The Big Picture: Gender Games

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 NEXT
 

JustaGigolo:
I've seen terribly written female characters in the Dead Or Alive games

No love for the game </3
I only really gave a dam about the fight and still do
All my friends just see the boob physics :P

Its all a matter of opinion
I am working to be a games designer (YAAY UNIVERSITY) :)
Its difficult to work with a media were the people who argue are the most vocal and (sometimes) less qualified (im not on about the mass audience just those who say "GAMES ARE BAD CUZ I SAID SO.. NO I DIDNT PLAY ANY GAMES" (Im looking at you FOX NEWS !) They annoy the hell outta me

If you took the pose thing IE to take the Marcus Fenix pose and stuck a female character in there will it feel the same ? DAM RIGHT !! (as long as you dont over sexualise it)

WOO SISTERS OF BATTLE (warhammer 40K)

Father Time:

Crono1973:

Father Time:

Give an example. I find it really hard to believe gamers will stop gaming because of feminist complainers when they dismiss feminists anyway. Hell people complain about gaming have too many sequels and whatnot. Gamers agree and they still game anyway.

What have feminists destroyed anyway? They and Christian conservatives tried to destroy porn once and they failed miserably (to get an idea of what a miserable failure it was, read this http://www.cracked.com/article_17300_6-ways-that-porn-runs-world.html ).

Now both groups are going after games (for different reasons I know) and they are still failing miserably. A significant number of games are still incredibly violent and/or have fan service characters.

I don't want to get too far into this for it will get me banned but I will provide an example:

Bashing feminism will not get you banned. Being a jerk or saying that all women/men/whatever are evil will get you into trouble, but it will probably be warnings at first (I'm not accusing you of doing those things just so we're clear).

Crono1973:

- feminists have bitched until the school systems (especially colleges) are completely geared toward teaching girls who learn differently than boys. Boys have little motivation to go to class at all when the teaching methods bore them. The same can happen to games if developers go out of their way to "grease the squeaky wheel" to meet the ever-changing demands of feminists.

I'm not sure if that's what's really happened in schools but that's another debate (one which I'm too ignorant to participate in). Anyway I think that's a legitimate concern for some games but at the same time there are developers who just ignore all the complainers. Rockstar never removed the "solicit prostitutes then kill them to get your money back" option in GTA despite feminists, the media and pretty much every family group giving them shit over it.

I think there will always be developers who cater to gamers who ... don't have the same tastes as feminists so I don't think it will ever be destroyed.

Discussing gender issues at all is a touchy topic and I know not to stick more than a toe in the water.

I am done here, just wanted to put some thoughts out there for people to poke holes in, laugh at or consider.

Problem is, any pose is a sexy pose in some of those outfits.

But otherwise, in the fighting game setup they're kinda supposed to be peaks of human form. The men show that by being incredibly muscular, and the women show it by being sexy. Granted, peak of physical fitness may or may not make you pretty, but its the superhero setup of the ultimate man or ultimate woman. And, technically, tight fitting (or lack of) clothes does make it easier to move and do high kicks. Alot can still stand to be done with a bit more class but it will still be tight fitting. There are very functional japanese outfits these fighters could be using that are a bit more classy and less revealing, though at this point alot of them already have the outfits one is used to. Mmmm.....miko priestess outfits.......what?

But enough about mere fighting game characters, they're not really meant to be entirely fleshed out characters, just beautiful people and stereotypes that beat the crud out of each other.

When the person is a main character for an entire game, that's when it gets weird. I mean, sometimes it is kinda just meant to be a sexy character. But in an rpg.....kind of want a bit more class there. Yeah one of your merry crew might just be the stereotypical sexy person along for the ride, but variety is still key. And just maybe have a jrpg where there isn't a damsel character....who's a princess...hates fighting.....and is a healer. Make a dude the timid healer, mix it up a bit. Maybe the chicks are the battle hungry front-runners or phalanxes. Certainly the heavy armored "knight" female character who's more confused or disassociated with her female side than anyone else is an interesting character to have around.

X-2.....hmmm. That's a whole other column's worth of ranting for another time perhaps.

Michael Hirst:

What I thought of a lot through this part of the video was Trishka from Bulletstorm, in writing she was supposed to be a tough talking bad ass marine who happened to be female, the in game character though was more sexualized, sure a vest top isn't all that kinky but then there's her slender body, the makeup, the well groomed hair, all this on a hostile planet of nutters while everyone else wears combat armour Trishka has to look good. Also as the narrative (if it can be called that) progresses we eventually get to see the weaker side of Trishka in order to make her more endearing, the whole point of her badass character gets lost in a stupid love/hate "witty banter" force romance between herself and Grayson aka Macho Ex Space Marine Hero Guy. I'd rate her as possibly one of the worst female characters of the year.

