Jimquisition: Used Games Have A Right To Exist

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phreakdb:

Crono1973:

1) Irrelevant, Super Mario Galaxy was only an example.

2) True that, I buy new too when the packaging is important to me but it isn't always important to me.

3) This is really a concern for you? As long as you don't steal and you aren't buying it from a thief then that should be good enough for you.

4) You can return an unplayable game to Gamestop too. Even better, you can return a game to Gamestop for any reason in the first 7 days (I think it's 7 days) and get a full refund in the form of a store credit. Try that at Wal Mart. Take back Super Mario Galaxy II, tell them you don't like it and want Black Ops instead.

5) Fair enough but you could also do that by buying the DLC or the sequel on Day one. Happens all the time.

6) Fair enough but this goes back to 5.

Yeah I like PC games more too because of the faster loading times, better graphics and of course, the keyboard and mouse. You can't buy PC games used anymore and that is because those "fatcat" publishers have used DRM to fight the used market and won. They will do the same to the console market if people let them. I would encourage people not to let them.

I just realized something. It struck me like a bolt of lightning.

I was cruising through wal mart the other night, and I noticed that some of the games i saw in the 360/ps3 case for 50-60 bucks, were 30-40 for pc. For the same game. With better graphics and everything.

Maybe, the fact that DRM killed the used PC Games sector, allowed them to make the money they wanted. Now, I'm not saying that the price stuck for every game at that, but as the general rule, that's what it was.

Maybe, the lack of a used game market, as well as the lack of having to give everyone a cut off of the game's sale (console company, gamestop shelving fee, etc.) caused this phenomenon to occur?

I dunno. I think there is something there though.

- Maybe because there are no license fees to pay on PC like there is with the big three.

- Maybe because they sell more copies on consoles which keeps the prices higher (supply and demand).

- Maybe because the DRM has made consumers weary of buying physical copies and many would just prefer to get it on Steam without the securom.

BTW, in my local Wal Mart they have only WoW, Sims 3 and the million expansions and spins offs, Portal 2 and all the cheap jewel case $10 games and it's been that way for weeks. The PC section is neglected while the console games are well stocked and protected behind glass. Seems to me that Wal Mart certainly places more value on console games, probably because they sell better and I'll bet the used market has alot to do with it. After all, if you don't like it you can recover some of your money, especially in the first few weeks after release.

Okay if I buy a brand new book release read the book in 3 days and then sell that book to a used book store I'm a horrible evil person who is bringing about the death of printed books.

If I buy a new toaster and keep it long enough before selling it then I'm not an evil person who is dooming the toaster industry.

So what is this magical cut off date on games? I'm I putting developers and publishers out of business if I sell a game a month later? Six months later? A year later? Do I have to keep the game forever even though the publisher stopped making new copies and has moved on to a sequel of the game?

Ashley Blalock:
Okay if I buy a brand new book release read the book in 3 days and then sell that book to a used book store I'm a horrible evil person who is bringing about the death of printed books.

If I buy a new toaster and keep it long enough before selling it then I'm not an evil person who is dooming the toaster industry.

So what is this magical cut off date on games? I'm I putting developers and publishers out of business if I sell a game a month later? Six months later? A year later? Do I have to keep the game forever even though the publisher stopped making new copies and has moved on to a sequel of the game?

The game industry thinks it's special and many gamers will disregard your examples saying "they aren't the same as games" because those examples are devastating to their argument. It's the internet equivalent of them putting their fingers in their ears, dancing around and singing "can't hear you, can't hear you".

Damn. All these times I was trading in games because they sucked, or because the company did something anti-competitive that was an annoyance to me (Battlefield3 I'm looking at you), I was completely wasting my time; as it wasn't doing them any damage. Looks like I'll have to do my protests through uploading ISO's then.

Well... damn Jim! Right after making a giant comment totally ripping on you... you completely change my opinion about you in every way with these two most recent videos. Not a perfect show, but wow, I'm REALLY liking this!

