Jimquisition: Used Games Have A Right To Exist

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cpt blackamar:
I like how jim has actually turned from making rather useless points to actually ones of real value. The guys at extra credits are still doing it better, but it's good to have someone else actually chipping in things of worth

Not if you watched the one episode on cutscenes
they couldnt have missed the point worse if they had aimed in the opposite direction

Littaly:
I hate them too, but a company is a company, you can't expect them to sit and do nothing when they're losing money.

It does no one any good when the policies are beginning to choke consumers with unnecessary BS. As for the point on profit. Not sure.

EA recently took out a sizable loan to help cover its expenditures in acquiring Popcap in its bid to take a larger share of the casual market. I don't think a loan would have been taken out if their economic analysts hadn't forecasted a reasonable profit turnover.

Activision turned over double profit (1.3 billion in revenue) last year, so I'm pretty sure the big publishers are doing just fine.

Jim, thanks for, making "The Live by Capitalism, Die by Capitalism" argument. It's one you never see brought up, at least clearly enough. If the industry wants to rake in the profits through the system, then fuck them saying I can't sell my stuff.

It's Capitalism bitches!

Thank you Jim, thank you for making this video. It's ridiculous how many people buy into the notion that used games are evil. Hopefully your video will change the opinions of the majority who are unable to think for themselves. And bravo on your capitalist argument; in my opinion, that statement about the positives and negatives of capitalism won the used games argument, and any argument from the other side cannot compete with that.

Keep up the good work.

Still Life:

Littaly:
I hate them too, but a company is a company, you can't expect them to sit and do nothing when they're losing money.

It does no one any good when the policies are beginning to choke consumers with unnecessary BS. As for the point on profit. Not sure.

EA recently took out a sizable loan to help cover its expenditures in acquiring Popcap in its bid to take a larger share of the casual market. I don't think a loan would have been taken out if their economic analysts hadn't forecasted a reasonable profit turnover.

Activision turned over double profit (1.3 billion in revenue) last year, so I'm pretty sure the big publishers are doing just fine.

The funny thing with that is the fact they didn't even need to take out the loan. They had the money but didn't want to use it. Therefor, Popcap is essentially paying itself in order to exist.

shrekfan246:
Snip.

Soviet Heavy:
Snip.

Thanks for the info. Too bad I'm on Xbox. Blasted!

You make a point, and I agree that used game sales aren't quite as bad as Developers want to make them out to be, they're not exactly great for the Developers, but they're not that bad. It seems to me that this is coming down to the Developers looking for someone to blame for bad game sales. They want a scapegoat to blame so they can create some unfair rules in their favor in 'self defense'. Look at the company's who're complaining the most and the loudest about used games sales etc, and then look at who's running them. Kotick in particular is grating on my nerves, and needs to get over himself, in my opinion.

alinos:
I;m only against Used games, When they are sold through the same retail store that sells the real thing.

If you want to buy used games it should be through craigslist,Ebay, or a cashconverters(not sure of the american equivilant(or if there is one))

The downside to your argument is that it's also not uncommon for games to be traded in to purchase new games. Only selling them on your own won't guarantee you the money you need to buy a game and not in time for you to purchase it with your friends. I am glad Gamestop no longer has an outlet for just used games. The credit could be used for either store, but it was more of a hassle to trade them in at one store, the go to the other to buy a game. Also, having gamestop sell used games simply makes access to them easier for everyone. The more places games are available the easier it as a consumer to find them.

Still Life:

What I would really like to see in terms of distribution models, is one where developers launch their titles from their own server network. I believe Frictional did this with Amnesia, by having the game downloadable from their main site. It was also on Steam, but I think it highlights quite a bit more flexibility than traditional publishing models.

This model is fine, but limiting distribution to only the developers website is a sure fire way to not let your game reach a lot of people and not make a lot of money. There was a little jewel of a game released this way that I'm quite sure almost no one has heard of, it's called Gemini Rue. A great game, but you can only guy it through the dev companies website. They would lose a percentage through Steam, but would more than likely have made so much more money off of it.

This reminds me a bit of the old studio system in Hollywood early in the last century. Also, filmstudios and labels don't get to complain about movies and music being resold, why the fuck should game studios?

Catchy Slogan:

shrekfan246:
Snip.

Soviet Heavy:
Snip.

Thanks for the info. Too bad I'm on Xbox. Blasted!

Well, you've got Halo and Gears of War, two games I'd love to own but can't. So I'm blasted too.

