Jimquisition: Online Passes Are Bad For Everybody

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The jewelery business is completely dead due to pawn shops. They make no money whatsoever. Didn't you hear? That entire industry went under. If only they had found a way to screw with their paying customers, they may have been able to save themselves. Why would anyone buy new jewelery when used (stolen) jewelery at a pawn shop is cheaper. Oh, right...

Jim's first point is right on. If I could never ever trade in my games, I would be forced to buy far fewer new and used. Guess who loses on that deal: all the game new publishers who aren't making AAA titles.

Anyone else remember Nintendo trying to sue Blockbuster because they thought game rentals would drive them out of business?

TheDooD:

Mouse_Crouse:
I just don't understand why people are so against used games. The pump money into the industry and courts have upheld time and time again that we have the right to sell our licensed product to others. The publishers not seeing any money dosen't hold up either, because EVERY used game anywhere ever, was once a new game that was purchased.

They're money grubbing bastards that can careless about a happy fan base compared to lining their pockets with more money they'll never spend because they're afraid of taking risks. The funny thing is that Gamestop and other places that sell used games uses the money from said games to buy newer games, stock all those nice things gamers want and publishers want sold as well. They love gamestop when they're stocking their NEW stuff but wants them to burn in napalm the moment something used of theirs is for sell.

Have you been to a GameStop lately? Their new game selection is terrible. I find more new games at my local Best Buy, Target and Walmart.

Hell, not a single GameStop within 40 miles of me got Demon's Souls in for 3-4 weeks after it was released in the States. I know, because I checked back frequently and they eventually said they'd inform of when they got it in stock. I already had it of course, because flipping Super Target got in Demon's Souls before a store dedicated ENTIRELY TO GAMING.

Also they're refusal to carry more than 15 PC games makes me want to punch walls. Why would they? No ability to resell those.

Sylocat:
They could set up a part of their website specifically devoted to trade-ins. Players could sell used copies of the game to one another, using the publisher themselves as the middle-men, and the publisher would get some money out of the deal.

The advantage to doing this over GameStop would be that the publishers wouldn't have to take nearly as big of a cut of each transaction in order to stay in business, so the seller gets more, the buyer pays less, and everyone goes home with more money in their pocket.

As an added bonus, you could also do this with serial numbers. Any used copy directly processed through the publisher's website would have the serial number automatically "reset" with no extra steps necessary... and any used copy sold through a third-party like GameStop would have to be called-in and processed (requiring proof of purchase, &c.). Even if you didn't charge any extra money for the serial number thing, the sheer CONVENIENCE of it would be a drawing point.

I agree. It can't be THAT hard to come up with an amicable solution can it? I was thinking something more along the lines of movies where every period they drop the price, getting maximum cash from the must-haves, decent cash from the wants and then cleaning up whatever is left with the bargain hunters. Every six months would be adequate I think to seperate the buyer types and would mean you could cut out the shops altogether.

An addition like a trade-in shop would allow something e-Bay like with each publisher allowing them to cream off 1% of any transaction fees while allowing others to trade out their title and another to trade in for earlier access.

This can't be that hard!

Man, remember the (short lived) days when you could go to a flea market and barter for used snes games and no one gave a damn? Those were the days...

I still collect pre PS2 era games and I don't order online, what's the problem paying for old used games?

I don't trade in any games, I'm a collector.

hitheremynameisbob:

TheDooD:

If they really cared that gamestop makes them money then why in the hell do they want them gone and why are they treating people who's still spending money like they're common thieves. I'm not playing the straw man I'm stating my own opinion because like quite a few people I know they can't buy every game and are pretty much forced to buy used and share accounts.

You think developers want Gamestop GONE? What on Earth are you basing that on? If they wanted Gamestop gone they'd just stop selling their games to them. You are using a straw man because you're claiming that developers are making an argument that they aren't. They like Gamestop in general because without Gamestop they'd lose a huge portion of their new game sales. They NEED Gamestop. If they didn't, they'd have stopped using Gamestop to distribute their games a long time ago. How developers treat us is irrelevant to this discussion. I don't like it any more than you do, but you're saying that developers don't recognize that Gamestop makes them money. They obviously do.

