Jimquisition: Hate Out Of Ten

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT
 

I've been saying this for years.

The problem is that most people got accustomed to how the school system grades their students.
A 90-100% exceptional
B 80-89% above average
C 70-79% average
D 60-69% below average
F 0-59% needs help

when scores are out of 10, most people (readers and reviewers) run back to the school grading system. (I'll admit, I'm guilty of this too)

The way the 10 point scale should work is

10 as close to perfection as currently possible
8-9 exceptional
6-7 above average
4-5 average
2-3 below average
1 this is a game?

I like the 5 star system best because it places itself nicely with people's expectations
***** exceptional
**** above average
*** average
** below average
* barely a game

most people will happily accept 3 stars as average.

Thank God for Jim.

I'd also like to speak against this desire for some 'average' score in reviews.

Besides the fact you're trying to average/generalize/simplify a creative work, something you should spend time with, play with it's mechanics, get to know it...

What will the average value be based upon? Average compared to other games scores, or average based upon the scale?

It's weird that people even follow these. You're basing a game on the review of someone that obviously...is not you. Only you can decide if a game is fun for you, so going based off the scores random internet people give is pointless. I found fun gaming in Kane & Lynch and that was beaten into the ground by reviewers all over the place. Did it have flaws? Tons, but I still squeezed my money's worth out of it and had fun regardless.

I knew the reviews sucked, but I bought it for like $10.00 and played through it regardless. I'm not changing my buying habits off people I know nothing about.

I rant about some Zelda reviews.
Not because of the score per se, but because of their lame justifications in most of the cases, like beeing to precise with the controls lol. Or saying it doesn't get higher score because it isn't HD! The reviews should only take into consideration its console capabilities, otherwise after Crysis no game could have over 8 in graphics (except BF3, crysis 2 and some new games)
Also sometimes the numbers doesn't match up with the words. I read GamesTM review of Zelda Skywards Sword, they gave a 9 despite saying the game was perfect and they barely said anything negative..

Like check this guys trashing Zelda http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-185-invisible-walls/723938 (starts at 9:17), fortunantly the review itself was better.

The anti-Nintendo out there doesn't help either.

Double standarts doesn't help either, seeing AC Revelations getting (fairly) criticized and penalized because of the lack of inovation but then Cod keeps getting nines, in the same reviewers!

esperandote:

Jim Sterling:
Hate Out Of Ten

Review controversies are nothing new, but things went from bad to worse this year with gamers going crazy every time a major title got scored by various outlets. The "Year of Threes" have created more high profile titles than ever, and spawned more insane fanboys than the world knows what to do with. Even worse, the review score system has gotten so thoroughly screwed that 8/10 just doesn't cut it anymore. It's now become Hate/10.

Watch Video

Just a thought

Five shouldn't be average in a 1 to 10 scale (I don't mean in a mathematical sense but in a subjective(qualitative) one), average sholud be around 3 because numbers under 5 are barely used and so many games fall between average and perfection. Quality testing and publishers, and the risk of losing money, make it difficult for games under 3 to be released. More numbers between average and perfection would give critics a wider range of options and a chance to rate games more specifically.

i started your post wanting to yell at you, but having read it through, that makes a LOT of sense, you won me over atleast. So kudos on that i guess.

oh and to everyone read this post above me, its quite good.

don't the scores for games usually take a exponential dist, i mean, there are ~2x more 9 games than 8 games etc... so surely we could normalize the scorse into percentiles ? i.e. this game is in the top 1% percentail of games...etc...etc?

also i give this episode 11/10.

Well, American culture has been encouraging this kind of behavior for years, especially in the school system. When you give everyone a trophy for participating, or a good grade for showing up to class, or allowance for living in your parents basement, of course you end up with this kind of mentality. When people are rewarded for their intent rather than their results, they expect similar treatment in nearly every area of their lives, especially if they grew up with that kind of system. The result is people getting angry when a game, especially a game they like, receives a "low" score. Unfortunately, since we have full on political movements revolving around this mentality, a change seems a very long way off.

Coming less than a week after Sterling gave Skyrim a perfect score I find this video quite ironic...

Great column this week. People really are retarded when it comes to this subject.

I honestly think the whole number game is terrible for reviews anyway. There is not standard by which they are employed, so it becomes ridiculous.

Also, the criticism for reviews in the 9+ range tends to be haters saying a publisher bought a review score and the game is fucking aweful and a waste of money. Just look at the Skyrim page the SPUF.

i give this video a x*y/42

You missed the point. The ratings aren't the issue, the issue is the comparison to other games.

