The Big Picture: Gender Games

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Therumancer: "No Bob, there is not an issue."

Um, yes, there is. And people denying that there is an issue here is one of the key parts of this issue.

Let's draw a generalization, using the recent controversy over comic books. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is too close to a rule to be healthy. If you meet Batman in a dark alley, his costume says "I am a dangerous vigilante, and if you are a criminal you're about to wake up broken and bleeding in a hospital bed - fear me." If you meet Starfire in a dark alley, her costume says "I am an easy lay, let's go back to my place - f*** me."

Far too much of the way women are presented has to do with presenting them as a sexual fantasy, as opposed to actual characters. Now, the argument is made that men are idealized or sexualized too. But, you know what? THAT ISN'T AN EXCUSE. Male characters may get silly costumes, but they're functional more often than not. Male characters may look like walls of muscle, but it makes sense if you're some warrior used to almost superhuman feats of strength. And, more to the point, male characters are more than the sum of a 13-year old's sexual fantasy.

If the rule was female characters who were wearing clothes that made sense for what they were doing - as opposed to for a stripping pole - then perhaps you would have a point. But that's not the rule. The rule is a level of objectification that is downright embarrassing. The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.

And, frankly, once this gets fixed, the medium will be a lot better for it, and it will be taken far more seriously.

I doubt the games will change their view on genders in games any time soon, anyway great video Bob :>

very informative, thanks bob

The whole way women are usually depicted in video games gets on my nerves a lot. This topic specifically is diffidently part of the problem. I often fail to find female characters believable for this same 1 dimensional way that female characters are often depicted. These characters always feel out of place in the games that they are in because of this. It needs to stop.

hermes200:
I think a lot of people should read this article: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/ before jumping to defend games. The link is from the main page of this video and, while a little long, its very good at conveying what is wrong with popular media (in this case: videogames; in the case of the article: comics) depiction of women vs depiction of men.

Hey, I was just about to post that article after I read it on RPS. So that's good! It never hurts to get this issue more publicity. Besides, I thought the above article explains the problem more clearly than Bob did, but in one way that's not surprising, since a female writer is bound to have a better perspective on the matter.

You know, the issue is that many gamers can't really accept any criticism against games or gaming. That is the real issue here.

Woodsey:

sleeky01:
So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

The character's pose communicates more about them than what they're wearing does (although the outfit can still be important).

Take the new Tomb Raider designs that have been put out: whilst she's still wearing a vest-top and has some great cleavage, her facial expressions and poses are what you're more drawn too. The tits aren't the centre of attention.

Compare that to the Underworld box art where they've literally cut her head out of the picture to maximise her tits and short-shorts.

OT: Considering the majority of opinions that are put out on the majority of relationship threads on this website, waiting for gamers to stop acting like women are evil is going to take a while.

I dont think Tomb Raider is a good example for this argument...if anything, Tomb Raider is a character who is fan service and they STILL give her quite amount of depth(lately). Thru the last 3 games, she has been in outfits n poses and ridiculous proportions, but also dont forget the growing character arc from Anniversary to Underworld, where Laras obsession for her mothers accident, who she blames herself at first for happening, as well as maturing into a person who used to value human life, but by the end of Underworld, is willing to go to any means to get revenge, reach her mother, and kill anything and anyone who gets in her path. If you analize her character, it is LOADS of layers into the human psyche of corrupting a innocent mind over time with pressure and horrible events.
The problem is the game is a bit poor on conveying decent story, but the fleshing out is there.

So thats lara. hot, posey, fan service, and yet fleshed out and complex.

Enjoyed the episode thoroughly. It's very very true, and a good take on an argument that's often overheated to uselessness.

However, I just can't help myself...

Last episode, you said "I know a black guy, and he doesn't think it's racist" isn't an empirical argument.

This episode, you said, in support of your argument: "...but I do know quite a few women that would be called both gamers and feminists..."

While of course you were more verbose in your explanation, if you remove the disclaimers, they boil down to the same essential thing, no?

:D

According to some pretty credible scientific research women evaluate the sexual desirability of a man based on a couple of factors. Symmetry (IE evidence of malformation in utero or youth), Height (direct translation of physical power), Wealth (abilty to provide), Fame/Status (ability to influence the tribe), Intelligence/competance (duh). There are some pretty hilariously exact ratio's that are involved up to literal inches being worth a certain amount in gross annual salary. IE all other factors being equal a short guy who makes an even million is as attractive as a tall guy making a hundred thousand. There are a few "hidden" metrics like immunocompatibility and such but unless we create smellovision video games that's not really relevant to us.