Well banning used games would be a great blow to me, robbing me of an opportunity to play many titles. I buy most of my console games used, since they're (a lot) cheaper, even with delivery costs and occasional unexpected postage rip-off. Also if I buy a new game here, and it turns out to be faulty (or shitty) I can't return it, so it's $100 down the drain. I can't trade it in, cause there are no retail shops that accept/sell used games. Not to mention that some titles never actually see the light of day here. My only option is to buy used games from sites like game.co.uk or ebay (in this case with the added benefit of large delivery costs). So fuck you publishers. I'll gladly "rip you off" until I find desirable alternative.

Soviet Heavy:

Catchy Slogan:

shrekfan246:
Snip.

Soviet Heavy:
Snip.

Thanks for the info. Too bad I'm on Xbox. Blasted!

Well, you've got Halo and Gears of War, two games I'd love to own but can't. So I'm blasted too.

Well, if you have a good enough PC you can get Halo 1&2 on PC and Gears Of War on PC aswell.
(Halo 2 was my favourite of the Halo series.)

Soviet Heavy:

Catchy Slogan:

shrekfan246:
Snip.

Soviet Heavy:
Snip.

Thanks for the info. Too bad I'm on Xbox. Blasted!

Well, you've got Halo and Gears of War, two games I'd love to own but can't. So I'm blasted too.

Funnily enough, those two series are the entire reason I own a 360 in addition to my PS3. Just bought Gears 3 yesterday, still haven't played it though because I bought Metal Gear Solid 4 along with it and the cut-scenes alone in that game will probably take me a week to finish.

Oh, and I can bring this back to OT with that post as well: The only way I could even find Metal Gear Solid 4 was pre-owned. So, yeah. There's that. Without used games, I never would've been able to find a copy of that game (because it would have gone out of print, it's been three years since it was released) because at the time that it was released, I was not into stealth games and had no prior knowledge of the series at all.

Good point about capitalism, it really is that simple. EA are bitching and whining that the capitalist system doesn't flow compeltely around them.

Also good point about the one pre owned = one brand new sale, it is as simple as that for a game to become pre owned someone has to have bought it at some point.

Want us to buy games new, make them so good we want them on launch day and don't charge so bloody much that we have to work 6 and a half hours to afford a single videogame (its an approximation working on the assumption that a game costs 40 new and that the person buying has a 6 an hour job)

Also notice how the complaints nearly always come from the greedy bloody publishers who don't actually MAKE videogames but just like to control the people who do with big wads of cash. The only leeches and parasites in the industry are greedy publishers who make more money than the people with the real talent.

chstens:
This reminds me a bit of the old studio system in Hollywood early in the last century. Also, filmstudios and labels don't get to complain about movies and music being resold, why the fuck should game studios?

Especially when films cost WAY more to make, and both the tickets and DVD's sell for WAY LESS than games.

So in essence your argument is:

Waaaaah!!! Piracy is worse than trade-ins therefore trade-ins aren't hurting the industry at all!
Waaaaah!!! EA is a worse company than Gamestop (which they aren't, not by a long shot, at least EA actually funds games and many great games at that.), therefore all of Gamestop's bullshit nickle-and-dimeing and intentional working around the companies that actually makes the games are perfectly acceptable!
Waaaaah!!! I don't want the corporate fat cats at EA making money! I'd much rather give my money to the corporate fat cats at Gamestop!
Waaaaah!!! Murder is a worse crime than assault! Therefore punching random people on the street in the face isn't a problem at all!

Class act there Jim.

But alas, you're wrong.

You know who is really hurt by used games? All those smaller titles you talked about two weeks ago. They're the ones that can't afford great marketing, and thus can't push many unit at launch, but because of used sales, slow sales over time quickly regress to no new sales at all, because the games are being traded in is very high compared to the rate at which the game is being bought.

I felt inspired enough by the video to write the following: "Thank God for GoG"

Reasonable argumentation, for the most part.

I'm not sold on the "buying space on a server" part, though. The disc is a product for sure (that can be infinitely resold, traded, etc.), but the online servers publishers maintain could be considered a service.
Services are a different from products and can be non-transfereable. Most professional software licenses are also tied to on company and cannot be resold.

Also consider that such services don't remain indefinitely. If a publisher is being mean, a game server can be shut down anytime they like and none of their customers will have a leg to stand on (beyond boycotting all their games in the future).

I'll wrap up it up by saying I don't really hate resale shops like Gamestop, but rather I look down on gamers who let themselves get ripped off by a middleman, because they cannot or dare not get in contact with other gamers to trade with directly in this digital day and age.

Baresark:

This model is fine, but limiting distribution to only the developers website is a sure fire way to not let your game reach a lot of people and not make a lot of money.

I'm not sold.

