Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine

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The game was Kapt. Bloodflag and Mistah Nailbrain to make it a great game, but for me I love the money I spent on it being a huge fanboy. It's what I wanted a chance to smash stuff as a space marine, sadly wasn't as a blood angel, but still the game was missing the signature Orky humor of the DoW series.

Siege_TF:

nothingspringstomind:
we're apparently still using the most basic of projectile weaponry as standard issue.

(Notice: this applies to basic troop weapons only). Orks use slug throwers, Marines use gyroguns, Guard use laser guns, Tau use plasma, Eldar use railguns, Necrons use gauss guns, Chaos uses magic.
So... you're an Ork then?

As for the Ultramarines themselves they're the bog standard for Marines, and the mascots for the franchise. It would have been far, far more interesting to play as Black Templars or Salamanders, the attitudes of which are quite different from the boys in blue, but they're not the mascots.

Lol, i was wondering how long it would be until i was corrected. I understand that the guns fire bullets that are about the size of my head (the ones i've seen the ultramarines use at least.) but from what i've seen of the mechanics it all looked pretty standard, just bigger.

I guess when i originally heard about 40K all those years ago, i assumed standard armament would have been something sleeker and less mechanical.

nothingspringstomind:

Siege_TF:

nothingspringstomind:
we're apparently still using the most basic of projectile weaponry as standard issue.

(Notice: this applies to basic troop weapons only). Orks use slug throwers, Marines use gyroguns, Guard use laser guns, Tau use plasma, Eldar use railguns, Necrons use gauss guns, Chaos uses magic.
So... you're an Ork then?

As for the Ultramarines themselves they're the bog standard for Marines, and the mascots for the franchise. It would have been far, far more interesting to play as Black Templars or Salamanders, the attitudes of which are quite different from the boys in blue, but they're not the mascots.

Lol, i was wondering how long it would be until i was corrected. I understand that the guns fire bullets that are about the size of my head (the ones i've seen the ultramarines use at least.) but from what i've seen of the mechanics it all looked pretty standard, just bigger.

I guess when i originally heard about 40K all those years ago, i assumed standard armament would have been something sleeker and less mechanical.

Eldar Shuriken Catapult
http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/eldar_guardians_weapon_team_shuriken_catapult_large.jpg

Tau Pulse Rifle or any Tau weapon for that matter
http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/6/5152/57622.jpg

Tyranid Venom Cannon or, again, any Tyranid weapon
http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/images/Venom_cannon.JPG

All sleek and not mechanical looking at all. Especially the Nids weapons.

To be fair some of the human weapons are fairly advanced but the whole design for human kit is intended to be big, boxy, and blocky.

The 40k back story is absolutely fucking hilarious. It's basically exactly as juvenile and ridiculous as you're saying, it's just that reading about some of the truly insane shit the have in that universe is a great way to kill an afternoon laughing uproariously as you look through the wiki.

thaluikhain:

ACman:
I has always bothered me that the 40k universe is essentially a massive fascist theocracy where any sort of departure from the dogma of the state is eliminated with extreme prejudice.

There's no one to side with. Space Marines are battle-crazed fanatics. Chaos is hell. Orks are well... orks. Tyranids are insectoid monsters. Eldar would exterminate mankind without a second thought if they could. Tau are space communists. Imperial Guard are part of the aforementioned fascist theocratic space empire. Cultists are either alien or chaos mad. Necrons are space-undead-robot-gods or some shit.

I always thought the emperor should be more like a space-pope. Then there could be multiple human kingdoms/federations/confederacies/compacts.

But no, any difference will be purged by a bunch of insane fanatical jihadist. Bah.

Um...that was the whole point? To get away from those Star Trek style utopian settings in a big way. One reason I absolutely hated the introduction of the Tau.

I never said that the alternatives should be like Trek. And I didn't say that you need to get away from having the empire. I just thought it would be more interesting and more human to have alternatives. So the empire are Space catholics and you could have a reformation producing space protestants who might offshoot and form space puritans and maybe you have a little corner of space orthodox and space jews with maybe some space muslims emerging later.

Each could be it's own federation/empire/kingdom whatever. Or each could have multiple kingdom/ empires/whatever.