They just also claim that they'd make more money if Gamestop would stop selling used games.

They only real way they would make more money if games didn't cost $60+ and if they changed the base price to what was in that used game range of 10-45$. Yet most likely you know most Publishers aren't gonna fly with that at all. So when publishers as a collective decide to lower prices they're just gonna have to live with the fact is used games are here to stay and they kinda need to realize they're pretty much the reason why people go for used games as well. Think about the Holiday torrent of games that come out days apart if not on the same day. All said games been hyped all year and they know people want to buy them yet most can only buy 1-3 new while most are gonna wait till January for a used copy or wait until summer when its really cheap. Once they treat us better they'll get treated better simple as that. Most people aren't gonna to just deal with the bullshit.

I don't normally like the jimquisition but this one is pretty damn good.

Used games don't hurt the market, we need to get that through the game industry's thick skull.

JustaGigolo:
You know what hurts the game industry even more than online passes? Cheap people who wait a month after a game comes out just to get a used copy of a game, thus giving all their money to Gamestop, and not the creators or publishers of the game.

"Oh no, I can't play this shitty multiplayer without putting in a code. Oh woe is me."

What if we simply can't afford to buy it new? Hrm? You gonna tell us to go without food or fuel instead?

I buy used games because I have no choice. I can't afford to buy them new.

That last part really stood out for me. Publishers are treating me like a fucking criminal until I prove otherwise and after that they still are suspicious of me so they have DRM. I don't have to be treated like this. Niche devs like Atlus and NIS are happy to take my money and treat me like a paying customer.

well if people buy used games the publisher don't really get any cash from those.. (even though jim argued they'd get some when the sequel game comes out)

I'm for online passes. ^^ never really sold any of my games to some store eighter, and games in norway costs abot 100-120 USD new.

Sylocat:

Nurb:
I'm surprised that he hasn't pointed out that there is NO OTHER INDUSTRY that feels entitled to more money when a customer resells their product.

Shit, that's like companies demanding a cut of the sales from ebay.

There's no other industry where CONSUMERS feel entitled to buy a much cheaper used product that is functionally identical to the original.

When you buy a used car, you are accepting that there will be a certain amount of wear and tear, and thus some decreased functionality. When you buy a used book, you are risking page damage. A used VHS will have degraded some, a used DVD will probably have scratches and scuffs. Consumers don't care, or at least they don't blame the manufacturer.

But used games? When you play online, you are using the PUBLISHER's bandwidth. Bandwidth costs money. If you don't pay for the game, you are stealing money from them. Even the tired pirate argument of, "DURR, THEY DONT LOOZE ANY MUNNY FROM PIRACY, LOL!" doesn't apply, because you are costing them money for bandwidth.

Did you ever play the original xbox with LIVE? None of the publishers nor microsoft got all bitchy when used games could access the same content, patches and multiplayer as original owners.

It's only recently they're getting more whiney about the subject because they feel like nickle and diming customers in a new way. Wether it's been stopping expansion packs and charge for individual digital content, stopping dedicated servers, or day one DLC, they've always had to roll out the "PIRACY AND EVIL USED GAMES" bullshit so people will put up with it.

TheDooD:

They only real way they would make more money if games didn't cost $60+ and if they changed the base price to what was in that used game range of 10-45$. Yet most likely you know most Publishers aren't gonna fly with that at all. So when publishers as a collective decide to lower prices they're just gonna have to live with the fact is used games are here to stay and they kinda need to realize they're pretty much the reason why people go for used games as well. Think about the Holiday torrent of games that come out days apart if not on the same day. All said games been hyped all year and they know people want to buy them yet most can only buy 1-3 new while most are gonna wait till January for a used copy or wait until summer when its really cheap. Once they treat us better they'll get treated better simple as that. Most people aren't gonna to just deal with the bullshit.

That's fine, I agree that the way developers and publishers treat their customers, by and large, sucks. It's true that they set themselves up for some used game sales by releasing games on the schedule they do. I never said anything to the contrary. The problem is that you were claiming that these people want Gamestop to go out of business (or something), which is just absolutely wrong.

