Deus Ex - Boss Fights

 Pages 1 2 3 4 NEXT
 

Deus Ex - Boss Fights

Shamus lists his frustrations with Human Revolution.

Read Full Article

The Escapists best contributor has returned! Hear hear!

Reading this is like an extremely coherent version of my splutterings whilst watching my girlfriend play through HR. (I'm too poor for games.) She beat the last humanoid boss in under three seconds thanks to the broken pre-order bonuses too.

He's back! Oh, joyous day! Here's a youngin' that appreciates this man's 20 years of PC gaming (as apposed to my 2).

First: Finally, Shamus, you are back!!!
Huzzzaaah!!!!

OT: "It's a shame Eidos decided to outsource the boss fights, and even worse that they apparently outsourced them to people who had no understanding of the rest of the game."
That's... retarded! Outsource such a vital component, just makes my eyes grow wide with disbelief.
Outsource the cutscenes next time, geniuses!!!

i freaked out when i saw this in the recent posts box! i spent like five minutes searching for it.

Great to have you back and all that!

The boss fights were cheesy, but not hard (I played on Hard and earned the Pacifist achievement. I was very stealthy). I'd say the boss fights are actually probably easier for nonlethal players. Why? We're more likely to have the Stun Gun in our inventory, and that weapon makes bosses trivial.

Hey, he's not dead! Oh, happy day!

Fair enough, except that the combat character can just stroll by those locked safes and secure doors and find some other way through. The hacker doesn't have that option.

Of course he does, what are you talking about. Anyone can take any augs, it's not like you can't have points in both hacking AND wall-punching/lifting. A hacker who prefers stealth will likely get the Ghost and Smooth Operator bonuses, thus enabling him to get more augs than someone who goes in guns blazing and gets a measly 10 xp per kill.
Also, the combat character can't always stroll past. The game has some forced hacking sections.

The boss fights are one-dimensional, obvious, and boring. You do a tiny bit of damage to the bad guy. He does massive damage to you. Chip away at his health bar without taking more than one consecutive hit, or its game over.

Chuck a gas, emp or concussion grenade at him to stun him. Use the enviroment against him (explosive barrels, electrified floors and so forth). Activate your invisibility and/or Typhoon. Position yourself so he has to jump over cover to get to you. These aren't all the same thing.

poiumty:

Fair enough, except that the combat character can just stroll by those locked safes and secure doors and find some other way through. The hacker doesn't have that option.

Of course he does, what are you talking about. Anyone can take any augs, it's not like you can't have points in both hacking AND wall-punching/lifting. A hacker who prefers stealth will likely get the Ghost and Smooth Operator bonuses, thus enabling him to get more augs than someone who goes in guns blazing and gets a measly 10 xp per kill.

The boss fights are one-dimensional, obvious, and boring. You do a tiny bit of damage to the bad guy. He does massive damage to you. Chip away at his health bar without taking more than one consecutive hit, or its game over.

Chuck a gas, emp or concussion grenade at him to stun him. Use the enviroment against him (explosive barrels, electrified floors and so forth). Activate your invisibility and/or Typhoon. Position yourself so he has to jump over cover to get to you. These aren't all the same thing.

The fact that you can take ALL the augs in the first place is kinda symptomatic of the kind of decay Shamus is talking about, and yes whilst the game offers a more varied approach to combat than say, call of duty, they are still variations on the same theme of "to defeat the demon, shoot at it until it dies."

It just doesn't feel anywhere near as polished or thought out as the decisions you're faced with in other parts of the game, and that's a shame.

Shamus Young:
Experienced Points: Deus Ex - Boss Fights

Shamus lists his frustrations with Human Revolution.

Read Full Article

The second bossfight in the... surprisingly empty building (spoiler free description), I actually just used the stun gun. It stunned the target longer than it took to reload. 11 Stun guns (at medium difficulty) and the boss died. This was with full stealth getup.

I actually liked the boss fights after I realized that cloaking worked on them as well as it worked on you. The first one I stunned the guy, and then hid. Picked him off slowly with other weapons, and that was that. Once it became a stealth shoot + hide fight, it suddenly became awesome.

Still, I think Saemus has hit the head on a lot of points here. There is a pandemic in game protagonists that causes their normal brain functions to slow when they get close to bosses. Jumping out of cover to talk with them like they are best friends.

This is why you shouldn't even HAVE these direct dialogs. Maybe have two versions of the cut scene, based on skill point spending. One where you sneak in, and initiate from stealth, one where you walk in and lock'n'load. Dunno.