The 40k universe as it stands is restrictive. Sure you've got many different types of people and world but they're all forced to follow the same awful religious dogma or apparently turn into chaos. The only people who seem to have any sort of freewill are inquisitors who do the torturing and extermination.

Edit: Spaaaaaaaacccccceeee!

Their are actually breaks in the Inquisition and their church their just small and normally quite about it, their are inquisitors and members of the "chuch" that want to work with aliens or to reform the church entirely for example.

I don't find it fair to compare the tabletop to chess anymore than i find it fair to compare chess to checkers, but that's an equally stupid thing to pick at.

It strikes me that you are largely unfamiliar with the 40K universe - the ultramarines are easily the most boring chapter because they are designed to be the cub scouts - the guys who follow every rule written, in large part because their primarch founder wrote half of them and approved the other half. (metaphorically speaking - i'm not sure if he actually wrote the codex astartes but i'm pretty sure it was his idea)

In a Blood Angels novel, you see some citizens recently liberated by a group of Space Marines. Some of the children create icons of their saviors, and one of the space marines tells her that what she is doing is wrong because there are no icons of the emperor.

The scene is meant to demonstrate the changing mindset of the planet's populace (long story, i'll spare you) but indirectly it also shows that the people have SOME time to themselves. An inquisitor in the same series has a romance with his servant (no, not a servitor, everybody - a regular human) whom he later kills.

There ARE things besides war in 40K, but the point of that subtitle is that there is no real peace. That fundamental idea - that war doesn't end - is what gives almost every tabletop game a place in canon. Even two necron armies duking it out is made plausible by the existence of multiple C'Tan gods.

To call 40K childish is... well, dumb. Really dumb. Why? A) The lore isn't really the point of the tabletop and isn't MEANT to be taken seriously anyway
B) Because it's not really an argument against the setting itself, just the people who partake in it, and immaturity is measured largely by how much you care about immaturity.

And comparing painting the miniatures to a coloring book? REALLY, Yahtzee? -_-

I WISH it was like a coloring book. Coloring books are CHEAP and EASY.

To be honest Yahtzee, the games have never done the actual universe justice. If you go read Nemesis in the Horus Heresy series, you'll find that there is actually a lot of humour in there. That book was like watching a train-crash in slow motion if you knew anything about the universe and that made it awesome.

Also, AD&D and 40k aren't mutually exclusive. I've been playing AD&D for years and like reading 40k stuff.

Fortesque:

nothingspringstomind:

Siege_TF:

(Notice: this applies to basic troop weapons only). Orks use slug throwers, Marines use gyroguns, Guard use laser guns, Tau use plasma, Eldar use railguns, Necrons use gauss guns, Chaos uses magic.
So... you're an Ork then?

As for the Ultramarines themselves they're the bog standard for Marines, and the mascots for the franchise. It would have been far, far more interesting to play as Black Templars or Salamanders, the attitudes of which are quite different from the boys in blue, but they're not the mascots.

Lol, i was wondering how long it would be until i was corrected. I understand that the guns fire bullets that are about the size of my head (the ones i've seen the ultramarines use at least.) but from what i've seen of the mechanics it all looked pretty standard, just bigger.

I guess when i originally heard about 40K all those years ago, i assumed standard armament would have been something sleeker and less mechanical.

Eldar Shuriken Catapult
http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/eldar_guardians_weapon_team_shuriken_catapult_large.jpg

Tau Pulse Rifle or any Tau weapon for that matter
http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/6/5152/57622.jpg

Tyranid Venom Cannon or, again, any Tyranid weapon
http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/images/Venom_cannon.JPG

All sleek and not mechanical looking at all. Especially the Nids weapons.

Danke for the knowledge boost, but i was referring to the human weaponry, merely considering the technological avenues that we are currently pursuing led me to believe that, logically, weaponry that relied on ammunition would have become defunct for the human race by the year 40,000. I assumed that we'd have something like the Mass Effect games later showed; ergonomically similar to modern rifles (Due simply to human anatomy being what it is.) but using a more advanced method of projectiles or even energy weaponry that doesn't require mass manufacture of raw materials that the trillions of bullets fired would nessecitate.

Don't mean to troll if it seems that way, just explaining what i mean. :D

cefm:
Gears of War had about zero back-story (not even in the pathetically thin user's guide). But it never pretended to. It was just stupid big muscle-dudes with no helmets shooting bad stuff from behind cover.

