No Right Answer: Mulan vs Jasmine

 Pages PREV 1 2
 

twaddle:

emeraldrafael:
snip

snip

If you want to get technical about it, a Sultan isnt necessarily a king either. His rule is dictated by the Quran. If I remember my Islam correctly, the Calyph was right under Mohammad, and he was the "ruler" of the Ummah, which is the community of Islam.

So he is the speaker of the Quran in a way, and since he is the speaker of it, he outrules a sultan.

Correct, good sirs, there is no right answer to your trick question

Mulan is indeed not a princess
therefore looses by default

enjoy.

Er... for Disney Princes; Remember who they are Simba.

ON that last point, I'd have to take that point away, because yes Jasmine did almost get her hand cut off for giving that kid an apple, but Mulan almost got sentenced to death for her actions. It was just Mulan's luck that the leader guy owed her a favor because she had saved him from certain doom, while he was unconscious...

So, probably already done, legitimate Disney Princess are:
Aurora
Snow White*
Cinderella*
Eilonwy
Ariel
Belle*
Jasmine
Pocahontas**

*by marrying a Prince they gain 'Princess' status (or would it be 'queen' status?)
** Tribe chief's daughter. A king is basically a super tribe chief.

including the *s I'd say Belle, because she lived in the countryside and just did what she felt like doing. Being independent doesn't mean she does things to empower women or anything like that. She's independent because she just did what she'd rather do without the need of a man.

Not including the *s... I'd have to say: Ariel. She took the initiative in her relationship with Eric. She sacrificed so much of herself to make that work. She knew the consequences she would face with her father, but stuck to pursuing her dream. Besides, how often do we see a Disney Princess making a literal deal with the devil (octopus witch)? Down to the signed contract?

And there are tons of actual Disney Princes. There are
The Prince (Snow White)
Charming (Cinderella)
Phillip (Sleeping Beauty)
Eric (Little Mermaid)
Beast (Beauty and the Beast)
Simba (Lion King)
Aladdin*
Flynn*

My personal favorite being Prince Phillip, since he fought Maleficent who was a fire breathing dragon. Also he actually helps the player out in Birth by Sleep.
Beast and Aladdin also help however Beast isn't very Princely and Aladdin is a likeable guy, but no prince.
Not to mention Simba and Aladdin are the stars of their movies. Both being the title characters.

If we do ignore the princess issue then Mulan wins.

Jasmine did jack all other than be a spoiled brat and leave the castle, almost got her hand cut off, played hard to get with Aladdin and then distracted Jafar by kissing him.

Mulan went to war to save her father, risking her life not only against the enemy but against her own side if they found out she was a woman. Then took out a entire army by herself, saved the Emperor and personally took out the big bad.

Jasmine did jack all and got saved by Aladdin. Mulan did everything herself.

Can't say I liked how the major go-to point for Mulan was "she could kick ass". While that is undoubtedly true, and she was presented as cunning, skilled and resourceful, that doesn't reflect on the topic of "Who is the most independent princess". Ass kicking has little relevence towards that unless you're living in a might-makes-right society. A good point for independence would be citing the end of the training montage, where she is the first to figure out the training regime, the fact that she demonstrated herself to be at least as good as her male counterparts in a field traditionally and legally [at the time] considered the domain of men, and the fact that she spearheaded the final battle in which she proved not only to be a capable soldier but a capable leader as well. Those would be good points indicating a strong character and the capacity for independence far better than simple physical prowess.

My personal bid though goes with Tiana (who qualifies as a princess by marriage). Self-made woman who grew up working two jobs (with a specific goal in mind) and whose general competence acts as a dramatic foil to the lead male. She ends up owning her own [apparently very successful] restaurant by the end of the film. The last part doesn't sound terribly impressive, I know, but given that the movie is set in New Orleans in the 1920s, well before the Civil Rights Movement really took off and riding on the coattails of the first wave of the Feminist Movement, that accomplishment is nothing short of incredible. Of course, Disney portrayed a much lighter and softer version of the issues of the time in the movie, so it's arguable how well history translates for that purpose.

Soviet Heavy:

MatsVS:
If you are looking for awesome female characters in cartoons, you are better served watching Miyazaki films, I reckon.

That is because Miyazaki is an outright feminist and an apologist for sexism.

OT. I would have chosen Nala from the Lion King. She's technically a princess if you count that the only male lion who could breed was Mufasa. Which makes you wonder how she feels being married to Simba, her half brother.