It seems to me, Jim, that the real problem isn't the used games market has a right to exist, but rather that new games are just so bloody expensive. I don't know why they all cost this much, but it strikes me that with on-disk DLC, they have plenty of reason to lower the price to the lowest they can get away with and have people buy that on-disk DLC for the rest of said game. (think EC did something similar in one of their videos)

Say for instance that the on-disk DLC is composed of map packs, side quests and extra weaponry for single-player such that it add up to... let's say $30. On an ordinary game this would mean that the game would cost a total of $90 on launch day if someone DLs all that stuff. But suppose the game costs 20 or 30 bucks at the store? That would mean that, if you wanted the 60 bucks worth, you could GET the 60 bucks worth, and someone who can't afford all the first day DLC can still play the core game.

Also: 'it's better than piracy' isn't really an empirical argument that used games sales don't hurt the industry. Especially since the industries with 'used' markets that people keep bringing up either cost thousands (cars) or have very little pay for the makers (authors) Just sayin'.

These last 2 have been in my honest opinion the best and most true episodes of the Jimquisition so far. Here's hoping for just as good of a followup next week.

Let's play the devil's advocate one more time. The same capitalist system that publishers use to make their fortunes and used games sales use to give opportunity and lessen investment is also the system publishers are using to protect their capitol earning chances. It all follows. What publishers do to make money is legal, what used games sales do is legal and what publishers do to stop or reduce those used games sales is legal as well.

The only place to look for the culpable is yourselves. If you want to stop publishers from fleecing you STOP PAYING IN TO THEIR ATTEMPTS!!!! Stop buying slight upgrades to team rosters for 60$. Stop buying DLC. Stop buying extra space suits and weapons. And, if you really want to take control back, stop buying games altogether that rob you by cutting content just to sell it back to you as DLC.

ALL THE POWER is in the hands of the player; the person with the wallet. Their are so many great games by great people that you don't have to buy Ubisoft and EA.

Stop complaining and vote with your wallet. That is the way true democracy and capitalism works.

I have no trouble with used sell but I would like to see a %10 levy on it so the same levy can be placed on digital downloads.

Then you focus copyright not on distribution but on distribution based on monetary gain exempting search sites as long as they limit search of key words like file sharing, torrent, torrents IE it will block sites marked for file sharing.

Used games are great. I'm liking the use of final fantasy backing music, jesters of the moon and kujas theme.

My only real problem with used games is that GameStop is now running the entire commercial used games market, and their practices are influencing every other business to keep pace with them rather than compete simply because nobody can compete with them.

I'm thinking back on the time I tried to trade in about 15 games to a pawn shop and they offered me $40 for the lot because they checked GameStop's trade-in prices and that's what GameStop would have given me, in cash, for those games. (store credit would have been a little more but I wasn't selling those games for more games, I was selling for cash)

That's not even getting into what GameStop does in it's own stores, so really the only reasonable used game market is a peer-to-peer one, which is easier thanks to eBay but still lacking when it comes to paying for something and having it the same day. (or avoiding scams)

SatansBestBuddy:
My only real problem with used games is that GameStop is now running the entire commercial used games market, and their practices are influencing every other business to keep pace with them rather than compete simply because nobody can compete with them.

I'm thinking back on the time I tried to trade in about 15 games to a pawn shop and they offered me $40 for the lot because they checked GameStop's trade-in prices and that's what GameStop would have given me, in cash, for those games. (store credit would have been a little more but I wasn't selling those games for more games, I was selling for cash)

That's not even getting into what GameStop does in it's own stores, so really the only reasonable used game market is a peer-to-peer one, which is easier thanks to eBay but still lacking when it comes to paying for something and having it the same day. (or avoiding scams)

Translation:

"I am upset that Gamestop has been so successful that other shops use Gamestops pricing schemes to determine how much they will give for and sell a game for".

Maybe you should be mad at the other shops, not Gamestop.

What was the robot-jetpack-shooty game that got lots of footage in this episode?

It looks far too fun for me not to have heard of it.

Crono1973:

Translation:

"I am upset that Gamestop has been so successful that other shops use Gamestops pricing schemes to determine how much they will give for and sell a game for".

