The Big Picture: Gender Games

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bob was right on the money about Mai. i was interested about her as so i looked her up, and found her to be a likeable character. as for her outfit, while the character dresses that way deliberately to distract males, while i find that method ingenious and would probably be very effective. The problem there is that, the game developers probably designed her that way, not for having character with a smart strategy but as Bob said, for male players.

awdrifter:
Let feminists have their panties in a bunch, as long as we buy the games we like, devs will keep making them. There are less games targeted at female because there are less female gamers. If you want devs to make games that you like (I don't really know what a feminist would like, lol), then start playing and buying more games. This reminds me of the Mass Effect sex scene scandal and the hot coffee mod scandal. These are just feminists sticking their heads into something that other people enjoy.

Forty-two percent of all players are women and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.

Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent).

full study (2011) available here: http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf

....why do I feel like I JUST POSTED THIS?

The issue isn't that women aren't playing games - they are. Part of the problem is that they aren't involved in the creation and development process (moar statistics here: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-08-05/business/sc-biz-0806-women-gamers-20100805_1_international-game-developers-association-game-development-gaming-world )

vortexgods:
Wow, I wrote a long post, I think it would be wrong to inflict it on this forum without spoiler tags. It's a long response, but I felt it was warranted:

In closing...

I have the same thoughts about the matter. It's really hard to discuss this when there's a cultural difference aspect standing right there to muddy up everything. Now if this was based around a Western company doing this, then they probably deserve the amount of scorn their way for dressing up female characters scantily for nothing more than sex appeal.

Also, that's a mighty fine closing. I couldn't help but play that song while reading your post, made it much more festive.

Not a very convincing argument. Bobs way to selective with his material.

Okay, I disagree with Bob using Nariko in this video. Yes, she is a beautiful woman and her clothes may not be the best things you could wear in a sword fight, but I didn't ever think of her as a sex symbol. I always saw her as a female Kratos (who doesn't wear much himself) with a soul. That is, I always saw her as a bad-ass warrior that could and would easily tear you limb from limb, but she still had those that she wanted to protect, like Kai (who was my favorite character in the game). I see Nariko as a strong woman first and foremost. Maybe I'm alone in this.

at 4:21 who is that?

OT: The characters in Dead Island make for good female characters because neither are hot and they are just as capable as the men.

That Chicago Trib article made me think a bit...

The issue, as I see it, is that we don't have enough games being created by women. It isn't just about character portrayal, hetero-normativity or target audience, it's about who is making games. Bob made an impassioned and, for the most part, accurate point but he missed what I believe the fundamental problem.

The industry could do a much better job of attracting female game creators; statistically, they would benefit from it as the market demographics move toward the 50-50 mark. Other historically male-dominated sectors (science, architecture, engineering, politics, law, medicine... almost everything else besides teaching) have pushed to be gender-equal and I personally think we've benefited from it.

So...MOAR WIMMIN DVLPERZ PLZ!!!

Never gave much thought to the idea that this argument was more or less helping the industry avoid dealing with a problem. From what I can see the video game industry is very content in watching two kinds of people argue as long as the gamers will defend the industry rather then resolve the issue.

So if the gamer community and feminist community stop arguing, come to some kind of resolve, will the industry follow? The only way I'm seeing change from the industry is if consumers change their mind set to where it effects their purchase preference. You know, "Your choice is your voice" kind of slogan? Really hoping that this issue can be resolved so that it changes the industry.

Paragon Fury:

IceStar100:
Sex sells

I'll use Ashley from Mass Effect. Deep she has beliefs and a history. Nothing really skimpy about any of her outfits.

And she was hated by at least to most vocal people. Being called a bigot because she didn't trust aliens even after the first contact war. The first time we made contact with alien a lot of people got killed and the fact it ruined her family name in the military.

There also the fact he has one part about believing in some kind of God. SHOVING RELIGOUN DOWN OUR THROAT.

Thane who his religion is a major part of his character is awesome it seems.
Go look up ME1 Ash vs ME3.

Simple fact is most gamers are male and don't like strong females.
Might as well as every romance author to write a book that closer to what a real male is. Guess what no one would read it.
The fact is if you want a real life woman go outside if you want one who's a perfect 10 and you would still have a chance with play a video game.

She was hated because of those two reasons, because she was well-written. And Bioware almost certainly intended her to be hated.

Her history and dislike of aliens makes people rage because she comes off as a bigoted, ignorant dolt who has a sore ass because her family got spanked by the Turians in the First Contact War, rather than say the Illusive Man or Miranda who at least seem to have put some logic and thought into their dislike of aliens.

