No Right Answer: Superman Red Son vs. Kingdom Come

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Superman Red Son vs. Kingdom Come

Learn the answer to last week's debate between Ozai and Goku for worst father ever. And then stay on for some deep debate on the What If comic that most deserves the movie treatment. Is it Superman: Red Son, the Russian elseworld, or Kingdom Come, the epic possible future of the DC universe?

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Holy shit, Kratos Kim is awesome.

I agree with Red Son. Just the concept alone is badass.

Honestly you both lose since there is no way that DC will make those two comics into a film ever and since it's not Batman (well he is in it) it would be bad given to the track record from DC movies.

I suppose if they do make and will turn out good, I would go with Superman Red Son due to there are too many superheroes in Kingdom Come (which the fan boys will complain to no end with the characters casting).

I'd kinda like to see a Superman red son movie if they shot it like the X-men first class.

Not really sure about a Kingdom come movie, but i've never read it. And Im sure i'll get quoted for this about how I should, I dont care, i will if i want to, telling me to is only going to make me hate it.

Much Rather see a Kingdom Come movie than Red Son, If only for the fact that I'd rather see a movie about Super heroes in general than Superman in particular. But the thing is we'd need to have a Captain Marvel movie first to re-establish that character in the public consciousness. And I don't know if that's going to happen given all the trademark issues between DC and Marvel.

But I totally agree that Goku is a worse father than Ozai if only for the fact that Goku is retarded.

Come on guys, everyone knows the best "What If" is the one where Aunt May gains the Power Cosmic and becomes a Herald of Galactus.....I shit you not.

Second best is the "What If" of Professor X dead from the Legacy Virus and all the X-peoples get in an uproar and then Cable's evil twin KILLS WOLVERINE BY THROWING HIM INTO SPACE! And it sticks, Wolvie is dead.

Both wrong

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Those results were bullshit. Goku only one because of his popularity. Ozai is a horrible parent when he hates his children and even when he loves them. There is nothing he has done for them that was even remotely positive. Goku might be stupid, but even he occasionally did things for the benefit of his children.

I do agree with this episode though. Commie Superman is a story I'd like to hear.

I do agree that both stories should be adapted...into animated films. I for one cannot see either story adapted to live-action form. For one, a Communist Superman would be a hard-sell for the average movie-goer, unless you dumb down the story to yet another Superman vs Luthor movie, and pull a bullshit "he switches sides to America/the world" ending. And two, we still don't have a Justice League movie. What makes a Kingdom Come film any more possible?

From what I understand, Kingdom Come (prior to the DC reboot) was supposed to be canon, not a what-if.
Edit: OT But as a movie it doesn't work very well. The story-arc and framing device are classic and would not translate to either animation or big-screen. It is from the perspective of a non-super powered religious figure who is taken by the Spectre and shown events surrounding what seems to be superhero/villain armageddon. The perspective is what gives the story meaning and in a movie sense it would be totally lost.
Red Son would probably make the better animated movie/live-action film. But as it goes, I still feel the Kingdom Come story to be the more hard hitting of the two.

Interesting one, since I think those are two of the best superman stories out there.

But yeah, the logistic of doing Kingdom Come is already pretty difficult... even in the comic itself, few of the characters have important role... big names like Flash, Green Lantern and so forth are basically setting pieces, because if everybody had their story arc, the story would be ten time has big as it already is.

But in the comic, they don't really need to do much more... the comic book fan know who those people are and he gets a mini-nerdgasm everytime he sees the new costume design and new purpose of one of his old favorite... even if his old favorite barely has 2 lines to say in the 200+ page epic.

So introducing literally 50 or so characters to then just have them stand around and do nothing... except be part of the big mega-brawl at the end would probably confuse the hell out of people.

Red Son is a much more approachable story/movie on its own, as it makes do with the 'superflous' character and focus on a cast of 6 to 7 'well known' comic book character/archetype.

That's not to say Red Son is a better book or would even be a better movie... but from a marketing point of view, it's just a better idea.

I'm liking the series so far guys but why on earth would you show off your copy of Final Fantasy X-II?

Has the absence of the Jones Soda been addressed yet? I liked the different "theme" flavors.
Also, pretty good quote of the week.

