Dark Souls Review

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I'm dissapointed that this game will probably never get a PC release and also I'm dissapointed that I don't have a console, but more importantly, I'm dissapointed that, even if I had a console, I don't have the money to buy the game.

ccdohl:
[quote="ZeroMachine" post="6.318052.12959111"][quote="ZeroMachine" post="6.318052.12956731"]

Well, congratulations on your many successes in Dark Souls! I'm glad that the game has been so fair to you (not easy though, not easy).

You have a point. They have to make it clear that the game is winnable by saying that it is fair. A game known for its toughness would sound like a waste of time without that assurance that, when you encounter something, it will be something that can be overcome.

Still, that alone doesn't make it any more fair than any other game, even other games that are considered hard.

I think the fairness comes from the fact that you have a lot of control over your character.

Take modern shooters for example. You have a gun, you have grenades, and you can sprint around a bit faster. Sometimes you can hide behind walls better. The problem is all you can do is hide and peek out to shoot every once in a while. You can't do anything special to kill the hoards of enemies peppering your general area, just peek out and shoot, or toss a grenade once in a while.

If enemies suddenly start getting better AI, hitting harder, or if ranged enemies pepper you with bullets while melee enemies flank you, it suddenly becomes really unfair because there's not a lot you can do.

In dark souls you can get the character to do pretty much anything. You have a lot of ways to dodge, you can carry 4 weapons around at once ( 2 in 1 hand and 2 in the other), you can switch to new weapons anywhere you want, you can wield all weapons with either 1 hand or 2 hands (you can even fight with a shield as your primary weapon), you can block, parry, and shield bash your enemy, you can do a kick to take down enemies who like to use shields a lot (or a fancy dodging move if you're using rapiers or scimitars), you can do a powerful jump attack, and you have a large variety of spells and miracles that can help you.

You have a ton of tools for handling any situation, not just a light attack, hard attack, and block.

This is the best game I've played since...

...

...

This is the best game I've played.

ccdohl:

ZeroMachine:

I currently have 40+ hours sunk into the game.

There isn't a single obstacle I haven't been able to overcome with work, practice, and patience.

I say again, fair =/= easy. NOTHING in the game is "cheap". If you get swarmed by enemies, that's because you didn't prepare properly.

The game requires skill. It is, admittedly, unfair to people who aren't good at games, but as for what you said with it being like "every other action role player game", think of it this way: you don't die dozens of times in those games, on average. They need to make it clear that, even though this game will tear your guts out and eat them with a nice side of onion rings, it is fair and with patience everything can eventually be practically easy.

Right now, I fly through most sections of the game. The only areas that give me trouble are new ones... and Blight Town but fuck that place. Pack up on purple moss before you go there.

As someone said earlier, it's chess, not checkers. It's a good, if not entirely apt metaphor. A brute force attack on the game just won't work. You gotta be smart, predict your enemies, learn their patterns, and then fuck 'em up when they fuck up.

Well, congratulations on your many successes in Dark Souls! I'm glad that the game has been so fair to you (not easy though, not easy).

You have a point. They have to make it clear that the game is winnable by saying that it is fair. A game known for its toughness would sound like a waste of time without that assurance that, when you encounter something, it will be something that can be overcome.

Still, that alone doesn't make it any more fair than any other game, even other games that are considered hard.

... I'm not clear in what your point is.

You said the game wasn't fair, and that made it hard. Then, the complaint was that it might be fair, but not beatable. Now, it's beatable, but not easy? Need help moving those goalposts?
I

ccdohl:
Why does everyone always call these games fair? I played a game where ghosts come through the walls and hit you from every direction, dragon bosses and spear bosses one-shot you if they get the right hit, some monsters are untargetable, and poisonous wasps come at you in unlimited numbers. Sure, it's a fantastic game, but it's far from fair just because these things can be avoided, often with luck playing the biggest part of that avoidance.

If being beatable means that something is fair, then I'm not sure what constitutes an unfair game.

While there are some issues in the game that certainly aren't fair, none of the instances you described are among them. For the ghosts, the ambushes can be spotted going in, and the ghosts are slow enough that backing out again (provided you weren't rushing full speed down unknown hallways) should not be an issue.

For all of the one hit kill still, much of it hard, but much of it also has very specific counters, be it in certain spot where the enemy can't hit you, or in watching the enemies movements, as all instant kill attacks have distinct animations warning you in advance to get the hell out of the way.

