No Right Answer: George Lucas vs George Lucas

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If George Lucas is intentionally making his movies worse (and it's tempting to think that he is), he is officially the greatest troll of all time.

All arguments would be rendered invalid if George would just release a DVD or BluRay version of the original versions with remastering. But we won't ever get those, because Lucas is a jackass who hates his fans.

Seriously, that's all we want and all it will take.

I don't like to debate this, because it leads to my most hated point of Boba Fett's origin story being retconned. Lucas himself didn't even care about Fett until people latched onto his awesomeness, and by then a whole trilogy of books (condoned by Lucas himself) had written his backstory in an awesome way. Then he decides to rewrite it in Episode 2... fucking a.

Once an artist releases a painting to the world s/he can no longer touch it. The frame it is in can change the lighting its presented under can change the wall on which it is hung can change, but the painting itself can not. If Lucas did not want to piss off people like me he would have released the original theatrical cuts on the same bluray discs. (take notes LOTR your pretty pissing me off too). I think its some sick thing that Lucas needs to live up to the commercial for the last VHS set of the original trilogy that says it will be the last time you will be able to purchase the original theatrical versions.

It should have been George Lucas who passed away instead of Steve Jobs. The cruelest truth here is that when Lucas DOES die, fans will likely rejoice. Not out of hate for Lucas but of love of Star Wars.

I like to think that Lucas is still just driving his original agenda from way back when he made that speech. He's just gonna keep pushing until there's no choice but to make a law to prohibit this kind of shit from happening. And when he dies, every version is going to be released alongside of a documentary depicting how far was needed to go, so no one will ever forget.

...look it's either that or this:

NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE.

You watch, now that they've sold you newer and newer versions over and over again.....they'll just sell you the original in a Star Wars Classic box for even more.

There shall be no discussion.
We shall simply remove the heads of the opposition and win.

Slap Lucas in the loony bin, find and destroy all non-original works, restart the space program to hollow out the moon and create a non-functional replica of the Death Star from our Moon.
Somewhere along the line we must have subjugated all the people of earth under a single rule, be it as authoritarian as it may be, but there will be world peace, with occasional blood shed by anyone who still tries to oppose you.

Avatar Roku:

canadamus_prime:
Owning Star Wars merchandise is not the same as owning shares in Star Wars. I declare that argument invalid!!

Yeah, that argument bothered me. I really don't get where he was coming from.

He kind of lost the metaphor there. The metaphor, I reckon, is that, if a story is like a company, then your emotional investment in that story is like buying stocks in that story. If that story turns out to have a poorly thought out ending that ruins the entire experience, your investment is lost, and that is like if your stocks had plummetted. His point is that the audience is as invested in a story as the creators, perhaps more, and just as stockholders have some say into what a company does, so should fans.

Comparing George Lucas to Vincint Van Goh. Well, didn't expect that.

I'm going to paraphrase what Susan Arendt said in the pod cast. Do whatever you want to the movies, so long as you let me have a choice to purchase the original, unaltered ones, otherwise you're a dick.

The fact that he wants everyone to forget the original ones is what bothers me.

I will not say that I like anything that George Lucas has done to the films that we all love so much. However there are books that conform to the prequel trilogy that have since been published that I love and I feel that without some of these things George has done those books may not have been written.

I just want to say. George, please throw us old school purist nerds a bone. Give us a box set of episodes 4 through 6 (we don't care about 1-3) with cleaned up visuals and nice crisp cgi effects, but all of the exact same scenes and dialog that were released theatrically. You can even leave the subtitle on Star Wars. Charge us too much for them. Let us prove with our wallets that we really do love the originals. Then do whatever you want to other releases. Just sell us our childhoods the way we want to remember them.

canadamus_prime:
Owning Star Wars merchandise is not the same as owning shares in Star Wars. I declare that argument invalid!!

He is referring to owning emotional shares in the Franchise. We all have watched the movies many times and have grown attached to it. I grew up watching Star Wars! I invested the hours that "normal" kids spent out doors playing catch with their dads in my living room watching these lovable movies with my own father! If I cannot sit down and watch the versions that I know and love with my kids, I will be very pissed and curse your already vile name, George Walton Lucas Jr.!

Nicolaus99:
It should have been George Lucas who passed away instead of Steve Jobs. The cruelest truth here is that when Lucas DOES die, fans will likely rejoice. Not out of hate for Lucas but of love of Star Wars.

That's pretty harsh considering it's a piece of influential fiction VS a human life. And it's not like there isn't an army of suits to take his place and fuck up Star Wars some more "completing his lifework", maybe going through every sketch and cut scene, pad them out with exposition drops and make an alt universe saga.