Im sorry, even in this day and age where the Soviet Union has been defeated for over 20 years, there is no way Hollywood would make a communist Superman movie. Not going to happen, though it is doable.

Kingdom Come, while logistically impossible with its huge cast, would be a badass movie. I would even go so far as to say that if DC didnt change continuity every 5 seconds I could accept that as a actual future DC story instead of an alternate dimension story.

That being said, since those movies are undoable lets focus on a future DC story that is doable, has a story that alot of people know, and could even begin a new franchise. Batman Beyond. Think about it, after Bale's run is done and a few years go by people will want something new, fresh. This fits perfectly. The story has all the ingredients of a Batman movie, tragedy(although Terry only lost his dad and he and his dad wherent the closest to begin with), origin, action. You can still go for a realistic style like the Bale movies, but since its the future you can bring in all kinds of crazy tech. The Batsuit and old Bruce will also help speed up the whole, "hero trains and gathers resources" part the superhero movies tend to have since . Terry originally stole the suit and went out, so we can get right into Bat-action quickly. Then we can dial it back it bit and have Old Bruce teach him a bit then have a big climatic showdown.

Now tell me thats not only doable, but awesome.

The_root_of_all_evil:
Both wrong

Oh man, I love that comic, especially since John Cleese co-wrote it. Top stuff.

As for the argument, Red Son is an amazing story by a mile, better then Kingdom Come in my opinion.

That said, if DC wants to do a period superhero movie, make The New Frontier. It's probably the best comic i've read, and it does a fairly good job of explaining and discovering a wealth of new characters. They did an animated movie of it, and that was great too. Truly, truly awesome stuff, I highly recommend it.

I know it's photoshop'd but that Avengers poster is one of the coolest things I've sseen in a long time.

3:54 0_0 I don't know where Dan gets his fanart, but job well done.

Kinda a dick move with that fakeout Haaa!

And I still think the judge is a dick for not only lumping in ATLA with Anime, but denouncing all anime as bad, tosser.

The_root_of_all_evil:
Both wrong

wait was that a real thing?! awsome...

rancher of monsters:
Those results were bullshit. Goku only one because of his popularity. Ozai is a horrible parent when he hates his children and even when he loves them. There is nothing he has done for them that was even remotely positive. Goku might be stupid, but even he occasionally did things for the benefit of his children.

well ozai kind of loves azula but i must agree goku is stupid but not a bad father...

also the only elseworld movie we need is:
image

amaranth_dru:
From what I understand, Kingdom Come (prior to the DC reboot) was supposed to be canon, not a what-if.

Like most all DC shenanigans, KC is given its own 'universe' within the multiverse, so that writers could incorporate it into the official continuity anytime they wish. But it's a else-worlds title (similar to what-if stories)

I would agree with JBird that both stories should be animated instead of live action. I don't know Red Son that well, but Kingdom Come can't be done on a realistic budget without severely limiting the scope.

Kingdom Come was one (if not first) DC comic series i ever read. I had basic knowledge of Superman, Batman, Wonder Wonder and the other big characters, but I had never heard of Captain Marvel and didn't know much about the other characters either. I spent a lot of the time looking at the back of the collected series at the character portraits, trying to connect what i was reading to what i saw.

It was definitely a crash course into the DC universe.

Well, since we all know that Elseworld's Superman: Speeding Bullets is the best, there really is no right answer (given our choices of Red Son or Kingdom Come).

But the best Superman story every told is a tie between Action Comics #775 and the Superman/Gen13 miniseries (this is certainly the best SuperGIRL story ever told, and the best non-Adam Warren Gen13).

Having watched the new Two and a Half Men(hey, it's not brilliant but I enjoy it) I just realised how much the guy on the left looks like Ashton Kutcher.

Also, Superman is stupid. Why yes, I did base that entirely off of Smallville.

...no, I don't actually have anything smart to contribute.

I'd see a "Kingdom Come" movie, and I think the characters are iconic enough for it to work and for people to identify with them. I would however NOT watch a "Red Son" movie as I am strongly anti-communist, even if I do have some left wing beliefs.