Funny thing is, there actually ARE crazy things you can do with these bosses, it's just not obvious without foreknowledge. The first boss can be cheesed easily just by using the stun gun, the 2nd boss can't actually kill you if you've got EMP shielding, and the 3rd boss can be beaten by reprogramming a turret to attack enemies and carrying it with you to the fight so it kills him in about 5 seconds.

poiumty:

Fair enough, except that the combat character can just stroll by those locked safes and secure doors and find some other way through. The hacker doesn't have that option.

Of course he does, what are you talking about. Anyone can take any augs, it's not like you can't have points in both hacking AND wall-punching/lifting. A hacker who prefers stealth will likely get the Ghost and Smooth Operator bonuses, thus enabling him to get more augs than someone who goes in guns blazing and gets a measly 10 xp per kill.
Also, the combat character can't always stroll past. The game has some forced hacking sections.

The boss fights are one-dimensional, obvious, and boring. You do a tiny bit of damage to the bad guy. He does massive damage to you. Chip away at his health bar without taking more than one consecutive hit, or its game over.

Chuck a gas, emp or concussion grenade at him to stun him. Use the enviroment against him (explosive barrels, electrified floors and so forth). Activate your invisibility and/or Typhoon. Position yourself so he has to jump over cover to get to you. These aren't all the same thing.

Pretty sure the complaint is that YOU CAN'T HIDE BOYSCOUT. In the first game, every bossfight could be avoided in some fashion, even if it was just running the fuck away.

Please tell me this will be a regular feature again... oh please tell me it'll be regular again...

Anyway, fully agreed. Though I played as a mix of both and had a beefed up shotgun, still made me sad that I couldn't hack the bosses, sneak up on them, sneak past them, or hell, just run past them, leaving them bewildered and going "did he just do that?!"

Or, perhaps if they were actually characterized, had actual motivations and personalities, I might have been fine with having to kill them, if it made sense story-wise and offered a decent reason.

poiumty:

Fair enough, except that the combat character can just stroll by those locked safes and secure doors and find some other way through. The hacker doesn't have that option.

Of course he does, what are you talking about. Anyone can take any augs, it's not like you can't have points in both hacking AND wall-punching/lifting. A hacker who prefers stealth will likely get the Ghost and Smooth Operator bonuses, thus enabling him to get more augs than someone who goes in guns blazing and gets a measly 10 xp per kill.
Also, the combat character can't always stroll past. The game has some forced hacking sections.

Hacking sections which are at the easiest difficulty. A better comparison for a stealth/hacking character fighting a boss would be like forcing someone with no hacking augs being forced to hack a level 4 door.

That really was a stupid list.

1. Forced to talk to bosses, even when playing game stealthfully.
2. Forced to fight bosses with guns only.
3. Damage your gun inflicts against bosses is weak.
4. Bosses lack intelligence nor reacts to your actions.
5. Bosses are flat, bland characters.

You had one opinion which was "i dont like the bosses or boss fights" which is fine. I hate the bosses, hate the way you have to fight them with guns, fact your cant sneak attack them or bypass them. Why you needed to make 5 points is beyond me. Hope your previous posts are better than this because this really wasnt good at all because no one liked the boss fights.

BlindTom:

The fact that you can take ALL the augs in the first place is kinda symptomatic of the kind of decay Shamus is talking about

But this is about boss fights, not problems with the balance of mechanics. The complaint about there being boss fights that you can't skip or masterfully override is completely valid, but the part about there being less options for "hackers" (or less options overall, ignoring the fact that you can't skip them) is not.

Irridium:

Hacking sections which are at the easiest difficulty. A better comparison for a stealth/hacking character fighting a boss would be like forcing someone with no hacking augs being forced to hack a level 4 door.

That would mean you're forced to take a certain aug before doing something, which simply isn't true with bosses.
edit: to elaborate, all the bosses require by way of augs is having a certain item in your inventory. I.e. something that can kill things. If you don't, one will be lying around the place you fight. I checked.

Some legit points, but I wasn't that bothered by the boss fights. I played some weird mix of movement and stealth, it wasn't until the bosses that I tried weapons. I read that's the reason they put them in. Also there are some easy tactics to beat em if you hate em. I killed all bosses with 2-3 remote explosives.

That said, it's still weird in such a free play game.