People read review scores as in "If this game got an 8, and that game got a 9, then clearly the reviewer thinks this game is better than that one! Even though they're different reviewers!" And you can imagine just how much fanboy flares that strikes up.

The real issue is morons comparing games of a different platform, of a different genre, and reviewed by a different person, as being concrete values of the game's worth.

The solution: Get rid of scores.

No numbers. I don't even understand how an opinion can be valuated in numerical form, it doesn't make any fucking sense and scores have never made sense to me. Just write a review, an essay. With words.

You know, what you actually use to convey your point?

Personally, if I had to give scores to games, I would review them as in golf.

A game that is nothing special, but is worth considering for every gamer will get a 0 for par. Great, Excellent, and Superb games will be scored -1, -2, and -3 (or birdie, eagle, and double-eagle/albatross) respectively. The best possible score is a -4, but that's impossible to get because nobody can hit the ball 480 yards.

Games that are not worth considering for everybody, get positive scores. A game where fans of the genre or the franchise would enjoy it, but others should probably stay away will receive a +1 score. There's no "worst" score since you can always take more strokes to get the ball in the hole, so if you really strongly dislike a game, feel free to give it a 12 or something.

Personally, I don't like the idea of giving numerical scores, but if I had to I'd do the above, if for no other reason than to screw with Metacritic.

As a great man once pointed out "This trend of celebrating mediocre games is quite troublesome, and while we continue to revere games like [insert name here], and throw our money at developers that's what we'll keep getting. More mediocre games" He shall remain unnamed for modesty sake (It was me :P).

Jim used to get on my tits first few episodes and, to put it bluntly I thought he was obnoxious asshat. Since then he earned my respect and proven me wrong by bringing up some valid points on interesting subjects while not deviating from his unique style. So I apologize to Jim for judging him on first impressions only.

OT: Some people (obviously very thick people with very small attention span) just look up review scores and start bitching without even reading through them. I found Eurogamer review of Uncharted 3 to be a real eye-opener to certain shortcomings of the series in general.
Also what people often forget is that while reviewers try to be objective, everyone has their preferences and what works for one person might be off-putting to another.

As an amateur reviewer I always stuggle with giving score but I only use them because there are millions of morons who don't read reviews and need a number to tell them to buy the game. I use a 1-5 scale and I usually base my scores on my experience over what's new or innovative or whatever... which is probably why I'll never go pro.

With my scale I use,
1- Don't but it's complete rubbish
2- Only buy if it's you're thing
3- Worth a look at but be sure first
4- A great game and I enjoyed it a lot
5- A must buy my IN MY OPINION!

Wait... theres the problem right there! Reviews are OPINIONS of the reviewer and not a detailed analysis of the game. Want a detail analysis of the game go to Wikipedia! Want someones opinion on the game who's played it READ REVIEWS NOT JUST LOOK AT THE SCORE!!!! People bitching about scores of a game is stupid. I never bitched about one of my favourite games Blade Kitten getting a bad score. No I read to find out why the reviewer gave it that score and understood the choice they made because everyone is different and if we all pulled our heads in instead of acting like idiots we may actually achieve world piece... and actually read reviews and not just the score.

Also if you're gonna bitch about a score, bitch when it's lower then a 5 like what every Dynasty Warriors game keeps getting. If the game gets a 7 or higher it mean break open that piggy bank and buy the game or in the case of a 10 buy 2 copies. Besides if reviewers were allowed most of them would throw the score system out and just write a review without scoring it. We use scores because we know the majority of people looking at reviews just do that, look at the review until they find the score. I agreee with Jim's choice of a 8.5/10 for Batman because he experienced the game differently on a personal level then I did and I gave it a 5/5 trying my best to find a reason to lower my score but I personally could find a reason.

In short, reviews are supposed to be read since the score doesn't matter. It's all personal taste and opinion.

It's really sad because I know how integral the number system is, for me at least.

It's used a lot to determine whether or not something is worth spending money on when we currently don't have a lot to go around. I wish I could demo everything legally and compare it, but that doesn't always happen, so I get stuck with numbers and other people's reviews.

We do it with books, movies, tv shows...

Just make the number system mean something again. I can't trust 10's anymore and I admit I've been spoiled against fives. I'll have to make an effort now to start reading the actual review instead of treating the number like a TL:DR.

I more or less agree on the combined score approach rather than having individuals decide the score that is sticked on the game's front page. Metacritic is more of the opposite of this.

You'll notice at times that User Scores can be higher/lower then the Official Reviewer Score.

Why did we ever invent numerical game scores? Seriously, why? Did they start out as a minor accompaniment to real reviews and then get out of hand, or were they plaguing us from the start?