The reason I bring this up is that the metrics men use to evaluate women don't have nearly the depth or complexity. Men also evaluate symmetry and intelligence/competance, but height, fame and wealth just don't factor into the equation. This is why a so many romantic comedies have the woman being a clerk/secretary/checkout girl/artist. Her social status and income doesn't factor into her desirability.

The fun thing about this dichotomy is that male "cheesecake" is more often than not silly. A man without his status symbols (nice suit/tie, armor, gun, Head dress, crown, etc.) is less sexual attractive. Thus revealing/skimpy outfits generally don't work as sexualization unless it is tapping into a primal vein, to wit Conan, where his lack of clothing reinforces a lack of need for props. Conan is sexy because he is self contained, all his power derived from his own ability to project force not the whims of the tribe or his current material status. He exhibits promise. Simple visual sexualization of the male form appeals more to gay men who evaluate other gay men with the same metrics that men use on women. Don't believe me? Take a quick pop over to google and type in gay porn. You will be bombarded by a literal tidal wave of images that match quite closely with the standard "cheesecake" posings.

The ultimate point I am trying to convey is that this is a problem that goes way deeper than "feminism vs. gaming". Bob is right that there is a talking past issue, but it isn't just a matter of knee jerk on either side. It is about a complete and utter failure to even acknowledge the underlying terrain. People on both sides try and pretend that you can equate men and women. You can't.

Oh don't get me wrong. Male and female are totally equatable, were both human. There are differences physiologically, neurologically and psychologically but they are trivial compared to the similarities. The problem is that part of desire of men and women is to present themselves and see the other as attractive and what attracts men and women to one another are not the same. Thus even if there is a good deal of similarity between the sexes on an absolute level the instinct is the present yourself (whoever that self may be) as something different.

Marcus Fenix and the Master Chief are both paragons of masculine sexuality (for a certain value thereof, namely the teenage idealization of power). Ditto for a large portion of protagonist bin. More complex and nuanced views of masculine sexuality that strike a chord with older and more mature men are just as vanishingly rare as "nonsexualized women". You almost never get to play Otto Schindler or even Micheal Corleone, instead we get lots of Dolph Lundgren and Steven Seagal. See... I can't even be bothered to come up with characters for those two! All they do is play archetypes!

Being timelocked in the teenaged mindset is the problem. Or rather, being timelocked in the teenaged demographic. This is entirely an issue of market share and TIME. Nothing that we do, no protest and no angry rant will solve this. There is no solution in being progressive and waging campaigns. It doesn't matter one whit and will accomplish NOTHING. What needs to happen, and what will happen is that the population will get older and the boys will grow up. The oldest wave front of the gamer culture in in the mid thirties now. What we need to do is wait for them to be in their fifties and all the gamers now, male and female to be in their thirties. IE about 20 years from now.

In the mean time there will be a small specialized market for adults and a few large studios who are dedicated to the concept (kinda like how blizzard paid attention to mac users back when no one else did). But that is it. No use crying over it, hell I wouldn't even bother boycotting that crap. We all remember DOA Xtreme BEach Volleyball... that shit tanked despite everyone saying that they were going to line up and that any red blooded male who owned an x box needed to get it. The wonderful thing about cultural shifts are that they shift quite well on their own.

lockgar:

Daaaah Whoosh:
I think what game developers fail to realize is that they can have female characters who are incredibly hot without showing off their curves all the time.
Like Kat in Halo: Reach, or more simply the female SPARTAN model. It doesn't contain any less armor than the male version does(except the smaller codpiece, for obvious reasons), and yet many gamers could probably still jerk off to it, if they were that kind of person. What I'm trying to say, though, is that it works both ways. I'm sure there are some people out there, possibly women, who find the male SPARTANs attractive, and are similarly enthralled by the shape of their butts. However, no one is angry about this, because no one feels like they're watching some weird space pornography. They're simply enjoying seeing what some would consider idealized human forms in armor that is both functional and badass.

Or maybe make a female character that you don't want to fuck? Just a thought. Maybe have an actual person who happens to be female, and not an object of sexual desire?

