No Right Answer: George Lucas vs George Lucas

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George Lucas vs George Lucas

I hope you've done your homework and eaten your greens, because this is a very special episode of NRA. We decide once and for all, definitively, if the movies and expanded universe called "Star Wars" belongs to George Lucas, or if they should be removed much like an abused child from a drunk parent.

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WORK! damn it

EDIT: still not working :(

EDIT2: 8 mins after post, not working

Owning Star Wars merchandise is not the same as owning shares in Star Wars. I declare that argument invalid!!

If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

BUT, we would allow him to make another, slightly different one, and that is what George Lucas is doing with Star Wars. Yes there are people who will claim that the originals are better, but that doesnt matter at all because they are both there and available if you want to see them, people new to Star Wars will be able to compare them and make up there own minds.

I really have to agree with both of you to an extent. Yes, Star Wars is Lucas' property, but think about how much influence the fans have had over the Expanded Universe. He can't just shit on his own franchise and let his fans down like this. However, insane as he is, George Lucas was instrumental in bringing CGI to the level that it's at with the creation of ILM studios and the Star Wars prequels, and we should at least be grateful for that.

I still stand by my firm opinion of the original trilogy though: Lucas shouldn't have destroyed the original tapes. The way I see it, he could release two versions, an original, unedited version, and an edited version that contains whatever the fuck Lucas wants to put in it. Just touch up the picture and sound quality of the originals every time a new medium comes along, and release the edit alongside it. You would please more fans, and collectors would want both versions. This means more money for George in the end.

Compromise. That's really what we need when it comes to a situation like this.

Give him another decade and i would be surprised if we reconise the films...

Wouldnt be surprised if he starts writing in the cartoon series into the films next, if hes finished with the prequels.

Though I have heard jar-jar binks was basically blamed for the rise of the empire because fans hated him so much, fair enough that was in a new film.
But when he gets around the problem of messing up the cannon/story of the originals by altering the originals, then hes just asking for trouble from fans that grew up with them like i did.
After all, where does it stop?

And i dont see anyone else been allowed to release their films every couple of years with a few scenes altered, taken away or added, so why should lucas do it or be allowed to do it?

That was more cerebral than 99% of all argument I have heard about Lucas

NRA...very unfortunate acronym.

Anyway, "Star Wars" belongs to George Lucas - he was the Director.

However..."Empire/Return" isn't. The Exapanded Universe doesn't. The Prequels do.

The fans have no access of what he does to the bits he owns, but they do have access to the things they already own.

George Lucas, in front of Congress, May 3rd, 1988:
My name is George Lucas. I am a writer, director, and producer of motion pictures and Chairman of the Board of Lucasfilm Ltd., a multi-faceted entertainment corporation.

I am not here today as a writer-director, or as a producer, or as the chairman of a corporation. I've come as a citizen of what I believe to be a great society that is in need of a moral anchor to help define and protect its intellectual and cultural heritage. It is not being protected.

The destruction of our film heritage, which is the focus of concern today, is only the tip of the iceberg. American law does not protect our painters, sculptors, recording artists, authors, or filmmakers from having their lifework distorted, and their reputation ruined. If something is not done now to clearly state the moral rights of artists, current and future technologies will alter, mutilate, and destroy for future generations the subtle human truths and highest human feeling that talented individuals within our society have created.

A copyright is held in trust by its owner until it ultimately reverts to public domain. American works of art belong to the American public; they are part of our cultural history.

People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society. The preservation of our cultural heritage may not seem to be as politically sensitive an issue as "when life begins" or "when it should be appropriately terminated," but it is important because it goes to the heart of what sets mankind apart. Creative expression is at the core of our humanness. Art is a distinctly human endeavor. We must have respect for it if we are to have any respect for the human race.

These current defacements are just the beginning. Today, engineers with their computers can add color to black-and-white movies, change the soundtrack, speed up the pace, and add or subtract material to the philosophical tastes of the copyright holder. Tomorrow, more advanced technology will be able to replace actors with "fresher faces," or alter dialogue and change the movement of the actor's lips to match. It will soon be possible to create a new "original" negative with whatever changes or alterations the copyright holder of the moment desires. The copyright holders, so far, have not been completely diligent in preserving the original negatives of films they control. In order to reconstruct old negatives, many archivists have had to go to Eastern bloc countries where American films have been better preserved.