I don't really care for Warhammer 40k and don't really intend to ever get into it, but I feel that I should point out that Gears of War actually has a SHIT-TON of extended backstory never touched upon in game. For example, the characters of Tai, Dizzy, Bernie, Sam, Jace and even the childhoods of both Fenix and Santiago are touched on a lot more thoroughly then in the games. They even talk about the Immulsion wars that went on prior to E-Day. Heck, they're even planning on releasing a book on Marcus' time in prison before the events of the first game.

You've earned yourself a ton of enemies by saying that. Can I join your little club, please?
I don't like this series, either. It seems too extreme and loses any hint of sobriety or seriousness. You could go on about the darkness of future and grim intergalactic wars, but you need some sense of modesty. When everything is a 14ft tall armored giant that shoots rockets, it careens from a dark, war torn future to a cartoonish caricature, barely mimicking the original idea. If you intend these massive beings to be seen as massive, you need to provide a contrast. Little men running around the ankles, struggling to keep up, smaller guns, some added complexity with the size, because when everything is scaled to 100 on the ridiculometer, nothing seems special. If there is no foil to the massive, everything is tiny. The chunky guns work against the intended scale of the conflict, acting to your eyes as a proportional ruler, actually making the people look less significant, rather than the guns more so. This can be applied to everything in the universe- there is no point of reference, so everything loses definition. The thing needs to be monitored, because it seems to be trying to top itself every year or so.
As for the painting, the minis are too ridiculous for me to really like, and $10 a miniature is prohibition-whiskey price.

While I don't agree with Yahtzee that everything in the 40K universe is juvenile rubbish, I do think that the vast majority of stuff dealing with Space Marines is. While things like the Inquisition, Imperial Guard and decrepit state of the Imperium were often depressing to the point of parody, at least there was a human element to it.

Not so much so with Space Marines, who are more often than not depicted as all powerful demigods and Mary Sues. Yes there are exceptions to the rule but the childish crap seems to be getting more and more prevalent with the newer army books.

Sixcess:
...Of course, part of the problem is that more and more these days the background is taken at face value, by writers and players alike. That can be done well (e.g. Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts series) or very very badly indeed (e.g. every Space Marine fanwank power fantasy that spews out of Matt Ward's pen...)

But the original background was tongue-in-cheek, to say the least. Just to give one example - Orks are basically soccer hooligans with green skin and big gunz... and buggies. Red buggies of course, 'cos as everyone knows, red wunz go fasta.

Just so.

Seriously, if you want an interesting perspective on the 40k universe, read Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn and Ravenor series. As Abnett noted somewhere, he started with the Imperial Guard and Inquisition because the Astartes are incredibly difficult characters to put at the center of a narrative. As has been mentioned here (and is brought up relentlessly over on RPS), Ultramarines are particularly bad in this regard.

nothingspringstomind:

Fortesque:

nothingspringstomind:

Lol, i was wondering how long it would be until i was corrected. I understand that the guns fire bullets that are about the size of my head (the ones i've seen the ultramarines use at least.) but from what i've seen of the mechanics it all looked pretty standard, just bigger.

I guess when i originally heard about 40K all those years ago, i assumed standard armament would have been something sleeker and less mechanical.

Eldar Shuriken Catapult
http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/eldar_guardians_weapon_team_shuriken_catapult_large.jpg

Tau Pulse Rifle or any Tau weapon for that matter
http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/6/5152/57622.jpg

Tyranid Venom Cannon or, again, any Tyranid weapon
http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/images/Venom_cannon.JPG

All sleek and not mechanical looking at all. Especially the Nids weapons.

Danke for the knowledge boost, but i was referring to the human weaponry, merely considering the technological avenues that we are currently pursuing led me to believe that, logically, weaponry that relied on ammunition would have become defunct for the human race by the year 40,000. I assumed that we'd have something like the Mass Effect games later showed; ergonomically similar to modern rifles (Due simply to human anatomy being what it is.) but using a more advanced method of projectiles or even energy weaponry that doesn't require mass manufacture of raw materials that the trillions of bullets fired would nessecitate.