People can be that greedy, no doubt.

emeraldrafael:

adamthecg:
If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

...

Actually, yeah, we would. Lets take a different artist, lets take Da Vinci. Half of his stuff looks unfinished, and if he say wnated to come back and add some colour to his self Portrait, would you honestly tell him "no, stop, you cant do that!"

Now yes, you can argue that something needs to be taken from someone for fear they may harm it (say a baby from their clinically insane mother), but its an artists choice to debauch their art however they like. I mean, if they dont have the right, then why should we as the not original artist have the right to take that art and make it something else entirely (see the battlestar galatica last supper).

Just think of any, ANY bad fan fiction. thats a non original artist shitting all over the original artists creation, but those have right to exist. Just taking this extended universe thing, I've ready some TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE extended universe novels and comics, but those seem to have right to exist because "its what the fans wants, and the fans know whats best".

But see if daVinci came back determined to destroy the Mona Lisa and St. Peter's we would definitely have a problem with that. Or if he felt like drawing a Hitler stache on the Mona Lisa.

Star Wars definitely belongs to the public, not in a legal sense, but that morally it would be wrong to let the original movies be destroyed in all formats. Lucas may think of the originals as a rough draft but it was much better in my mind than the Greedo shoots first, CGI Jabba, Vader yelling "NOOOO". And as a trilogy that culturally defined millions of people we deserve to have the true originals.

adamthecg:
If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

Only because of the legal issues surrounding the fact that he doesn't legally own them anymore and I'm not sure what the established rules are on reclamation of property upon resurrection.

Otherwise, I'd certainly be okay with it.

actar411:

canadamus_prime:
Owning Star Wars merchandise is not the same as owning shares in Star Wars. I declare that argument invalid!!

He is referring to owning emotional shares in the Franchise. We all have watched the movies many times and have grown attached to it. I grew up watching Star Wars! I invested the hours that "normal" kids spent out doors playing catch with their dads in my living room watching these lovable movies with my own father! If I cannot sit down and watch the versions that I know and love with my kids, I will be very pissed and curse your already vile name, George Walton Lucas Jr.!

Too bad emotional shares don't actually count for anything, certainly not in the real world they don't. Don't get me wrong, I'm don't like what he's doing to the films any more than you do, I just recognize a battle I cannot win when I see one. ...at least not with words anyway.

Incidentally, is George Lucas' middle name really Walton? 'Cause that's my surname.

Once any object goes into the Public Domain, it gains a value.

Piracy steals that value for free - you're not stealing the product, you're stealing the value.

If the creator wants to decrease the value to increase the sales, then he is engaged in fraud.

If the owner, rather than the creator, wants to do that, then he is engaged in vandalism and should be stopped.

Every writer, artist, scientist, songwriter wishes they could change those few niggling bits, but no piece of work has ever been perfected.

If Patty and Mildred J. Hill - the original writers - wanted to change the lyrics to "Happy Birthday" (and not allow any new versions), or if Time Warner changed the lyrics, they would be engaged in vandalism or fraud...Despite both of them having the rights to do so legally.

(Look it up, if you have "Happy Birthday" in a film, you must pay Time Warner upto $5,000 for its use, and then it's required to appear in the credits.)

Signa:
All arguments would be rendered invalid if George would just release a DVD or BluRay version of the original versions with remastering. But we won't ever get those, because Lucas is a jackass who hates his fans.

Although to be perfectly honest, I can't say I blame him. _

canadamus_prime:

Signa:
All arguments would be rendered invalid if George would just release a DVD or BluRay version of the original versions with remastering. But we won't ever get those, because Lucas is a jackass who hates his fans.

Although to be perfectly honest, I can't say I blame him. _

yes and no. I'm sure the hard-core fans have alienated him multiple times, but when it comes down to it, the ones that buy new edition after new edition (without the direct hassling) are still looking for one particular version to complete their collection. These are the people he should be catering to, because there are a lot of them. They are the ones that made him as rich as he is, and he practically owes them it. It won't be a fruitless venture either. I'd be shocked if he still didn't pull a profit after meeting demand.

Laxman9292:

emeraldrafael:

adamthecg:
If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

...

Actually, yeah, we would. Lets take a different artist, lets take Da Vinci. Half of his stuff looks unfinished, and if he say wnated to come back and add some colour to his self Portrait, would you honestly tell him "no, stop, you cant do that!"

