Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine

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MrPeanut:

erttheking:
What really makes me crap my pants is that somewhere I read that there were other methods of FTL that the Imperium looked at, and the Warp was considered the safest. I really don't want to think about that too much, that the Warp is viewed as a preferably alternative to something. Unless you're the Tau, if you use the Warp to travel things could very easily end badly.

The Necron ships travel with near instant non-warp FTL drives across the galaxy but I doubt they would be eager to share.

I recall the Adectus Mechanicus trying to get into a tomb world once, but I think it was one of those, "get a billon people killed" days and I doubt it worked. Not to mention with the "Kill all organics" thing that they've got going on along with them completly disapearing after every, fight, that is pretty unlikely. Not to mention they're all being controled by a C'tan, which is kind of cheating.

dont get trolled by yahtzee

ACman:

Longshot:

ACman:

Military/paramilitary/intelligence and associated services then. The interesting bit is the Adeptus Administratum who seem to control planets and military. and in the back-ground even they sound like inhuman monks.

Supposedly this system of governance has been going controlling the entire human galaxy for 10,000 years; which sounds like a situation where you'd have sections of the administratum fall under the control of local princes al la europe after the Roman Empire. But no, the empire is stable despite constant war.

Hence I think it would be more interesting for the empire to fragment. Hence my previous Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox analogy.

The Administratum is also everything civil matters. Infrastructure, civil services, health care that sort of thing. It's a really broad umbrella, and another reason why your chart isn't that good at describing how the society functions.

For an example, the military branch of the administratum is a section in itself, called the munitorium. While I concede war and a militaristic mindset is weaved closely into the societys structure, it is a necessity born out of constant conflict. On any number of fronts.

The empire can't fragment. If it were ever to cease functioning as it does now, humanity would perish. Which would not make it very interesting at all, since it would mean the end of the setting.

Yes. There is only war. Not as in every planet is constantly engulfed in strife, but humanity as a whole is at constant conflict, and it is barely holding. If it were to become divisioned, if the warmachine was not fed, it would falter in its defense. And if the public was not constantly scrutinized for signs of heresy, it would crumble from within. Not because not being a fervant churchgoer is a bad thing, but because chaos must be held at bay at all costs.

Who say's that humanity would perish? The Imperium's propaganda?

If you defy the Imperium you will fall to Chaos (Ie. go to hell.): Theocratic
If we don't work together for the Imperium the imperium will fall: Fascism

It's all propaganda to support these two systems. Two types of government that I and I imagine people in the future would buck against or would be corrupt enough that people would carve out domains of their own. And I said fragment. Not fall apart. Did Europe stop working just because the Roman Empire fell? No. They became a system of feudal nationstates that paid homage to the former imperial power the papacy.You cannot tell me that a galaxywide inefficient theocratic empire wouldn't fracture.

The setting would be more interesting and dynamic if these problems or the tensions that lead to these problems were highlighted but most of the back story focuses on how space-marine chapters were formed and how they behave. And I'm with Yahtzee. Sapce Marines are boring sexless monks devoid of humanity. Interesting as part of a setting but so over emphasized that the everything else falls into the background.

Edit: I don't hate the setting just thing that the actual humanity could be a dynamic and colorful as the superhumans that inhabit it.

No, that's pretty much fact. The thing is, if chaos is not kept properly in check, it will swallow up the whole galaxy. Humanity is barely holding as it is now, and that' thanks to the system.

For one thing: How does a fractured Imperium maintain the Imperial Guard? How can the Inquisition operate, and with what authority? Where does the Mechanicum ship its manufactured arms, and what does it do with the titan legions?

Of course, measures can be taken to maintain these forces, The Guard can be something akin to the UN or Nato forces, the Inquisition a kind of Interpol, the Mechanicum can be independant manufacturers selling their weapons. The problem is that it would make everything function much less smoothly. Politics would interfere with the protection of the imperium, noone would be able to do their job properly. Humanity would be destroyed, as noone would be able to properly organize, for an example, the defense against Hive Fleet Leviathan, by Inquisitor Kryptman. Imagine the UN trying to solve that situation, and having to take those hard decisions, for an example, virus bombing an entire imperial planet out of necessity. I can see where you are coming from, but it is not possible in the setting. If you would prefer such a setting, fair enough, but its not possible to change the W40k to one such, without making major changes to EVERYTHING, all factions, and the underlying lore. You would have something very much not 40k.

As for humanity not being varied and colourful... it IS. While the government that connects systems may be a strict, unchanging, dystopian fascist oppressor, individual planets have individual cultures. Reading the books will show that. Hell, you can even see it in the Wargame itself. Tallarns differ vastly from Cadians differ vastly from Valhallans.