For some guys, this is exceptionally difficult to do. Why? Well, lots of issues. Lack of sex, lack of a girlfriend or significant other, or just a powerful libido. I'm not proud of this, but more than once I've heard myself thinking, "Yeah, I'd have sex with her."

The best we can do is to try to not sexualize them in this way, but sometimes it's just a natural reaction. Is she hot or isn't she? Typically this determine whether or not you'd like to engage in sexual relations.

That said, I do think there need to be more strong and powerful women out there who don't depend on men or fall into typical romantic or sexual tropes. I'm a big fan of tough female characters, or those who (while not outwardly 'tough') have a great amount of willpower and resolve, and fight to the very end even when it seems hopeless (Hayao Miyazaki has made many characters like this, females who don't give up and take it beyond what other men or women would do).

EDIT: Could designers make unattractive female characters and still have them work? Of course. There are plenty of unattractive male characters out there that are popular. Will they be as popular as they would be if they were all attractive in some way or another, physically speaking? Yeah, probably, but that's really nothing we can change (at the moment).

The problem I have when this is ever brought up is with Mai and Morrigan being brought into the issue, and in this video itself Nathan Drake being brought in as well, because in each of those characters there's a reason (Morrigan is a succubus), and the characters video game line up needs to be considered.

Morrigan and Felicia are both apart of the Darkstalkers games, along side them on the female side of the roster are Q-Bee, Lilith, BB Hood, and Hsien-Ko. Q-Bee seems middle of the road, poses a bit on the "innocent" side and clothing is a little "look here", but possibly balances out. Hsien-Ko while having a breast window, the first thing I notice when I see a pose of hers is big claws. BB Hood on looks alone is innocent, red cloak covering her from head to knee, nothing sexual. Which brings us to Lilith, which is basically just a much younger version Morrigan, which is a little weird. But looking at the whole line up the women lean a little to the provocative side, but barely.

Mai, while all about TnA has been in a long running fighting franchise with a diversity of characters. And while the female cast is not as diverse as the male (the point, I know) we still have characters that are covered, Whip, Kula, King, Elizabeth, until recently Leona was wearing bulky military fatigues. Look at Elizabeth's poses, she is threatening and I cannot see any particular focus on her body, it's the hardened eyes. I think King of Fighters is a series that has been decently balanced with its characters looks and attitudes. While some characters have been sexual (Mai, Vice, Leona, Mature) even in the latest installment where the female roster is a bit lower than usually there's still the other female fighters which are either innocent (Yuri, Kula) or badass (Elizabeth and King), the women are split down the middle.

On the flip side of KOF we have the men, like Ash, who looks very feminine poses sexually, flips his hair. There's Benimaru who wears a tube top and tight tight pants. While it is another series of games where the men get to be over weight and the women not it at least making efforts. At the very least if Mai is just going to be kept being brought up a would like to see Benimaru mentioned every time she is, fairs fair.

Nathan Drake...the problem I have with Drake being used as an example of a male character getting different treatment than female characters is because look at his games and heroines right beside him, Elena, Chloe, and in 3 our lady villain, they're all fair, they're not the problem, I think one of the biggest problems is perspective. saying Drake gets better treatment than Ivy, there's a point, sure, but why not Elena get's better treatment, because it doesn't fit the argument as well?

There's IS a problem with women portrayal in games, comics, ect. But not a sexual character is all well and fine if it's only a character and not a medium right? Then why bring up characters such as Felicia, Mai, when they are part of larger character rosters which make an attempt to balance out. Or in the case of Morrigan have a reason to be as they are, she's a succubus, her being is sex and death, that shouldn't be a problem. Benimaru is out there. Perspective is needed.

Ser Imp:
I don't think anyone has pinned the cause of Nathan Drake being a smart-ass pretty boy as a shameless sex appeal used to entice female gamers (even though that probably did occur to some extent.)

May I introduce you to the "Tennant as Who" fandom?

Men don't care about depth when they're blowing shit-up or dislocating jawbones.

Yes they do. How do you think this forum gets so many responses from things like HALO, Modern Warfare, WoW, Star Wars, Firefly etc.

If anything, men care MORE about this sort of thing.

Compare/Contrast: Women arguing about Ivy : Men arguing about "NooooooooOoooooooOO!"

I'm certain it's the men who are the more passionate about detail. (Or just pedantics/buffs/nerds/whiners - take your pick)

Father Time:
God damnit Bob. Don't ever say something's an exception that proves a rule. Exceptions are evidence against rules.