Maybe you should be mad at the other shops, not Gamestop.

I have plenty of other reasons to be mad at GameStop, but yeah, other pawn shops are totally at fault for using GameStop to determine trade in value and that makes me mad.

On the one hand, EA =/= > evil then Gamestop just because they do the same thing. It in fact means EA = gamestop in evilness. The argument that bitching about one evil company is wrong just because another evil company is just as evil is ridiculous.

On the other hand, yeah, fuck EA.

Mostly though I kinda just have to laugh. I hate online multiplayer, I never use it unless it's a unique experience like AC: B or Red Dead, and even then only for a few days at most. So I laugh at your little multiplayer lovers who end up getting jibbed by stuff like 10 buck DLC for used when it's a bunk experience in the first place. Tee hee hee.

You wanna show devs that ten buck pass or whatever it's called is BS? Play an online game that doesnt make you pay for it used, like Halo or something. Tell them what you want with your wallets, cuz showing them they are right by shilling out the money while grumbling under your breath isn't gonna change anything.

Roman Monaghan:
On the one hand, EA =/= > evil then Gamestop just because they do the same thing. It in fact means EA = gamestop in evilness. The argument that bitching about one evil company is wrong just because another evil company is just as evil is ridiculous.

On the other hand, yeah, fuck EA.

Mostly though I kinda just have to laugh. I hate online multiplayer, I never use it unless it's a unique experience like AC: B or Red Dead, and even then only for a few days at most. So I laugh at your little multiplayer lovers who end up getting jibbed by stuff like 10 buck DLC for used when it's a bunk experience in the first place. Tee hee hee.

You wanna show devs that ten buck pass or whatever it's called is BS? Play an online game that doesnt make you pay for it used, like Halo or something. Tell them what you want with your wallets, cuz showing them they are right by shilling out the money while grumbling under your breath isn't gonna change anything.

They will start with restricting multiplayer and sooner or later, you will be putting in a code to play single player, just like PC's and then the used market will go away.

i can't believe publishers are pulling this crap. its bad enough that computer games are single shot sink holes, but now they want to destroy used console games?

this whole "make it impossible to share" focus will do more harm than good.
who hasn't rented or borrowed a game from a friend to see how it is?

making it accessible is the first part of selling it off. without the ability to test it out, people will be forced to look at game-play videos or rely on word of mouth to get a game. and if they don't like it? well it will certainly be on their mind the next time they want to buy one. without the knowledge that they can make up something for a bad choice, people will be much more wary of titles, a thing DLC and downloads does not cure.

I'm not sure what percentage they receive from used games (I'm thinking more from chains like gamestop, same or less from amazon etc, and less/little/none from direct trade/craigslist/maybe ebay)
but its gotta be better than no one buying the game at all because say, it got an iffy review and no one wants to sink money in an unsure thing.

maybe if they want to limit used proliferation,they could try another tactic.

1: they can just act like the small niche/rare games that make limited copies and have a huge profit hike when the person can't find a used copy under 40 bucks. keep stock and produce new ones as needed and sell them straight from publisher to limit used profit.

2: collect used games and sell them themselves. its not exactly nice, but if used isn't as profitable to them they could receive the majority of the profit straight up.

both of these keep the used market open while attempting to fix whatever beef they have. they could even add incentives like lower new prices, greater bonus when the game is sold back to them, cleaning up disks or adding bug fixes, artwork, etc...

bringer of illumination:

You know who is really hurt by used games?

Noone.

Noone is being hurt by used sales. Used sales have been part of the industry since the start.

Used sales do not represent a lost new sale.

But they do underpin the primary market.

If you want shot of used sales, kiss your hobby goodbye.

I guess turkeys really do vote for christmas.

I think from now on, I might just stick to buying used game for big titles.

Honestly, I'd rather fund a game store over the Evil Empires.

will this day 1 DLC bitching ever stop?

from when a game is done till you see it on the shelves or on your online shop takes about 1-3 months for sertification(depending on game length, complexity, is the game going to all current gen consoles and pc? or just 1 or 2? etc) on the other hand, DLCs takes arround 1-3 weeks of sertification... And during the 1-3 months of sertification do you honestly think the dev team sits twindeling their tumbs?