EDIT: I just reread your post to add something: Chaos and the threat it poses is not imperial propaganda. It's very, very real. Same goes for the xenos. It's not propaganda that the Necrons are awakening, that we've only yet seen scouting parties of the real Tyranid Hivefleet, that the Tau have advanced past humanity in terms of tech, that the Orks are an unstoppable destructive force that could slaughter everything if they worked together, etc. In fact, it is not used for propaganda at all, mostly being kept a secret as much as possible. While the imperium utilizes propaganda, the threats that beset them are very much real.

Longshot:

ACman:

Longshot:

The Administratum is also everything civil matters. Infrastructure, civil services, health care that sort of thing. It's a really broad umbrella, and another reason why your chart isn't that good at describing how the society functions.

For an example, the military branch of the administratum is a section in itself, called the munitorium. While I concede war and a militaristic mindset is weaved closely into the societys structure, it is a necessity born out of constant conflict. On any number of fronts.

The empire can't fragment. If it were ever to cease functioning as it does now, humanity would perish. Which would not make it very interesting at all, since it would mean the end of the setting.

Yes. There is only war. Not as in every planet is constantly engulfed in strife, but humanity as a whole is at constant conflict, and it is barely holding. If it were to become divisioned, if the warmachine was not fed, it would falter in its defense. And if the public was not constantly scrutinized for signs of heresy, it would crumble from within. Not because not being a fervant churchgoer is a bad thing, but because chaos must be held at bay at all costs.

Who say's that humanity would perish? The Imperium's propaganda?

If you defy the Imperium you will fall to Chaos (Ie. go to hell.): Theocratic
If we don't work together for the Imperium the imperium will fall: Fascism

It's all propaganda to support these two systems. Two types of government that I and I imagine people in the future would buck against or would be corrupt enough that people would carve out domains of their own. And I said fragment. Not fall apart. Did Europe stop working just because the Roman Empire fell? No. They became a system of feudal nationstates that paid homage to the former imperial power the papacy.You cannot tell me that a galaxywide inefficient theocratic empire wouldn't fracture.

The setting would be more interesting and dynamic if these problems or the tensions that lead to these problems were highlighted but most of the back story focuses on how space-marine chapters were formed and how they behave. And I'm with Yahtzee. Sapce Marines are boring sexless monks devoid of humanity. Interesting as part of a setting but so over emphasized that the everything else falls into the background.

Edit: I don't hate the setting just thing that the actual humanity could be a dynamic and colorful as the superhumans that inhabit it.

No, that's pretty much fact. The thing is, if chaos is not kept properly in check, it will swallow up the whole galaxy. Humanity is barely holding as it is now, and that' thanks to the system.

For one thing: How does a fractured Imperium maintain the Imperial Guard? How can the Inquisition operate, and with what authority? Where does the Mechanicum ship its manufactured arms, and what does it do with the titan legions?

Of course, measures can be taken to maintain these forces, The Guard can be something akin to the UN or Nato forces, the Inquisition a kind of Interpol, the Mechanicum can be independant manufacturers selling their weapons. The problem is that it would make everything function much less smoothly. Politics would interfere with the protection of the imperium, noone would be able to do their job properly. Humanity would be destroyed, as noone would be able to properly organize, for an example, the defense against Hive Fleet Leviathan, by Inquisitor Kryptman. Imagine the UN trying to solve that situation, and having to take those hard decisions, for an example, virus bombing an entire imperial planet out of necessity. I can see where you are coming from, but it is not possible in the setting. If you would prefer such a setting, fair enough, but its not possible to change the W40k to one such, without making major changes to EVERYTHING, all factions, and the underlying lore. You would have something very much not 40k.

As for humanity not being varied and colourful... it IS. While the government that connects systems may be a strict, unchanging, dystopian fascist oppressor, individual planets have individual cultures. Reading the books will show that. Hell, you can even see it in the Wargame itself. Tallarns differ vastly from Cadians differ vastly from Valhallans.

EDIT: I just reread your post to add something: Chaos and the threat it poses is not imperial propaganda. It's very, very real. Same goes for the xenos. It's not propaganda that the Necrons are awakening, that we've only yet seen scouting parties of the real Tyranid Hivefleet, that the Tau have advanced past humanity in terms of tech, that the Orks are an unstoppable destructive force that could slaughter everything if they worked together, etc. In fact, it is not used for propaganda at all, mostly being kept a secret as much as possible. While the imperium utilizes propaganda, the threats that beset them are very much real.

But none of these societies interact with each other.

Except through war.

Or through nasty totalitarian government.

ACman:

Longshot:

ACman:

Who say's that humanity would perish? The Imperium's propaganda?

If you defy the Imperium you will fall to Chaos (Ie. go to hell.): Theocratic
If we don't work together for the Imperium the imperium will fall: Fascism

It's all propaganda to support these two systems. Two types of government that I and I imagine people in the future would buck against or would be corrupt enough that people would carve out domains of their own. And I said fragment. Not fall apart. Did Europe stop working just because the Roman Empire fell? No. They became a system of feudal nationstates that paid homage to the former imperial power the papacy.You cannot tell me that a galaxywide inefficient theocratic empire wouldn't fracture.