Yeah I know it's nitpicking but it's a pet peeve major psychotic fucking hatred of mine.

Well, the old phrase actually means something like this:

If a generalisation says that women are exploited in the media, but then we have Sigourney Weaver who is an exception, does she disprove that generalisation that women are exploited? No, she is an exception that contrasts the problem, making it more obvious...

Weaver is an exception that proves the rule.

Robert B. Marks:
The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.

Nice to see we have an objective view on things here. *sigh* Shall we just lock this thread now before it gets to personal insults?

Huh. Once again, this issue being an important debate must be an American thing. I don't know a single instance of a debate like the one described here occurring, no instance of anyone criticising games for being sexist and then being met with that kind of response. It's just a non-issue in the environment I live in. Sorry Bob, I'm afraid this one went past me...

Edit: Then again, I don't think "gaming" is a lifestyle, so having "the gamers" as a category just seems irritatingly wrong to me.

Crono1973:

So in this area they will bitch and complain until men lose interest in gaming the way boys and men have lost interest in everything else feminists have destroyed.

Give an example. I find it really hard to believe gamers will stop gaming because of feminist complainers when they dismiss feminists anyway. Hell people complain about gaming have too many sequels and whatnot. Gamers agree and they still game anyway.

What have feminists destroyed anyway? They and Christian conservatives tried to destroy porn once and they failed miserably (to get an idea of what a miserable failure it was, read this http://www.cracked.com/article_17300_6-ways-that-porn-runs-world.html ).

Now both groups are going after games (for different reasons I know) and they are still failing miserably. A significant number of games are still incredibly violent and/or have fan service characters.

Can we please start discussing how the World is going to hell?

sleeky01:
So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

Here's a thrown-together example...

Leliana from Dragon Age Origins. Here's two shots of her with very similar character models.

In this one, the emphasis is on the face, and this face says, "I'm confident, and you're about to die."

image

In this one, the emphasis is on the body, and this body says, "I'm medieval warrior-chick eye candy." She may not be showing a lot of skin, but notice her exposed upper thigh, the thigh-high boots, and the way she's got one knee pulled slightly over in that coy, flirtatious way.

image

The former is a screen shot of a Leliana that only appears in in a couple of seconds in a cinematic.

The latter was the image chosen for cover art.

The latter is how women are much more often portrayed in gaming.

Ragsnstitches:

Father Time:
God damnit Bob. Don't ever say something's an exception that proves a rule. Exceptions are evidence against rules.

Yeah I know it's nitpicking but it's a pet peeve major psychotic fucking hatred of mine.

Well, the old phrase actually means something like this:

If a generalisation says that women are exploited in the media, but then we have Sigourney Weaver which is an exception. Does she disprove that generalisation that women are exploited? No, she is an exception that contrasts the problem, making it more obvious...

Weaver is an exception that proves the rule.

Exceptions are evidence against rules. The fact that exceptions crop up mean the rule has less power than it did. The more exceptions there are the more untrue the rule becomes.

remnant_phoenix:

sleeky01:
So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

Here's a thrown-together example...

Leliana from Dragon Age Origins. Here's two shots of her with the same character model.

This one says, "I'm confident, and you're about to die."

image

This one says, "I'm medieval warrior-chick eye candy."

image

The former is a screen shot of a Leliana that only appears in in a couple of seconds in a cinematic.

The latter was the image chosen for cover art.

The latter is how women are much more often portrayed in gaming.

That's actually a pretty good on the fly example. Good job.

Robert B. Marks:
Therumancer: "No Bob, there is not an issue."

Um, yes, there is. And people denying that there is an issue here is one of the key parts of this issue.

Let's draw a generalization, using the recent controversy over comic books. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is too close to a rule to be healthy. If you meet Batman in a dark alley, his costume says "I am a dangerous vigilante, and if you are a criminal you're about to wake up broken and bleeding in a hospital bed - fear me." If you meet Starfire in a dark alley, her costume says "I am an easy lay, let's go back to my place - f*** me."

Far too much of the way women are presented has to do with presenting them as a sexual fantasy, as opposed to actual characters. Now, the argument is made that men are idealized or sexualized too. But, you know what? THAT ISN'T AN EXCUSE. Male characters may get silly costumes, but they're functional more often than not. Male characters may look like walls of muscle, but it makes sense if you're some warrior used to almost superhuman feats of strength. And, more to the point, male characters are more than the sum of a 13-year old's sexual fantasy.