Wow.

Hitting me with frisbee out of nowhere. Like, really? You honestly invested sexual thoughts into Trishka? Shows that everything is open to interpretation sometimes...

I didn't feel that at all. Sure i did notice that she had more lash than Greyson, but she was as Marine as the rest of the cast. Oooo, Tank top! That's sexual! No...no it isn't. At least not to me.
She spat out toilet humor, as if she were raised by re-watching 'Vampires Suck'. In fact, I caught more of a "bromance" thing going on between Grayson and Her (if any, that is), than an out of place romance. Though yes, we do see her in a weaken state, due to her character...Just like we see (or at least hear) Grayson do with Ishi's "death".

Slender body? That is what you call fit. Women and men have different baselines of physical progress, based on what the do. Ever been to a gym? I have. Though the women lift weights, they do not become muscular in the same way men do.
Groomed hair? It looked like she put a mop on her head, just like Grayson looks like, he's been blow drying his greasy hair, in a wind tunnel.

But hey! If you feel attracted to her, then good for you! 'Cause she wasn't for me.

OT: You can't really draw in games from Japan. We are different culture-wise. Japan's "idol culture" comes to mind here. Women with lots of curve and men over-muscular structure are key features in Japanese games (some rather have their men being skin-clean deep-eyed nice guys, but the point remains). Hell, women and girls actually look up to other women with more curve, and even more cleavage, than they have themselves (or could ever hope for). Taking E-honda, he has a body that is idealized along the same lines as women with skimpy clothing, not counting that E-honda's outfit is nothing but "raggy" underwear by western standards. I would really like to own Sagat's six-pack. Should I feel offended, because he doesn't wear a shirt? Should I be offended that he isn't skinny and small like me? That Ryu shouldn't have such broad shoulder, or Ken such a back, because it isn't how I'm, if any average or strong modern man is portrayed? Oh, I should? Well...I'm not.

Feminists making an issue out of something that isn't.

4173: "It's funny you use Batman as an example, because the various Batgirls and Batwomen are usually more covered up than the Robins."

Yeah, that's what came to mind - I had just been reading the article about the comics, and reading all of those posts in reply that amounted to "Yeah, but men are oversexualized too!"

And, I'll concede what I've seen of Batman is pretty close to the way things should be done. Catwoman doesn't look like a stripper, and neither do the other female characters. But, you look at video game characters, and wow...just wow. There are female video game costumes that would require glue or double-sided tape just to work.

(And, speaking of Robin, well, I'm not a comic book fan, so what I've seen has tended to be on TV, and there the Batman and Robin combination freaks the hell out of me. Most of the time, Robin looks like he's around 12 years old - Batman should go to jail for endangerment of a minor. And that's not counting all of the other unfortunate implications of having a "boy wonder" actually being a boy.)

Really, though, when it comes down to it, a lot of games are stuck in a sort of adolescence. The gender roles say as much. There are times when that works (such as the send-up that Duke Nukem was supposed to be, but didn't end up being), but most of the time it is just indefensible. And any medium will find its own market. If you make games that are serious and deal with adult themes (as opposed to what a 13-year-old thinks is adult), then you will attract mature people who will take the games seriously. If you keep making games where women are treated like something out of a porno or a strip club, then you will attract immature players and the medium will remain stagnant, and a joke.

Rarhnor:

Michael Hirst:

What I thought of a lot through this part of the video was Trishka from Bulletstorm, in writing she was supposed to be a tough talking bad ass marine who happened to be female, the in game character though was more sexualized, sure a vest top isn't all that kinky but then there's her slender body, the makeup, the well groomed hair, all this on a hostile planet of nutters while everyone else wears combat armour Trishka has to look good. Also as the narrative (if it can be called that) progresses we eventually get to see the weaker side of Trishka in order to make her more endearing, the whole point of her badass character gets lost in a stupid love/hate "witty banter" force romance between herself and Grayson aka Macho Ex Space Marine Hero Guy. I'd rate her as possibly one of the worst female characters of the year.

Wow.

Hitting me with frisbee out of nowhere. Like, really? You honestly invested sexual thoughts into Trishka? Shows that everything is open to interpretation sometimes...

I didn't feel that at all. Sure i did notice that she had more lash than Greyson, but she was as Marine as the rest of the cast. Oooo, Tank top! That's sexual! No...no it isn't. At least not to me.
She spat out toilet humor, as if she were raised by re-watching 'Vampires Suck'. In fact, I caught more of a "bromance" thing going on between Grayson and Her (if any, that is), than an out of place romance. Though yes, we do see her in a weaken state, due to her character...Just like we see (or at least hear) Grayson do with Ishi's "death".