Does anyone know if its actually legal to charge for on-the-disc DLC. At the very least, it seems they should have to put a big red sticker on the box to let us know they''re going to charge us later.

Also, Jim, what do you think about Preorder Bonuses

ghost whistler:
No one.

No one is being hurt by used sales. Used sales have been part of the industry since the start.

Used sales do not represent a lost new sale.

But they do underpin the primary market.

If you want shot of used sales, kiss your hobby goodbye.

I guess turkeys really do vote for Christmas.

Some people just don't want to look at the long picture they just want to see the right this very moment.

There are lots of people who depend on used games. Some gamers just don't have the money right now to buy that new title because times are tough. Kids can't always depend on that new title from their parents and with their limited income options a used game beats no game. Some gamers want to catch up a series before buying the third game in the series. Perhaps an older game you regret you didn't buy before.

But used games keep those people in the gaming market. Maybe they aren't buying a new game right now but one day they may have the means for a new game. If gaming ever got to the point where only the people who could spend $60 on a game were the only people playing games then that's a smaller pool of potential customers.

this is going to be my personal favor to all you sad filthy people (as in i will be doing this from now on).

whenever you get promo codes and crap for a ps3 game, make a new account and download it, write the account info in the manual, and the next 4 people to buy the game can have the dlc, too. not sure how it works on multiplayer passes, though. i think they just care what system you're on?

AntonMTL:
Stop complaining and vote with your wallet. That is the way true democracy and capitalism works.

Problem with just voting with your wallet is if you take a step by yourself towards the society you want, it's not enough. You do have to complain, with reasoned, rational arguments in order to help other people understand the world you're voting for is one worth living in, otherwise all you can do is feel smug about yourself while reality runs off.

Hitchmeister:
Terrible terrible argument. "I can waste as much money as I want on crap games, thereby encouraging publisher to keep making even worse games, because I can turn around and resell them to some other sucker who will also hate it. It doesn't matter how bad games get because of the lemming-like churn of money to be made off cycle bad games around the toilet of current gaming."

Show a little self-control and don't give publishers your money for games you hate and you won't need to be able to resell them to to the next poor sod.

But don't cry because you're too stupid to recognize crap after being sold it repeatedly. And don't blame the publishers for thinking that what you really want is more of the same crap you've resold time and time again. They can't hear you over the piles of your money they're busy counting.

Terrible argument? You're one to talk. How the **** are you supposed to know whether you hate a game? I've had plenty of times where my intuition failed me, and I either bought a complete piece of crap, or passed up a masterpiece. Unless you're some sort of omnipotent being, in which case, you must be pretty easily amused to still be playing games.

And you completely forget the case in which a game is good, but you just don't like it. Or a game just isn't worth the $60 you paid for it, but the lower price might make it worth it to someone else.

Why do we demonize used game sales so much. Sure the developers only get money when the game is sold new. and don't get any of the proceeds when that games is sold used. But the same can be said for every manufactured object, when i buy a used car, the automobile manufacturers are not getting any money from that sale. How would you react if Toyota "buying used cars is worse then stealing cars. The same could be said of buying a used washing machine, the manufacturors are not getting any money from the used sale of that machine. So along the same lines as buying a used video game is worse the stealing a video game. Could argue that Buying a used washing machine is worse then stealing a washing machine.
Is buying a used car as bad as or worse then stealing a car? No.
Is buy a used book as bad or worse then stealing a book? No.
Is buying a used Television as bad or worse then stealing a television? No.
Is buy a used game worse then pirating a game? No.

Just a few quick points. If you bought a shit game, that's at least partly on you. Did you throw a dart and pay full price for a game you'd never heard of? Why didn't you do a little research. 5-10 minutes can avoid this whole mess.

And if you did buy a game, and it sucks, do you think GameStop doesn't know it's a "load of chimpanzee spunk?" Of course they know, and so your only getting a dollar or two for that trade in.