Well dang, I'm going to see Jim Sterling holding that sword in my nightmares now.

The very existence of used game selling (in this format) is total bull.
I don't care what you Americans complain about, a game in central europe is the exact same price but in some countries (mine) our salaries don't hold a candle to US salaries (it's a joke to compare them) yet I still buy new games. HOW DARES GAMESTOP to re-sell a game and give nothing to the publisher / developer (what ever) ?
I don't understand developers that let their game be re-sold and get NOTHING from that process. I 100% disagree with you sir!

Zyst:

Sucal:
Just pointing out, that any american who complains about $60 games should come buy games in Australia.

Just saying, anyone in the "First World" who complains about game prices should come to any third world country ever.

Games are around 100 (American) Dollars here (Mexico), and the minimum wage is 3 dollars, per day. That's right, not per hour, per day.

So next time you're thinking about complaining how games are really expensive over there, just... think about it, really.

How about if everyone quits trying to devalue the complaints of others because products are priced differently in different countries. The American who is paying $60 isn't to blame for the cost of games in Australia and the Americans complaint is just as valid as the Australians. $60 here is becoming harder and harder to come by but if you live in Australia, you wouldn't know that.

I wish Jim would do a show about that. "I pay more than you so you need to shut the fuck up!" = Bullshit!

Awesome vid with great points, join the new jimquisition fan group

Frostbite3789:

TheDooD:

Mouse_Crouse:
I just don't understand why people are so against used games. The pump money into the industry and courts have upheld time and time again that we have the right to sell our licensed product to others. The publishers not seeing any money dosen't hold up either, because EVERY used game anywhere ever, was once a new game that was purchased.

They're money grubbing bastards that can careless about a happy fan base compared to lining their pockets with more money they'll never spend because they're afraid of taking risks. The funny thing is that Gamestop and other places that sell used games uses the money from said games to buy newer games, stock all those nice things gamers want and publishers want sold as well. They love gamestop when they're stocking their NEW stuff but wants them to burn in napalm the moment something used of theirs is for sell.

Have you been to a GameStop lately? Their new game selection is terrible. I find more new games at my local Best Buy, Target and Walmart.

Hell, not a single GameStop within 40 miles of me got Demon's Souls in for 3-4 weeks after it was released in the States. I know, because I checked back frequently and they eventually said they'd inform of when they got it in stock. I already had it of course, because flipping Super Target got in Demon's Souls before a store dedicated ENTIRELY TO GAMING.

Also they're refusal to carry more than 15 PC games makes me want to punch walls. Why would they? No ability to resell those.

The closest GameStop to me has a pretty decent selection but its on a main road, next door to a starbucks, across the street from a IHOP, Taco bell and Burger King so it's mainly popular games now a days. I noticed its the GameStops that are more out of the way that have really good selections. Plus I been noticed all GameStops aren't ran equally. Different locations you'll get different consumer base and needs. Plus if you wonder if GameStop doesn't have something like Demons Souls sold in 40 miles of you. You aren't the only people looking for that game as well. Supply and Demand bit you in the ass, so its not their fault that you couldn't find something and most likely a few 100 or so people are looking for as well.

pheipl:
The very existence of used game selling (in this format) is total bull.
I don't care what you Americans complain about, a game in central europe is the exact same price but in some countries (mine) our salaries don't hold a candle to US salaries (it's a joke to compare them) yet I still buy new games. HOW DARES GAMESTOP to re-sell a game and give nothing to the publisher / developer (what ever) ?
I don't understand developers that let their game be re-sold and get NOTHING from that process. I 100% disagree with you sir!

Tell me sunshine, what other industry that produces and sells goods gets a percentage of used sales? What's that? None you say. What makes games so special?

NinjaDeathSlap:

JustaGigolo:
You know what hurts the game industry even more than online passes? Cheap people who wait a month after a game comes out just to get a used copy of a game, thus giving all their money to Gamestop, and not the creators or publishers of the game.

"Oh no, I can't play this shitty multiplayer without putting in a code. Oh woe is me."

Yes, because everyone can easily afford to pay for every game they want new before the price drop or before used ones start appearing.