The setting would be more interesting and dynamic if these problems or the tensions that lead to these problems were highlighted but most of the back story focuses on how space-marine chapters were formed and how they behave. And I'm with Yahtzee. Sapce Marines are boring sexless monks devoid of humanity. Interesting as part of a setting but so over emphasized that the everything else falls into the background.

Edit: I don't hate the setting just thing that the actual humanity could be a dynamic and colorful as the superhumans that inhabit it.

No, that's pretty much fact. The thing is, if chaos is not kept properly in check, it will swallow up the whole galaxy. Humanity is barely holding as it is now, and that' thanks to the system.

For one thing: How does a fractured Imperium maintain the Imperial Guard? How can the Inquisition operate, and with what authority? Where does the Mechanicum ship its manufactured arms, and what does it do with the titan legions?

Of course, measures can be taken to maintain these forces, The Guard can be something akin to the UN or Nato forces, the Inquisition a kind of Interpol, the Mechanicum can be independant manufacturers selling their weapons. The problem is that it would make everything function much less smoothly. Politics would interfere with the protection of the imperium, noone would be able to do their job properly. Humanity would be destroyed, as noone would be able to properly organize, for an example, the defense against Hive Fleet Leviathan, by Inquisitor Kryptman. Imagine the UN trying to solve that situation, and having to take those hard decisions, for an example, virus bombing an entire imperial planet out of necessity. I can see where you are coming from, but it is not possible in the setting. If you would prefer such a setting, fair enough, but its not possible to change the W40k to one such, without making major changes to EVERYTHING, all factions, and the underlying lore. You would have something very much not 40k.

As for humanity not being varied and colourful... it IS. While the government that connects systems may be a strict, unchanging, dystopian fascist oppressor, individual planets have individual cultures. Reading the books will show that. Hell, you can even see it in the Wargame itself. Tallarns differ vastly from Cadians differ vastly from Valhallans.

EDIT: I just reread your post to add something: Chaos and the threat it poses is not imperial propaganda. It's very, very real. Same goes for the xenos. It's not propaganda that the Necrons are awakening, that we've only yet seen scouting parties of the real Tyranid Hivefleet, that the Tau have advanced past humanity in terms of tech, that the Orks are an unstoppable destructive force that could slaughter everything if they worked together, etc. In fact, it is not used for propaganda at all, mostly being kept a secret as much as possible. While the imperium utilizes propaganda, the threats that beset them are very much real.

But none of these societies interact with each other.

Except through war.

Or through nasty totalitarian government.

I don't really give a toss what types of hat the populace wears. The political class is what interests me an they seem to be horrible religious types.

I'm not saying that horrible religious types shouldn't be present but some alternatives are nice.

And as for the Chaos stuff. Most of that information come from heavily redacted imperium documents. Who's to say they not making that shit up?

TBH IMO i am a W40K fanboy to the point i all but boycott SC2 but i dont think yahtzee so much as did an injustice towards the backstory he just said what he saw in the game and has already in a few reviews mentioned he is not a fan of the 40k universe if it wasnt for the fact that Dawn of war 2 and personal interest in the grim dark future i wouldnt have a damn clue based on space marine alone, it is a little silly that hes gone to highlight chainswords and raging roids and battle armour as a bad thing since hes a clear advocate of the old school shooter but then again space marine does kinda come across as warhammer 40k: gears of war....in the sense of limited weapons and the whole melee weapons are over exaggerated to do more fan service than make the game legitimately fun. If THQ make a sequel which they proberly will because W40k is guaranteed money for them, they should take out the limited amount of hardware you can carry and the needing to execute for health and keep the melee just polish it off abit more, they could be on to a real melee/shooter winner......and of course no regenerating health -.-

ACman:

ACman:

But none of these societies interact with each other.

Except through war.

Or through nasty totalitarian government.

I don't really give a toss what types of hat the populace wears. The political class is what interests me an they seem to be horrible religious types.

I'm not saying that horrible religious types shouldn't be present but some alternatives are nice.

And as for the Chaos stuff. Most of that information come from heavily redacted imperium documents. Who's to say they not making that shit up?

They interact plenty. Trade, vacationing, etc.

Not at all. Sure, some of them are religious, but you should compare it to american politicians. They have to show piety outwards, but they are not zealots. Are the figureheads of the ecclesiarchy highly religious? Yes. Are the administrative workers and the ruling politicians? No.

PLanetary Governors are not typically fervent believers. I mean, they can be, but no different from how normal people can be christians, but mostly in upbringing.

The lore? It's not like all of W40k are seen from the perspective of humans, you know... There is really nothing to discuss here. You might as well argue that the emperor didn't build the death star, and everything we saw in the Star Wars movies were just propaganda. I don't know where you are going with this, but there's really no doubt here. Chaos is real, and it's hella dangerous.