This is why Yahtzee is a better source for information than 90% of reviewers: you listen to what he says and decide what that's worth for yourself. If you think he's biased against Wii games (to take an example totally at random), look at what you've got if you take away the bias. That anybody liked numeric ratings to begin with is a mystery to me. The fact that they're surviving in the days of review bombing, corporate shills and Metacritic drama is just baffling. What good is a number out of five or ten on its own, apart from as meaningless, binary validation?

LOL I remember Dark Knight was sitting on 100% on rotten tomatoes for a while, before one reviewer gave a negative score. It had something like 500 comments, most of which were full of hate vitriol. good times.

bahumat42:

esperandote:

Jim Sterling:
Hate Out Of Ten

Review controversies are nothing new, but things went from bad to worse this year with gamers going crazy every time a major title got scored by various outlets. The "Year of Threes" have created more high profile titles than ever, and spawned more insane fanboys than the world knows what to do with. Even worse, the review score system has gotten so thoroughly screwed that 8/10 just doesn't cut it anymore. It's now become Hate/10.

Watch Video

Just a thought

Five shouldn't be average in a 1 to 10 scale (I don't mean in a mathematical sense but in a subjective(qualitative) one), average sholud be around 3 because numbers under 5 are barely used and so many games fall between average and perfection. Quality testing and publishers, and the risk of losing money, make it difficult for games under 3 to be released. More numbers between average and perfection would give critics a wider range of options and a chance to rate games more specifically.

i started your post wanting to yell at you, but having read it through, that makes a LOT of sense, you won me over atleast. So kudos on that i guess.

oh and to everyone read this post above me, its quite good.

Great, I was afraid that i didn't explained myself correctly.

esperandote:

bahumat42:

esperandote:

Just a thought

Five shouldn't be average in a 1 to 10 scale (I don't mean in a mathematical sense but in a subjective(qualitative) one), average sholud be around 3 because numbers under 5 are barely used and so many games fall between average and perfection. Quality testing and publishers, and the risk of losing money, make it difficult for games under 3 to be released. More numbers between average and perfection would give critics a wider range of options and a chance to rate games more specifically.

i started your post wanting to yell at you, but having read it through, that makes a LOT of sense, you won me over atleast. So kudos on that i guess.

oh and to everyone read this post above me, its quite good.

Great, I was afraid that i didn't explained myself correctly.

It's either
didn't explain it correctly
or
hadn't explained myself correctly.

I'm not usually this grammar nazi-ish but that really jumped out at me.

I miss the times when i could be so thrilled that someone would actually review a game, and that it would even be given space in a news magazine.

i blame this on gaming getting too popular. Sportsupporters have gone from madden/fifa to other games and are now creating support clubs for their favorite games and developers. now we just need to give them guns so they can kill eachother off cause of it. Then with the last hooligan losing his pulse, us elitist jerks can play and review our games in peace.

I completely agree with this video. The reaction to great review scores truly is astounding. 8/10 is awesome, why anyone would get upset about a score like that is baffling to me.

I've seen this fall into almost meme status, like a running gag on message boards that specifically like ribbing fanboys. I'm actually kind of surprised to hear Cliffy B. got sand in his shorts over a good review since he was supposed to be the guy that people looked to as "one of us" and a "bro" in gaming. Serious dickery on his part, both for what Jim pointed out, and by virtue of being critical of an honest opinion about his product.

George Lucas, despite the terrible terrible things he's done, at least has the right attitude in saying that he doesn't care what people have to say, Star Wars was his to mess with however he saw fit. DAMN THE REVIEWS! Never thought it would come to siding with George Lucas, but there you have it.

Adam Sessler talked about this when he reviewed Killzone 2 (or 3, I forget), and this is the one area that rubs me raw; why get your panties in a twist when you HAVEN'T FUCKING PLAYED THE FUCKING GAME FOR YOURSELVES?! Who does this?! What kind of basely moronic turdsmoker actually get's mad with a review, even disagrees with it, when he or she HASN'T EVEN TOUCHED THE GODDAMN GAME?!

To hell with this... I'm getting mad now.... I'm out.

I can't think of anything more pointless than a number based review, especially on the "out of ten" scale.

When you consider the fact that each individual person is different, each individual review site is different, each one is sponsored by different corporations, each one has a different community, each one has a different method towards how to approach the scale.. in the end, what the heck is the difference between an 8.6 and an 8.8? It means absolutely nothing. A game cannot "feel" like an 8.6 or an 8.8.