Whoops, sorry, I didn't mean yes. I meant no, no way, and if you can then you are very much in the minority and you shouldn't be blaming others for having less money than you.

Gaming is a luxury hobby. If you can't afford it, then you need to find yourself other hobby. It's quite easy to avoid buying used games and still save a ton of money. There are plenty of free to play games and plenty of deals. Especially Steam and other DD services have tons of good deals all the time. And of course retailers have their own bargain bins. You don't always have to buy games at day one.

I know what he's trying to say to game publishers.

I.E. I bought Oblivion for 15 from Game and loved it, then a friend told me that Fallout 3 was better so I bought that second-hand too and LOVED it. New Vegas came out and I gave Obsidian 40 of my pounds. They win.

I don't know where in GODS name you are getting those props but my goodness they are a funny edition to the show.

First the 40k chainsword and now War's sword from Darksiders?

JustaGigolo:

NinjaDeathSlap:

JustaGigolo:
You know what hurts the game industry even more than online passes? Cheap people who wait a month after a game comes out just to get a used copy of a game, thus giving all their money to Gamestop, and not the creators or publishers of the game.

"Oh no, I can't play this shitty multiplayer without putting in a code. Oh woe is me."

Yes, because everyone can easily afford to pay for every game they want new before the price drop or before used ones start appearing.

Whoops, sorry, I didn't mean yes. I meant no, no way, and if you can then you are very much in the minority and you shouldn't be blaming others for having less money than you.

And people wonder where the self entitled, gamer brat stereotype came from.

Fucking economics, how does it work?

Everything goes down in price when nobody wants it anymore to help clear stock. If you're going to complain about economics, how can you forget that? You pay another form of currency if you can't afford to get it early and that is time.

Fuck, next thing you know people who watch sky movies instead of going to the cinema are going to be called self entitled film brats.

BrotherRool:

Point 3 is rubbish again because people will get better at it, like how Steam was completely crud when it first released.

And it's still fairly much crud. While it's better than some, it's still a bad way of doing it with a dodgy offline functionality, hilariously bad customer service, silly pricing (in Europe at least) and god damn hats. Gamers Gate is much superior.

BrotherRool:

And one minute of time really isn't that much of an issue. Take a chill pill instead, the information age is ruining your patience and respect for others :D Games as they are are stealing any worth from your life, its not like its an experience that will transcend your death or help other people.

No, it's the publishers and devs that have no respect for their customers. It's really that simple. While one minute indeed is not much it's still too much. As a PC gamer I know where it leads when the publishers treat you like shit. Oh, it starts out harmless enough but before you know it you're trying to play your game, only you cannot because Steam fucked up a CD key with TAGES or the secuROM client can't connect or StarForce forgot to make a 64bit version of their DRM or printed the wrong key in the cover or Steams offline function craps out again. That all started with a simple cd check. That hurt nobody, right? So don't just accept this crap like it's a fair deal.

BrotherRool:

In general, your false points are made even worse by the fact that used games are now being sold within the first week of a game being released. Used games take a serious amount of money from devs, and considering online actually creates an expense, used games are costing money to the people who made them, even before you begin trying to work out whether sales they would have made otherwise are greater than the sales will may potential arise as a result of a sequel down the line.

Perhaps the publishers should think a bit about why the games are being sold on after so short a while then? I propose that they themselves has created a market of disposable games by over saturation and shovelling a million titles out. Add to that the blatant disrespect for their own customers and it's a small wonder.

Furthermore, if P2P servers cost them very little I imagine. It's not like they are hosting a lot of it, and Microsoft makes sure they get paid as well.

If somebody knows John Riccatello (or whatever he's name is) please do sen him this video and tell him that I said Fuck You!

This problem will disapear, if digital distribution takes over, because somehow DD seems to get away with having no second hand market, because they're the only ones capable of providing it on their platforms, and somehow, people don't seem to care about it that way...

This is the whole reason why I didn't buy a current generation console yet: It's already takes pretty long to set up a modern game, and stuff like online passes and always-online DRM genuinely makes me feel like the publishers and the developers simple don't understand what people generally want from a game: Turn it on, and have fun.