Now yes, you can argue that something needs to be taken from someone for fear they may harm it (say a baby from their clinically insane mother), but its an artists choice to debauch their art however they like. I mean, if they dont have the right, then why should we as the not original artist have the right to take that art and make it something else entirely (see the battlestar galatica last supper).

Just think of any, ANY bad fan fiction. thats a non original artist shitting all over the original artists creation, but those have right to exist. Just taking this extended universe thing, I've ready some TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE extended universe novels and comics, but those seem to have right to exist because "its what the fans wants, and the fans know whats best".

But see if daVinci came back determined to destroy the Mona Lisa and St. Peter's we would definitely have a problem with that. Or if he felt like drawing a Hitler stache on the Mona Lisa.

Star Wars definitely belongs to the public, not in a legal sense, but that morally it would be wrong to let the original movies be destroyed in all formats. Lucas may think of the originals as a rough draft but it was much better in my mind than the Greedo shoots first, CGI Jabba, Vader yelling "NOOOO". And as a trilogy that culturally defined millions of people we deserve to have the true originals.

Morals mean nothing in the face of the law and money, and they never should. Everyone's morals are different, so you cant fall back on a logic and standpoint of something so circumstantial. Lucas is the owner legally, so he can do whatever he wants with the originals, even if it means he decides to wipe his ass with them, its his right. its as simple as that.

Laxman9292:

But see if daVinci came back determined to destroy the Mona Lisa and St. Peter's we would definitely have a problem with that. Or if he felt like drawing a Hitler stache on the Mona Lisa.

Star Wars definitely belongs to the public, not in a legal sense, but that morally it would be wrong to let the original movies be destroyed in all formats. Lucas may think of the originals as a rough draft but it was much better in my mind than the Greedo shoots first, CGI Jabba, Vader yelling "NOOOO". And as a trilogy that culturally defined millions of people we deserve to have the true originals.

The thing is, DaVinci wouldn't be destroying the work, just modifying it. Maybe he didn't want to paint it that way (assuming that rumors of his homosexuality are to be believed) and wanted to do it the way he wanted from the start.

Should we stop him because a lot of people like it that way? I would say no, because it wouldn't be what he initially wanted.

Plus I think the argument works more-so with Davinci's unfinished inventions. Basically what I said before; do we stop him because others like his work the way it is? I again say no.

And it doesn't really "belong to the public". It is available to the public yes, but surely it can't belong to everyone. It would only belong to George if anyone were to own it.

And you're argument is rendered invalid right here:

Laxman9292:

but it was much better in my mind...

And I'm sure (not really, but I have strong feeling about it) that's how Lucas feels with his actual, original work.

I'm sure you have a lot of ideas that would make Star Wars "better", but so does every fan, and differently.

If he wants to give out the originals, that's up to him. No one deserves it (hell half of the fans complaining shouldn't get it).

In my mind, no one should "deserve" it unless they ask nicely, and/or prove why they deserve it.

adamthecg:
If Vincent Van Gogh Came back from the dead and started adding to his paintings, would we be saying that its his right to do so? Of course not...

BUT, we would allow him to make another, slightly different one, and that is what George Lucas is doing with Star Wars. Yes there are people who will claim that the originals are better, but that doesnt matter at all because they are both there and available if you want to see them, people new to Star Wars will be able to compare them and make up there own minds.

I think the point is that the originals are NOT there. Because the old, original versions are not being released in new formats.

I mean is it possible to get the original movies on DVD or Blu Ray? I mean, the originals.
That means the original actor for Empire's emperor rather than the guy who did RoTJ. And that means old man ghost at RotJ ending instead of hayden. I don't think you can.

Lucas should just get over his insecurities and stop trying to fix things that aren't broken.

It's as some have said: George Lucas might legally own Star Wars, but the first three films are NOT entirely his creation. He fought with many people over how the first one was created, and he didn't even direct the second or the third one (and he had others helping him with the script). He undoubtedly deserves a lot of credit for the first three films, but he did not make them on his own, and indeed, there is some speculation that had he been allowed full run of the ship, the original three films might have turned out quite a bit worse. Starkiller, anyone? The original trilogy was created by quite a few people, often with different ideas, arguing and compromising and finding novel solutions along the way. It was an organic process. The new films however, are entirely made by George Lucas, with no one challenging him or even offering up a better idea once in a while. Adversity breeds innovation, but with George and his limitless budget, cowering staff, and legions of computers allowing him to do whatever he wanted, when he wanted, created the mess known as the prequels. He should have been a PRODUCER on the prequels and given the directing/casting calls to someone else.