Slender body? That is what you call fit. Women and men have different baselines of physical progress, based on what the do. Ever been to a gym? I have. Though the women lift weights, they do not become muscular in the same way men do.
Groomed hair? It looked like she put a mop on her head, just like Grayson looks like, he's been blow drying his greasy hair, in a wind tunnel.

But hey! If you feel attracted to her, then good for you! 'Cause she wasn't for me.

OT: You can't really draw in games from Japan. We are different culture-wise. Japan's "idol culture" comes to mind here. Women with lots of curve and men over-muscular structure are key features in Japanese games (some rather have their men being skin-clean deep-eyed nice guys, but the point remains). Hell, women and girls actually look up to other women with more curve, and even more cleavage, than they have themselves (or could ever hope for). I would really like to own Sagat's six-pack. Should I feel offended, because he doesn't wear a shirt?

With Trishka i got a more "Im gunna kill you and then use you as a meat shield if you piss me off more than you already have by breathing my air"
Or as she said herself " IM GUNNA KILL YOUR DICK !!"
Her She might have lost the armour in a situation you arnt part of ? Think of her story
*Spoiler* You blow up the ship she is on at the start of Bulletstorm whos got the time to pick up armour when your trying not to blow up ? *Spoiler*

I don't think about this very much because I by and large agree with the 'feminist' viewpoint, and I am personally offended that devs think I'll look into/buy/enjoy their game more because there is a girl with big boobs in them. But this is a very nice look into the underlying mechanisms of the thing.

I realize that every time an almost normal girl (or just competent in combat girl) shows up as an important character in a game, even if she's not drop dead-gorgeous, she has to have some feature that's über hot, usually a gigantic rack. Like Elizabeth in the upcoming Bioshock Infinite, or the bodyguard lady in Dead Island. I think this shows some people are trying to change this and some people are pushing not to.

I'll also add that Ivy is probably one of the girls who gets a pass on this stuff, since she also uses her sexuality as a weapon - which is why one of her alterative outfits is usually some sort of military uniform that shows nothing but her head, as if she was saying 'I can beat you by distracting you with my boobies, but I don't need to. It's just more fun this way.' The rest of the SC roster is guilty though.

Also when you showed Bowser's second pose I was sure you were going to say it communicates U GONNA GET RAPED.

Therumancer:
lotsa stuff

No. There is a difference. Look at the roster of any random fighting game.

There will be a lot of fine looking man with muscular arms and big biceps and revealing clothing.

There will be a lot of fine looking women with big boobs and huge legs and revealing clothes.

There will be a bunch of weird looking man who are mutated or on fire or skeletons or maybe just fat, depending on the setting.

And there might be a robot.

See the problem?

Ser Imp:

Sorry, I'm not very good at debate (I Just threw that last sentence in as a closer)

We're all learning :)

I meant that men don't care as much about male characters being objectified in video games. As long as the rest of the game is fun to play, we'd likely let two dimensional characters slide. But I DO appreciate complex characters and profound story-lines as a fan of things like Star Wars and Firefly.

This is where opinions differ I think. Men care far more about the "heart" of the character they're playing while women (seem to) care about the appearance - but that's visible in other things as well. If you have Mai Shiranui wearing a suit, she'd still be "phwooar"ed at by blokes, but if Andy Bogard dumps her....they're going to go ape-shit.

BTW: which "NOOOOOOO!" are you referring to? the old one or the new one? I actually though the one at the end of Revenge was quite fitting, if only because Anikin was an absolute bitch. (yeah whole transformation/he's supposed to be bad ass Vader now but can't let go). As for the new one, I stopped caring about Lucas making changes to the original trilogy after I saw Han Solo shoot first on YouTube.

I think "Noooo" just refers to every change Lucas has made now. Without anyone to spank his wrist he's just wringing the cash cow dry.

The real "Nooo" was that the prequels didn't (and in my mind, shouldn't) have told the tale of Vader.

Now, if you're gonna sell people on the fact that Sonya Blade now fights in high heels - use the phrase "Lucasized" it, and you'll get a lot more men behind you.

I think that a perfect model of a female (or at least a teenage confused female) is Heather from Silent Hill 3. I'm pretty sure that that is one of the few female character in video games that actually uses body language to express emotions other than "look at me stud" and "I'm a big girl cause I have a big gun/knife/pink dildo in my hand".

And to be honest, the way in which she looks and acts like an actual person makes her just as sexy as all of the over designed (and sexualised) characters.

The_root_of_all_evil:

This is where opinions differ I think. Men care far more about the "heart" of the character they're playing while women (seem to) care about the appearance - but that's visible in other things as well. If you have Mai Shiranui wearing a suit, she'd still be "phwooar"ed at by blokes, but if Andy Bogard dumps her....they're going to go ape-shit.