On the whole though, I agree with the basic premise that used games can exist. They're fine and dandy for the most part. My biggest problem is GameStop. That bunch of shysters are involved in so many other criminal ventures, that it's really hard to feel sorry for them when the big studios stick it to them.

Really, neither side is fully in the right here. Game studios are money grubbing capitalist pigs who wont be happy unless they're wiping their ass with $100 bills. And used game retailers are shady businesses that seem to be trying to piss off their main source of revenue, the big studios. Given these options, if I have t pick a side, I'll go with the ones who actually make the games for me.

If GameStop ceased to be, if the whole used game business went belly-up tomorrow... I could still play video games. Sure, I might be paying a bit more $$, which sucks, but the games would still be there. If the other side went away, well ...

Just a few quick points. If you bought a shit game, that's at least partly on you. Did you throw a dart and pay full price for a game you'd never heard of? Why didn't you do a little research. 5-10 minutes can avoid this whole mess.

Until you play a game, there is no way you can know for sure if it sucks. Especially for AAA titles where the reviewers are likely being paid off. Demos are the only way to know for sure and even then, the used industry exists when you no longer want the game anymore. The used industry is legal and it is pro-consumer. The publishers have used piracy to ensure that once you open a game, you are stuck with it and the cure is the used game industry.

And if you did buy a game, and it sucks, do you think GameStop doesn't know it's a "load of chimpanzee spunk?" Of course they know, and so your only getting a dollar or two for that trade in.

I don't know since I don't trade in my games but if you buy a AAA title for $60 at launch and sell it 2 days later (because it sucks or because you already beat it) you will get 1/3 to 1/2 of your money back won't you?

So there you go, you're partly to blame for buying a crappy game so you get the other part of your money back but that isn't because the publishers are fair, it's because the used market exists.

On the whole though, I agree with the basic premise that used games can exist. They're fine and dandy for the most part. My biggest problem is GameStop. That bunch of shysters are involved in so many other criminal ventures, that it's really hard to feel sorry for them when the big studios stick it to them.

Criminal ventures? Slander?

Really, neither side is fully in the right here. Game studios are money grubbing capitalist pigs who wont be happy unless they're wiping their ass with $100 bills. And used game retailers are shady businesses that seem to be trying to piss off their main source of revenue, the big studios. Given these options, if I have t pick a side, I'll go with the ones who actually make the games for me.

Selling used products is not a "shady" business practice. It's perfectly legal and to be honest, you can't get scammed at Gamestop because you can bring the game back for a full refund in 7 days for any reason and if the game is defective you can bring it back within 30 days. That's alot more consumer friendly than what the publishers offer. Gamestop doesn't offer those return policies on new games for the same reason Wal Mart doesn't, the publishers won't allow it.

If GameStop ceased to be, if the whole used game business went belly-up tomorrow... I could still play video games. Sure, I might be paying a bit more $$, which sucks, but the games would still be there. If the other side went away, well ...

The publishers aren't going away unless there is a total market crash so there is no ultimatum here.

Used games can be the only way of getting your hands on a game sometimes. An example is when I got Skies of Arcadia Legends (the GCN port), which I could only find on Ebay at the time.

Crono1973:

phreakdb:

Crono1973:

1) Irrelevant, Super Mario Galaxy was only an example.

2) True that, I buy new too when the packaging is important to me but it isn't always important to me.

3) This is really a concern for you? As long as you don't steal and you aren't buying it from a thief then that should be good enough for you.

4) You can return an unplayable game to Gamestop too. Even better, you can return a game to Gamestop for any reason in the first 7 days (I think it's 7 days) and get a full refund in the form of a store credit. Try that at Wal Mart. Take back Super Mario Galaxy II, tell them you don't like it and want Black Ops instead.

5) Fair enough but you could also do that by buying the DLC or the sequel on Day one. Happens all the time.

6) Fair enough but this goes back to 5.