If the rule was female characters who were wearing clothes that made sense for what they were doing - as opposed to for a stripping pole - then perhaps you would have a point. But that's not the rule. The rule is a level of objectification that is downright embarrassing. The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.

And, frankly, once this gets fixed, the medium will be a lot better for it, and it will be taken far more seriously.

It's funny you use Batman as an example, because the various Batgirls and Batwomen are usually more covered up than the Robins.

edit 1: Obviously things are different with comic books writ large.

edit 2: Huh, that second Dragon Age pic doesn't seem too poorly posed.

There are a lot of people nitpicking MovieBob's examples. Perhaps some of them aren't the best choices out there, but the fact that game developers go for inherently sexy character concepts is part of the problem, and the fact that there are so many characters developed to mock this trend just depicts how popular it is.

There are a lot of games out there that involve seductress demons as important characters, far fewer have withered hags despite both being common in world mythology. But regardless of underlying form it would be nice if female characters, even ones with overtly sexy design, were at least created and displayed with greater character depth.

Fawxy:
I blame Tomb Raider almost entirely for this conflict. Yeah, the problem existed before that in games like Street Fighter and others, but I think as a whole the issue can be traced to the success of the character who had ridiculous proportions that were created as a joke by the developers.

Lara Croft certainly brought a lot of attention to the matter, and no doubt inspired quite a few games to have overly-sexualized female characters, but I think the situation today would have been largely the same with or without Tomb Raider.

Fawxy:
Whoops, nevermind. It looks like ndepren caused this issue. Who woulda thunk it?

Damn ndepren!

Tarkand:
One of the thing that surprised me was how good of a job Space Marine did of presenting a female officer in it's storyline (And it's not just me: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly)... of all games, a shallow futuristic military male-ego boost porn game

Great link - thanks! I've passed the article around to a couple folks, and it's gotten us interested in the game again.

Aiddon:

hermes200:
I think a lot of people should read this article: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/ before jumping to defend games. The link is from the main page of this video and, while a little long, its very good at conveying what is wrong with popular media (in this case: videogames; in the case of the article: comics) depiction of women vs depiction of men.

Huh, very intriguing. This is similar to what Moviebob talked about in one of his Overthinker episodes about depictions of men vs depictions of women in, well, ALL MEDIUMS. Just think about all the men who can have outright ugly as a positive trait (leaving out just ordinary or neutral men), but name me ONE woman who isn't depicted as a stunner (though, granted, I also have a hard time thinking of women designed/created by women who aren't also depicted as attractive)

For once, every medium that has to deal with real people usually include examples of non attractive men and women.

Books don't usually spend a lot of time in describing how hot the main character is so that the reader can fill up the blanks. Movies starred by Dustin Hoffman or Kathy Bates (even in their youth) were never advertised on the attractiveness of their actors. Of course, that was not always the case. 50s Hollywood wouldn't cast anyone for a main role that wasn't gorgeous, even when the character were known as ordinary, or, in most recent examples, they used Gerard Butler to play the "hideous" phantom of the opera.

However, mediums like videogames, comics and cartoons are worst on that sense because they don't cast characters, they design characters. Because of that, they have a lot more freedom to make characters more varied as they are not restricted by the appearance of talented actors. Which, in turn, makes it extra sad that they restrict themselves by designing female characters with impossible measures wearing impossible outfits in impossibles poses, for extra slutiness no matter the context.

Great episode, Bob. Hadn't really thought about how almost every female character in gaming is posing the exact same way, while male characters each show something unique and character-defining whenever they appear in screenshots. I think a big problem that gaming (and pretty much any form of media) has with portraying female characters is that it's become a given that women are one-dimensional. This pretty much stems from the male dominated view-point that men are complex and intelligent while women are creatures that only care about diamond rings, clothes, and marriage. It's gotten so bad that even games and shows that are aimed exclusively at women are automatically labeled as one-dimensional and stupid out of hand (most of them are because the creators of said media didn't put any effort into their product, but still...). The only female character I can think of off the top of my head who doesn't fall into this trap but is still definitely feminine would be Jade from Beyond Good and Evil.

P.S.

Animation= My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic? Cute. Why do you continue to tease us bronies, Bob!? :-P

Father Time:

Crono1973:

So in this area they will bitch and complain until men lose interest in gaming the way boys and men have lost interest in everything else feminists have destroyed.