Do you really think so? I've seen men diss character of both genders, but mostly females, because they're 'butt ugly' or whatever, and when I see a female talking about a character it's usually about personality arcs and relationships and stuff.

Matthew Dunn:

With Trishka i got a more "Im gunna kill you and then use you as a meat shield if you piss me off more than you already have by breathing my air"
Or as she said herself " IM GUNNA KILL YOUR DICK !!"
Her She might have lost the armour in a situation you arnt part of ? Think of her story
*Spoiler* You blow up the ship she is on at the start of Bulletstorm whos got the time to pick up armour when your trying not to blow up ? *Spoiler*

*Slow confirming clap*

Exactly! She comes off as an aggressive, selfish, one-of-the-boys kind of girl with a lot more teeth than boobs, than an over-idealized image of something unattainable or unfair sexualization of gender. For me, the writers did their job.

Is it nice living in the early 2000's Bob? Because everything you bitched about is already in the process of being addressed. With the only flippant exception really being Japanese made games. But they have a whole cultural view of women that clashes with the west.

Western made games have started moving away from what you were pointing out quite some time ago.

Also, yea, really original video there Bob. Feel good stiring up that pot again does it? Does it make you feel like a big man?

You may as-well have titled your video 'Flamebait, coz I got fuck all else to talk about!'

Not feeling you this week MovieBob not because the topic wasn't good it just felt all over the place and rushed. I think it could of been handled a bit better but that's just me. After all you said you didn't have enough to do an entire episode out of so that might be why it felt like it did. Still good subject.

sleeky01:
So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

From a feminist gamer, here's a good example:

image
The original cover of Parasite Eve shows Aya Brea looking determined about something, and Melissa hovering in the background, looking simultaneously sexy (awesome cleavage) and horrifically mutated (mantis arms). It clearly showed that this game was all about two powerful women attempting to kill each other - two women enter, one woman leaves.

On the other hand...

image

Parasite Eve 2 is Aya looking sleepy and showing a lot of leg for... no real reason. She still looks like a cop, which helps us know that she's a cop, and we do see some weird dudes in the background that we'll be murdering during game play, but it doesn't convey the same strong message as PE1.

And finally...

image

The cover to the third game. Aya... is wearing leather and torn jeans. And standing around with little to no expression on her face. No determination, like the first game. No slightly sleepy sadness like the second game. Just... blank. Like she's a blow-up doll or a Japanese love pillow.

It's sad really. A lot of time and effort went into that third cover, but the original "five minutes using screen-caps from cut-scenes and Photoshop" cover looks WAY better. Cheap as the original cover is, it tells the whole story of the game right there on the cover. On the other hand, Third Birthday tells us nothing on the cover - except, perhaps, that Aya's clothing will get torn in a sexy fashion during gameplay. Which it does.

So there you have it - Aya was always sexy, but her portrayal has gotten less interesting even as her graphics have improved - because too much attention is paid to her looking sexy rather than her being awesome.

Pro tip: If your female character is attractive and doing awesome things, then that will MAKE her sexy. Awesomeness makes a character more sexy. Stupid poses... don't.

Are we throwing out female Shepard with the bathwater?

I think this is a shallow-end of the pool argument. All the points brought up can be applied to male characters as well. Is it more acute with females? Yes, I'll concede that I think it is. But try to remember the last time you didn't play a tough guy in a video game. Because aside from Alan Wake, I can't think of one in recent memory offhand, and that game's female characters weren't stereotypical either.

It's easy to point at something with a lack of depth like a fighting game and go, "look, tits everywhere." And it's a valid point. But you can do the same thing with movies. Should I judge cinema as a form of media because I saw The Expendables? The bottom line is that gaming as a medium is so huge that it's going to cover a lot of ground. But teenage males are not the entire market. They're just a lot of money, so of course they will have a lot of representation. That goes both ways in terms of affecting protagonists. But to say that this is the entire realm of video games' issue is ignorant of the medium.

What sells best is always going to be what is most visible. But it's NEVER the entirety of the "big picture."

Matthew Dunn:

Rarhnor:

Michael Hirst:

What I thought of a lot through this part of the video was Trishka from Bulletstorm, in writing she was supposed to be a tough talking bad ass marine who happened to be female, the in game character though was more sexualized, sure a vest top isn't all that kinky but then there's her slender body, the makeup, the well groomed hair, all this on a hostile planet of nutters while everyone else wears combat armour Trishka has to look good. Also as the narrative (if it can be called that) progresses we eventually get to see the weaker side of Trishka in order to make her more endearing, the whole point of her badass character gets lost in a stupid love/hate "witty banter" force romance between herself and Grayson aka Macho Ex Space Marine Hero Guy. I'd rate her as possibly one of the worst female characters of the year.