If someone from the industry is reading this: Seriously, reconsider your strategy. It already sucks that you'll seem to need to have online multiplayer in every game nowadays, but it sucks even more that you charge everyone for it and let us type in a code just so we can use it.

I can kind of understand why you'll want to charge for multiplayer: Servers don't run on air. But there are better, more respectable ways to ask money for it. Like "Extra Credits" suggested once: Charge 30 bucks for a brand new copy of a game without the multiplayer, and then charge 15 bucks to unlock it. That way, it's cheaper for everyone, you don't overcharge people who just want the singleplayer, and you even make more money from it.

Seriously, think about it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would buy games again if you treat your customers better.

alinos:

Nurb:
I'm surprised that he hasn't pointed out that there is NO OTHER INDUSTRY that feels entitled to more money when a customer resells their product.

Shit, that's like companies demanding a cut of the sales from ebay.

except the games industry is like no other.

when you buy a used car it has wear and tear. A game does not. (if a used game has wear and tear generally it's painstakingly obvious. But trying telling whether or not the headgasket on the used car you have bought doesn't have a crack in it. That's going to break in a month.

You don't buy a car drive it to Mcdonalds then decide you want a new car. take it down to the lot you just bought the thing from slap a 10% discount on it and sell it. It simply doesn't work that way.

But I also don't have to buy a second car if I want someone to ride in my passenger seat.

And I'm not in any great danger of the highways being revoked due to lack of interest.

A difference in format does not justify a reduction of rights.

I buy used most of the time and I almost never play online, except for King of fighters, for wich i'm going to make an exception and buy KOF XII new. Good thing it's going to cost 49.99 usd, here's going to be around 700 pesos. Games that are 60 usd are 1,000 pesos here in mexico, screw that.

image

second word ???

teisjm:
This problem will disapear, if digital distribution takes over, because somehow DD seems to get away with having no second hand market, because they're the only ones capable of providing it on their platforms, and somehow, people don't seem to care about it that way...

Here here. If more AAA games could just be dled to my PS3 I would love it. I have a great connection and with proper preloading its no problem for slower connected users. But no they dont want to alienate brick and mortor stores like gamestop...who they hate...idiots.

Too bloody right Jim! I hate the online pass system! But the biggest problem I have with it is just the concept in itself. Publishers have no right to the money of a game being sold pre-owned. I have no idea where they got that idea because it exists nowhere else in consumer products! It's unbelievably greedy and selfish to believe that you are entitled to everything that happens to that game in the future! Once you sell the game that's it, you have no right to say what happens to it. The agreement involved in selling a game means that you have to give up a product in return of money, you're not allowed to then choose what happens after that. You don't expect Universal or Disney or anyone to want to take your money when you buy a movie in the bargin bin at Blockbusters. It would be insane if Ford demanded you pay them when you buy a second hand car! Games are no different! The whole idea is just insane!

So tired of online passes, online activation and DRM.
Shit like that makes me crack, hack and mod my registry and exe-files.

Zhukov:

Sucal:
Just pointing out, that any american who complains about $60 games should come buy games in Australia.

And any Australian who complains about game prices should try buying their games in New Zealand.
And any Kiwi who complains about game prices should try buying their games in Morocco.

And any Moroccan who complains about game prices should try bumming a guard dog...

OT: Sorry Jim but;


You're right, you're points are solid, but I fail to see the need to dedicate a whole episode to explain this very simple concept. Or maybe I just don't spend enough time on the internet.

TestECull:
I buy used games because I have no choice. I can't afford to buy them new.

TestECull:
I buy used games because I have no choice.

TestECull:
I have no choice.

TestECull:
no choice.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Don't buy the game/s?

Buy 1/3 the games you normally would?

Wait until the game's older and cheaper, but still buy it new?

Make more money?

Start a pool with your friends/family and buy games together, then share them.

Spend less money in other aspects of your life (for instance, my mom's recently gotten into extreme couponing, and she now pays $50/month on groceries for two people. I spent more than that on groceries when I was in college and "groceries" meant "ramen".)