Longshot:

ACman:

ACman:

But none of these societies interact with each other.

Except through war.

Or through nasty totalitarian government.

I don't really give a toss what types of hat the populace wears. The political class is what interests me an they seem to be horrible religious types.

I'm not saying that horrible religious types shouldn't be present but some alternatives are nice.

And as for the Chaos stuff. Most of that information come from heavily redacted imperium documents. Who's to say they not making that shit up?

They interact plenty. Trade, vacationing, etc.

Not at all. Sure, some of them are religious, but you should compare it to american politicians. They have to show piety outwards, but they are not zealots. Are the figureheads of the ecclesiarchy highly religious? Yes. Are the administrative workers and the ruling politicians? No.

PLanetary Governors are not typically fervent believers. I mean, they can be, but no different from how normal people can be christians, but mostly in upbringing.

The lore? It's not like all of W40k are seen from the perspective of humans, you know... There is really nothing to discuss here. You might as well argue that the emperor didn't build the death star, and everything we saw in the Star Wars movies were just propaganda. I don't know where you are going with this, but there's really no doubt here. Chaos is real, and it's hella dangerous.

Maybe for people in Sementum Obscurus.

For us in Segmentum Solar the government is just using a vague threat somewhere far far away to distract from domestic issues.

Now that I know 40K is a satire, taking blows at just about every major religious and political insitution, I actually like it a lot more. :D

captcha: tembroac sorcery. - the chaos demons are upon us! :O

Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

If it was a Tau FPS it would have been better.
...Oh wait.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Fire_Warrior

Never mind.

Maybe if it was space wolves?
...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim

Yeah maybe not.

It's sad but in reality there isn't any good way to bring the Warhammer universe into a video game form because every thing has been done before. And the guys over at GW have decided they aren't going to push the envelope any time soon.

Fleaman:
I tend to feel that 40K derivative works don't capitalize on the setting's DOOM reserves.

I always feel that people boasting about the Imperial Guard's superior firepower are missing the point of the Imperial Guard flavor, which is to die horribly to phenomena from every branch of particle physics. And once in a while they manage, against all odds (though not really because of game balance of course), to eke out a victory amidst terrible sacrifices while their officers oppress the shit out of the poor assholes. Their heroism is without meaning if the setting is not only out to get them but actually usually does.

I liked it when the Tau were purely idealistic animu people with tons of hope and tolerance and a forward-thinking attitude towards technology, before all that grimderp mind control and sterilization stuff got written in. Because they were tiny, and if a Waaagh or a Black Crusade or a Hive Fleet so much as farted at them they would be utterly wiped out. They were actual good guys, a speck of hope to contrast the backwards oppressive juggernaut of the Imperium, in a setting that would eat them alive as soon as any major player decided to give them the time of day.

What people get right all the time is how over-the-top everything is. Bolters are standard-issue weapons that basically shoot RPGs on full auto. That's great, it's a funny little factoid. It's a funny factoid, because it's absurd and moronically juvenile. And meanwhile, the Space Marines carrying them are all grim and super serious and For The Emperor, and they look totally ridiculous. You say that it's awesome, or AWESOME, in the same way that Fist of the North Star is "AWESOME", which is to say that it's hilarious. What people keep overlooking is that 40K isn't grimdark because of how AWESOME it is, how tough Orks are, how dangerous Necrons can be - it's grimdark because everyone is stupid. And their weapons are stupid. And everything they think of is a bad idea.

I totally agree with you. especially that bit about the Tau... I formed my opinion about them after I played as them in the dawn of war games. they sounded like a tolerant people that actually wanted to make friends and for alliances, that allowed humans to join them in a caste of their own...

and then the writers took a turn up genocide avenue...

And that doesn't even make any sense. Why on earth would they do that, they're too small as it is. and why wouldn't they want to allow humans in their system, they have four different allied species already and since humans are so divided and culturally different, this wouldn't be a practical issue.

I've read something about them killing and sterilizing humans so they wouldn't interbreed with Tau. But that whole idea is ludicrous. The chance of humans being genetically compatible with an alien species is just too small. (Eldar would be better matches anyway.)

nothingspringstomind:
Danke for the knowledge boost, but i was referring to the human weaponry, merely considering the technological avenues that we are currently pursuing led me to believe that, logically, weaponry that relied on ammunition would have become defunct for the human race by the year 40,000. I assumed that we'd have something like the Mass Effect games later showed; ergonomically similar to modern rifles (Due simply to human anatomy being what it is.) but using a more advanced method of projectiles or even energy weaponry that doesn't require mass manufacture of raw materials that the trillions of bullets fired would nessecitate.