Give an example. I find it really hard to believe gamers will stop gaming because of feminist complainers when they dismiss feminists anyway. Hell people complain about gaming have too many sequels and whatnot. Gamers agree and they still game anyway.

What have feminists destroyed anyway? They and Christian conservatives tried to destroy porn once and they failed miserably (to get an idea of what a miserable failure it was, read this http://www.cracked.com/article_17300_6-ways-that-porn-runs-world.html ).

Now both groups are going after games (for different reasons I know) and they are still failing miserably. A significant number of games are still incredibly violent and/or have fan service characters.

I don't want to get too far into this for it will get me banned but I will provide an example:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/06/women-dominate-higher-education-at.html

Don't like that link, Google the topic and get the information from any source you like.

I think there are two reasons for this,

- Title IX programs have benefited mostly women even beyond the point of equality

- feminists have bitched until the school systems (especially colleges) are completely geared toward teaching girls who learn differently than boys. Boys have little motivation to go to class at all when the teaching methods bore them. The same can happen to games if developers go out of their way to "grease the squeaky wheel" to meet the ever-changing demands of feminists.

4173:
edit 2: Huh, that second Dragon Age pic doesn't seem too poorly posed.

It's not nearly as bad as some, but take note of the exposed upper thigh, the thigh-high boots, and the way she has one knee pulled over slightly in that coy flirtatious way.

The first picture represents Leliana's confidence and combat skill.

The second picture is nowhere near as bad as Dead or Alive, true. But when you look it, you see that everything else that this picture could say about her character is down-played by the focus on Leliana being attractive/sexy, to the exclusion of anything else you could draw about her character. And that's exactly what Bob is talking about.

Good comment by Bob. I agree with one thing, the annoying thing about games is that women are depicted in only ONE way (99.9% of the time). I would also say it's true for men, for example if I want a character who's a bit skinny and tends to look a bit more "normal" I tend to go with a female body because all the men have muscles you would need a lifetime subscription to a protien powder to achieve.

That being said, I know women who like some characters who just look sexy but the problem is, as stated above, is that's the only choice for women. Some games, especally fantasy games are getting better with how women look especally when they treat armour propperly and not just as two steel postage stamps and a thong.

The upshot is, some women actually like to play a character who looks sexy and is just that however we want choice. Maybe I want to play a man who doesn't have incredable biceps or a woman that doesn't have a double D bra size. We need more variety in body type AND personality. Not just tuff action girl A and rugged action man B

The_root_of_all_evil:

Ser Imp:
I don't think anyone has pinned the cause of Nathan Drake being a smart-ass pretty boy as a shameless sex appeal used to entice female gamers (even though that probably did occur to some extent.)

May I introduce you to the "Tennant as Who" fandom?

Men don't care about depth when they're blowing shit-up or dislocating jawbones.

Yes they do. How do you think this forum gets so many responses from things like HALO, Modern Warfare, WoW, Star Wars, Firefly etc.

If anything, men care MORE about this sort of thing.

Compare/Contrast: Women arguing about Ivy : Men arguing about "NooooooooOoooooooOO!"

I'm certain it's the men who are the more passionate about detail. (Or just pedantics/buffs/nerds/whiners - take your pick)

Sorry, I'm not very good at debate (I Just threw that last sentence in as a closer) I meant that men don't care as much about male characters being objectified in video games. As long as the rest of the game is fun to play, we'd likely let two dimensional characters slide. But I DO appreciate complex characters and profound story-lines as a fan of things like Star Wars and Firefly.
BTW: which "NOOOOOOO!" are you referring to? the old one or the new one? I actually though the one at the end of Revenge was quite fitting, if only because Anikin was an absolute bitch. (yeah whole transformation/he's supposed to be bad ass Vader now but can't let go). As for the new one, I stopped caring about Lucas making changes to the original trilogy after I saw Han Solo shoot first on YouTube.

draythefingerless:

Woodsey:

sleeky01:
So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

The character's pose communicates more about them than what they're wearing does (although the outfit can still be important).

Take the new Tomb Raider designs that have been put out: whilst she's still wearing a vest-top and has some great cleavage, her facial expressions and poses are what you're more drawn too. The tits aren't the centre of attention.

Compare that to the Underworld box art where they've literally cut her head out of the picture to maximise her tits and short-shorts.