Don't know why you mentioned the wasps at all. Sure they're unlimited, but there's only a couple spawn points for them, they only come 2 at a time, and they take forever getting across the map to you. And once they do, they're rather weak anyways. The presence of those wasps actually saved my ass, with the ring that heals you a little with every kill, they're unlimited numbers kept me alive.

And nothing is untargetable, not being able to lock on to something is not the same as not being able to be targeted. But very few things have that trait, and it doesn't make for much of a difference in the places that it does. It only really sucks when dealing with it in PvP.

Jadak:

ccdohl:
Why does everyone always call these games fair? I played a game where ghosts come through the walls and hit you from every direction, dragon bosses and spear bosses one-shot you if they get the right hit, some monsters are untargetable, and poisonous wasps come at you in unlimited numbers. Sure, it's a fantastic game, but it's far from fair just because these things can be avoided, often with luck playing the biggest part of that avoidance.

If being beatable means that something is fair, then I'm not sure what constitutes an unfair game.

While there are some issues in the game that certainly aren't fair, none of the instances you described are among them. For the ghosts, the ambushes can be spotted going in, and the ghosts are slow enough that backing out again (provided you weren't rushing full speed down unknown hallways) should not be an issue.

For all of the one hit kill still, much of it hard, but much of it also has very specific counters, be it in certain spot where the enemy can't hit you, or in watching the enemies movements, as all instant kill attacks have distinct animations warning you in advance to get the hell out of the way.

Don't know why you mentioned the wasps at all. Sure they're unlimited, but there's only a couple spawn points for them, they only come 2 at a time, and they take forever getting across the map to you. And once they do, they're rather weak anyways. The presence of those wasps actually saved my ass, with the ring that heals you a little with every kill, they're unlimited numbers kept me alive.

And nothing is untargetable, not being able to lock on to something is not the same as not being able to be targeted. But very few things have that trait, and it doesn't make for much of a difference in the places that it does. It only really sucks when dealing with it in PvP.

K. So what's your point? Yea, I know that you can beat those bosses, and the ghosts, and the wasps. Good use of equivocation. Target is not the same as lock on to you, fine. I have to fight some enemies without the benefit of locking on. Because those things can be overcome, describing the game as fair is either inaccurate, or pointless.

If fair just means that you can beat the game, then wooptie doo, every other game is fair too. If fair means that the odds are always even, then it's inaccurate because sometimes I can't lock on (using the implemented target lock), there are two guys, or there are bosses that will one-shot me, and the odds are not even.

davisjones1287:

ccdohl:

ZeroMachine:

I currently have 40+ hours sunk into the game.

There isn't a single obstacle I haven't been able to overcome with work, practice, and patience.

I say again, fair =/= easy. NOTHING in the game is "cheap". If you get swarmed by enemies, that's because you didn't prepare properly.

The game requires skill. It is, admittedly, unfair to people who aren't good at games, but as for what you said with it being like "every other action role player game", think of it this way: you don't die dozens of times in those games, on average. They need to make it clear that, even though this game will tear your guts out and eat them with a nice side of onion rings, it is fair and with patience everything can eventually be practically easy.

Right now, I fly through most sections of the game. The only areas that give me trouble are new ones... and Blight Town but fuck that place. Pack up on purple moss before you go there.

As someone said earlier, it's chess, not checkers. It's a good, if not entirely apt metaphor. A brute force attack on the game just won't work. You gotta be smart, predict your enemies, learn their patterns, and then fuck 'em up when they fuck up.

Well, congratulations on your many successes in Dark Souls! I'm glad that the game has been so fair to you (not easy though, not easy).

You have a point. They have to make it clear that the game is winnable by saying that it is fair. A game known for its toughness would sound like a waste of time without that assurance that, when you encounter something, it will be something that can be overcome.

Still, that alone doesn't make it any more fair than any other game, even other games that are considered hard.

... I'm not clear in what your point is.

You said the game wasn't fair, and that made it hard. Then, the complaint was that it might be fair, but not beatable. Now, it's beatable, but not easy? Need help moving those goalposts?
I

No, all I said was that this game is consistently described as being fair by reviewers, by which they mean that you can beat it, as long as your are careful. By that metric, it is no more or less fair than any other game.