Wow.

Hitting me with frisbee out of nowhere. Like, really? You honestly invested sexual thoughts into Trishka? Shows that everything is open to interpretation sometimes...

I didn't feel that at all. Sure i did notice that she had more lash than Greyson, but she was as Marine as the rest of the cast. Oooo, Tank top! That's sexual! No...no it isn't. At least not to me.
She spat out toilet humor, as if she were raised by re-watching 'Vampires Suck'. In fact, I caught more of a "bromance" thing going on between Grayson and Her (if any, that is), than an out of place romance. Though yes, we do see her in a weaken state, due to her character...Just like we see (or at least hear) Grayson do with Ishi's "death".

Slender body? That is what you call fit. Women and men have different baselines of physical progress, based on what the do. Ever been to a gym? I have. Though the women lift weights, they do not become muscular in the same way men do.
Groomed hair? It looked like she put a mop on her head, just like Grayson looks like, he's been blow drying his greasy hair, in a wind tunnel.

But hey! If you feel attracted to her, then good for you! 'Cause she wasn't for me.

OT: You can't really draw in games from Japan. We are different culture-wise. Japan's "idol culture" comes to mind here. Women with lots of curve and men over-muscular structure are key features in Japanese games (some rather have their men being skin-clean deep-eyed nice guys, but the point remains). Hell, women and girls actually look up to other women with more curve, and even more cleavage, than they have themselves (or could ever hope for). I would really like to own Sagat's six-pack. Should I feel offended, because he doesn't wear a shirt?

With Trishka i got a more "Im gunna kill you and then use you as a meat shield if you piss me off more than you already have by breathing my air"
Or as she said herself " IM GUNNA KILL YOUR DICK !!"
Her She might have lost the armour in a situation you arnt part of ? Think of her story
*Spoiler* You blow up the ship she is on at the start of Bulletstorm whos got the time to pick up armour when your trying not to blow up ? *Spoiler*

Her starting character is very shit talking and all the rest of it I agree and there may be some story as to why she doesn't have armour but my point still stands her character progression slowly strips away her badass/military exterior to reveal a vulnerable woman who is at the whims of other men be they Grayson or the General, okay she doesn't become a completely dominated mess like Samus in Other M but I felt she was reduced to a token female character whose design wasn't meant to invoke a tough girl attitude at all. I think her physical appearance is extremely poor character design if they wanted to make her seem tough, also most of her publicity pictures have her adopting the cocked hip girly stance, this is very VERY common in videogame characters, sure it's all open to interpretation.

P.S I didn't feel attracted to her but it seemed like the devs wanted me to be.

I gotta go with Bob on this one... It's getting rather boring how female characters in skimpy outfits are identified and posed for the purpose of titilation rather than to convey who the character is.

Besides, I'm getting reeeeally bored of bikini armor nonsense.

The Random One:

The_root_of_all_evil:

This is where opinions differ I think. Men care far more about the "heart" of the character they're playing while women (seem to) care about the appearance - but that's visible in other things as well. If you have Mai Shiranui wearing a suit, she'd still be "phwooar"ed at by blokes, but if Andy Bogard dumps her....they're going to go ape-shit.

Do you really think so? I've seen men diss character of both genders, but mostly females, because they're 'butt ugly' or whatever, and when I see a female talking about a character it's usually about personality arcs and relationships and stuff.

I believe there's a difference between what they say and what they mean.

Shock and Awe is the only real one I can think of that isn't spoilered to all hell. Most Rough, Tough, HARD FOOTBALL LOVING men sit there shocked. Equally, the death of Aeris.

Ever heard a female gamer talking about it?

lockgar:

NameIsRobertPaulson:
How a character poses is VERY open to interpretation. Morrigan Aensland gives that pose, because she's a succubus, and could kill you seven times before you blink, so she can afford to show off. Cammy has a stronger fighting stance then almost the entire SF roster, there's nothing feminine about that.

By the way, nice use of Marcus Fenix (360) and Nathan Drake (PS3) to cover the Nintendo fan-boyism. Not gonna quiet the crowd though.

Morgan character as being sexuality is probably her entire point, being a succubus and all, but Cammy, she still has her outfit riding straight up her ass, with her intro pose in SF4 being a straight look at it. TARGET ACQUIRED!

Lol, fanboys. This mostly applies to anyone under the age of 18. If you discredit someone because of being a fanboy despite making a completely valid point, for shame. There has already been several videos he posted on the subject already though.

So yeah, bad character design for women? I don't even understand why this is still an issue when people have the internet and a simple google search can get any amount of nakedness you could want. This applies for any media that tries to use sex to "enhance" the experience. I just find it pandering.