More indie developers are moving away from traditional publishing models, so this would indicate a shift. Also, to assume that devs only move into the business to make 'a lot of money' is problematic. Last I checked, most games developers want to make games because it was a 'passion', not an EA-style-money-maker.

bringer of illumination:
So in essence your argument is:

Waaaaah!!! Piracy is worse than trade-ins therefore trade-ins aren't hurting the industry at all!
Waaaaah!!! EA is a worse company than Gamestop (which they aren't, not by a long shot, at least EA actually funds games and many great games at that.), therefore all of Gamestop's bullshit nickle-and-dimeing and intentional working around the companies that actually makes the games are perfectly acceptable!
Waaaaah!!! I don't want the corporate fat cats at EA making money! I'd much rather give my money to the corporate fat cats at Gamestop!
Waaaaah!!! Murder is a worse crime than assault! Therefore punching random people on the street in the face isn't a problem at all!

Class act there Jim.

But alas, you're wrong.

You know who is really hurt by used games? All those smaller titles you talked about two weeks ago. They're the ones that can't afford great marketing, and thus can't push many unit at launch, but because of used sales, slow sales over time quickly regress to no new sales at all, because the games are being traded in is very high compared to the rate at which the game is being bought.

Fantastic. Could not have said it better myself

I still cant believe he wants to whine for 3 full episodes with these flawed arguments.

ImSkeletor:
Thank you Jim for speaking the truth. It ticks me off that people say that I am as bad as people who PIRATE just because I LEGALLY sell my games and buy used games. Am I a bad person if I freaking sell my car to someone after I buy it?

Stop using the car analogy, it's the only one I ever see and, to be frank, I'm sick of it. Get creative for once, people!

OT: I could not agree more. There is the issue of publishers losing out on potential sales, but that isn't an actual issue. From what I see, publishers are dicks to developers and are one of the leading causes of terrible games (that are, rather ironically, sold back to retailers). Once the developers are paid for their work I couldn't care less how much publishers make.

The publishers that make a fucking racket about used games often have 10 games on the go anyway, so they can't be hurting them that much.

This episode really only warrants one response:

A-fucking-men!

And for those who say that he was wrong to say that EA is worse than GameStop, here's the way I see it: Yes, both companies are businesses out to make as much money as they can. The difference is, GameStop actually respects their customers, because for every "evil tactic" they implement, they give something back to the customer.

Also, being a retail store, customers have the option to take their business elsewhere. But if a game from a developer you respect makes a game you want to play, and then publishes it through EA. Well, you don't have many legal options, do you?

I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million times more. WAIT FOR EFFING SALES. It isn't hard. Every retailer puts out an ad in local papers at least once a week if not more. The print ads are easily found online and every single week there is a handful of games on sale.

This isn't even including Steam.

For instance Best Buy, three weeks after release already has Dead Island and Space Marine $10 off. Which is cheaper than you'd find a used copy at GameStop. Even cheaper than you'd find a PC copy anywhere else.

Arguing for used game sales because of pricing is like arguing that you're a lazy jackass who can't be bothered to look for a deal or can't wait for more than two weeks to get a game.

Just like people who blow IP on a champ in LoL on day one, then bitch about how much they hate them. That champ would've been free to try in two weeks, if you had an iota of patience.

Mechanix:
Hopefully your video will change the opinions of the majority who are unable to think for themselves. And bravo on your capitalist argument; in my opinion, that statement about the positives and negatives of capitalism won the used games argument, and any argument from the other side cannot compete with that.

First, the think for yourself argument is beautifully ironic. If you take a second to think about it.

For two, my above point about being an intelligent and good consumer beats the shit out of your argument about capitalism. Who knew being a discerning, patient and intelligent consumer was a good thing?

Clearly not you.

PeePantz:

cpt blackamar:
I like how jim has actually turned from making rather useless points to actually ones of real value. The guys at extra credits are still doing it better, but it's good to have someone else actually chipping in things of worth

No they're not, they just talk fluff and wrap a pretty bow on games being ultra important to society. Jim Sterling does not. He's blunt. This industry needs more Jim Sterlings. While a lot of people, like the EC team, try to justify video games as contemporary pieces of art, once in a while (refreshingly), there are those who just commentate on games without speculation.

The EC guy has an annoying voice too. Or maybe that was a character voice for the video or something but it didn't appeal to me. And not to be a prick, but having a certain voice for video or radio IS important.

Frostbite3789:
I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million times more. WAIT FOR EFFING SALES. It isn't hard. Every retailer puts out an ad in local papers at least once a week if not more. The print ads are easily found online and every single week there is a handful of games on sale.