In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be "replaced" by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.

There is nothing to stop American films, records, books, and paintings from being sold to a foreign entity or egotistical gangsters and having them change our cultural heritage to suit their personal taste.

I accuse the companies and groups, who say that American law is sufficient, of misleading the Congress and the People for their own economic self-interest.

I accuse the corporations, who oppose the moral rights of the artist, of being dishonest and insensitive to American cultural heritage and of being interested only in their quarterly bottom line, and not in the long-term interest of the Nation.

The public's interest is ultimately dominant over all other interests. And the proof of that is that even a copyright law only permits the creators and their estate a limited amount of time to enjoy the economic fruits of that work.

There are those who say American law is sufficient. That's an outrage! It's not sufficient! If it were sufficient, why would I be here? Why would John Houston have been so studiously ignored when he protested the colorization of "The Maltese Falcon?" Why are films cut up and butchered?

Attention should be paid to this question of our soul, and not simply to accounting procedures. Attention should be paid to the interest of those who are yet unborn, who should be able to see this generation as it saw itself, and the past generation as it saw itself.

I hope you have the courage to lead America in acknowledging the importance of American art to the human race, and accord the proper protection for the creators of that art-as it is accorded them in much of the rest of the world communities.

http://savestarwars.com/lucasspeechagainstspecialedition.html

And George Lucas has said that the new versions are the only versions.

"Whatever has happened in my quest for innovation has been part of my quest for immaculate reality"

"It's all being buried with me, ... All copies of the two trilogies will be brought to my gravesite within one month of my death and laid to rest with me."

"After that only the VHS and DVD copies that people have purchased will be left, ... That's not a problem, as each VHS copy has been encrypted to write commands to any VCR that tries to play them after a certain date to erase the tape. Any dubbed copies of these VHS tapes also contain the encryption. DVD copies of movies were easier to protect. After the same date, the DVDs simply won't play, and will come out as digital gibberish if people attempt to copy them after that date."

Lucas is now simply Miss Haversham sifting over the crumbling wedding cake, trying to put the bride and groom back together again.

Lucas only directed the first movie and wasn't given complete control, the next two had different directors. He should have stepped back and let someone else direct the new ones.

adamthecg:
If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

...

Actually, yeah, we would. Lets take a different artist, lets take Da Vinci. Half of his stuff looks unfinished, and if he say wnated to come back and add some colour to his self Portrait, would you honestly tell him "no, stop, you cant do that!"

Now yes, you can argue that something needs to be taken from someone for fear they may harm it (say a baby from their clinically insane mother), but its an artists choice to debauch their art however they like. I mean, if they dont have the right, then why should we as the not original artist have the right to take that art and make it something else entirely (see the battlestar galatica last supper).

Just think of any, ANY bad fan fiction. thats a non original artist shitting all over the original artists creation, but those have right to exist. Just taking this extended universe thing, I've ready some TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE extended universe novels and comics, but those seem to have right to exist because "its what the fans wants, and the fans know whats best".

adamthecg:
they are both there and available if you want to see them, people new to Star Wars will be able to compare them and make up there own minds.

But the originals are no longer in print, and George has refused to donate a copy of the them to the National Film Registry, which he helped create. Lucas has stated that he would like the original versions to disappear, and that once the existing VHS and Laserdisc releases deteriorate he hopes no one will even remember the originals existed, except as "rough drafts" of the Special Editions. I think this is robbing the world of it's cultural history.

And, because it has to be done when talking about Star Wars.

Edit: Oh yeah, without the Expanded Universe, there are no prequels.

The_root_of_all_evil:
And, because it has to be done when talking about Star Wars.

Edit: Oh yeah, without the Expanded Universe, there are no prequels.

half in the bag (a show by the people who made the Plinkett reviews) recently released a double episode about the People vs George Lucas. Very interesting discussion there.

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-the-people-vs-george-lucas-and-star-wars-discussion/

Duffeknol:

half in the bag (a show by the people who made the Plinkett reviews) recently released a double episode about the People vs George Lucas. Very interesting discussion there.