Yea a design is simply that a design it's suppose to stand out in some way and people are the same way.It defines their character, some are more reserved and some assertive that's how people are and designs reflect that. Getting upset because a design that somebody wanted to work with a story template didn't agree with you it's not the fault designer that you didn't like that design choice. We can't like everything and it's not their job to create a character as such. If we had all characters be "normal" and I mean that nothing really stands out the story is gonna be chaotic. No real order because all the "normal" characters are gonna do what they want and when they end up doing what they want. They'll end up falling into tropes that the designers were trying to avoid in the first place.

Morrigan's design she dresses and acts they way she do because she's bored. She didn't want to rule the demon world, she just wanted to have fun and enjoy life. Yet end the end she realizes she has to rule the demon world because she's the only one strong enough. If you put that design on someone else they wouldn't be a bad character on paper. Who isn't bored, who doesn't want to shirk their responsibilities and just enjoy life for what it is. We all struggle gain the courage to accept our responsibilities in life. Morrigan's design on paper is very good when you think about it. It's just when people look at her physical design they just see the sexy attitude and clothes. When she's a very well rounded character. Holy Shit if you think about it Dante is the male version of Morrigan's original design concepts.

Father Time:

Ragsnstitches:

Father Time:
God damnit Bob. Don't ever say something's an exception that proves a rule. Exceptions are evidence against rules.

Yeah I know it's nitpicking but it's a pet peeve major psychotic fucking hatred of mine.

Well, the old phrase actually means something like this:

If a generalisation says that women are exploited in the media, but then we have Sigourney Weaver which is an exception. Does she disprove that generalisation that women are exploited? No, she is an exception that contrasts the problem, making it more obvious...

Weaver is an exception that proves the rule.

Exceptions are evidence against rules. The fact that exceptions crop up mean the rule has less power than it did. The more exceptions there are the more untrue the rule becomes.

Doh... your not meant to take the phrase literally. The rule is not a rule or law or set in stone, it is meant to be a generalisation or common understanding. The exception is something that is scrutinised under that generalisation but has an opposite impact.

Rather then it disproving the generalisation, it in fact emphasises the generalisation by comparison.

""The exception [that] proves the rule" is a frequently confused English idiom. The original meaning of this idiom is that the presence of an exception applying to a specific case establishes that a general rule existed."

remnant_phoenix:

image

Why does she have her sword in one hand, and her bow in the other? That's just dumb.

I guess we can say that's one of the breast episode !

Mahha:
I think that a perfect model of a female (or at least a teenage confused female) is Heather from Silent Hill 3. I'm pretty sure that that is one of the few female character in video games that actually uses body language to express emotions other than "look at me stud" and "I'm a big girl cause I have a big gun/knife/pink dildo in my hand".

And to be honest, the way in which she looks and acts like an actual person makes her just as sexy as all of the over designed (and sexualised) characters.

Oh, good example! ^^

Heather is one of my favorite video game characters, and the fact that she is based on emotions rather than her looks is a very nice change of pace.

Tuesday: My new favorite day for the escapist. Thanks, Bob (and Jim).

The_root_of_all_evil:
Without anyone to spank his wrist...

I've only heard this as 'slap his wrist'. Interesting.

So much more innuendo I can use with your phrasing.

Princess Rose:

sleeky01:
So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

From a feminist gamer, here's a good example:

image
The original cover of Parasite Eve shows Aya Brea looking determined about something, and Melissa hovering in the background, looking simultaneously sexy (awesome cleavage) and horrifically mutated (mantis arms). It clearly showed that this game was all about two powerful women attempting to kill each other - two women enter, one woman leaves.

On the other hand...

image

Parasite Eve 2 is Aya looking sleepy and showing a lot of leg for... no real reason. She still looks like a cop, which helps us know that she's a cop, and we do see some weird dudes in the background that we'll be murdering during game play, but it doesn't convey the same strong message as PE1.

And finally...

image

The cover to the third game. Aya... is wearing leather and torn jeans. And standing around with little to no expression on her face. No determination, like the first game. No slightly sleepy sadness like the second game. Just... blank. Like she's a blow-up doll or a Japanese love pillow.

It's sad really. A lot of time and effort went into that third cover, but the original "five minutes using screen-caps from cut-scenes and Photoshop" cover looks WAY better. Cheap as the original cover is, it tells the whole story of the game right there on the cover. On the other hand, Third Birthday tells us nothing on the cover - except, perhaps, that Aya's clothing will get torn in a sexy fashion during gameplay. Which it does.

So there you have it - Aya was always sexy, but her portrayal has gotten less interesting even as her graphics have improved - because too much attention is paid to her looking sexy rather than her being awesome.

