers.

This, A hundred million billion times this.

"WE WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT!!111!!! OMG TIRE OF SAME THING!!!!"
*Mention something different*
"wut?"

Seriously, it's gotten so old. People keep bringing up GW2. Yeah, that'll totally be different in that it will be just like pretty much any other MMO.

Wicky_42:

Sleekit:
i'd love someone to actually lay out how they'd set about controlling an MMO boss encounter of any real consequence without the tank/DPS/healer model without it descending into total RNG dependant chaos.

By working a different game model, perhaps? I mean, why was that boss droid so tough? A lightsaber would slice through it just as easily as its cannon shots would have gibbed their targets, so perhaps they shouldn't have been casually running up to it and waving their shiny swords at its knee caps; perhaps they should have been circling it, avoiding its line of fire, taking cover, luring it close enough to jump out and slash off a limb. Perhaps have some fucking consequences to BEING SLASHED BY A FREAKING LIGHTSABER other than a healthbar dropping fractionally. Perhaps make blasters (you know, those things that fry you in a single shot (if you hit)) more than a brief particle effect to be ignored? The Old Republic made being shot just an inconvenience, but this atrocity makes it an irrelevance. The only reason anyone died in that video is because they couldn't be arsed waiting 30 seconds for the droid to kindly stop shooting them with the one attack that actually hurt. So much condense bullshit being dropped all over what Star Wars could have been.

Why were you ever interested in this game at all? Why read an article on it? Why comment angrily about it? You obviously never played a single KOTOR game, or did, then for some reason thought this would be different than either KOTOR or KOTOR 2.

You're looking for The Force Unleashed, not a turn based roleplaying game.

As a reply to some of the arguments in this thread. TOR, last time I checked, is going to be a fully voiced MMORPG. Meaning the dialogue wheel will be there etc, but those NPC's will also talk just like ME/DA. That alone should help with "flavor text" issues.

Part of why WoW gets so stale and boring over time is that it doesn't give the players any reason to care about the quests, the larger game world or why its happening. Sure, it's nice to have an 85 and get geared, but in all honesty most of the "story" gets over looked because it's not a coherent story at all. It's nothing more than just a very linear chain of quests leading to the next zone and the next. I think that, hopefully, making TOR highly story driven will help to make players actually care about the game world. And if players care for the game world they are more likely to want to see more and explore it.

Also, I think it would be very hard to break out of the MMO trifecta, tank/heals/dps for any mmo. This mechanic is present, to some degree, in both of the kotor games. Personally I think people should stop complaining about a game that hasn't even been released yet and almost no one has had hands on game time with. From the videos I've seen it looks to be a larger re-imagining of the kotor universe and since I enjoyed both games this looks to be a world I'd like to visit for awhile.

After reading everything here I really only have 1 thing to say. Everyone, and I mean everyone, should take a look at Star Trek Online. Its different, much like guild wars 1 in several ways. Theres very little in the way of the holy trifecta of mmos, either in Space or Ground combat. There is a huge diversity of skills, races and abilities. There are "heroes" in the form of your bridge officer crew, so most of the game can be solo'd. Everything about your ship can be customized, and your character look, and your bridge officer look, and all of your abilities and bridge officer abilities. You can even set your own personal difficulty for the missions. The graphics are fairly good as well. Much of the main episodes are voiced. The main drawbacks are the lack of an over-arching story (although some portions will have greatly connecting stories) and serious end game content. I've heard pvp is fun as well, although I havent really tried it, too focused on getting a second Vice Admiral (my main was a science officer, mostly sticking to science ships, now I'm working on an Engi who flies cruisers)

From what I can tell, a lot of that is what people are expecting/asking of new mmo's, cover, supressing fire mechanics, a break from the total requirement of the holy trifecta, movoment and dodges during combat, and a bit of strategy. (firing arcs and shield positions in space, flanking, cover, movement and dodge mechanics on the ground) There are no set tanks, no real serious aggro tables, and if you take a huge hit after your shields are gone, your basically down. Even healing is limited to basically one class with only 2 or 3 skills, and only if they specifically build that way. And its not some sort of super magical healing either, its injections and hyposprays.

As I said, the story is slightly lacking, but it stays incredibly true to the Star Trek univers. Playing STO is like watching or being in an episode of star trek. Some of the story archs are incredibly interesting, and there is a HUGE variety of missions that can be taken on, from exploration to diplomacy to science to rescue and combat. Even to the point of having two leveling tiers, one for rank in your faction (which grants your basic abilities, new ships, so on) and one for your diplomacy rank (which grants new hearth points and other benefits)

All of this is innovative, and about as different from WoW as you can get, graphics wise, gameplay wise, story wise, and even the feel of the world..... and you know what? It's doing terribly, sitting only around 1 million subs.....after a year and a half.

So you can say what you like about how that's what people "want" in mmo's, and how any mmo that follows the gameplay structure of WoW will be boring and fail and doesn't innovate at all, but seriously, look at the example I just gave, look at the NUMBERS, and explain to me how well all that innovation worked for STO.

I think I'll be more than happy to be comfortable and familiar with my controls in TOR, and enjoy the hundreds upon hundreds of hours enjoying the story that bioware has developed differently for each and every class. So far as I'm concerned, that alone, coming from bioware and set in the KoToR universe, will make TOR worth playing every class to the end. If, at the end, it turns out to be just a daily grind/raid boring thing like WoW, then when I'm done seeing all the story, I'll drop it.