This isn't even including Steam.

For instance Best Buy, three weeks after release already has Dead Island and Space Marine $10 off. Which is cheaper than you'd find a used copy at GameStop. Even cheaper than you'd find a PC copy anywhere else.

Arguing for used game sales because of pricing is like arguing that you're a lazy jackass who can't be bothered to look for a deal or can't wait for more than two weeks to get a game.

I think the point of the video is that people have multiple avenues to explore, because it's their right. Some people wait for sales, some buy used games. To each their own.

Personally I tend to wait for sales too but I pick up used game when I trade stuff in. Usually trading stuff in to independent retailers btw not gamestop or eb games.

Littaly:
I'll confess that I don't have any sources to back this statement up, so someone, please correct me if I'm wrong. But when you ask "aren't they making enough money already?" you make it sound like most publishers are greedy bastards sitting on piles of money, trying to suck you dry every chance they get. But the last thing I heard was that the only publisher who was turning a profit was Activision (and that was before they pulled the plug on Guitar Hero). I'm not saying their ways of making gamers pay more for their games aren't assy, I hate them too, but a company is a company, you can't expect them to sit and do nothing when they're losing money.

I don't mean to sound harsh but you may want to get sources if you do try and say things like that.

EA made nearly $221 million PROFIT, thats profit not revenue. The revenue was close to $1 billion. That was just the June 2011 quarter, NOT the whole year. So we'll quadruple that to $884 million which will probably work out more so nearly a $1 billion PROFIT for the whole year on a $4 billion revenue.

The company now expects full year revenue to reach $3.825b - $4.025b.

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/87355/ea-profits-221m-in-the-june-2011-quarter-on-999m-in-revenue/

Not to mention Activision also looking at numbers similar.

The only companies making a loss are those that publish shite that doesn't sell. If a company can find a corner of the market and latch onto it then they are in the money.

People that take pity on companies like Activision and EA and swallow the bollocks that used games are hurting their precious profits need a clout round the ear.

Akalabeth:
Snip

That's fine and dandy, but at the cost of having no patience, I'm fine with them being charged for online pass and the ilk.

They have multiple avenues as you said. They have the avenue to have patience. Or to save $5 immediately and have to shell out more for extras.

They have options, they can't bitch. It's not like they're being forced to buy used. If they're that strapped for cash, but they can't wait for a sale, I think I know one reason why they're strapped for cash in the first place.

Baresark:

The downside to your argument is that it's also not uncommon for games to be traded in to purchase new games. Only selling them on your own won't guarantee you the money you need to buy a game and not in time for you to purchase it with your friends. I am glad Gamestop no longer has an outlet for just used games. The credit could be used for either store, but it was more of a hassle to trade them in at one store, the go to the other to buy a game. Also, having gamestop sell used games simply makes access to them easier for everyone. The more places games are available the easier it as a consumer to find them.

Of course it's a downside that's kinda the whole point.

And again. Your buying a used game, you have no need to get it on day 2, or with your friend's your buying it because logically you can't afford the new copy.

Which is again why i kinda suggested the alternative last week that their should be a grace period(which i mentioned in last weeks thread) of like a month. Where only new copies can be sold by retail outlets within a month of release.

This way you avoid the whole quick finish it in 24 hours for maximum moolah thing that Gamestop and the like promote. Sure you can still sell it 24 hours after your done(hell you could probably put an Ebay ad on the second you buy the game and finish it in time to mail it) But again the point is to give the developers a shot. And i'm not talking about EA here they make their money no matter what. But their are smaller developers that used games can hurt especially when the game can boomerang from the store as one used copy is traded back in over and over again.

I know people who buy exclusively in used games and not because they can't afford the real thing's. hell a mate put down a pre-order for skyrim's collectors edition and walked out with 2 used games 10 dollars cheaper than if both were bought new(-$5 each). now knowing him that statue will sit in a cupboard anyway. But he cannot justify buying a insanely overpriced collectors edition yet by solely used games elsewhere. And the fact is that if the used copies weren't there he would have bought the new copies anyways.

Used Games shouldn't be convenient, they should offer the ability for saving's but require a little more effort to get than a new game. Currently they don't. most of the time you'll find them on the shelf within 24-48 hours of release.

If you can't afford to pay full price at release you don't deserve the game at release it's as simple as that. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to get it because you don't have the money. But there should be drawbacks to buying used currently they don't exist. And i bet there are people today buying skyrim at used prices because it's 5 dollars cheaper. Even though it'll probably be 15 dollars cheaper in the lead up to Christmas.