Thane's religion is seen as "awesome" because his comes off as a more reflective, personal philosophy while Ashley gives the very clear impression that her religion is far closer to our modern day "Believe what I say my skydaddy says or I'll hurt you" religions.

Considering how the Turians opened fired during first contact without warning or provocation, I can see why some people would not be too trusting of them.

Unfortunately since the Turians were the first alien race humans encountered some of that mistrust carries over. Also, that part about her family getting blacklisted is only part of her reasoning for distrusting aliens. She explains that humanity needs to be able to stand on its own in case any of the other alien races should abandon them or even turn on them, which is basically the same reasoning Miranda and the Illusive man give. While I do think Ashley should lighten up a bit she comes off as being distrustful rather than a hateful bigot(she dislikes Terra Firma and Cerberus, people who are suppose to be more anti-alien)and her reasons for doing so are kinda understandable. I actually find it funny that some people see her as the equivalent of a religious zealot despite the fact she rarely ever brings up the subject or even mentions it(like maybe three times).

scarab7:

So if the gamer community and feminist community stop arguing, come to some kind of resolve, will the industry follow? The only way I'm seeing change from the industry is if consumers change their mind set to where it effects their purchase preference.

Done and done. Solid point, but what about that really good, well-written game that is terribly, terribly misogynistic?

Written arguments and criticism are more worthwhile than you might think. As the level of conversation surrounding video games continually elevates (scholarly journals, anyone? http://game.itu.dk), game developers more or less "naturally" follow suit. Critics of other entertainment and artistic forms have amassed a tremendous amount of leverage based on their subjective critiques of artistic merit and cultural value; games are too rarely addressed on these terms.

So the arguments may get tedious at times - just like the "are games art?" arguments. But they're important.

If these things aren't worth thinking about, then video games really are just a waste of time.

cbert:

awdrifter:
Let feminists have their panties in a bunch, as long as we buy the games we like, devs will keep making them. There are less games targeted at female because there are less female gamers. If you want devs to make games that you like (I don't really know what a feminist would like, lol), then start playing and buying more games. This reminds me of the Mass Effect sex scene scandal and the hot coffee mod scandal. These are just feminists sticking their heads into something that other people enjoy.

Forty-two percent of all players are women and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.

Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent).

full study (2011) available here: http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf

....why do I feel like I JUST POSTED THIS?

The issue isn't that women aren't playing games - they are. Part of the problem is that they aren't involved in the creation and development process (moar statistics here: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-08-05/business/sc-biz-0806-women-gamers-20100805_1_international-game-developers-association-game-development-gaming-world )

Mmm... There are different types of games. Do men and women all play the same types of games equally, or do the more sexist games actually have a larger male demographic? I think people are forgetting that some games can be aimed at women, and some aimed at men. Keeping this in mind the marketing departments probably adjust content accordingly.

We're talking about money here. A capitalist system will automatically adjust based upon the desires of its consumer base, so I kind of have a hard time believing that it's some oppressive male regime. The publishers are in it to make money, not to keep women down. If their marketing departments have miscalculated then someone will eventually make a game that gets it right, and that company will become more successful, thus fixing the problem. If women really are offended by the games they buy then they should boycott them.

In a capitalist system your money is your vote. If small groups protest something for its insensitivity but that thing still makes money, then it isn't going to change. The only way that there aren't going to be games like DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball is if there isn't a market for it. But I don't think women make up the market for those types of games in the first place, so they can't really stop them. As long as there are horny teenage boys out there that are willing to spend $60 on bouncing virtual mammaries, then someone is going to make that game I'm afraid.

Now, does anyone REALLY think that they can effect a level of social change to the point that teenage boys will no longer be horny and stupid? Good luck with THAT. Lulz. Is it really that big of a deal? I have a hard time buying the idea that it's just video games and other media that cause men to view women as sex objects. It's a pretty culturally and genetically ingrained thing, especially for those who don't live a life of the mind. How can someone respect a woman for her mind when they don't even use their own? Rubes will be rubes, I'm afraid. Yes, I realize that I'm an elitist and I have my reasons, so don't point it out as if it's an argument.

Fiz_The_Toaster:

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

coates32:

Fiz_The_Toaster:

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

SWEET!!

I will say when I played El Shaddai I couldn't help but make comparisons to 3rd Birthday when I saw that mechanic, and thought El Shaddai did it better....

ReiverCorrupter:

Mmm... There are different types of games. Do men and women all play the same types of games equally, or do the more sexist games actually have a larger male demographic. I think people are forgetting that some games can be aimed at women, and some aimed at men. Keeping this in mind the marketing departments probably adjust content accordingly.