That doesn't make it fair, that makes it playable. Fair would imply that the odds are always even, and that would make it boring.

ccdohl:
snip

K. So what's your point? Yea, I know that you can beat those bosses, and the ghosts, and the wasps. Good use of equivocation. Target is not the same as lock on to you, fine. I have to fight some enemies without the benefit of locking on. Because those things can be overcome, describing the game as fair is either inaccurate, or pointless.

If fair just means that you can beat the game, then wooptie doo, every other game is fair too. If fair means that the odds are always even, then it's inaccurate because sometimes I can't lock on (using the implemented target lock), there are two guys, or there are bosses that will one-shot me, and the odds are not even.[/quote]

You're right, fair does mean that it's always even and in that sense, it's not. You have the advantage, it's not "fair" to the bosses. Sure, they can instant kill you, but they can only instant kill you in avoidable, predicable ways that they have to telegraph before using. Sure, it seems not fair when they actually hit you, but they give you ample opportunity to avoid such hits, and more often than not make themselves vulnerable by doing so.

My point, is that everything that seems unfair to you, is limited and/or comes with a great weakness to compensate. The only issue is whether or not you're up to the task of identifying and taking advantage of those weaknesses.

ccdohl:

ZeroMachine:

It's fair because literally everything in the game has a counter. You can combat EVERYTHING.

Fair =/= easy.

Have you played the game? Literally everything does not have a counter. If you mean, you can move out of the way or block, then you may be right, but that hardly makes it any more fair than any other action role playing game. You can beat any enemy in the game, and you can avoid almost all monster based damage, but that's true for almost every other game I've ever played, and their reviews don't describe them as being super fair.

fair =/= beatable

He meant fair as in, there are no cheap "you took the incorrect passage so you instantly die" or "you built your character wrong so you can't beat this boss". In demon's souls you could beat every boss at level 1 with enough skill and practice. Didn't mean it was easy, it was very hard because enemy damage is a massively higher than other rpg's but everything was dodge-able or block-able. Haven't played dark souls yet but I'd assume it's the same.

Jadak:

My point, is that everything that seems unfair to you, is limited and/or comes with a great weakness to compensate. The only issue is whether or not you're up to the task of identifying and taking advantage of those weaknesses.

Yea, but that's how almost every game works. If we use your definition of fair, then almost every game is fair, and mentioning Dark Souls' fairness is pointless.

I like the game but some bosses are bullshit. The Ceaseless Discharge in particular is ridiculous. Its arm kills you even if it landed 10 meters away.

ccdohl:

Jadak:

My point, is that everything that seems unfair to you, is limited and/or comes with a great weakness to compensate. The only issue is whether or not you're up to the task of identifying and taking advantage of those weaknesses.

Yea, but that's how almost every game works. If we use your definition of fair, then almost every game is fair, and mentioning Dark Souls' fairness is pointless.

Exactly, but if it's like every game in that sense, then complaining about it's unfairness is equally pointless.

*sigh* If only this could come out for PC. (Stares longingly at over sized poster with November 11th circled multiple times in bright red.)

So yeah, looks like itīs time to actually buy my first console since the original PS.
Honestly, did not expect that to happen, but I just donīt have the power to resist.
At least I heard that the xbox is fairly cheap these days.

Jadak:

ccdohl:

Jadak:

My point, is that everything that seems unfair to you, is limited and/or comes with a great weakness to compensate. The only issue is whether or not you're up to the task of identifying and taking advantage of those weaknesses.

Yea, but that's how almost every game works. If we use your definition of fair, then almost every game is fair, and mentioning Dark Souls' fairness is pointless.

Exactly, but if it's like every game in that sense, then complaining about it's unfairness is equally pointless.

Nobody is complaining about the unfairness of the game. I am having a fantastic time with it. I was just pointing out how dumb it is to say that the game is fair in the review.

Having never tried any Nintendo Hard games since the early 90's - I thought Dark Souls was a refreshing change of pace from today's games. But what struck me about the game was that most games when they prove too hard, it'll have me reaching for something easier.

Even if you die a lot, and believe you me - you WILL - it very rarely feels cheap. (With the exception of that arsehole knight in the bottom of the Undead Berg tower with the Alpine Horn. (You'll know him if you see him.)