Mind=blown...

I TOTALLY havent thought about this before... o.O

I'm speechless, this is as world-changing to me as when my girlfriend pointed out that its stupid vampires can be out at night when moonlight is really just reflected sunlight....FUUUUUUUUUUUUUU! My day is gonna be a mess, now I'm thinking about both!!!

Well, at least it's not sleeping beauty. I mean if you actually understand what's going on with the story and all.

I say Mulan, but Kyle made some godamn valid points.

Hm, well I figured Mulan had it for up until that last point for Jasmine. This was quite the fun one. Methinks I like you guys.

Mulan's the better role model, Aladdin's the better film. Best Disney Princess role model would have to be Princess Tiana, being the only Disney Princess with any career ambitions, and as an animation nerd, I feel the need to state that the Glen Keane princesses (Ariel and Rapunzel) are easily the most interesting, well developed characters in terms of animation performance.

*sigh* If we really want to be technical here, there are only (ONLY) ten Disney Princesses: Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, Jasmine, Pocahontas, Mulan, Tiana and Rapunzel. They were chosen for their popularity and their ability to fit in the "princess mythology" (the little universe they have going on).

image

Not all Disney princesses are official franchise "Princesses". For example, Eilonwy from The Black Cauldron is a princess in the movie but not an official "Disney Princess". Alice and Kairi are Princesses of Heart in the Kingdom Hearts series but neither one of them are "Disney Princesses". It gets even more confusing with the official "Disney Princes"; out of ten, only Shang and John Smith aren't actual princes, with John Smith not actually being married to his Disney Princess counterpart (awkward, yes?). No point in guessing when Disney did it for us.

When it comes to which Disney Princess is the most independent(I'm capitalizing "Princess" to indicate that I am only counting the franchise Princesses, not every Disney female connected to royalty), that's a tough thing to think about. What does "independence" mean in this context? It would have to be in a figurative way since none of the Disney Princesses are truly "independent" (all of them are married, one of them has a kid). Is it about kicking the most ass? Mulan would easily win in that category (she's one of very, very few Disney females that were involved in the military in ANY way), although Jasmine does a good job of defending herself in the Aladdin series and the second and third movies. Is it about going against the grain, defying social norms in order to find something better? Well, most of the Disney Princesses did that (in fact, it's usually part of the movie that they are in). What about busting your ass and working hard? Tiana gets that one hands down. Is it about sacrificing something for someone else? Mulan did that (although technically for self-realization and honor, not to save her father) and so did Belle (for two days...before developing Stockholm Syndrome).

Being a princess has to do with ROYAL blood and connection, not nobility. Jasmine was the daughter of a king, Mulan was at best a noble. Mulan should have been disqualified from a competition of Disney princesses. Now some of the Disney ladies who did not start as Princesses could qualify due to marrying a prince or whatever in the conclusion of the movie, but that's about it.

Also there is a lot more material about Jasmine given that there was an Aladdin TV show, and I don't think Mulan ever got the same treatment. BOTH of our hosts in "No right answer" need to lose some points here because Jasmine literally cracks a mean whip, and wins as many fights as Aladdin does, with the whole "where does a princess learn stuff like that" being a recurring gag in the TV series at least. For obvious reasons a lot of disney porn created by perverted fanboys involves Jasmine has a hardcore BDSM dominatrix for that reason... and oddly all wierd fanboyish porn aside, she's pretty much the only Disney "princess" I could see stepping into that role, and it's amusing because it makes a disturbing amount of sense because where else WOULD a princess learn that kind of stuff..... well, maybe from taming her tiger, but that's never what the whip was used for nor did it ever seem to need to be used.

That said, while both were decent Disney movies, Mulan seems to have gotten less exposure over the years (if she had a TV show I missed it for example), and also seems to get flak for being sexist ironically. While based on a legend/myth like most Disney fare, and deserving of points for actually being a character from a story about the female character (where Jasmine was supporting cast for Aladdin and the Genie), it's also a story about crossdressing where Mulan ultimatly has to assume the identity of a man in order to do the things she does. Despite the ending, that point has not exactly gone unnoticed. The entire point of the movie aside, modern feminists and those into female empowerment have far less respect to the girl who disguises herself as a guy to prove a point, and more for the whole "I am a grrrrl, hear me roar while I get in your face". Neither quite fit that role, but Jasmine comes closer to the ideal of modern indendence and empowerment because she generally does her stuff while remaining feminine.