On top of that, the videogaming industry is the most varied media industry that exists. Is the 8.5 for Uncharted on the same scale as the 8.8 for Zelda TP? How can you even compare these two experiences with any sort of legitimacy? Am I going to like Zelda more because it's .3 better than Uncharted? Of course not.

Most other industries have already realized this. The four or five star rating will tell you if it's a well made film or if it's a pile of junk, and that's all a number scale should tell you in the first place. Giantbomb and a few others understand this with their five star scales, you remove many layers of subjectivity with fewer numbers.

In the end, the only thing that matters is how a game compares to other games that are similar to it. You can review Zelda against Okami, you can review Street Fighter against Mortal Combat, but you cannot review Katamari Damacy against Batman AC. This means you actually have to read the review itself (and more reviewers need to write reviews with comparisons in mind) or listen to word of mouth, much more valuable than any arbitrary number.

PeePantz:
Who fucking cares? Seriously, this has gotten ridiculous. Between the bitching about scores and those bitching at those who score bitch, video game score reviews get entirely too much attention and press. People like Jim Sterling make it a big deal, causing developers and publishers to actually notice such things.

Bitching within bitching within bitching. My god, its bitchception! Everyone run from the gaming bitchpocalypse!

Good review, kept freezing up at 6:06, I therefore review this 6/10 because I did not get the full feature regardless of the fact that I didn't pay for it :D

I am so happy he did this video! It really has been getting out of hand lately.

If you read the comments on youtube it's pretty pathetic how the people act. I can't even comprehend sitting around trolling people all day because of a score you disagree with. I mean really they need to get some lives.

The ending was a perfect example, i would be beyond happy if a game i worked on got a 9 out of 10.

And to rex 6 is below average, 7 average, 8 above average(great), 9 amazing, 10("perfect" or as near perfect that it can be).

This also leads into giving games different scores as a publicity stunt. I understand it's more than possible that a publication can give a game a different score from everybody else just to stand out. But I hate it when people completely ignore all other possibilities just so they can smash their keyboard with caps on.

Then there's people who don't understand the concept of "personal opinion". People who flame reviewers because their opinions don't match for whatever stupid reason. There's no better example of this than most user reviews on metacritic.

Well as been said before the solution is simple DO NOT RATE IN NUMBERS. Why? Because to many (non-objective) people will misinterpret whatever number you give. "A 10/10 REALLY come on it's at least worth a 11 of 10...." And then try to force what they think of the game upon you.

If you want an objective rating give a game to someone like my mum and she would make Yathzee seem nice... A game rating often depends on the player base if only fans of CoD MW would buy say Skyrim they would quite possibly rate it 6-7 instead of the regular TES fan that would give it 9-10...
And therefore I say rate it in something on a 3 grade scale bad, ok and great. But give a lot of thoughts on why and who should buy it, what makes the reviewer say great? Is it graphics that is awesome but the story is average what does it deserve then?...

And so on if you need to be talking to the people that only understand numbers (and don't really read it but just look at the number and goes nuts..) that they can twist in their minds then use a 100 grade scale and ad:
"This is the subjective thoughts by our reviewer, your score for the game may vary"
or "The review score is only there to feed the trolls, do not pay it any attention"

bahumat42:

esperandote:

bahumat42:

i started your post wanting to yell at you, but having read it through, that makes a LOT of sense, you won me over atleast. So kudos on that i guess.

oh and to everyone read this post above me, its quite good.

Great, I was afraid that i didn't explained myself correctly.

It's either
didn't explain it correctly
or
hadn't explained myself correctly.

I'm not usually this grammar nazi-ish but that really jumped out at me.

Yeah that's a mistake I keep making. Hopefully this is the last time. Thanks.

The ending was funny as hell. I thought of the infamous 9.3 affair at gametrailers, when they reviewed Unchrated 2. It was so stupid. Now it's looking like skyward sword is heading there too.

Jim,
For this episode, and the trilogy about Used games I hereby dub you...
image
You pretty much said exactly what I've been saying for years, we need to somehow re-set the whole scoring system, make an 8 mean something again. And yes, tens are bullshit, it's the reason I stopped reading PlayStation The Offical Magazine, (Yes, I actually used to read that trash, don't laugh at me) they gave everything a ten, and it bothered me.
Nice to know we still have some sane people in the reviewing biz.

Final Fantasy XIII: 13/10

Reviews mean next to nothing to me unless it's a complete unknown. I like to get a little insight from Yahtzee, and I avoided Rage for the time being due to the glitch reports, but nothing will keep me from getting Skyrim when I get back to my desktop PC. Could have been a 2/10.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here