I can't watch this video for some reason. It just spins the loading symbol indefinitely. I've tried different browsers, but no luck. The other videos on the site seem to work fine.

zelda2fanboy:
I can't watch this video for some reason. It just spins the loading symbol indefinitely. I've tried different browsers, but no luck. The other videos on the site seem to work fine.

Same here. Glad to know it's not just me.

EDIT: Wait, it finally played. It just takes a few minutes for some reason.

They were chugging vodka.

This gets into arguements about the nature of art, and at what point a creator should lose the rights to his own creation, if ever.

For the most part this has been straightforward, an artist creates a physical object like a statue, he loses the right to modify that statue once he sells it. He can't for example walk into the town square and decide as the original creator to add thirteen penises to the exterior when he no longer owns it.

Even when it's come to intellectual properties, the rights of an original creator to control their work have been very limited. A playwright might create and sell a play, but up until recently he couldn't really enter a theater and influance how someone else was going to perform the work, and say demand a given director do things due to changes he decides afterwards he wants to make, or to demand that everything about a play follow very specific requirements. Things like this had been tried for hundreds of years, and have generally failed until fairly recently.

In the case of an ongoing intellectual property like Star Wars it has come into being at a time where we have a lot of communications technology and an established enough legal system for the original creator to demand, and enforce, management rights over the idea, including forcing retroactive changes, comissioning creators to produce canon work, and then later cutting those creators out of the canon, and so on.

As a work Star Wars has gotten big enough, and influances enough people who are invested in it (either materially, or simply emotionally) that I think it needs to be handled with kid gloves, especially seeing as it could form a lasting monument that could endure as long as any statue or painting...

In looking at George Lucas' antics I mostly look towards how he has sold the rights to make official sequels multiple times, and then proceeded to invoke his rights as creator to invalidate those works retroactively, creating tons of havoc within the work itself, and quite possibly inflicting material damage through merchandise and to the professional credability of creators, as the value of non-canon material oftentimes depreciates (and being kicked from the canon can reflect negatively on a creator).

I would point towards how George Lucas once sold the rights to create a sequel in the form of a series of young adult novels. "Prophets Of The Dark Side", "The Glove Of Darth Vader", and other books were part of this series. These books were then declared non-canon through the writings of guys like Timothy Zahn. This is to say nothing of numerous other people working in the so-called "Expanded Universe" who had their own works effectively castrated
by George Lucas' own work on the Star Wars prequels.

Truthfully, it's hard to say what should be done with Star Wars, as I think it's a fairly unique phenomena, however I think it's too much to remain in the hands of one man. George Lucas might have been the creator, but left to his devices I think we're liable to see Star Wars destroyed (it's already happening) rather than becoming the enduring momument it has the potential to be.

Really, I think there is no analogy for this situation, I think something unique should probably be done with Star Wars, and that should form the foundation for similar situations that might arise in the future.

I'm tired, and I get a bit crazy when I'm fatigued, but I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of the United States Goverment becoming the official owner and manager of certain properties like this, giving a percentage of generated profits to the original creators (as the original creators) until their death, establishing canon, and carefully operating to maintain it and expand the work. The profits to be made from the IP covering the expense of managing it, with the excess going into the national debt or whatever.

Truthfully goverment appointed committees don't strike me as being good for anything, but when I consider that a step up from George Lucas managing this, that should say something.

In the end there is a point where a work grows beyond a single man, sometimes within his lifetime. Left to his devices George Lucas is liable to make this into a bigger and bigger mess.

FARSCAPE!!!

"Can I get a hell yeah?"

"There's life out here dad. All kinds of amazing, alien, psychotic life. And its in Technicolor."

Nicolaus99:
--snipsies--

A Shining Force avatar?!

Can I get another hell yeah?

As for this whole discussion on SW. George Lucas had a great idea back in the seventies and pulled together a brilliant crew of people to make it come to life. He's good as a producer and creative engine but he's no writer or director, not of SW movies anyway. He's proven it definitively with the prequels.

Episode 2 is a mess, there's a load of good scenes that show Padme and Anakin interacting affectionately in the extended cut that should've been in the theatrical version instead of the mewling overwrought declarations of love he favoured over them.

If he's ever going to make an episode 7 and beyond I hope he gets other writers and directors to handle those parts of the enterprise like he did with the original trilogy.

Does that mean he owns it or not? That's a discussion on semantics that really doesn't matter.

Vortigar:
FARSCAPE!!!

"Can I get a hell yeah?"

"There's life out here dad. All kinds of amazing, alien, psychotic life. And its in Technicolor."

Nicolaus99:
--snipsies--

A Shining Force avatar?!

Can I get another hell yeah?

Hell yeah! Old School 4 Life.

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