Don't mean to troll if it seems that way, just explaining what i mean. :D

The guard uses lasguns I believe as standard weapons, as in laser rifles. Space marines use bolters, as in rapid fire mini rocket propelled grenade launchers.

I saw a cut away picture of the idea. The shell has about JUST enough standard ish propellant to get out of the barrel then a rocket fuse lights and takes it the rest of the way to the target, which it tends to pierce as even the standard bolts are fairly armor piercing, then when it embedded within a target the bolt explodes from within.

I have never heard of anyone trying to marry the design of a RPG and standard armor piercing rounds on top of making them about.60.70 caliber( such a bullet doesn't exist to my knowledge) and then make them standard issue for special forces, to the point that is also what the SIDEARMS fire.

cefm:
Gears of War had about zero back-story (not even in the pathetically thin user's guide). But it never pretended to. It was just stupid big muscle-dudes with no helmets shooting bad stuff from behind cover.

What bugs me about WH40K is that it PRETENDS to have a back-story but doesn't really. There's just no real explanation of motivations, economy, politics, etc. And from the extremely limited story that is there, these other levels of detail are rendered impossible. It's just WE KILL THEM, and THEY KILL US. That's it.

What I couldn't ever understand is why those huge imaginary table-top army clashes were ever considered possible or even desireable. Since the invention of the rifle it's been bad form to mass troops and advance in large numbers. It's just too easy to put too much explosive power in a targeted area for the opponent to survive. So it's all about small unit tactics and staying out of sight and behind cover. The only reason human waves worked a little in North Korea was that they were HUMAN so tactical nukes weren't used. No such problem with Orks.

It's all just unrealistic bull that only the most juvenile middle-schooler would find engaging.

Admittedly, Gears of War didn't have much of a backstory beyond the Pendulum Wars, but it did DO something that I found commendable in an age where the future or the world is composed entirely of war: It showed that people wanted it to END, and it showed even more that there was something beyond WAR.

Adam Fenix, though he didn't get much development beyond redeeming father and whatnot, showed something that I found quite interesting in, well, all of these gritty game shooters. He represented closure. A finale. An end to this conflict. It makes you remember that the COG aren't genetically modified super soldiers, like John-117 and Noble Six from Halo; these people enlisted in the COG due to the events of the war, and had abandoned lives before it to do what they're doing right now. They had stuff beyond shooting people that shot back at them.

What was it that Adam Fenix desired for Sera, as cliche as it was? To live. To enjoy living. To go on living, despite what may have happened. Many shooters glorify the actions of their heroic battle or that final firefight with the big bad, going on about how badass they are and how they're going to enjoy doing it again. Gears didn't do that. Even if it was unintentional, what they did was bring a closure to the conflict. The Locust and the Imulsion are gone; Sera is at peace. Marcus, Anya, Cole, Baird, and the others can go on living what lives they had previously before the Pendulum Wars, because the ending showed that you don't fight war because it's war: You fight for the tomorrow. For an end.

Unintentional? Overanalysis? Maybe, but GoW presented that, and I've never seen it in any other shooters. It didn't glorify the COG or how they beat the Locust really good or showed off chainsawing numbers; it showed an end. The war is over. They can go on with their lives.

That's what pisses me off about things like Space Marine and, to an extent, CoD. In the end, it's only their to show how awesome the military is or how badass war is. People don't fight war on a whim in real life; we do it because we dream of a better future, of a glorious tomorrow, and we fight for that sake. Anyone who loses sight of that goal doesn't deserve to write anything involving war, because it becomes meaningless tripe.

Space Marines making Warhammer 40,000 look like crap...can't say I didn't see this one coming.

I think, as a few above have said, this review just comes down to Yahtzee not actually knowing much about the history and universe behind the Space Marines. So he just sees the very basics of it and judges it on being shallow. It's just the same as seeing the Roman Empire as just the wars they fought. There is a huge amount of cultural and political information behind that, but you don't see that initially.

That's nice and all, but it doesn't change my opinion at all.

I love the W40K universe and accept it fully for what it is; a gritty, over-the-top, stupid slug-fest of crazy, batshit insane religous zealots ripping each other apart in various different ways.

I do not take it seriously like some kind of philosophical piece meant to inspire me or anything like. If I wanted to imagine what Nazis, Soviets, America, Britain and Lord of the Rings would be if they were thrown together, put into space and told to be as crazy as possible...I would just look at W40K, because that's basically what it is, with some robotic zombies thrown in for good measure.