Why isn't there a similar asterisk after Batman Arkham Asylum?
Play the same boss fight like SIX times? Pretty much convinced me to lay off Arkham City until it hits bargin bin prices

Shamus Young:
Experienced Points: Deus Ex - Boss Fights

Shamus lists his frustrations with Human Revolution.

Read Full Article

Damn man, I've never played the game but you make the bosses sound like Mass Effect 2's Harbinger.

Well I haven't played Deus Ex HR yet, so I really can't comment on the topic other than "yeah I heard the bosses suck."

However... hurray Experienced Points! I hope you start updating at least slightly more frequently again.

Some of the points were dead on (particularly cut scene stupidity and bosses having no real character to make the fight meaningful in any way), but some almost seemed like they were made about a different game.

First, if there is a wrong way to play the game, it's actually not the way most players will play the game at all. I'd imagine most players are playing with a stealth/hacking oriented play style and that's actually the "right" way to play. Stealthing and hacking help you avoid the tougher combat sections, get you more loot, give you more incidental storyline material and gives you more interesting paths to follow. Even with the bosses, your stealth augs and a less gun focused style is the better one to take (witness how easy the bosses are made just by using the stungun and disabling grenades for a quick example).

Second, because there are basically no actual combat augs to spend points on, it makes no sense to complain about having spent points on skills that don't impact the boss. Sure there are some augs that make the boss fights easier (electricity shielding, gas protection, cloaking, etc.) but there really aren't any combat augs other than Typhoon. As far as I know, nothing is impervious to the typhoon but I was able to get through the game easily without even buying it at all. Surely if you happened to spend all of your points on inventory size and extra energy cells, you've spent points on stuff that won't directly help you fight a boss.. but it's not like you could have spent those points on, say, making your shotgun do more damage because there just isn't a skill that even does that sort of thing in the first place.

He's baaaack!

Actually I've been following Spoiler Warning in your blog since your last Experienced points article. (P.S: it's awesome.)

OT: I really have to get around Human Revolution one day, damn backlog.

This is the first time I heard boss fights were outsourced. So, can we be expecting a directors cut? Maybe a mod?

Seems like the best solution is to would be to get a game mod/cheat that instantly won all the boss fights.

Come to think of it I looked for something like that to let my bypass the combat in Mass Effect 2....

Yay, Shamus is back!! :D

And yes, even though I absolutely loved Human Revolution, that footnote about the stupid boss fights will no doubt be cemented as the unfortunate qualifier. It really is as Yahtzee remarked years ago - the closer a game gets to perfection, the more glaring its flaws become.

And that, children, is why you don't outsource games.

The whole main character brainfreeze isn't exclusive to Deus Ex. It reared its ugly head first in the Metal Gear Solids, and is still one of my biggest "Seriously?" issues I have with that franchise. They kind of explained why there are bosses bottlenecking you, and to be fair, bosses always were one of MGS's strongest suits, but still, learning every single time that whenever I snuck into a place my enemies were actually in on it made me feel like less of a bad ass and more of a dingbat.

My issue with the DX:HR bosses is, even though there might be options laying around, they're not well optimised. It's not so much that they are that difficult, but they pull you out. And then clumsily jerk you around. And it's like the industry never learns. Same mistake that Alpha Protocol did, and same mistake Vampire the Masquerade had all those gazillion years ago, as well.

Bosses that expect you to use a predetermined aproach on them despite your build... Bosses that expect you to use a predetermined aproach on them despite your build never change.

In a very brief defense of the boss fights, I would say that my hero did not have invisibility (had but not used), recoil reduction, improved aim while moving, or body armour for the first 3 bosses (well, I had body armour for the 3rd, but I also lost no health during the fight), and I fully expect to walk over any remaining ones as well. Characters who have no points invested in any combat talent can trivialize these fights with a stun gun, an EMP grenade, and whatever lethal damaging weapon they happen to be carrying at the time, or loot from the room (thus far, all have provided lethal stuff in case you somehow have no gun). So I wouldn't say that not investing in combat is a "wrong" way to play, since the talents are unnecessary for the mandatory combat components.

I otherwise totally agree. My character was very stealthy, approached nothing brashly or quickly, and killed very few people until after the apartment event (all those belonging to the group or groups involved now receive a silenced bullet to the head after a non-lethal take-down). In the cut scenes he took a completely different approach, one that was nothing like how I had been playing him the rest of the game; the cut scenes for bosses/antagonizing NPCs are always jarring.