Though I'm 60 hours in and still haven't got past the Bell Gargoyles yet - I still find myself glued to and loving every minute of the game. I'm totally going to blow my X-box up through overplaying this. :)

Gunner 51:

Though I'm 60 hours in and still haven't got past the Bell Gargoyles yet - I still find myself glued to and loving every minute of the game. I'm totally going to blow my X-box up through overplaying this. :)

60 hours and you've not even beaten the Bell Gargoyles? How much grinding are you DOING?!

Excellent pauses at the start of this "Hi. I'm Justin Clouse and this is our review of Dark Souls... Crap..."

For a moment I thought this was going to be more brutal than Yahtzee

I rage quit Dark Souls. Yeah, it's hard. Like, really freaking hard, but that's mostly because it has a somewhat unique control scheme, and once you start to pic that up, it's not as bad. But that's not why I quit.

I was about an hour into the game, and had finally found the path not filled with guys I can't beat yet. I made my way to the second bonfire (after the tutorial, I mean), kicked and clawed my way to the second boss, this Taurus demon guy, and died, losing over 4 thousand souls. Then I die trying to get back there a bunch of times. Finally I Do manage to get back to the boss, and I die, because bosses in this game are insane. Third time was not the charm. Finally, on my fourth attempt, I just run past the boss a bunch of times, climb a ladder (a harrowing experience, by the way), and do this special attack where I leap off a cliff and land on his head, doing massive damage. I escape him again, make it back up the ladder, try to heal. Oh, look, he can jump up there. I die. Getting close to rage. Die a bunch of times on my way back, as per usual. Finally get back to boss, and ACTUALLY DEFEAT HIM! Fuck yeah!

Take about five steps and a dragon comes out of nowhere and kills me. Lose all the souls I gained for killing the boss. Turn off system. Fuck this game.

I'm sad its not for PC. Its the second time i've been sad i don't have a console. Well not really SAD, I was only mildly sad about red dead, but I am sad about dark souls.

Oh joy, console only RPG, what a load of shit.

V TheSystem V:

Gunner 51:

Though I'm 60 hours in and still haven't got past the Bell Gargoyles yet - I still find myself glued to and loving every minute of the game. I'm totally going to blow my X-box up through overplaying this. :)

60 hours and you've not even beaten the Bell Gargoyles? How much grinding are you DOING?!

I thought you may be glad to know that as of yesterday - I have beaten the Gargoyles. The Drake Sword really makes a world of difference, I'm just ashamed that I didn't think of it sooner.

I've even managed to beat the knight dude with the alpine horn type club. (I was sweating buckets trying desperately trying not to get hit by him.)

Though my grinding could be better because I always stick to the same patch of relatively easy to kill mooks rather than wandering through the land going from bonfire to bonfire. But now that I'm in Darkroot Gardens, I can get more XP by killing those lumpy looking ice things.

How's the game if one is completely deprived of online contents?

I lived in a country that have extremely laggy net which makes it impossible to play online or enjoy any online contents in games. I heard that online is a very big part in dark soul.

so........if one was to play dark soul completely in single player, how is the experience different from one with online contents?

I find it interesting someone has completed this game in an hour and half when it took me 64 hours on my first play-through.
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/10/16/dark-souls-speed-run-is-a-tour-de-force-of-tolerance/

About to complete my 2nd play-through which is totally offline, just have to parry-kill the last boss. Won't be doing New Game+, tried it a little and feels too much of a scale up compared to the New Game+ in Demon's Souls. Also Master Key is way way way overpowered.

I hope archery is fixed its ass in Demons souls....

DP, delete this plz.

ZippyDSMlee:
I hope archery is fixed its ass in Demons souls....

Its pretty legit now since headshots from bows staggers some enemies long enough to plant another arrow in their brain. Also crossbows are much faster for controlling space with slow armored enemies or taking out a weaker group from far away. Then there's the Dragon Killing bow which is crazy powerful if you build around it since the only arrows you can use with it are basically spears. Combining it with the Hawk Ring and you can shut down almost any enemy from range. If you can see it before it aggros you and land that headshot it's as good as dead.

TheDooD:

ZippyDSMlee:
I hope archery is fixed its ass in Demons souls....

Its pretty legit now since headshots from bows staggers some enemies long enough to plant another arrow in their brain. Also crossbows are much faster for controlling space with slow armored enemies or taking out a weaker group from far away. Then there's the Dragon Killing bow which is crazy powerful if you build around it since the only arrows you can use with it are basically spears. Combining it with the Hawk Ring and you can shut down almost any enemy from range. If you can see it before it aggros you and land that headshot it's as good as dead.