Deshara:
I was pretty happy with this article, because so far, any time I mentioned to someone who knew what 40K was that it takes itself way too fucking seriously for something with such a dumb setting for me to enjoy, I get bitched at.

Thats because they take it seriously. I enjoy the setting and the stories, because I consider it to be awesome dipped in nightmare sauce. Try telling the pony people that the ponies are dumb. They take that really seriously, too.

ThunderCavalier:

cefm:
Gears of War had about zero back-story (not even in the pathetically thin user's guide). But it never pretended to. It was just stupid big muscle-dudes with no helmets shooting bad stuff from behind cover.

What bugs me about WH40K is that it PRETENDS to have a back-story but doesn't really. There's just no real explanation of motivations, economy, politics, etc. And from the extremely limited story that is there, these other levels of detail are rendered impossible. It's just WE KILL THEM, and THEY KILL US. That's it.

What I couldn't ever understand is why those huge imaginary table-top army clashes were ever considered possible or even desireable. Since the invention of the rifle it's been bad form to mass troops and advance in large numbers. It's just too easy to put too much explosive power in a targeted area for the opponent to survive. So it's all about small unit tactics and staying out of sight and behind cover. The only reason human waves worked a little in North Korea was that they were HUMAN so tactical nukes weren't used. No such problem with Orks.

It's all just unrealistic bull that only the most juvenile middle-schooler would find engaging.

Admittedly, Gears of War didn't have much of a backstory beyond the Pendulum Wars, but it did DO something that I found commendable in an age where the future or the world is composed entirely of war: It showed that people wanted it to END, and it showed even more that there was something beyond WAR.

Adam Fenix, though he didn't get much development beyond redeeming father and whatnot, showed something that I found quite interesting in, well, all of these gritty game shooters. He represented closure. A finale. An end to this conflict. It makes you remember that the COG aren't genetically modified super soldiers, like John-117 and Noble Six from Halo; these people enlisted in the COG due to the events of the war, and had abandoned lives before it to do what they're doing right now. They had stuff beyond shooting people that shot back at them.

What was it that Adam Fenix desired for Sera, as cliche as it was? To live. To enjoy living. To go on living, despite what may have happened. Many shooters glorify the actions of their heroic battle or that final firefight with the big bad, going on about how badass they are and how they're going to enjoy doing it again. Gears didn't do that. Even if it was unintentional, what they did was bring a closure to the conflict. The Locust and the Imulsion are gone; Sera is at peace. Marcus, Anya, Cole, Baird, and the others can go on living what lives they had previously before the Pendulum Wars, because the ending showed that you don't fight war because it's war: You fight for the tomorrow. For an end.

Unintentional? Overanalysis? Maybe, but GoW presented that, and I've never seen it in any other shooters. It didn't glorify the COG or how they beat the Locust really good or showed off chainsawing numbers; it showed an end. The war is over. They can go on with their lives.

That's what pisses me off about things like Space Marine and, to an extent, CoD. In the end, it's only their to show how awesome the military is or how badass war is. People don't fight war on a whim in real life; we do it because we dream of a better future, of a glorious tomorrow, and we fight for that sake. Anyone who loses sight of that goal doesn't deserve to write anything involving war, because it becomes meaningless tripe.

Most wars are waged for petty flippant tripe, it's the soldiers who fight and die for their futures and their dreams not politicians or kings they only have their pettiness or greed to drive them most of the time. That's true even in 40k most guardsmen simply want to go home or win a new home so they can be done with the hell their leaders have imposed on them for a while.

The_Emperor:
The Space Marine game was meh

40k is still great though, fun chess style game. The lore is so manly it has 4 balls and all of them have rock hard abs.

you puny humans just don't get it :P

mind you it's went downhill in recent years.

Eh, Games Workshop is just in one of it's pissy fits. That's why I keep telling myself I'm so lucky to have made my last 40k purchase over two years ago when things really took a turn for the worst. But I don't think it helps that it was a Forge World Bio-Titan. (I want my invulnerable saves back D:)

evilthecat:
Although I do think even the new Dark Eldar models have a different thing going for them.