Frostbite3789:

Akalabeth:
Snip

That's fine and dandy, but at the cost of having no patience, I'm fine with them being charged for online pass and the ilk.

They have multiple avenues as you said. They have the avenue to have patience. Or to save $5 immediately and have to shell out more for extras.

They have options, they can't bitch. It's not like they're being forced to buy used. If they're that strapped for cash, but they can't wait for a sale, I think I know one reason why they're strapped for cash in the first place.

So people who wait a year to play a game so they can buy it used for $20 have no patience?

Fact is, used games constantly drop in price the longer the game has been for sale. New games on the other hand, rarely ever drop below $50 these days no longer how long it's been out. The exception being "Greatest Hits" games or the ilk.

console gamers need to take a long hard look at pc gaming, what companies did to it, how the used game business does not exist and you are pretty much forced to register every game you buy. that is the future of console gaming and its going to come very soon.

Draech:

bringer of illumination:
So in essence your argument is:

Waaaaah!!! Piracy is worse than trade-ins therefore trade-ins aren't hurting the industry at all!
Waaaaah!!! EA is a worse company than Gamestop (which they aren't, not by a long shot, at least EA actually funds games and many great games at that.), therefore all of Gamestop's bullshit nickle-and-dimeing and intentional working around the companies that actually makes the games are perfectly acceptable!
Waaaaah!!! I don't want the corporate fat cats at EA making money! I'd much rather give my money to the corporate fat cats at Gamestop!
Waaaaah!!! Murder is a worse crime than assault! Therefore punching random people on the street in the face isn't a problem at all!

Class act there Jim.

But alas, you're wrong.

You know who is really hurt by used games? All those smaller titles you talked about two weeks ago. They're the ones that can't afford great marketing, and thus can't push many unit at launch, but because of used sales, slow sales over time quickly regress to no new sales at all, because the games are being traded in is very high compared to the rate at which the game is being bought.

Fantastic. Could not have said it better myself

I still cant believe he wants to whine for 3 full episodes with these flawed arguments.

Maybe those smaller publishers are are just making bad games? No really, plenty of small games that I have never heard of get plenty of coverage if they are good. I see at least one indie game a month that I go out and buy, and I don't sit hunting on gamesites for this shit.

No but yea it in no way could be that the smaller games are just over priced or bad..... nooooo it's the used sales. It's a bunch of bs and while it doesn't surprise me anymore it blows my mind that you all will take it up the ass to defend these companies. It's called capitalism, as he so aptly pointed out. It doesn't matter if your game is big or small if it's good it will float. torchlight, castle crashers, the entire humble bundle.... i could go on so rather then sitting there and say all his arguments are flawed how about you provide a counter argument, kinda like what I did there to you.

Next we're going to here from the people with their heads up publishers asses, telling us how much we aren't entitled to content, and you don't HAVE to buy the content. Even if it is locked away on your disc. Im talking to you RE5 and Bioshock 2 Fucking criminal.

Lvl 64 Klutz:
Snip

Fact is...you ignored everything I actually said. For one, by the time used games are $20, new games are usually pretty comparable.

I'm not going to rehash my point on retail sales and Steam sales. Find my other posts in this thread.

Draech:

bringer of illumination:
So in essence your argument is:

Waaaaah!!! Piracy is worse than trade-ins therefore trade-ins aren't hurting the industry at all!
Waaaaah!!! EA is a worse company than Gamestop (which they aren't, not by a long shot, at least EA actually funds games and many great games at that.), therefore all of Gamestop's bullshit nickle-and-dimeing and intentional working around the companies that actually makes the games are perfectly acceptable!
Waaaaah!!! I don't want the corporate fat cats at EA making money! I'd much rather give my money to the corporate fat cats at Gamestop!
Waaaaah!!! Murder is a worse crime than assault! Therefore punching random people on the street in the face isn't a problem at all!

Class act there Jim.

But alas, you're wrong.

You know who is really hurt by used games? All those smaller titles you talked about two weeks ago. They're the ones that can't afford great marketing, and thus can't push many unit at launch, but because of used sales, slow sales over time quickly regress to no new sales at all, because the games are being traded in is very high compared to the rate at which the game is being bought.

Fantastic. Could not have said it better myself

I still cant believe he wants to whine for 3 full episodes with these flawed arguments.

I'm sorry, I just find it amusing that you find this mans "arguments" to be "Fantastic" (even though he just uses rethorics and call Jim a baby) yet to condone Jim for his "flawed arguments", Jim pretty much using nothing but rethorics himself.

My amusement put aside, I have to ask you; Do you believe it's right to lose your right to sell something you own? Because all the other "arguments" put aside, this is a rather solid one.

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