Wicky_42:
The thing is, why should you have to 'imagine' that all the dozens or hundreds of hits your character receives miss until the fatal blow miss? You have freaking lightsabers - deflect the rounds (like KOTOR did), clash blades in duels, have a stamina bar that gets whittled down as you make saves, making subsequent saves harder instead of a health system to absorb all the hits, have manually executed dodge moves, rolls, ducks and weaves to make combat fluid and real without casually nuking suspension of disbelief.

Well they do deflect blaster bolts and clash blades, but what about when two enemies are attacking you at the same time? Which blade do you block, the one in front? Does that mean the lightsaber hit from behind is insta-death or knocks off half your health? These aren't choreographed films where every fight can be planned in painstaking detail. There are outliers and unexpected circumstances. Players can move while fighting, how does a blade clash work then (sometimes it can, but not always)? The clashes, blocks and dodges can't play all the time. At some point you're going to have to suspend your disbelief. And this game follows an established model of MMO combat, with HP, energy bars, cooldowns and stat calculations. We've seen it in EQ, WoW, Rift, FF and a host of other games. It's fine to call out that system in a general sense, but I don't think it's fair to criticize TOR so harshly for using it. It's Star Wars in MMO form, not an MMO warped to fit every "reality" of Star Wars. It's okay not to like that, but plenty do.

Wicky_42:
If smacks of a complete disregard for the source material to take characters who can literally perceive the future and deflect bullets and then just have them 'tank' attacks that should, again literally, vaporise them in a single hit. There's the CoD/KOTOR/whatever suspension of disbelief where you can take a good few hits, but its rare to take it so far that weapons fire is so inconsequential that you can quite happily stand still in the open in front of a pair of anti-vehicle weapons emplacements, trade rounds with them for 10 minutes (again, just standing there, no evasion, no cover, just swapping rounds constantly) and then win. That's just taking things to a new level of bullshittery that MMOs really need to get over.

Perhaps, but again this is an established set of mechanics and presentation that has served the genre well. Fortunately for fans of variety, games like GW2 and--to some extent--Tera, are looking to shake up the standardized formula. It may very well pay off. However I don't think TOR will be any worse off using an established from of MMO combat. Yes, that's one less thing to put it ahead of the herd and the decision might haunt them someday, but there's no way to know. I guess everyone just wants to get their votes in early or something.

Dukenstein:
It looks eeeeeehhh. It can go two ways, either take the world by storm or be the new wow or be a super wow clone that just bombs.

One... two... FIVE.
Three sir!
Three!

OT: Looks pretty awesome, love the combat being more dynamic than WoW's (you know how WoW has the group split doing 3 things at the same time during trash and such? No? Exactly).

wow with laz0rs.... hurrrmm...... Not sure that is exactly what I expected..

Guess I'll check out the reviews and boards after launch before deciding on this one.

Looks cool. I'd give it a go, just to play Sith Rogue-tank <3

Baldr:
WoW with lightsabres, sweet.

That's exactly what I said when I played beta...I was in game for about 5 minutes. Logged out in disgust and that is the end of that.

On the one hand, I've been sitting on the fence about this game for a while, and the only thing that made me tip was finding out that my old WoW guild was moving over (got sick of that game a couple years back). On the other hand, anyone complaining about the combat in this game apparently has not played KOTOR in a while, if at all. The first thing that popped into my head after seeing the video was that it is kind of cool that you can actually take cover and not have shots go right through objects.

So... Yeah. No surprises here, but if I wanted novelty I probably wouldn't be looking into a quasi-sequel to an 8 year old game.

So, it's a hotkey MMO that's actually fun to watch. (Watch this and then go watch a walkthrough of any bossfight in WoW, then tell me which one was more entertaining to watch.) Course, with all the "hardcore" gamers complaining about lack of skill, go and check out TotalBiscuit's show of TOR's PVP combat. (Via YouTube) It's nice to see an MMO PvP where any class can beat another class, and it's all down to teamwork, skill, and luck. Much better than WoW's rogue-shanks-all combat.

Still a bit tired of hotkey MMOs, but I might just end up playing it just for the RPG content. Guess I'll decide when the reviews come out. (And if the Escapist reviewer says "It's a WoW clone" I'm going to throw a fit.)

I guess by looking at TOR threads most people on this site don't have anything specifically against the game, but more against it being another hotkey based MMO. Or they're people with completely wrong expectations about the game, but those are always present. :P

I for one played WoW for a long time during its second and third expansion, but didn't like the direction the game was going in. I loved that during the Burning Crusade you could get really far in raiding progress if you were a good player and put some effort into it. So what I never got far in Sunwell, I had fun trying.

If this game is anything like that, and I have good reason to believe it will be, I can see myself playing it for quite a while. Also the story-driven aspect really appeals to me as well.

I'm in the Testing right now.

It's unfinished, obviously.

It's buggy.

And it's damn-near excellent!

Usually I'm up for everyone having their own opinions, but when your voicing on a game you haven't played, especially when I've had a sneak peek, I'm going to give you the finger.

It's got some WoW influence in it, sure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's not too much, I PROMISE!!!

Now go give BioWare your money. Seriously. NAO!

Raids are ok, but show me some PvP!

I'm not gonna complain will look forward to playing this by myself for sheer story and with friends for well more story again but likely with a lot more me swearing cause my friend is totally gonna find a way to get me killed for lulz in some weird or unbelievable method.

LogicNProportion:
I'm in the Testing right now.

It's unfinished, obviously.

It's buggy.

And it's damn-near excellent!

Usually I'm up for everyone having their own opinions, but when your voicing on a game you haven't played, especially when I've had a sneak peek, I'm going to give you the finger.

It's got some WoW influence in it, sure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's not too much, I PROMISE!!!

Now go give BioWare your money. Seriously. NAO!

? You serious? Give money for this piece of crap:?
How about no Scott.

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