Really, I have some fear that in these debates our hosts are going to lose so many nerd points that they will actually become (ugh) normal mundanes... One day will they both be official "bros" in "No Right Answer" comparing sports teams accross the decades that never met and argueing about which one was better?... or could Rocky Marciano actually beat Ali despite what previous statistical comparisons said (Ali lost by the numbers).

That they had to resort to equating independence with masculine qualities (like kicking ass) illustrates that Disney females have a long way to go before they should be pointed out as models of independence (though they do make pretty models, look at those waistlines).

"I'm calling shananigans on this!".
Perfect last words ;)

Also, keep making this. Escapist: Keep paying these three guys!!!

orangeapples:
ON that last point, I'd have to take that point away, because yes Jasmine did almost get her hand cut off for giving that kid an apple, but Mulan almost got sentenced to death for her actions. It was just Mulan's luck that the leader guy owed her a favor because she had saved him from certain doom, while he was unconscious...

So, probably already done, legitimate Disney Princess are:
Aurora
Snow White*
Cinderella*
Eilonwy
Ariel
Belle*
Jasmine
Pocahontas**

*by marrying a Prince they gain 'Princess' status (or would it be 'queen' status?)
** Tribe chief's daughter. A king is basically a super tribe chief.

including the *s I'd say Belle, because she lived in the countryside and just did what she felt like doing. Being independent doesn't mean she does things to empower women or anything like that. She's independent because she just did what she'd rather do without the need of a man.

Not including the *s... I'd have to say: Ariel. She took the initiative in her relationship with Eric. She sacrificed so much of herself to make that work. She knew the consequences she would face with her father, but stuck to pursuing her dream. Besides, how often do we see a Disney Princess making a literal deal with the devil (octopus witch)? Down to the signed contract?

And there are tons of actual Disney Princes. There are
The Prince (Snow White)
Charming (Cinderella)
Phillip (Sleeping Beauty)
Eric (Little Mermaid)
Beast (Beauty and the Beast)
Simba (Lion King)
Aladdin*
Flynn*

My personal favorite being Prince Phillip, since he fought Maleficent who was a fire breathing dragon. Also he actually helps the player out in Birth by Sleep.
Beast and Aladdin also help however Beast isn't very Princely and Aladdin is a likeable guy, but no prince.
Not to mention Simba and Aladdin are the stars of their movies. Both being the title characters.

1. You left you Princess Eilonwy from the Black Cauldron :O. How can anyone forget her?
Seriously though, Tiana married Lawrence so she's a single star princess.
2. Snow White was a princess before marrying a prince.
3. You mention Simba but not Nala or Kiara? And Flynn but not Rapunzel?

Doesn't Bambi count too? I believe they called him the prince of the forest, and Faline. And what about Hercules? He's the son of the king of the gods.

I gotta agree, Mulan not really a princess, instant disqualification.

Otherwise...
Alot of the point of a disney princess is to be that princess that sits around waiting to be rescued that gives little boys the notion that being a brave adventurer gets you the pretty girl and the little girls get the notion that being a princess gets you pretty dresses and a handsome man coming to get them whilst they do naught to earn it. Lo, an independent disney princess is the one that is the least disney princesslike. So yeah, in terms of most independent major female character in a disney movie, hell yeah mulan.

Mulan all the way.

Ukomba:

orangeapples:
ON that last point, I'd have to take that point away, because yes Jasmine did almost get her hand cut off for giving that kid an apple, but Mulan almost got sentenced to death for her actions. It was just Mulan's luck that the leader guy owed her a favor because she had saved him from certain doom, while he was unconscious...

So, probably already done, legitimate Disney Princess are:
Aurora
Snow White*
Cinderella*
Eilonwy
Ariel
Belle*
Jasmine
Pocahontas**

*by marrying a Prince they gain 'Princess' status (or would it be 'queen' status?)
** Tribe chief's daughter. A king is basically a super tribe chief.

including the *s I'd say Belle, because she lived in the countryside and just did what she felt like doing. Being independent doesn't mean she does things to empower women or anything like that. She's independent because she just did what she'd rather do without the need of a man.

Not including the *s... I'd have to say: Ariel. She took the initiative in her relationship with Eric. She sacrificed so much of herself to make that work. She knew the consequences she would face with her father, but stuck to pursuing her dream. Besides, how often do we see a Disney Princess making a literal deal with the devil (octopus witch)? Down to the signed contract?