I would also like to point out that while I prefer to play stealth, on the occasions where I do kill an enemy it is obvious that the game is heavily biased towards non-lethal/stealth play for all sequences that aren't boss fights, what with getting 20XP for a kill compared to 50 for a non-lethal melee knockout, plus the Ghost and some other bonus. The boss fights seem almost like an apology to the players who "foolishly" decided they wanted to play aggressively.

Always wondered why Naked Fleshy Man's plasma gun did more damage than when I was using it.

I'm glad I got the rocket launcher before the first boss fight; 1 frag grenade to disorient him, 1 rocket, 6 revolver shots and 1 assault rifle bullet. Didn't even take 1 minute to kill him.

The "Boss" fights were lame and immersion breaking.

That part at the end where you have to talk that guy down to get the

that felt like a boss fight (in the context of the game).

For me DE-HR fell apart in the ending. I didn't like any of the endings - or the final fight.

I've given up playing out of frustration with the third boss. Not only does it have the usual problem of having to fight a grenade spamming instakill boss in a horrendously forced & poorly justified situation; but because of a decision made earlier in the game I have to try & put up with it while my HUD is dancing around the screen, obscuring the view & rendering it impossible to see my health, ammo or minimap.

Not to mention the boss fights are somewhat more buggy than the rest of the game.
The second, invisible boss got stuck running into a wall while I sat there blithely pelting her with bullets.

Did save on the annoyance factor, though.

*Potential spoilers*

poiumty:

Fair enough, except that the combat character can just stroll by those locked safes and secure doors and find some other way through. The hacker doesn't have that option.

Of course he does, what are you talking about. Anyone can take any augs, it's not like you can't have points in both hacking AND wall-punching/lifting. A hacker who prefers stealth will likely get the Ghost and Smooth Operator bonuses, thus enabling him to get more augs than someone who goes in guns blazing and gets a measly 10 xp per kill.

Well, yeah you can drop points in to both, but what if you don't want to? I certainly didn't, I wanted to use all my augs on mobility and stealth, but the game forced my hand and I ended up having to pick some augs I really didn't want because I knew I'd need them. Broke the whole 'play the way you want to' deal for me.

Also, the combat character can't always stroll past. The game has some forced hacking sections.

The only hacks in the game that I remember being forced to make (i.e. to advance the main plotline) were level 1. Thus I didn't need any augs to complete them. In fact I finished the main story without dropping any points into hacking whatsoever.

The boss fights are one-dimensional, obvious, and boring. You do a tiny bit of damage to the bad guy. He does massive damage to you. Chip away at his health bar without taking more than one consecutive hit, or its game over.

Chuck a gas, emp or concussion grenade at him to stun him. Use the enviroment against him (explosive barrels, electrified floors and so forth). Activate your invisibility and/or Typhoon. Position yourself so he has to jump over cover to get to you. These aren't all the same thing.

Yes, they are. They are all combat options. Don't even pretend invisibility was an option, your batteries at full upgrade died too quick to be of any use in any of the boss fights.

Where was the option to hack into the security network, see the boss coming and take him out with the security turrets, or set a robot on them?
Where was the option to sneak into the vents and bypass them completely?
Where was the option to use your social augs to talk the mercs around to your side?

All of the boss fights felt sloppy, and poorly designed, and I'm amazed that they ever made it through playtesting.

Ya the repeating taunts are really annoying. I've no idea why they do them but they do. Though I did find the second boss fight sort of interesting. The water ripples to track the bad gal and the whole cat and mouse thing was kinda fun. Then again I liked that section of the game in general.

I see a lot of people saying 'oh the games biased towards hack/stealth gameplay, those people get more points than combat!'. (Not just in this thread, but in pretty much every thread about the boss fights)

Of course they do, they need more augs.
There are very few combat augs in the game, but a plethora of stealth and hacking ones. They need more points because they have more abilities to unlock.

Besides, once you've cleaned out a building there's nothing to stop you from looking around and getting all those 'Explorer' points.

WaysideMaze:

Well, yeah you can drop points in to both, but what if you don't want to? I certainly didn't, I wanted to use all my augs on mobility and stealth, but the game forced my hand and I ended up having to pick some augs I really didn't want because I knew I'd need them. Broke the whole 'play the way you want to' deal for me.

You really don't need those augs. At no point in the game are you ever forced to get augs unless you REALLY want to restrict yourself somehow.

How much more can this site rip on Human Revolution? Its not like the game was bad...

I'll admit the game has issues but it's sure a step above most at the moment.

 Pages 1 2 3 4 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here