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-the-people-vs-george-lucas-and-star-wars-discussion/

Ooh, cheers :)

Not sure on the Half in the Bag lot though. They dissed Sucker Punch. ;)

The_root_of_all_evil:

Duffeknol:

half in the bag (a show by the people who made the Plinkett reviews) recently released a double episode about the People vs George Lucas. Very interesting discussion there.

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-the-people-vs-george-lucas-and-star-wars-discussion/

Ooh, cheers :)

Not sure on the Half in the Bag lot though. They dissed Sucker Punch. ;)

And Plinkett bashed Baby's Day Out. Redlettermedia is still the best thing to happen to the internet ever, hehehe.

Let the war over nostalgia begin!

Anyway, as a fan of Star Wars I don't really mind, as I enjoyed both versions. I was lucky enough to be born in the middle of both of them, and not get caught up in the rivaling over the two.

I love everything about Star Wars, and I found myself rooting for the clones more-so than the rebels.

That said, I do love the originals more than the prequels, but just barely. They are both good in their own right, and I enjoy the spike marathons of them.

I'm fine with Lucas keeping it, so long as he loans it out. In other words, I can make money off of creating Star Wars stuff but he gets half the profits. He can even have an official "canon" seal so that we all know what's official or not.

canadamus_prime:
Owning Star Wars merchandise is not the same as owning shares in Star Wars. I declare that argument invalid!!

Yeah, that argument bothered me. I really don't get where he was coming from.

The_root_of_all_evil:
Snipperoo

So. . . wait. George Lucas went from "Protector of all that is sacred and holy about film! Defender of original, unedited copies! Righteous warrior to fight worthless edits made solely to make money!" to "Crazy man, after re-editing film trilogy hundreds of times, wishes for every last copy of his movies to burn when he dies."?

OT: Pretty funny, and I see both sides. Lucas is within his legal rights to do what he likes with Star Wars, but he really shouldn't.

The_root_of_all_evil:
Uber Snip

I enjoy how much Lucas manages to contradict himself in his statements. Another thing you'd be interested in is how much he claims to have been in his "original vision" was actually developed after the films were first released.

A big example is the planet of Coruscant. It was originally created in 1991 by auther Timothy Zahn for the Thrawn Trilogy of novels in the Expanded Universe.

George Lucas took the planet, and turned it into the city from Bladerunner, all the while claiming it was his own idea.

Same goes for the Mandalorians. First major appearance of the Mandalorians was in the Star Wars Marvel Comics, but the name was originally from Lucas. However, the main culture and planetary history was made by Marvel. Not that Lucas would let you know that.

As for the video. Do you know how hard it is to get the original versions of the films? Lucas might not have destroyed them, but he sure as hell isn't giving them to the public. That 2006 DVD copy of the original films? It's not the original, it is a copy of the 1993 Laserdisk edition.

The only copies of the original you can find (and they are hard to find) are the VHS tapes that were shown in the video.

shrekfan246:

So. . . wait. George Lucas went from "Protector of all that is sacred and holy about film! Defender of original, unedited copies! Righteous warrior to fight worthless edits made solely to make money!" to "Crazy man, after re-editing film trilogy hundreds of times, wishes for every last copy of his movies to burn when he dies."?

That's why everyone gets so annoyed. The Master has turned against the Student to take up the Dark Side.

Soviet Heavy:

A big example is the planet of Coruscant. It was originally created in 1991 by auther Timothy Zahn for the Thrawn Trilogy of novels in the Expanded Universe.

And it also fails science in the same way as Twiglet does. Coruscant is a planet wide city - which leaves no room for food production/sewage etc.

Soviet Heavy:

The only copies of the original you can find (and they are hard to find) are the VHS tapes that were shown in the video.

Used to be...

http://www.starwarsuncut.com/

Ooops...nope...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phantom_Edit

http://swrevisited.wordpress.com/about-revisited/

But they're all classed as "pirates".

The_root_of_all_evil:

That's why everyone gets so annoyed. The Master has turned against the Student to take up the Dark Side.

I never realized just quite how far he had fallen. I mean, I knew he was pretty much crazy nowadays, but I never realized that he used to be an entirely sane, reasonable movie maker. I guess that's what happens when you grow up in the 90's. Thank you for enlightening me.

shrekfan246:
Thank you for enlightening me.

My day is complete :)

Only a couple of million to go.