Are crossbows aimable now? Or are they auto target only weapons?

ZippyDSMlee:

TheDooD:

ZippyDSMlee:
I hope archery is fixed its ass in Demons souls....

Its pretty legit now since headshots from bows staggers some enemies long enough to plant another arrow in their brain. Also crossbows are much faster for controlling space with slow armored enemies or taking out a weaker group from far away. Then there's the Dragon Killing bow which is crazy powerful if you build around it since the only arrows you can use with it are basically spears. Combining it with the Hawk Ring and you can shut down almost any enemy from range. If you can see it before it aggros you and land that headshot it's as good as dead.

Are crossbows aimable now? Or are they auto target only weapons?

Still auto target because they reload so fast compared to arrows I guess it's balanced in a way.

Eh, if this (or Demon's Souls) were on the PC, I'd definitely give it a try. I tend to try to play all games on the highest difficulty, even if it means continuous deaths (such as the Stalker games) and just keep trying and reloading and fighting for that adrenaline rush and personal gratification that comes with beating a sheer impossible situation after all. If I may say so myself, I think I'd be the perfect kind of person that this game would target as its audience. Unfortunately, I don't own those consoles and won't buy them, either. Since there apparently is no PC port and none planned, either, I'll have to pass this up. Too bad.

Gunner 51:
Having never tried any Nintendo Hard games since the early 90's - I thought Dark Souls was a refreshing change of pace from today's games. But what struck me about the game was that most games when they prove too hard, it'll have me reaching for something easier.

Even if you die a lot, and believe you me - you WILL - it very rarely feels cheap. (With the exception of that arsehole knight in the bottom of the Undead Berg tower with the Alpine Horn. (You'll know him if you see him.)

Though I'm 60 hours in and still haven't got past the Bell Gargoyles yet - I still find myself glued to and loving every minute of the game. I'm totally going to blow my X-box up through overplaying this. :)

Hey man, if you talked to that Sun Knight guy right after the Tauros Demon (and before the Red Dragon), then what you should do is resurrect to Human form before going to the Bell Gargoyles. Then you can summon the NPC! Made the fight so much easier.

But yeah that stupid Havel ("alpine horn") is a pain. I had to remove half my gear so I could roll fast, and then it was a dodge and backstab game. Still died a bunch, though :(

BreakdownBoy:
Oh joy, console only RPG, what a load of shit.

Wow I thought I was a little too pc elitist but I didn't know there were some people that don't even give anything they are unfamiliar with a try!
Funny really because Dark Souls is infinitely better than any pc rpg I have yet to experience but thats just me being accepting of alternative platforms again silly me have fun with hotkeys!

Mr Companion:

BreakdownBoy:
Oh joy, console only RPG, what a load of shit.

Wow I thought I was a little too pc elitist but I didn't know there were some people that don't even give anything they are unfamiliar with a try!
Funny really because Dark Souls is infinitely better than any pc rpg I have yet to experience but thats just me being accepting of alternative platforms again silly me have fun with hotkeys!

Maybe my statement was obscure, what I was trying to say is this. Developers who develop cool games like and not limited to Uncharted, Gears of War and Red Dead Redemption piss me off because they ignore a big portion of the market. I am not a pc super race kind of person, I do believe consoles have their benefits but that doesn't make console exclusive games any cooler, so chill the hell out, and yes I do enjoy hot keys as they allow me to play real RPG's the way they were inteded and not hack slash God of War wannabes.

Wolfram01:

Hey man, if you talked to that Sun Knight guy right after the Tauros Demon (and before the Red Dragon), then what you should do is resurrect to Human form before going to the Bell Gargoyles. Then you can summon the NPC! Made the fight so much easier.

But yeah that stupid Havel ("alpine horn") is a pain. I had to remove half my gear so I could roll fast, and then it was a dodge and backstab game. Still died a bunch, though :(

I didn't have any humanity at the time, I ended up grinding to the point where I could use a Drake Sword on the gargoyles with one hand and without being encumbered by it. Then I focused everything on the first gargoyle and didn't stop beating on it for one second.

After that, the second gargoyle was a piece of cake.

Now I have ground my way to get the Crest of Artorias, grinding just became a whole lot easier. Forest Dwellers in Darkroot Gardens behind the Artorias door carry at least 2000 xp per person.

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