The models seem.. busier.. for want of a better word, and while I do think the DE range is now looking awesome compared to the malformed shit they had before, I don't think it's necessarily a good trend in general.

I agree. I have often complained on other forums about GW models appearing to "carry their entire house" with them to battle. But again, I don't think this is a conscious decision to be cartoony. One cause might be that when there are more details on a model, there are more things to paint. It can be very hard for new-to-intermediate painters to make a flat surface (like say, a blank armour plate) look appealing. If they're covered in bric-a-brac and useless junk, then there are all sorts of little details to pick out and paint. That's why for a long time that I didn't know how to shade or highlight, my Eldrad Uthran model was my best-looking miniature. He had so many tiny details to break up the big fields of color. Now that I've learned how to shade, he has become one of my worst models to the point that I ended up stripping the paint off of him entirely.

Try the specialist games.

It's the only reason I bother with the company any more.

Of the games set in the 40k universe..

Battlefleet Gothic in particular is a phenomenally good game which keeps getting better now that it's in the hands of the specialist games community who keep producing new material. It's about giant spaceship-cathedrals shooting each other in space, so it even manages to be suitably campy.

I know about Battlefleet Gothic. I used to have an Eldar fleet ages ago, but I got rid of it because I had no one to play with and the ship aesthetic stopped appealing to me. I might one day return with the Tau ships from Forgeworld, but that will be some distant time when I have far more money and time.

I haven't played Epic since I was tiny, it's probably the closest specialist games get to being 40k, both in terms of price and gameplay. Still, anyone playing it nowadays is going to be doing so for the right reasons, and it has giant skyscraper-sized robot fights.

I looked into this a while back, but I ended up not because the Eldar models are mostly very old and out-dated looking and what Tau models Forgeworld provides are an incomplete representation of the list and very expensive.

To be honest, I'm not going to have the time to paint and collect and play for a few years. So I'm just not in the market. At most I will pick up a figure here and there based on if I like the figure, not based on its relevance to the game. And as a part of this I am looking into companies outside GW as I find anymore GW provides a poor quality for the price tag compared to other companies. I have considered looking into Infinity, but even a 5-man starter set may exceed my free time for now. In the fantasy market, Red-Box-Games makes some of the best figures I've ever seen at rock-bottom prices and Maelstrom has some exceptional designs for their Banebeast/Banelegions lines.

It's a pity, really. The original Warhammer 40k setting was written as a big, goofy parody. It's right there in the slogan... "Tn the grim darkness of the future there is only war." Then you've got the space marines, who are each and every one a mighty action movie hero, and the imperial guard who march into combat and die with their flashlight weapons. You've got the aliens who eat planets, and the other aliens who eat planets, and the aliens who are soccer hooligans, and the rebellious humans who betrayed the golden Jesus and worship demons and shoot their demon bullets out of guns made out of giant demons while they drive their tanks made of screaming demons accross vast alien planets that are actually enormous demons. And people who pray to the spirits in the coppy machines and people who ride horses into battle against giant robot space elves and space dwarves and try to pike them to bits with wooden lances.

This is a light, goofy setting perfect for a setting where any two players can pit their armies against one another in combat without worrying if it made any sense or not. No, it didn't. Nothing in 40k made sense. Everything in it was silly, from the imperial doctrine to the space elf zombie robots, and that was great.

Then, people started taking it seriously.

It's always a problem when people don't get the joke.

MysticMongol:
-snip-

I have to disagree everyone in our club and the three main clubs we play with all agree that it pretty much is silly and frankly funnier because it takes itself too seriously and considering out of the thirty of us only four played prior to 3rd edition we've never even seen the "true WH40k".

I know nothing about WH40K - I've never played any of the table top games, or read any fiction. And I'm not interested in finding out either.

Still, I bought the game. It's ok, not great, but decent enough that I will play it through to the end and mostly enjoy it. Most reviews seem to give it at the 7/10 level - which seems fair to me.

As for the protagonist and the lack of emotion or whatever. This titus dude is a caricature - sure, it's over the top, but the complete lack of angst is actually quite refreshing and I'm quite liking him because of it.

(oh and goatees really are a pretentious affectation as is wearing a stupid trilby or whatever kind of hat it is)

E-Penguin:

Abandon4093:
I think you need to read a bit more about the universe before you slate it. You're approaching their ideals and logic from your own. Which doesn't make sense because their world/universe has never been like ours. isn't really fair.