Don't mean to troll if it seems that way, just explaining what i mean. :D

You... really don't get how technology works in 40K. The height of human technological advancement occurred thousands of years prior to the setting's "current day", and is now referred to as "The Dark Age of Technology". The keepers of technology venerate machines as facets of the Omnissiah, and believe that rituals to appease the "machine spirits" are required for them to operate - in short, scientists have largely been replaced by a religious mystery cult that for the most part considers innovation to be heretical; the technological rate of advancement since the 31st Millennium has slowed to a crawl, and most of that prior to the Horus Heresy was simply recovering schematics and designs that humanity had already created in its distant past.

The Imperium as a whole is collectively losing knowledge, and the production of new technology is as much ritual as it is manufacturing in many cases; superstition reigns and reverse engineering is an affront to the sanctity of the machine, so you have examples where the Mechanicus knows perfectly well how to produce grav-plates for their warships but cannot then replicate the technology on a smaller scale to produce a grav-bike, even though they have vehicles that work on basically the same principle now.

Mass Effect is your standard Science Fiction vision of a bright shiny optimistic future, 40K is what happened after mankind already had one of those and it all went to hell in a hand basket - you are talking about a society that produces maxims like "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded". The rare few brilliant technical minds or innovators are exceptions to the hidebound stagnation that sees extremely advanced technology operated alongside stuff less advanced than what we commonly use now; loading the cannons on an Imperial ship of the line is done by hand, by entire teams of men.

But with that said the Imperium uses a whole bunch of energy weapons, lasguns are standard issue equipment to the Imperial Guard.

Frankster:

daftalchemist:

But I do have to agree about the ridiculousness of the balking at a woman in charge. But thank god those walking tank-men showed up to save her before she fainted from all the pressure of being in command!

Except that's not what happens. Find my previous posts buried around here somewhere on the topic....

I wouldn't know because I'm not about to sift through 10 pages of fanboyism to find it, and because I didn't get much farther than that point before I got bored and went to do something else.

Trillovinum:

Fleaman:
I tend to feel that 40K derivative works don't capitalize on the setting's DOOM reserves.

I always feel that people boasting about the Imperial Guard's superior firepower are missing the point of the Imperial Guard flavor, which is to die horribly to phenomena from every branch of particle physics. And once in a while they manage, against all odds (though not really because of game balance of course), to eke out a victory amidst terrible sacrifices while their officers oppress the shit out of the poor assholes. Their heroism is without meaning if the setting is not only out to get them but actually usually does.

I liked it when the Tau were purely idealistic animu people with tons of hope and tolerance and a forward-thinking attitude towards technology, before all that grimderp mind control and sterilization stuff got written in. Because they were tiny, and if a Waaagh or a Black Crusade or a Hive Fleet so much as farted at them they would be utterly wiped out. They were actual good guys, a speck of hope to contrast the backwards oppressive juggernaut of the Imperium, in a setting that would eat them alive as soon as any major player decided to give them the time of day.

What people get right all the time is how over-the-top everything is. Bolters are standard-issue weapons that basically shoot RPGs on full auto. That's great, it's a funny little factoid. It's a funny factoid, because it's absurd and moronically juvenile. And meanwhile, the Space Marines carrying them are all grim and super serious and For The Emperor, and they look totally ridiculous. You say that it's awesome, or AWESOME, in the same way that Fist of the North Star is "AWESOME", which is to say that it's hilarious. What people keep overlooking is that 40K isn't grimdark because of how AWESOME it is, how tough Orks are, how dangerous Necrons can be - it's grimdark because everyone is stupid. And their weapons are stupid. And everything they think of is a bad idea.

I totally agree with you. especially that bit about the Tau... I formed my opinion about them after I played as them in the dawn of war games. they sounded like a tolerant people that actually wanted to make friends and for alliances, that allowed humans to join them in a caste of their own...

and then the writers took a turn up genocide avenue...

And that doesn't even make any sense. Why on earth would they do that, they're too small as it is. and why wouldn't they want to allow humans in their system, they have four different allied species already and since humans are so divided and culturally different, this wouldn't be a practical issue.

I've read something about them killing and sterilizing humans so they wouldn't interbreed with Tau. But that whole idea is ludicrous. The chance of humans being genetically compatible with an alien species is just too small. (Eldar would be better matches anyway.)

Because the Eldar told the Ethereals to do it, the Eldar has been manipulating the Tau from the day they walked into their merry genocidal war of extinction. Since then the Tau was made to become the poster race for recruiting any race who wants unity at the cost of secretly being manipulated by the Eldar.

source was from Xenology.

I think I could say the same thing about the Warhammer 40K setting as I could about a lot of sci-fi and fantasy. The overall concept is pretty retarded, but a lot of the actual details and plot points are actually quite interesting. I guess in a lot of ways D&D doesn't have this problem as much because it isn't necessarily tied to just one setting and seems to put the details, such as rules, monster lists, and so on, as much more fundamental. Warhammer 40k seems to me to be focusing on it's setting, given that that's more or less all I hear about it. I know nothing about the gameplay. And really, the setting is interesting if one reads up on some of the stories and the details of the races, but over all it's pretty much "A whole bunch of aliens and humans all doing their best to win the annual most horrible war atrocity contest". It's not a deep and philosophical exploration into any deep subject, and it isn't meant to be. And most sci-fi and fantasy stories/settings are like that.