I think Kyle should have gotten more points for his final argument.
Alright, I guess it's my turn. I like the original versions of the original trilogy, I think that the prequels would have been considered crap regardless of how they stood on their own given what came before them, and that they're okay. Nothing more, nothing less.
As for Lucas... He's made a lot of mistakes and a lot of great things and should just walk away from the movies. There comes a time when you just have to give in to the fanboys. It's extremely rare, but this might be one of those cases.

Nobody hates Star Wars more than George Lucas.

OT: Here's my thing. I don't give half a damn how many shitty new editions he comes out with that keep adding horrible shit to fantastic movies. My problem comes from there not being any more releases of the original versions. I honestly don't understand why we can't have both, they'd both sell like crazy. I think putting out the original versions on DVD would go a long way towards appeasing we the fans.

Nice... I actually have that box set of VHS it showed for half a second XD The box bit isn't in the best of shape, but I got it at a goodwill for five bucks.

What Lucas is doing is like a author releasing a new version of the same book every few years. Noooooooooooo. You can't do that. Once it's out it's out. It's done. End of discussion. It's art, and you can't modify art once it is done. I mean sure leeeeeeegally you can, but sure as hell doesn't mean you should.

Then it stops being art and starts being just a way to squeeze money out of...... oh I see what your getting at Lucas.

adamthecg:
If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

BUT, we would allow him to make another, slightly different one, and that is what George Lucas is doing with Star Wars. Yes there are people who will claim that the originals are better, but that doesnt matter at all because they are both there and available if you want to see them, people new to Star Wars will be able to compare them and make up there own minds.

We wouldn't allow him only because he no longer owns the originals, but other then that good comparison.

Ehhh... personally I think taking away intellectual property from it's creator (somehow) would set a dangerous precedent, inmates running the asylum isn't always going to work out happily.

image

George Lucas loves to build a world like Star Wars, but like the man-child he is, he loves destroying it far more than he ever did building it.

adamthecg:
If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

BUT, we would allow him to make another, slightly different one, and that is what George Lucas is doing with Star Wars. Yes there are people who will claim that the originals are better, but that doesnt matter at all because they are both there and available if you want to see them, people new to Star Wars will be able to compare them and make up there own minds.

The point of like a third of the video was that most originals are dead or dying and he's only releasing the new versions.

Is that true? I have no idea, don't really care, just wanted to note that they discussed this part >_>.

monnes:

adamthecg:
they are both there and available if you want to see them, people new to Star Wars will be able to compare them and make up there own minds.

But the originals are no longer in print, and George has refused to donate a copy of the them to the National Film Registry, which he helped create. Lucas has stated that he would like the original versions to disappear, and that once the existing VHS and Laserdisc releases deteriorate he hopes no one will even remember the originals existed, except as "rough drafts" of the Special Editions. I think this is robbing the world of it's cultural history.

I'd chuckle if a crazed fan broke into his house and stole the originals :P. I could see it happening, assuming he hasn't burned them already.

Lucas owns it. He created the idea and without him their wouldn't be an idea, we can't snatch his stuff off him no matter how much he destroys it, we can just stop paying him to do so or even be content with the world an universe that we love has been created by his incessant desire to make money out of his idea. Without his pressure and marketing and advertising all the spin-offs books and games might not have been created in the first place and Star Wars would just be some successful film that people remember as a great film but don't do a whole lot about

Fun fact, George Lucas in the 80's would comdemn modern George Lucas. He held a speech saying that people shouldn't do what he's done to the Star Wars franchise.

I've got the six year old dvd box set of Star Wars and a 4 disc set of Indiana Jones, the forth disc is bonus features and nothing more, So I don't give a fuck.

First off, I didn't realize that the show was called NRA. Now I'll think of the National Rifle Association every time I think about it.

Secondly, guess who couldn't care less about Star Wars? This guy! Haven't seen them, and will never see them. Why? Because being able to piss any geek off simply by telling them that I have not seen any of the movies in the series is worth SO MUCH MORE then the movies could ever give me. I've had people tell me they would kill me if I didn't watch them, and some say they were going to kidnap me and force me to watch them.

But, from a legal standpoint, George Lucas is the owner of the Star Wars property. He can do whatever he wants to them. That doesn't mean he SHOULD, and I think that they should also print the 'classic' versions on DVD and blu-ray and such. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to do what he wants to the series.

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