So like, completely off topic, but did you guys notice that they had all the twilight books just sitting there, on the bottom shelf?

rancher of monsters:
Those results were bullshit. Goku only one because of his popularity. Ozai is a horrible parent when he hates his children and even when he loves them. There is nothing he has done for them that was even remotely positive. Goku might be stupid, but even he occasionally did things for the benefit of his children.

I gotta disagree man, if I told you that both were bad parents which would surprise you more? The sociopath who's idea to unite the world is by burning it or the altruistic one who literally pulls the martyr card like clock work. Also awesome name dude, very few people I know played Monster Rancher (sorry if I'm somehow way off on guessing the meaning)

On topic I would love to see Kingdom come but as live action impossible, animated yeah it would work and be cool. Red Son can be done live action but I imagine the biggest flaw is that only people who know of the "what if" wouldn't be horribly confused. My cousin loves super hero movies but if I told him they were making a superman where he was communist he would just go "....the F--K?!?!".

My rule is pretty simple: no superman unless you're going to go full-on camp. His powers are too retarded to work any other way. If he's gotta be in it, use him as little as possible.

So I gotta go with Kingdom Come, if only because it sounds like there's less Superman in it than Red Son.

You do have a point that a Kingdom Come movie would require set up for everyone involved, but Red Son is NOT the way to set up Superman. You want something that actually encapsulates what the character is to set him up for Kingdom Come, a what if where Supes is a communist is interesting, but it doesn't accomplish the character set up.

Also it will never happen because DC will crumble under the media backlash if someone even says communist and superman in the same sentence.

N_of_the_dead:

rancher of monsters:
Those results were bullshit. Goku only one because of his popularity. Ozai is a horrible parent when he hates his children and even when he loves them. There is nothing he has done for them that was even remotely positive. Goku might be stupid, but even he occasionally did things for the benefit of his children.

I gotta disagree man, if I told you that both were bad parents which would surprise you more? The sociopath who's idea to unite the world is by burning it or the altruistic one who literally pulls the martyr card like clock work. Also awesome name dude, very few people I know played Monster Rancher (sorry if I'm somehow way off on guessing the meaning)

On topic I would love to see Kingdom come but as live action impossible, animated yeah it would work and be cool. Red Son can be done live action but I imagine the biggest flaw is that only people who know of the "what if" wouldn't be horribly confused. My cousin loves super hero movies but if I told him they were making a superman where he was communist he would just go "....the F--K?!?!".

You're right about my name, Monster Rancher was easily one of my favorite games growing up. I know that we expect better of Goku, but I still don't think that makes him the worse father. At the end of the day you just have to look at the results. Does Goku make bad decisions? Yes, but he's also done things for the benefit of his children and they all grow up to be good people. Ozai's only good child only became so when he stopped trying to live up to his father's will. The one who didn't suffered a massive mental breakdown.

tl;dr Abandoned child > Crazy child.

I think they'd both be terrible movies, elseworlds that would make money hand over fist?

Batman Red bloodstorm/red Rain/Crimson Mist.

Batman as a vampire. It would make so much money.

As much as I love both Kingdom Come and Red Son, I don't think the average consumer is going to be intrigued by either. Also, they might be able to do Red Son live action but Kingdom is going to be ridiculously expensive if it's live. I otherwise totally agree that Red Son must be made, less for Superman as a communist, more for Russian Batman -- that was every kind of win.

Both of those "What If's" have a movie-prospect measured in zeroes. For one, Red Son features Superman, an ostensibly TRUTH, JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY-esque character, as a communist meaning that in no way would this make any money in the states. Kingdom Come features about seven billion characters and side-plots and is simply too long to be made without turning it into an 12-hour trilogy.

Kyle mentioned X-men: First Class for its cold-war espionage setting and aesthetics, so I propose this: a movie-adaptation of JSA: The Liberty Files. For one, it features a solid trio of characters to work with, numerous shout-outs to obscure characters and an epic period-piece story-line set in WWII (can't go wrong with those Germans, can ya?).

Ha ha, Chris is a horribly sore loser!

OT, I disagree. Americans are finnicky and they wouldn't like a story like that. It worked for comics because there are a bunch of comics that come out every year so comics like that will find their audience, but movies are huge affairs and superhero movies particularly need to throw the ball out of the park every single time. Kingdom Come is, if nothing else, a more classic story.