We're talking about money here. A capitalist system will automatically adjust based upon the desires of its consumer base, so I kind of have a hard time believing that it's some oppressive male regime. The publishers are in it to make money, not keep women down. If their marketing departments have miscalculated then someone will eventually make a game that gets it right, and that company will become more successful, thus fixing the problem. If women really are offended by the games they buy then they should boycott them.

In a capitalist system your money is your vote. If small groups protest something for its insensitivity but that thing still makes money, then it isn't going to change. The only way that there aren't going to be games like DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball is if there isn't a market for it. But I don't think women make up the market for those types of games in the first place, so they can't really stop them. As long as there are horny teenage boys out there that are willing to spend $60 on bouncing virtual mammaries, then someone is going to make that game I'm afraid.

Now, does anyone REALLY think that they can effect a level of social change to the point that teenage boys will no longer be horny and stupid? Good luck with THAT. Lulz. Is it really that big of a deal? I have a hard time buying the idea that it's just video games and other media that cause men to view women as sex objects. It's a pretty culturally and genetically ingrained thing, especially for those who don't live a life of the mind. How can someone respect a woman for her mind when they don't even use their own? Rubes will be rubes, I'm afraid. Yes, I realize that I'm an elitist and I have my reasons, so don't point it out as if it's an argument.

I would agree with the "money is your vote." Often, this is why I don't buy triple-A titles. The indie and art game scene has none of this "feminist problem;" feminists are instead seen as assets, and feminist criticism is useful.

Women might not purchase as many copies of extreme tits volleyball, but the point is moot. We appear to have a lack of Trip-A titles marketed towards a good 42% (and growing) of the market share. That's not just misogynistic, that's bad business.

Publishers may be in it to make money, but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously.

EDIT: There remains the underlying problem of the lack of female game creators, which is far, far less than the number of female gamers. There isn't so much of a "male conspiracy" as there is a serious sausage fest in the dev departments.

I haven't thought of that way, I originally thought that feminist yell for the fact that girl charters are dressed to look "sexy" but since you show the comparison between poses from the "I got this" looks from the males and "look at me" looks from the female. Even I think right now some games does over sexualise and value more to games that shows female characters as characters to a story (Examples: Alyx Vance, Jade) and not "LOOK! BOOBIES" but also feminist need to be more clearer and explain at the level of the (stupid, whiny) gamer.
Thank you Bob for another great video.

P.S. Yay, Ponies!

Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

That is an excellent point you've made, Bob.

Unfortunately, most arguments coming from feminist gamers seem to be more along the lines of "Why aren't there moar women in games??", rather than "Why don't women in games have more character?"
The former isn't going to get us anywhere, and it will only lead to having tacked-on female leads, and games pandering to the female demographic. The latter is what truly needs to change in the industry, and every gamer, male or female, will benefit from it.

Fiz_The_Toaster:

coates32:

Fiz_The_Toaster:

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

SWEET!!

I will say when I played El Shaddai I couldn't help but make comparisons to 3rd Birthday when I saw that mechanic, and thought El Shaddai did it better....

Yeah, I have to agree with you about El Shaddai doing that better, mainly because that guy's paints don't get shredded to shorts (even if it did, I would found it very difficult to be offended). I'm still not sure if I would enjoy 3rd Birthday, due to the games other mechanics.

And to MovieBob's point, I never thought of it that way but I agree with him about there needs to be more variety on of female characters (especially protagonists) expression of body language.

Cesilius:
Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

How come whenever this topic comes out everyone points to the Dead or Alive series sure they had the volley ball games and that didn't help but overall the focus was the fighting which shouldn't be faulted by the character designs

On a similar note, this is a really good almost identically themed piece dealing with comics (this weeks huge comics controversy concerning DC's Starfire and Batman/Catwoman), from the viewpoint of a 7 year old girl. It's amazing how she is able to articulate that same thing that it isn't so much the costume or look as the posing and context.

http://io9.com/5844355/a-7+year+old-girl-responds-to-dc-comics-sexed+up-reboot-of-starfire

or

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/

DSD12:
How come whenever this topic comes out everyone points to the Dead or Alive series sure they had the volley ball games and that didn't help but overall the focus was the fighting which shouldn't be faulted by the character designs

"they're just tacked on 'extra' games that took thousands of hours of development time and were sold separately at full price but overall the focus was on beating up hot ninjas with super boob physics so the series isn't bad"

and trolling stops... now.

Cesilius:
The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

And that's why I can legally buy smack and inject it into my foreskin while jacking off to child porn! God bless you almighty dollar![1]

Bob, great episode. You neatly sidestepped the popular obsession with anti-pornography which seems to be all anyone knows or remembers about feminist media criticism, and approached the issue in a way I really wasn't expecting.