OT: Considering the majority of opinions that are put out on the majority of relationship threads on this website, waiting for gamers to stop acting like women are evil is going to take a while.

I dont think Tomb Raider is a good example for this argument...if anything, Tomb Raider is a character who is fan service and they STILL give her quite amount of depth(lately). Thru the last 3 games, she has been in outfits n poses and ridiculous proportions, but also dont forget the growing character arc from Anniversary to Underworld, where Laras obsession for her mothers accident, who she blames herself at first for happening, as well as maturing into a person who used to value human life, but by the end of Underworld, is willing to go to any means to get revenge, reach her mother, and kill anything and anyone who gets in her path. If you analize her character, it is LOADS of layers into the human psyche of corrupting a innocent mind over time with pressure and horrible events.
The problem is the game is a bit poor on conveying decent story, but the fleshing out is there.

So thats lara. hot, posey, fan service, and yet fleshed out and complex.

We're not talking about the actual character though, but how the pose doesn't particularly indicate that.

I'd agree that before this reboot, they were better with her, but this is still a good example of how the clothes and bra-size have become far less important to what you can infer of the character.

Crono1973:

Father Time:

Crono1973:

So in this area they will bitch and complain until men lose interest in gaming the way boys and men have lost interest in everything else feminists have destroyed.

Give an example. I find it really hard to believe gamers will stop gaming because of feminist complainers when they dismiss feminists anyway. Hell people complain about gaming have too many sequels and whatnot. Gamers agree and they still game anyway.

What have feminists destroyed anyway? They and Christian conservatives tried to destroy porn once and they failed miserably (to get an idea of what a miserable failure it was, read this http://www.cracked.com/article_17300_6-ways-that-porn-runs-world.html ).

Now both groups are going after games (for different reasons I know) and they are still failing miserably. A significant number of games are still incredibly violent and/or have fan service characters.

I don't want to get too far into this for it will get me banned but I will provide an example:

Bashing feminism will not get you banned. Being a jerk or saying that all women/men/whatever are evil will get you into trouble, but it will probably be warnings at first (I'm not accusing you of doing those things just so we're clear).

Crono1973:

- feminists have bitched until the school systems (especially colleges) are completely geared toward teaching girls who learn differently than boys. Boys have little motivation to go to class at all when the teaching methods bore them. The same can happen to games if developers go out of their way to "grease the squeaky wheel" to meet the ever-changing demands of feminists.

I'm not sure if that's what's really happened in schools but that's another debate (one which I'm too ignorant to participate in). Anyway I think that's a legitimate concern for some games but at the same time there are developers who just ignore all the complainers. Rockstar never removed the "solicit prostitutes then kill them to get your money back" option in GTA despite feminists, the media and pretty much every family group giving them shit over it.

I think there will always be developers who cater to gamers who ... don't have the same tastes as feminists so I don't think it will ever be destroyed.

I love how Bob talks about far more diverse male character models in games, and to emphasize that point, shows a picture where five of the six characters shown are very muscular, bodybuilder types.

Also, would I be completely off the mark in suggesting that a lot of female sexualisation depends strongly on the genre of game? I notice that a lot of the characters shown in these kind of discussions come from games like Soul Calibur, Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. Looking at my own game library - Gears of War, Mass Effect, Assassins Creed, Red Dead Redemption, Red Faction, Fable,Left 4 Dead, Dead Space, Fallout 3, and so on- I can't remember offhand any character who went to war in a bikini.

One more thing if a franchise ever does something stupid to cater to feminists (or Fox News or any other group of complainers that do not play the game), you can expect a backlash from the fans and if the company is smart they'll listen to the fans over the other group.

So yeah over the long run I'm not too worried.

Once again I leave edified, educated, and slightly aroused. Nice work Mr. Bob.

lockgar:

Or maybe make a female character that you don't want to fuck? Just a thought. Maybe have an actual person who happens to be female, and not an object of sexual desire?

All right, then. Why don't we talk about how the leading men in video games always look handsome and well-built, then? There are seldom any fat or ugly men in games, especially in many RPGs, where there is only one body type per gender for every human NPC. Normally, both sexes are portrayed in a way that makes them attractive to most people. I'm just trying to say that if it's going to be that way, it might as well be equal for both men and women in all respects. I mean, I'm all for seeing a bunch of non-attractive people in video games, as long as it's not just the women.

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