Gildan Bladeborn:

nothingspringstomind:
-SNIP-

You... really don't get how technology works in 40K. The height of human technological advancement occurred thousands of years prior to the setting's "current day", and is now referred to as "The Dark Age of Technology". The keepers of technology venerate machines as facets of the Omnissiah, and believe that rituals to appease the "machine spirits" are required for them to operate - in short, scientists have largely been replaced by a religious mystery cult that for the most part considers innovation to be heretical; the technological rate of advancement since the 31st Millennium has slowed to a crawl, and most of that prior to the Horus Heresy was simply recovering schematics and designs that humanity had already created in its distant past.

The Imperium as a whole is collectively losing knowledge, and the production of new technology is as much ritual as it is manufacturing in many cases; superstition reigns and reverse engineering is an affront to the sanctity of the machine, so you have examples where the Mechanicus knows perfectly well how to produce grav-plates for their warships but cannot then replicate the technology on a smaller scale to produce a grav-bike, even though they have vehicles that work on basically the same principle now.

Mass Effect is your standard Science Fiction vision of a bright shiny optimistic future, 40K is what happened after mankind already had one of those and it all went to hell in a hand basket - you are talking about a society that produces maxims like "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded". The rare few brilliant technical minds or innovators are exceptions to the hidebound stagnation that sees extremely advanced technology operated alongside stuff less advanced than what we commonly use now; loading the cannons on an Imperial ship of the line is done by hand, by entire teams of men.

But with that said the Imperium uses a whole bunch of energy weapons, lasguns are standard issue equipment to the Imperial Guard.

I never pretended to know the 40K history :P

Now that you've explained it, it makes a lot more sense.

As for Mass Effect being Utopian, i'd have to disagree, it's more like today, but with a magical macguffin(TM) in the Mass Effect Fields to explain FTL travel, with (most) of the rest of the technology having a rough basis in modern scientific endevours.

Thanks for the knowledge boost, though, the wikipedia entries i looked at never happened to mention all the stuff you said.

The advantages to being old are you know where stuff started and that things reflect the society that made them.

Warhammer 40K came about back in the 1980's when we were still in the Cold War and it looked like humanity was a nuke lobbing contest away from blasting ourselves back to the stone age. Made in Briton which had seen it's days as a world empire come and gone while dealing with some fairly bleak days of the 80's. Dystopian future films were still a big box office draw.

Given pop culture and Briton not being the happiest place on Earth it's not an unusual concept that a grim future game could come out of that culture.

But into that grim setting they injected that British brand of humor. Orks were green versions of the soccer hooligans and the oye crowd, Space Wolves were all the Viking stories cranked up to 11, Eldar were the posh crowd. Pretty much a stab at anything the creators could find to take a poke at in their society because a huge universe with loads of alien races gave you plenty of room to mess with ideas.

Plus it's got the space orks so how could you take the setting too seriously? Not too many settings where the bad guys say stuff like "ya gota poke 'im with da pointy end". Space orks are far lighter than the grim, way too damn serious enemies you see in other games.

Burn the heretic and purge the unclean...

I think Yahtzee is an agent of Chaos gods. But unfortunately common folks like us cannot detect his taint. This is a good time to call an Inquisitor to detect his taint.

daftalchemist:

I wouldn't know because I'm not about to sift through 10 pages of fanboyism to find it, and because I didn't get much farther than that point before I got bored and went to do something else.

It's on the first page, i'm sure you can manage it, unless you just want to 40k bash for the hell of it (and instantly dismissing 10 pages as pure fanboyism without reading them+ saying you got bored of the topic and didn't even make it through the first page gives a good clue that you kinda came in to confirm your biases rather then challenge them) in which case carry on.

http://www.boomtron.com/2011/02/back-to-the-future-with-a-warhammer/
Now HERE is a good article on 40k. And by a writer who actually has talent.

I played 40K once, a long time ago. I thought the models were really cool and the game was fun to. Then I started reading the stories... it wasn't too long after that I stopped playing. I just didn't won't my army to any more win, they were ass holes. Years latter I had a very similar problem with games like GTA and God of War.

Some people have commented that 40K has some kind of deeper meaning about ongoing war or whatever. I guess it's good if it has some meaning to you but I think any meaning you see is coming from your own projections rather than the game itself. The reason there is constant war is because it's a war game. It's the same reason there can never be any peace in the World of Warcraft. If there was the game would be over. If players from different WoW factions could communicate easily, they wouldn't harass each other so much.