People too often forget the extent to which sex positivism is a feminist intervention. It's nice to see that occasionally people who aren't gender scholars or students themselves still remember this.

[1] I'm not actually making a point here, but seriously, claiming that media attitudes cannot be changed because that's just economics doesn't really cut it for me.. I'm sure people would have once said the same thing about blackface.

faefrost:
On a similar note, this is a really good almost identically themed piece dealing with comics (this weeks huge comics controversy concerning DC's Starfire and Batman/Catwoman), from the viewpoint of a 7 year old girl. It's amazing how she is able to articulate that same thing that it isn't so much the costume or look as the posing and context.

http://io9.com/5844355/a-7+year+old-girl-responds-to-dc-comics-sexed+up-reboot-of-starfire

or

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/

Awesome links. Thanks for that.

cbert:

Cesilius:
Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

What amazes me about both the gaming and the comics industries is somehow they missed the memo that told them that when done right, "sex really sells to women!!!" But when done wrong it drives them away in droves. Just look at any magazine targeted at women. Cosmo grossly outsells almost anything. And it's pure sex and sexy women. Has anyoen ever heard of a show called "Sex and the City"? Or how about all of those movies about sparkly vampires? It's all SEX!!! If they just learned to shift the context just a hair (or even give some of it just the smallest iota of context to begin with) they would have a license to print money to both sexes. You can keep the sexy in. Just make it inteligent sexy. (and no I don't mean "sexy librarian porn"!) (well ok I wouldn't say no to sexy librarian porn... just not in this context)

cbert:

Cesilius:
Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

In this post, someone avoiding all points brought up and trying to sound like they know what they are talking about.

I will try and educate you (though it may be difficult). "sex" is not just the physical act, you could try using a dictionary (big book with lots of words) and find out that the term also describes a differnece in gender and "the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct." What ever form of currency you want, i know you are just being an ass but it really isn't that funny. I never once said video games weren't worth talking about intellectually, so you must have read the wrong post or you are as blind as you are ignorant. Yes video games are an art just as movies and books are. You can't tell me that all devolpers are out there to make a difference though, alot are out to make a dollar just like many films and books are. "but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously." Implying all sexual content is immature and not art? i think you may need to grow up first before telling others to.

Congrats on catching a spelling error though, you must feel so proud

castlewise:
So your saying that the underlying problem is that games are generally made specifically for guys, with no regard for a female audience? I can't say I disagree. I was reading something similar about TV shows and movies the other day. Someone was saying that the prevailing notion was that girls would watch "guy" shows, but guys wouldn't watch "girl" shows. As a result everyone defaults to making movies, shows, whatever with male leads and the like. Its probably even worse with games because producers may assume that there aren't even any girls to sell games to (something patently untrue, but whatever).

I have to disagree there, but I can see how you've come to that conclusion.
I'm assuming you're a heterosexual male (such as myself), and If you are not, I apologize. You don't notice this because you're a male, and I didn't notice it myself until someone else brought it up. Women aren't the only sex symbols in these games, we just don't notice the males because we don't look for such a thing. For a moment, put on a femal perspective, and look at these characters:
image

image

image

These are basically the male equivalent of the female characters that Bob speaks of, and while he's right on the whole "poses" thing, these hyper-masculine men are counterparts to the hyper-sexualized women seen in everything ever. Maybe since we can see more of the character in these males, ignoring any sexualization, then maybe women can more easily tell things about female characters.

Fiz_The_Toaster:

vortexgods:
Wow, I wrote a long post, I think it would be wrong to inflict it on this forum without spoiler tags. It's a long response, but I felt it was warranted:

In closing...

I have the same thoughts about the matter. It's really hard to discuss this when there's a cultural difference aspect standing right there to muddy up everything. Now if this was based around a Western company doing this, then they probably deserve the amount of scorn their way for dressing up female characters scantily for nothing more than sex appeal.

Also, that's a mighty fine closing. I couldn't help but play that song while reading your post, made it much more festive.

I was thinking about the Simpson's episode where Marge instructs Homer to teach Bart that Princess Kashmir is a real person with feelings after he takes a picture of Homer dancing with her at a co-workers bachelor party :-)

Every time I get in this argument I remember this Voltaire quote.
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God has granted it."

coates32:

Fiz_The_Toaster:

coates32:

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

SWEET!!

I will say when I played El Shaddai I couldn't help but make comparisons to 3rd Birthday when I saw that mechanic, and thought El Shaddai did it better....