Pro tip: If your female character is attractive and doing awesome things, then that will MAKE her sexy. Awesomeness makes a character more sexy. Stupid poses... don't.

Ah, 3rd Birthday, probably the most sexist and poorly written game EVER to have come out of Square (written by resident hack Motomu Toriyama no less). Aya had always been sexualized to a degree considering that there was quite a bit of promotional art like her wearing her jacket but not a shirt underneath, one where she was nude but covered in blood, another where Eve was nibbling on her ear (with Aya CLEARLY not enjoying herself), or where she was nude surrounded by...stuff. Even the shower scene in 2 was relatively harmless. T3B...whoo, I can't even BEGIN on where that game drops the ball.

IceStar100:

Paragon Fury:

IceStar100:
Sex sells

I'll use Ashley from Mass Effect. Deep she has beliefs and a history. Nothing really skimpy about any of her outfits.

And she was hated by at least to most vocal people. Being called a bigot because she didn't trust aliens even after the first contact war. The first time we made contact with alien a lot of people got killed and the fact it ruined her family name in the military.

There also the fact he has one part about believing in some kind of God. SHOVING RELIGOUN DOWN OUR THROAT.

Thane who his religion is a major part of his character is awesome it seems.
Go look up ME1 Ash vs ME3.

Simple fact is most gamers are male and don't like strong females.
Might as well as every romance author to write a book that closer to what a real male is. Guess what no one would read it.
The fact is if you want a real life woman go outside if you want one who's a perfect 10 and you would still have a chance with play a video game.

She was hated because of those two reasons, because she was well-written. And Bioware almost certainly intended her to be hated.

Her history and dislike of aliens makes people rage because she comes off as a bigoted, ignorant dolt who has a sore ass because her family got spanked by the Turians in the First Contact War, rather than say the Illusive Man or Miranda who at least seem to have put some logic and thought into their dislike of aliens.

Thane's religion is seen as "awesome" because his comes off as a more reflective, personal philosophy while Ashley gives the very clear impression that her religion is far closer to our modern day "Believe what I say my skydaddy says or I'll hurt you" religions.

I'm going to be honest I had more but I've done this before on gamefaqs so it made me more hateful. Simeple fact is I find those fact BSed. I promise if Ashley looked like she does now people would think she was Aswsome. There a reason in real life hot girls get away with more.

As far as another poster said missing the point. Not really I just know things will not chance becuase they work and why change what sells. Anytime some tries something new it bomb or at best sell only somewhat well.

Even hot chicks have a hard time getting away with the "Believe what I say my skydaddy says or I'll hurt you" vibe.

Well-said, of course another aspect of the issue is also that the impractical costumes do not fit the role the character is supposed to be in, fighting games in particular being notorious in their stupid costume design.

And please, no-one give the "distraction technique" BS for why Mai Shirunai and others dress in lingerie, even in the unlikely event that there's something to that, it would do a fighter no good if they're constantly falling out of their clothes.

All in all, sexuality within an appropriate context is fine, but having it for it's own sake, presenting women only as eye candy instead of credible complex characters and relying on wiki pages to fill in their backstory and motivations is just not on.

Whatever happened to the whole "Empowering" term feminists threw around for years? Did they change the definition to exclude fictional characters? Has it dropped off the radar completely since a certain adult film star started using that term? Or is the "empowering" of sexuality a same-gender exclusivity?

Father Time:
God damnit Bob. Don't ever say something's an exception that proves a rule. Exceptions are evidence against rules.

Yes, but the fact that their IS an exception proves that the rule exists, however mildly flawed. That's what the phrase means - you couldn't have an exception to a rule if the rule doesn't exist.

The point is not that the exception makes the rule stronger - it's that for an exception to the rule to exist, the RULE itself must exist. Thus the fact that there are exceptions proves that the rule does indeed exist.

It's logic.

Aiddon:
Ah, 3rd Birthday, probably the most sexist and poorly written game EVER to have come out of Square (written by resident hack Motomu Toriyama no less). Aya had always been sexualized to a degree considering that there was quite a bit of promotional art like her wearing her jacket but not a shirt underneath, one where she was nude but covered in blood, another where Eve was nibbling on her ear (with Aya CLEARLY not enjoying herself), or where she was nude surrounded by...stuff. Even the shower scene in 2 was relatively harmless. T3B...whoo, I can't even BEGIN on where that game drops the ball.

So true. The clothing-tearing physics (and that it was actually a game mechanic concerning how well your "armor" of jeans and a t-shirt protected you got less as they got torn to ribbons) was in really poor taste.

You can see the decline in Aya's character as the cover poses get less and less evocative. First game, she's as determined as Kratos - and her character is deep and interesting.

Third Birthday, she's vacant, walking fan-service - and her character is flat.