And there are tons of actual Disney Princes. There are
The Prince (Snow White)
Charming (Cinderella)
Phillip (Sleeping Beauty)
Eric (Little Mermaid)
Beast (Beauty and the Beast)
Simba (Lion King)
Aladdin*
Flynn*

My personal favorite being Prince Phillip, since he fought Maleficent who was a fire breathing dragon. Also he actually helps the player out in Birth by Sleep.
Beast and Aladdin also help however Beast isn't very Princely and Aladdin is a likeable guy, but no prince.
Not to mention Simba and Aladdin are the stars of their movies. Both being the title characters.

1. You left you Princess Eilonwy from the Black Cauldron :O. How can anyone forget her?
Seriously though, Tiana married Lawrence so she's a single star princess.
2. Snow White was a princess before marrying a prince.
3. You mention Simba but not Nala or Kiara? And Flynn but not Rapunzel?

Doesn't Bambi count too? I believe they called him the prince of the forest, and Faline. And what about Hercules? He's the son of the king of the gods.

Eilonwy's like 4th on my list :(
I never actually got a chance to watch Princess and the Frog, but I should have known Tiana's on the list since the movie is called PRINCESS and the Frog...
I thought Snow White was just a country girl... I think I'll have to re-watch that one.
I guess Nala would be a princess, and Simba's sister... hmmm... never thought about that before >_>
I could have sworn Repunzel was on my list... hmmm... guess I slipped up...

and sure, lets throw Hercules and Bambi on the list too :P

Simba. Simba is a prince who we remember more than the princess.

Honestly, Giselle from Enchanted should win this (YAY FOR ACTUAL DVD COPY IN THE BACKGROUND!).

She was the stereotypical princess; singing to wild life, twirling and spinning everywhere, wanting to marry a prince she barely met, etc. And yet, at the end of the movie, she changed into this independent, smart, and brave woman who breaks away completely from that princess-y persona and changes into this modern businesswoman.

BUT! I suppose she didn't end up marrying a prince...so she's not exactly a princess, per se.

So in lieu of that, Rapunzel gets the cake.

Why? Well, after being trapped in her tower for 18 years, she finally decides to take control of her life and boy, does she rock at it! She can read, she can paint, she can fight, she can sing, and she didn't need anyone to teach her all this; she did it all herself. Not only that, but she's so carefree and adventurous that it's really hard to hold her back. Even when she decides to go back to her tower life, she eventually realizes this isn't the life she wants and tries to break free, going as far as turning her back to all that she's known her entire life: her "mother" (For whatever reasons, but she did it).

And she's a princess.

So in a nutshell:

-She's talented.
-She can kick butt.
-For the most part, she doesn't need someone else to save her (She kinda does the saving at some point...)
-She can stand up against a psychotic woman she cared for and who lied to her her entire life.
-She's naive, but not silly or dumb (I'm looking at you, Thumbelina, and your monster crush on a guy you met 5 seconds ago).

HEY! Don't you go comparing the real stories with the Disney ones! The title, after all, is, "The most independent DISNEY princess".

For some reason, out of all the videos on the Escapist this one always takes the longest to load. I haven't even been able to watch the last few because of it :(

From the video to the comments.. it seems that a lot of people believe that due to Mulan being able to kick butt in fights automatically makes her the winner of independence. Even though I sort of wager more to her side anyways, I wouldn't have Mulan win the title all due to fighting well.

I saw the 2nd movie of Mulan and she literally goes to being a good housewife (if not babysitter) so that just breaks down the chance of independence yet I am only counting on the first movie anyways so yeah. Jasmine was very independent spite needing Aladin every now and then, but don't forget Mulan needed a male dragon to guide her. Also her comrades were male too... so both parties had to rely on guys now and then but I think of it as 'relying on another person' then 'man'. Jasmine probably would of wanted her tiger to help all this time if she hadn't met Aladin.

However, the most independent princess I know of is actually... *ahem* Tiana. Who is she you ask? Well-

She had to do so much on her own since she lost her dad early on in life. Being a waiter, supporting her mom, working non stop without any need of help from anyone. When society shunned her from purchasing a fine dinner of her own- she set out to do more. She may not of been a real princess at first, but *spoiler* at the end she marries the prince. However, she manages well and TEACHES the prince to be better in life with responsibilities spite both being frogs. So she wins my full vote.

 Pages PREV 1 2

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here