Now, right at this moment, I am not saying that used games shouldn't exist. I'm saying that you saying you buy used games because you have "no choice" is:

1. A lie.

2. Disingenuous.

3. A lie.

You have many, many choices, you are simply choosing the easiest one for you at this moment. Don't pretend otherwise.

Stall:
The problem with believing that used games are a good way for gamers to test new IPs is that publishers require the sales of the new IP to judge if a sequel is worth it. If everyone buys a new IP used, then it simply isn't going to get a sequel because the publisher doesn't consider it worthwhile since the first game just didn't sell. If someone made a great new IP, but most people bought it used because they are afraid of that fact, then there wouldn't be a chance to BUY a sequel because a sequel wouldn't happen.

EDIT: Also, why do people expect companies to trust them? Do you know the first rule of fucking business? It's that you NEVER trust your customer. When you give a customer trust, even just a little bit, then they will find ways to exploit that trust and fuck you over because of it. Not trusting your customer is good business. It isn't being a dick or being rude. Stop being entitled and expect publishers to trust you, because it isn't going to happen.

I hate the entitlement of so many gamers nowadays.

never trust your customers, i work in fast food and we require people who walk in with a problem to show is their receipt and we'll help them, yet almost half the people i give the recites to don't take them.

also we once had a coupon special and we had to start making sure we rips the coupon as soon as they gave it to us because we had instances of people taking their coupons back when he turned our back to make their order, and reusing them the next day. before we wold have a stack of five or six coupons since everybody and his bother was coming in with them, and they even took the stack a few times and came back with tree of four of them. never trust the consumer.

As a PC gamer I know where it leads when the publishers treat you like shit. Oh, it starts out harmless enough but before you know it you're trying to play your game, only you cannot because Steam fucked up a CD key with TAGES or the secuROM client can't connect or StarForce forgot to make a 64bit version of their DRM or printed the wrong key in the cover or Steams offline function craps out again. That all started with a simple cd check. That hurt nobody, right? So don't just accept this crap like it's a fair deal.

Yes, it's funny how people seem to ignore the example that is right in front of them. Somehow they believe that what publishers did to the PC via DRM can't possibly happen to consoles even though it's happening right under their noses. Online passes are really just activation keys that will lead to the end of the used market when they take the next logical step and completely lock down games until you input an activation key.

Point 1: Valid, but not really what is concerning companies. I guess I speak for myself when I say that the $5 difference in price is never the selling point for used games for me. I'd rather pay the extra $5 and be sure I got an unabused copy. The same applies to trying new titles. $5 off isn't going to get me to try the new risky game. I wait at least a year for 20 - 30 off. Yeah, it's true that the used market has got me waiting with baited breath for the new releases later, but they're after the quick turnarounds, not the more general used market. Besides, if $5 is really going to break your budget, perhaps you should be in the gaming world in the first place.

Point 2: only recently valid. Those of us resistant to the whole digital thing have pointed out the possiblity off massive server outages to general dismissal. We only recently have a real life example of it being a real issue.

Point 3: not related as it's a technical issue. They could easially embed the code in the game and link the code to your account the way it does now without the manual entering. That is more a courtasy to show that yes, this code has yet to be redeemed.

Additional point: the type of gamer inclined to trade in the game in two weeks may not even redeem the pass. I've received day one DLC in used games that could still be claimed, so I imagine there's going to be a few unclaimed online passes in the used section, game depending.

I've always said the best thing for publishers to do is to try and make a deal with gamestop for used games, controling when games may be offered used and a cut of the price. It could be tiered by age, as in, 50% percent of the profit for a game less than 6 months ond, yet only 5% of the profit on soething more than 3 years old. Sadly, Gamestop has no reason to bargin. These things have yet to sut into their sales, and probably even help the more profitable used sales as we wait unti the savings catch up to the extra costs. With games going the digital route, their days as a software seller are numbered anyway, with the used market being their only use, and even that's limited.

Well then what's the alternative, let Gamestop pocket 100% of used game sales and make the gaming industry that much less lucrative, in turn cutting down on the number of companies with the cash and will to actually release tangible game copies?

Yeah, flow-on effects can be used to prove anything, and the argument is not one-sided, hell my take on it here is dramatically abridged and misses several of the relevant points I've forgotten.

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