The Warhammer 40k universe isn't actually taking place in the same universe as the original Wahammer, it's actually our own, 38,000 years (give or take) in the future.

That was retconned in like a few years ago. And it makes no sense.

ACman:

thaluikhain:

ACman:
I has always bothered me that the 40k universe is essentially a massive fascist theocracy where any sort of departure from the dogma of the state is eliminated with extreme prejudice.

There's no one to side with. Space Marines are battle-crazed fanatics. Chaos is hell. Orks are well... orks. Tyranids are insectoid monsters. Eldar would exterminate mankind without a second thought if they could. Tau are space communists. Imperial Guard are part of the aforementioned fascist theocratic space empire. Cultists are either alien or chaos mad. Necrons are space-undead-robot-gods or some shit.

I always thought the emperor should be more like a space-pope. Then there could be multiple human kingdoms/federations/confederacies/compacts.

But no, any difference will be purged by a bunch of insane fanatical jihadist. Bah.

Um...that was the whole point? To get away from those Star Trek style utopian settings in a big way. One reason I absolutely hated the introduction of the Tau.

I never said that the alternatives should be like Trek. And I didn't say that you need to get away from having the empire. I just thought it would be more interesting and more human to have alternatives. So the empire are Space catholics and you could have a reformation producing space protestants who might offshoot and form space puritans and maybe you have a little corner of space orthodox and space jews with maybe some space muslims emerging later.

Each could be it's own federation/empire/kingdom whatever. Or each could have multiple kingdom/ empires/whatever.

The 40k universe as it stands is restrictive. Sure you've got many different types of people and world but they're all forced to follow the same awful religious dogma or apparently turn into chaos. The only people who seem to have any sort of freewill are inquisitors who do the torturing and extermination.

Edit: Spaaaaaaaacccccceeee!

They have all of those, or some variations of them (except maybe space jews), Imperium is hardly monolithic, while the administratum and munitorium are mindblowingly huge monolithic bureocracies, and adeptus arbites are fairly monolithic empire wide police force (but they are few, sometimes only one member for a planet, sometimes not even that), planets have extremely wide ranges of religious, political and cultural differences, and ecclesiarchy accepts very differing forms of worships aslong as you A. worship the emperor, B. kill anyone who does not worship the emperor, C. hate chaos, D. kill all mutants/psykers/aliens (unless given exemption, ogryns for mutants, navigators for mutant/psyker hybrids, and sanctioned psykers for psykers, and there are some trade and negotiations between races, but it's very rare, and extremely tightly regulated).

And WH40K is not really that restrictive, anymore than any other fictional universe with inbuilt canon, the Empire of Man is so bloody HUGE, and so parsely mapped, that you can tell any story you want in it (with some restrictions to canon, for example, there are no female space marines, you need to use sisters of battle instead), from almost any time period you want (some planets are stuck in stone age, some in medieval times, just take your pick and run with it), it's nomore restrictive than any other pre existing universe.

thaluikhain:
Ouch!

IMHO, he does the backstory a serious injustice. Or, rather, he's missed the opportunity to complain about the really specifically crap bits, rather than just the vague premise.

Like how Khorne lends his bloodletters to a psyker? Or that the Inquisition openly dares to accuse an Ultramarine Captain of heresy?

nyysjan:

ACman:

thaluikhain:

snip

snip

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But you never really hear about space Germany invading space Russia. Or Space England having a long standing space-naval war with Space-France and Space-Spain. Or Space Constantinople being overrun by Space-Arabs.

The empire is heterogeneous but it's still an empire. All its enemies are external or defined to be horrible horrible perversions.

I guess its how you interpret the fluff but I see the 40k universe as being lots of individual planets that are defined by their industry/geography with the majority of interrelations being carried out by inquisitors and warrior zealots (space marines) all enusuring some sort of theocratic hegemony.

It would be more interesting to have Earth be like Space-Papel States. Let the Inquisition be it's Authority. Let the Space Marines be Warrior-Monks/Knights with chapters spread through humanity's sphere of control who only fight according to their own set of principles (eg Like the Templars in the crusades.)

hideomgskojima:

Metalix Knightmare:

ACman:
I has always bothered me that the 40k universe is essentially a massive fascist theocracy where any sort of departure from the dogma of the state is eliminated with extreme prejudice.