Kyle is right- you couldn't make a Kingdom Come movie without establishing everyone, but I'd go a step further- I'd say a Kingdom Come movie would have to be a sequel to a Justice League movie. It'd be weird to establish them all at their current ages then BAM suddenly they're all old and hanging out, feels like a huge gap in the story.

Besides, you'd have to wait until Dark Knight Rises comes out and make an unrelated Batman movie, Nolan has pretty much sealed his Batman off from any team-up shenanigans. My suggestion would be a CG Animated Series Timmverse batch of movies. You know what, forget about Kingdom Come, I want a damn Batman TAS CG movie!

Neither of them really would make that great a film. You're best sticking to the good semi-canonical stuff, cherry pick the best elements from Allstar Superman, Birthright, Man of Steel, Superman for all Seasons and heck even the relatively new Earth One. Once you had a decent couple of films you could wrap it all up with a lot of elements from Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow.

The one Elsword that could work? Secret Identity. It's the story of a young man growing up in Kansas whose parents, the Kents, name him Clark because of the Superman comics. He grows up being constantly teased and given Superman stuff as presents. Eventually one day he comes in contact with an alien energy source that gives him Superman's superpowers (it's implied his reading of the comics subconciously shaped his powers to be that way). He decides to save people in a Superman costume because no one would ever believe it. He deals with the military hunting him, the emergence of other super beings and his own personal life.

It's so deliciously meta and the whole thing plays on the fact everyone in the audience knows who Superman is and twists it.

I'd say neither myself. I'm just not sure the casual audience would accept such drastic AUs. They can take subtile ones that leave the basic tone of the character intact, but those are some drastic choices.

If I had to pick, I'd say Kingdom Come. Red son came late in the elseworld game and never really resonated with me. It was just another "superman is raised by someone else" story to add to the Waynes, the Ahmish (never becoming Superman) a blacksmith in midevil england, Drakseid, wolves, and even Kryton from a doomed Earth, and tht's just what I remember. It's better than most, but I never saw the mass appeal.

Kingdom Come is more epic, and the challenges aren't impossible to overcome. The BBC fit the thing into a 3 hour radio drama, so a movie could be made to fit the time with some creative editing. Most of the important cast is iconic and requires no real knowledge of backstory. Most of the rest are placeholders (you need to know nothing of Green Lantern, Flash, Captain Comet, Deadman or Martian Manhunter to follow things) easially understandable (the Spectre is pretty self explainatory) or could be squeezed in (Captian Marvel).

The challenge to both is content. Touching on comunism right no is a minefield regardless of what side he'd come out on in a movie draft, while Kingdom Come is full of overt religous symbolism, which again, doesn't go over well.

Not that I wouldn't love to see Kingdom Come done as one of their animated movies, or rather several. Minimum 2. More realistically 4 (one for each issue of ther original series.)

Therumancer:
I'd see a "Kingdom Come" movie, and I think the characters are iconic enough for it to work and for people to identify with them. I would however NOT watch a "Red Son" movie as I am strongly anti-communist, even if I do have some left wing beliefs.

I agree with most that Kingdom Come can be done(and should be done) as an animated movie. DC's animated features are better than their live action films as of late, Bat-franchise excluded of course. The only thing is they need to not pussy out and try and cram it into a 90 minute garbage heap. The "Crisis on Two Worlds" feature proved they can do a big cast picture with great action and depth they just need to really buckle down on it.

As far as "Red Son" goes I said Hollywood wouldnt make it not out of any animosity towards communism itself but because for one most people would see it as a insult to see Superman as un-American(even though techniqually he is an Alien but I digress), and for two it would never pull in enough revenue to make up for even 25% of what it would cost to make, even with DVD sales.

Actual pure communism in its truest form, not the in name only form that China has, is not a bad thing. Ideally its supposed to be everyone in the collective working and sharing for the benefit of all the people. However in practice it hasnt gone over very well. The reason is simply the old adage "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" or to quote Dr. McCoy from Star Trek "If you give anyone that much power they cant help playing God" Communist states in the 20th usually centered around one figure in government, and once they got that power and realized what they could do with that power...Well you can fill in the blanks. Now if you could combine pure communism with the system of Checks and Balances the US has, I think it could work.

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