Yeah I like PC games more too because of the faster loading times, better graphics and of course, the keyboard and mouse. You can't buy PC games used anymore and that is because those "fatcat" publishers have used DRM to fight the used market and won. They will do the same to the console market if people let them. I would encourage people not to let them.

I just realized something. It struck me like a bolt of lightning.

I was cruising through wal mart the other night, and I noticed that some of the games i saw in the 360/ps3 case for 50-60 bucks, were 30-40 for pc. For the same game. With better graphics and everything.

Maybe, the fact that DRM killed the used PC Games sector, allowed them to make the money they wanted. Now, I'm not saying that the price stuck for every game at that, but as the general rule, that's what it was.

Maybe, the lack of a used game market, as well as the lack of having to give everyone a cut off of the game's sale (console company, gamestop shelving fee, etc.) caused this phenomenon to occur?

I dunno. I think there is something there though.

- Maybe because there are no license fees to pay on PC like there is with the big three.

- Maybe because they sell more copies on consoles which keeps the prices higher (supply and demand).

- Maybe because the DRM has made consumers weary of buying physical copies and many would just prefer to get it on Steam without the securom.

BTW, in my local Wal Mart they have only WoW, Sims 3 and the million expansions and spins offs, Portal 2 and all the cheap jewel case $10 games and it's been that way for weeks. The PC section is neglected while the console games are well stocked and protected behind glass. Seems to me that Wal Mart certainly places more value on console games, probably because they sell better and I'll bet the used market has alot to do with it. After all, if you don't like it you can recover some of your money, especially in the first few weeks after release.

Fun way to get around walmart return policy if you dislike a game or other media: Tell them its damaged and you want a new copy. This new copy will be unopened, come back a few days later and return. Tada!

I find him annoying and at times obnoxious. That doesn't stop him from being right.

lowkey_jotunn:

If GameStop ceased to be, if the whole used game business went belly-up tomorrow... I could still play video games. Sure, I might be paying a bit more $$, which sucks, but the games would still be there. If the other side went away, well ...

If 'the other side' went belly up? Well, if you mean -every- publisher and developer.. yeah, that would suck. The industry would still recover, because there is still a significant demand for games, but it would suck. I don't see the relevance, though. Even if Activision and EA both kick the bucket, they really aren't the only driving forces in the industry.

I don't see why publishers are so scared of used games. Do they hurt the sales of new games? Only if there's a lot of people willing to pay only five dollars less for a used copy, which will be scarce in the first place. Or do they think people will continue to buy the game new even after it's been out for over a year and retailers have long since taken new copies off of the shelves? Not freaking likely!

Totally agree. A car bought is owned by the person who spent money on it. After the initial purchase, that person can do whatever the hell they want with it. It can exchange hands as many times as possible, the manufacturer of that vehicle doesn't deserve any of that money, why are games different?

This is the first Jimquisition that I've seen and I'm impressed. I'm glad that someone hasn't bought into the whole "used=theft" crap.

Where to start on this? There are a lot of points made that ignore specifics aspects of the industry. While I would never want any individual rights infringed upon, I would also encourage people to support the developers they like by purchasing their wares new.

Simple math shows what developers need to make on their game sales. I did a big thing of it here: http://johnmusim.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/welcome-to-my-first-rant/
But real quick recap, lets says a developer consists of 100 people, each making $60k a year. Average game development cycle is 2 years so that means this fictional game just cost 12 million dollars. Now lets say the developer gets $40 out of every new game. That means the developer needs to sell 300k copies of the game to break even. And this estimate does not include publisher costs like printing the game and instruction manual and advertising.

A used game store like Gamestop only carries new games so they can circulate used ones. The profit margins are pretty high since most people are willing to pay $50 for a used game that's relatively new. Gamestop's model pretty much guarantees that only the first month sales of a game matter which is exactly why DLC, subscriptions, and online passes exist. While I'm not fond of these things, I do understand their necessity.

The thing that irks me is that if used game sales were less of thing then the price of games wouldn't necessitate such a price since the game could enjoy a longer retail life span at a new price. But that's a should be, not unlike this video of the Jimquisition.

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