The reason every faction is just as bad as every other faction is so players can just pick who they think has the coolest looking army or who fit's there play style better and don't have to worry about who has the moral high ground... though annoyingly many will still try.

So yea, I always think of 40K as an otherwise fun game that was ruined by a crappy, and completely nonsensical, back story.

That 'crappy, completely nonsensical backstory' was to set itself apart from Dune and other sci-fi fantasy settings, just as Fantasy's was to set itself apart from D&D. It did it's job very well.

...Holy shit, Yahtzee. You really threw rocks at the hornet's nest this time, didn't you?

Then again, you make a living doing that...

*goes back to playing 40k with his friends every weekend*

ACman:
Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

Pirates, exist (as do cobblers, but are out of focus as the setting is not about pirates or cobblers).

Merchant ships, exist, rogue traders come to mind immediatly, also more regular shipping is everywhere (not sure how to make merchants specifically venician or florentine though).

Reformation, exists (but when the religion is so fragmented as it is in the Imperium of Man, it tends not to have earyh shattering consequences), and is sometimes stamped out either by the ecclesiarchy or the inquisition.

Enlightment, exists, is heretical, is stamped out by the inquisition (and occasionally ends up summoning demons when it's not).

nothingspringstomind:
I never pretended to know the 40K history :P

Now that you've explained it, it makes a lot more sense.

As for Mass Effect being Utopian, i'd have to disagree, it's more like today, but with a magical macguffin(TM) in the Mass Effect Fields to explain FTL travel, with (most) of the rest of the technology having a rough basis in modern scientific endevours.

Thanks for the knowledge boost, though, the wikipedia entries i looked at never happened to mention all the stuff you said.

That's probably because Mass Effect is only set a few centuries in the future from now, humanity in that setting is basically just humanity now, but with some better gadgets. I wouldn't call it a utopia either, but it's still a hopeful setting populated by individuals with a relatively modern mindset (imperiled by the overall Reaper deal of course).

It used to be Wikipedia had all sorts of great info on Warhammer 40K, background on the Cult Mechanicus, Primarchs, etc, but then some overzealous editor gutted pretty much every 40K article on the site, removing just about everything other than the barebones details about the wargame/setting as a product, and for whatever reason that became the new standard. So Wikipedia is basically useless at telling you anything of substance about the setting now, if you're still curious I'd recommend consulting Lexicanum (link goes to the primary article on the Imperium, as good a place to start as any).

Why is it when anything 40k is mentioned, I feel an instinctual need to pretend I don't know what that is (despite owning a 2000-point tabletop army of my own)? Could it be because 40k fans are ravenous, rabid and obsessed with chain-anything? Could it be that they rage incessantly whenever anyone says anything bad about it? Could it be the horrible, horrible art that has come out of them that has permanently seared my eyeballs?

I'd love to harp on about the backstory, and as religion rebooted sci-fi goes it's pretty damn good, but there's a bit of a problem. Games Workshop keeps changing the backstory to fit more models, or explain one thing while simultaneously raising more questions. The chaos space marines used to have an outdated and archaic Power Armour (especially the longer exhaust ports on the back), but GW chopped that out and then Forgeworld totally canned it when they made their MK II-VI models. Now it seems they, and their armour, materialized out of the damn mist. That is the LEAST of the unnecessary retcons that GW has made over the years.

Worth mentioning; you know Yahtzee is allowed to dismiss things out of hand, right? He's an adult. He can do that. No amount of you telling him otherwise (or god help us, "educating" him) is going to change his mind for him. Honestly, I feel like trolling you guys at this point would be dangerously simple. Grow thicker skin and enjoy your hobby.

ACman:
Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

Meet Kaptin Bluddflagg from Retribution. YAAAAAAAAR, I mean, WAAAAAAAAAAGH!

image

I dunno, sounds like Yahtzee got beat up by one too many Warhammer fans in his youth. I mean, really, it's SUPPOSED to be exaggerated and over the top. Now, there are some emo fans out there who like to natter on about the philosophical meaning of the Horus Heresy and all that, but really, it's more than a little bit satirical.

Mouse One:

ACman:
Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

Meet Kaptin Bluddflagg from Retribution. YAAAAAAAAR, I mean, WAAAAAAAAAAGH!

image

I dunno, sounds like Yahtzee got beat up by one too many Warhammer fans in his youth. I mean, really, it's SUPPOSED to be exaggerated and over the top. Now, there are some emo fans out there who like to natter on about the philosophical meaning of the Horus Heresy and all that, but really, it's more than a little bit satirical.

Dude it just hit me.... Duke Nukem as a space marine. That or he IS one and was thrown into the past by some sort of bad trip through the warp.

Thedek:
Dude it just hit me.... Duke Nukem as a space marine. That or he IS one and was thrown into the past by some sort of bad trip through the warp.