Yeah, I have to agree with you about El Shaddai doing that better, mainly because that guy's paints don't get shredded to shorts (even if it did, I would found it very difficult to be offended). I'm still not sure if I would enjoy 3rd Birthday, due to the games other mechanics.

And to MovieBob's point, I never thought of it that way but I agree with him about there needs to be more variety on of female characters (especially protagonists) expression of body language.

3rd Birthday's mechanics takes getting used to, I know it took me a while to get used to them before I was comfortable with them.

Yeah, I will say that Western game companies do pose their female characters better and you can tell a lot about their personalities with how they pose better than Japanese female characters. I know there are some exceptions, but fighting games seem to be the worst offender when it comes to this, and I will never understand why that is.

Cesilius:

cbert:

Cesilius:
Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

In this post, someone avoiding all points brought up and trying to sound like they know what they are talking about.

I will try and educate you (though it may be difficult). "sex" is not just the physical act, you could try using a dictionary (big book with lots of words) and find out that the term also describes a differnece in gender and "the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct." What ever form of currency you want, i know you are just being an ass but it really isn't that funny. I never once said video games weren't worth talking about intellectually, so you must have read the wrong post or you are as blind as you are ignorant. Yes video games are an art just as movies and books are. You can't tell me that all devolpers are out there to make a difference though, alot are out to make a dollar just like many films and books are. "but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously." Implying all sexual content is immature and not art? i think you may need to grow up first before telling others to.

Congrats on catching a spelling error though, you must feel so proud

I don't feel proud about catching the spelling error, but the unintentional irony of the rest of your post certainly made me smile.

I also didn't imply that all sexual content is immature or not-art; see the link I provided (again, very NSFW).

I do hope you develop a sense of humor some day.

Regarding market forces: I agree, but you shouldn't underestimate the power of criticism in influencing consumer choices. I also don't think the dialogue is "played out;" it's necessary in a medium that considers itself an art form.

vortexgods:

Fiz_The_Toaster:

vortexgods:
Wow, I wrote a long post, I think it would be wrong to inflict it on this forum without spoiler tags. It's a long response, but I felt it was warranted:

In closing...

I have the same thoughts about the matter. It's really hard to discuss this when there's a cultural difference aspect standing right there to muddy up everything. Now if this was based around a Western company doing this, then they probably deserve the amount of scorn their way for dressing up female characters scantily for nothing more than sex appeal.

Also, that's a mighty fine closing. I couldn't help but play that song while reading your post, made it much more festive.

I was thinking about the Simpson's episode where Marge instructs Homer to teach Bart that Princess Kashmir is a real person with feelings after he takes a picture of Homer dancing with her at a co-workers bachelor party :-)

I never thought of that, but now it makes perfect sense. And I will forever think of that episode when I hear that song.

Escapist messed up sorry

DSD12:
What makes you think i am trolling i giving my opinion and just saying I am trolling just because you disagree with me I think that's is pretty stupid

cbert:

DSD12:
How come whenever this topic comes out everyone points to the Dead or Alive series sure they had the volley ball games and that didn't help but overall the focus was the fighting which shouldn't be faulted by the character designs

"they're just tacked on 'extra' games that took thousands of hours of development time and were sold separately at full price but overall the focus was on beating up hot ninjas with super boob physics so the series isn't bad"

and trolling stops... now.

What makes you think i am trolling i giving my opinion and just saying I am trolling just because you disagree with me I think that's is pretty stupid

cbert:

Cesilius:

cbert:

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

In this post, someone avoiding all points brought up and trying to sound like they know what they are talking about.

I will try and educate you (though it may be difficult). "sex" is not just the physical act, you could try using a dictionary (big book with lots of words) and find out that the term also describes a differnece in gender and "the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct." What ever form of currency you want, i know you are just being an ass but it really isn't that funny. I never once said video games weren't worth talking about intellectually, so you must have read the wrong post or you are as blind as you are ignorant. Yes video games are an art just as movies and books are. You can't tell me that all devolpers are out there to make a difference though, alot are out to make a dollar just like many films and books are. "but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously." Implying all sexual content is immature and not art? i think you may need to grow up first before telling others to.

Congrats on catching a spelling error though, you must feel so proud

I don't feel proud about catching the spelling error, but the unintentional irony of the rest of your post certainly made me smile.

I also didn't imply that all sexual content is immature or not-art; see the link I provided (again, very NSFW).

I do hope you develop a sense of humor some day.

I'm sorry if i sounded like an ass, i read some of your earlier posts and you make some good points, granted i still think you are missing the main point of why these games are made by a country mile.

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