What's more, the gameplay fell along with her character. I still replay PE1 for the really good and unique combat. PE2... less so. Haven't finished Third Birthday - got distracted by other, better games.

NameIsRobertPaulson:
How a character poses is VERY open to interpretation. Morrigan Aensland gives that pose, because she's a succubus, and could kill you seven times before you blink, so she can afford to show off. Cammy has a stronger fighting stance then almost the entire SF roster, there's nothing feminine about that.

By the way, nice use of Marcus Fenix (360) and Nathan Drake (PS3) to cover the Nintendo fan-boyism. Not gonna quiet the crowd though.

Well I forgot about Cammy because I don't play SF but your Morrigan point is very much valid with just saying "She's a succubus" because they are the sexy demon ladies that have sex with men whilst they sleep, she has a right to pose like that! xD

I can't say much for other female characters who go into fights wearing this season's latest strings and odd pieces of armour but there are points about characters looking good in video games much like they do in films. It's just a human mindset to add somebody to something just because they look good. No it's not fair that only women of certain body sizes are included in games but it comes down to the developers asking "If I make this character slightly overweight or with unappealing features, will the players like them still?" And 9/10, yeah they're going to say no.

Still that isn't to say it's appropriate for Ms. Spinal Problems to be bending over that far when it's clearly obvious that they're just doing it to see down their top in that mirror with the pervert standing behind. They should define the characters a little more with their poses like showing they're strong or if they're proud. A little creativity in the sexy game ladies department wouldn't go amiss.

Princess Rose:

Father Time:
God damnit Bob. Don't ever say something's an exception that proves a rule. Exceptions are evidence against rules.

Yes, but the fact that their IS an exception proves that the rule exists, however mildly flawed. That's what the phrase means - you couldn't have an exception to a rule if the rule doesn't exist.

Under that logic anything can be a rule.

For example I can make up a rule that bands don't have girls' names in their song titles.

Now here's a quiz with 99 exceptions to that rule

http://www.sporcle.com/games/g/womentitled_songs

But hey it's the exceptions that prove the rule exists.

JustaGigolo:
I think there are a lot of similarities about the complaints feminists target at video games and porn. "Objectifies women," "creates a false standard of beauty," or "blah blah men are evil."

The problem with their arguments being usually the men in both situations are just as equally used. Not all women are skinny and have Double D's, but not all men are muscular and have 12 inch dicks either. I've seen terribly written female characters in the Dead Or Alive games, but I've also seen just as terribly written male characters in countless macho, manly shooter games. Feminists view those situations with a tunnel vision, only seeing what they want to see, and completely ignore the fact that people on both ends just like seeing beautiful people get used. You could argue it's human nature. Who would really want to see an average looking person fighting aliens?

In a medium, such as gaming, where the majority of the people playing your games like boobs, of course people are going to use boobs to market towards their interest. It doesn't make it a good thing to do, but it works, and profit is pretty much all that matters. Look at all the Fabio romance novels, they're just as bad if not worse than what gaming is doing, but they sell.

Lately I have been noticing better female characters in games. Lt. Mira in Space Marines for example or Xian in Dead Island. Or my favorite example, Chell. I never knew she was female until I messed around with the portals a bit. The game didn't try to drive home the fact she was female, she was just a character.

why cant i "like" posts like this?

Crono1973:

Father Time:

Crono1973:

I don't want to get too far into this for it will get me banned but I will provide an example:

Bashing feminism will not get you banned. Being a jerk or saying that all women/men/whatever are evil will get you into trouble, but it will probably be warnings at first (I'm not accusing you of doing those things just so we're clear).

Crono1973:

- feminists have bitched until the school systems (especially colleges) are completely geared toward teaching girls who learn differently than boys. Boys have little motivation to go to class at all when the teaching methods bore them. The same can happen to games if developers go out of their way to "grease the squeaky wheel" to meet the ever-changing demands of feminists.

I'm not sure if that's what's really happened in schools but that's another debate (one which I'm too ignorant to participate in). Anyway I think that's a legitimate concern for some games but at the same time there are developers who just ignore all the complainers. Rockstar never removed the "solicit prostitutes then kill them to get your money back" option in GTA despite feminists, the media and pretty much every family group giving them shit over it.

I think there will always be developers who cater to gamers who ... don't have the same tastes as feminists so I don't think it will ever be destroyed.

Discussing gender issues at all is a touchy topic and I know not to stick more than a toe in the water.

I am done here, just wanted to put some thoughts out there for people to poke holes in, laugh at or consider.

Well thank you for contributing and explaining yourself.

I can't blame you for not wanting to discuss this further. After I posted this part of my brain told me "you're getting into another gender issues debate, what's wrong with you?"

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here