Nah, Duke can't be a Space Marine. They get their testicles and hormones surgically removed as part of their "enhanceents". I think the reason in the fluff is so that they are fully devoted to the Emperor instead of their families or somesuch.

Oh look. Another opinion piece by Mr. Croshaw.

* moves on *

Mouse One:

Meet Kaptin Bluddflagg from Retribution. YAAAAAAAAR, I mean, WAAAAAAAAAAGH!

image

I dunno, sounds like Yahtzee got beat up by one too many Warhammer fans in his youth. I mean, really, it's SUPPOSED to be exaggerated and over the top. Now, there are some emo fans out there who like to natter on about the philosophical meaning of the Horus Heresy and all that, but really, it's more than a little bit satirical.

Well in Yahtzee's defense some of those larger figures would really hurt if you got beaned with one. An ork nob in 'eavy armor would really sting if you threw it with a bit of force.

nyysjan:

ACman:
Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

Pirates, exist (as do cobblers, but are out of focus as the setting is not about pirates or cobblers).

Merchant ships, exist, rogue traders come to mind immediatly, also more regular shipping is everywhere (not sure how to make merchants specifically venician or florentine though).

Reformation, exists (but when the religion is so fragmented as it is in the Imperium of Man, it tends not to have earyh shattering consequences), and is sometimes stamped out either by the ecclesiarchy or the inquisition.

Enlightment, exists, is heretical, is stamped out by the inquisition (and occasionally ends up summoning demons when it's not).

So what you're saying is that these things exist but do not exist for the purposes of the game . The only reference to pirates I can come up with refer to Fallen Dark Angels, Chaos or dark eldar. And weren't you the guy who told me that only the Imperium had ships?

And if a reformation has occured does it have a sphere of influence? Where is it? Who controls it?

And Enlightenment doesn't really happen when the state is still a theocracy. That's by definition the point of an enlightenment.

ACman:

So what you're saying is that these things exist but do not exist for the purposes of the game . The only reference to pirates I can come up with refer to Fallen Dark Angels, Chaos or dark eldar. And weren't you the guy who told me that only the Imperium had ships?

Plenty of other races have ships. Check out Battlefleet Gothic (the rules of which are free to download). The Eldar in the basic rules are pirates. Not wanting to be a part of the craftworld system, but not as twisted as Dark Eldar (who could be considered pirates, looting and pillaging and taking prisoners). Just self serving and arrogant. Orks can also be pirates, as mentioned before, and there are plenty of humans who hang out on the fringes of society that dabble in piracy (who may or may not be servants of chaos). Renegade Space Marines do not necessarily belong to one of the legions, they could also dabble in piracy (the Red Corsairs come to mind). I have read that there is a fine line between a Rogue Trader and a pirate.....

But yes, there are pirates in 40K. They don't really serve much of a purpose in the Warhammer 40K tabletop game unless you are writing a scenario around pirates, and the upcoming Imperial Armour 11 book revolves around Eldar pirates.....but for the most part pirates are confined to Battlefleet Gothic.

Edit: If I remember correctly, there were rules for pirate fleets in one of the now defunct BFG magazines. And if the 2010 compendium ever goes official, there are more extensive rules for pirates there.

Major Tom:

ACman:

So what you're saying is that these things exist but do not exist for the purposes of the game . The only reference to pirates I can come up with refer to Fallen Dark Angels, Chaos or dark eldar. And weren't you the guy who told me that only the Imperium had ships?

Plenty of other races have ships. Check out Battlefleet Gothic (the rules of which are free to download). The Eldar in the basic rules are pirates. Not wanting to be a part of the craftworld system, but not as twisted as Dark Eldar (who could be considered pirates, looting and pillaging and taking prisoners). Just self serving and arrogant. Orks can also be pirates, as mentioned before, and there are plenty of humans who hang out on the fringes of society that dabble in piracy (who may or may not be servants of chaos). Renegade Space Marines do not necessarily belong to one of the legions, they could also dabble in piracy (the Red Corsairs come to mind). I have read that there is a fine line between a Rogue Trader and a pirate.....

But yes, there are pirates in 40K. They don't really serve much of a purpose in the Warhammer 40K tabletop game unless you are writing a scenario around pirates, and the upcoming Imperial Armour 11 book revolves around Eldar pirates.....but for the most part pirates are confined to Battlefleet Gothic.

Edit: If I remember correctly, there were rules for pirate fleets in one of the now defunct BFG magazines. And if the 2010 compendium ever goes official, there are more extensive rules for pirates there.

I am talking about humans.

I don't care about orks pirates/eldar pirates/space marine pirates/chaos pirates.

I am talking about human pirates within human space.

I am talking about fractional separation in government; not within the inquisition, not between unrelated planets, not hive/desert/jungle/factory/death world differences but differences between regions of space that form say trading blocks or defensive coalitions or mini-empires/kindoms who might(would!) have rivalries between each other.

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