There's no one to side with. Space Marines are battle-crazed fanatics. Chaos is hell. Orks are well... orks. Tyranids are insectoid monsters. Eldar would exterminate mankind without a second thought if they could. Tau are space communists. Imperial Guard are part of the aforementioned fascist theocratic space empire. Cultists are either alien or chaos mad. Necrons are space-undead-robot-gods or some shit.

I always thought the emperor should be more like a space-pope. Then there could be multiple human kingdoms/federations/confederacies/compacts.

But no, any difference will be purged by a bunch of insane fanatical jihadist. Bah.

You ARE aware that the Emperor is Incapacitated and on life support right? He can't really do much.

And has been for the past 10,000 Years since he killed Horus and received a mortal wound himself... Thank you Golden Throne, also Imperial Guard are awesome to play, normal guys fighting for an extremely large facist empire against aliens and what is, as you said, hell. And you know who the real winner is? Tzeentch the Lord of change, whenever something changes state, living to dead, gas to liquid, etc. Tzeentch gains more power, so no matter what everyone is fuelling the fire of Chaos inadvertantly :)

Nah. The Real winners here are Khorne and Nurgle. Khorne loves him some bloodshed, and that has been an unending thing ever since the Eldar started jerking things around. Heck, the Emperor's crusade is probably the reason why Khorne is standing as the strongest Chaos god right now!

As for Nurgle, well death is part of his domain and you can't make Khorne stronger without helping dear old grampie Nurgle.

Boris Goodenough:

thaluikhain:
Ouch!

IMHO, he does the backstory a serious injustice. Or, rather, he's missed the opportunity to complain about the really specifically crap bits, rather than just the vague premise.

Like how Khorne lends his bloodletters to a psyker? Or that the Inquisition openly dares to accuse an Ultramarine Captain of heresy?

Actually, the Ultramarines are probably one of the chapters more likely to cooperate with Inquisition accusations. As for the open accusation, that's kind of what the Inquisition DOES!

Now, if it was a Space Wolf accepting the accusation, THEN we'd have something to gripe about!

What should be mentioned about WH40k is that it has as much depth as you are willing to put into it.Yeah it's a mindless slaughter that screams steroids and masculinity but it also shows a shade of gray in war that you'll see nowhere else.Nobody is right,nobody is wrong.Some just have it in their genes,others are so engulfed in fanatism that they can't see a bigger picture.Haters really can't give proper reasons why they don't enjoy the universe because they aren't as invested in big story.I suggest just saying "not my cup of tea" and stopping there.

The newer edition - the stupider WH40k is. I don't like to sound like an old fart, but hell, a few editions earlier WH40k setting was still raw, crude and unpolished. It was almost non-existent. We - players - had to invent some things on the fly. I mean : those of us who actually cared about background.

With each new edition WH40k grew bigger, darker and also more comical, stupider and unliveable - and that also affected computer games based on this setting.

"In the grim darkness of 40th milleniu" (to quote) there's no place for normal "things" like civilians. Everything is big, powerful, devastating, each thing bears a name like "Mortuus Gravus" or "Hellspawned semi-conductor" while on the other hand things like economy, politics or diplomacy doesn't exist at all.

WH40k setting sure had it's potential once, but lost it. Now it is only trampoline for "bigger, stronger, faster". Also, more armored and overpowered, like my friend here :

image

By the way :

Patrick Courtemanche
As a soldier with two tours in Afghanistan, the last one being combat, and a familiarity with the 40k universe I have to disagree with Mr. Croshaw.

What in God's Almighty name have Afghanistan to do with personal opinion about non existent sci-fi world ?

Metalix Knightmare:

Actually, the Ultramarines are probably one of the chapters more likely to cooperate with Inquisition accusations. As for the open accusation, that's kind of what the Inquisition DOES!

Now, if it was a Space Wolf accepting the accusation, THEN we'd have something to gripe about!

They mostly fix their own problems internally when it comes to heresy, let the chaplains and librarians do their job first before letting the inquisition drag a captain in for questioning. But I might be mistaken.

However I really hope the sequal will let Titus be a Grey Knight.

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