Stop Camping Your Girlfriend for Sex

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thaluikhain:
People seem to be mistaking "nice guys" with "Nice GuysTM".

Yes, you can find yourself attracted to women you are friends with. That's different to being, or pretending to be, friends with women in the hope they'll have sex with you, and crying foul when they don't.

If a woman tells you she's not interested in you, that she just wants to be friends, a nice guy will accept that she is a person too, and can make her own decisions. It's the Nice GuyTM who needs to find a way to convince her otherwise, because she's chosen something he doesn't want.

Exactly. I think of myself as a nice guy. I became friends with one of my friend's girlfriend simply because she was around all the time and we all had the same interests. She's cute, kinda funny, and insecure. Just because of who I am, I sort of orbited towards her to provide support and confidence boosts when I could, but the more I hung out with her, the more I realized I was attracted to her.

After she broke up with my friend/her boyfriend, I considered for (perhaps too long) asking her out. She got another boyfriend before I could, and not long after I found out that she thinks of me like 'an older brother'.

It was at that point that I gave up on anything ever happening between us, aside from our friendship. We're still good friends, and hang out when we can. We even have a yearly Rocky Horror Picture Show tradition now.

Dastardly:

Father Time:

Dastardly:

Pressed does, indeed, need to be more honest with himself. He was looking for a girlfriend, but was trying the classic "flanking" maneuver of "not looking for a girlfriend" while testing the waters. She saw it coming a mile away, because we're never as sneaky as we think we are.

So I take it you either didn't read the article or you think he's lying based on some bullshit.

I don't think the guy was lying to her. I think he was lying to himself about his intentions. He was interested in her from the word "Go," but he wasn't confident enough to go for it. Happens all the time, to everyone, and it's perfectly normal. It's also something we should strive to overcome.

So, I take it you're projecting because you believe yourself to be in this same situation, and are perhaps similarly being dishonest with yourself, causing you to overreact to disagreement. Or, as it is with the above situation, that's at least what it surely looks like.

He may have been intrested in her from the beginning, he may not have, but that doesn't mean he was dishonest with anyone. If he was intrested in the beginning yes he should have made his intentions known. He went about the deal the wrong way.

What many guys make the mistake of doing when they meet a nice girl (I'm guilty of this too) is they go into "friend mode" to see if they will actually like the person. The problem here is we stay in "friend mode" just a little (or a lot) too long. This can be confusing to women, who file the guy under "just friends", when he tries to ask them out or gets all Nice GuyTM on them.

If you think you might like a girl, ask her on a date as soon as possible. No need to get romantic right away, but she needs to know you see her as a possible more-than-a-friend. Now if this guy truly only saw her as a friend at first then developed feelings for her.... It's not unheard of for the girl to eventually like the guy back but don't count on it.

Also first post

I'm the fellow who wrote letter #1. While I greatly admire Ms. Crigger's bluntness, toughness directness and honesty, she misunderstood my question. But it's my fault; I didn't elaborate.

The question wasn't 'is it safe?', but rather, 'does it not make me look like a loser, desperate for sex?' I mean it sounds really clingy and lame, am I wrong?

Tell you what: I'll explain why I've thought about this for so long. Let me set the scene for you...

I have a certain sexual and emotional kink; all I'll say is that it's very uncommon and it's not furry fandom. Suffice it to say, people with this kink tend to be extremely attracted to one another, and if not we at least like to hang out and talk about its emotional side.
So some time ago, I was chatting online with a guy who also had this kink. After realizing how much he plays WoW, and in general how fat and boring he probably is, he told me about this girl online he met who also had the kink, and the brief physical relationship they had together. And he said,

"I drove three hours to get to her house."

See what I mean? This has nothing to do with rape, lies or STDs, just the pathetic implications of the act. It's basically saying "I don't have anything better to do than go across the country for someone I barely know."

If the drive were only like 20 minutes, or if both members of the relationship agreed to travel a relatively equal length of time, it'd be fine. I actually know a girl online (with that kink, yes) who I may at some point have the opportunity to meet up with, and I think she lives a pretty steep distance from me, so this is getting pretty relevant to me personally.

Now, of course, the disclaimers:

1: Yes, I know going to great lengths to be with someone can have a positive effect and demonstrate one's selflessness and passion.

2: Yes, I AM very aware of wanting to appear 'cool' to potential mates and/or friends, and want to avoid looking 'lame'. It's just that those words don't mean to me what you possibly think they do.

3: I don't have anything against playing WoW for any length of time; I'm fine with obesity; not everybody needs a bunch of friends. People just shouldn't be selfish assholes and let their life waste away, is all.

4: I'm aware Laura did get into other things like 'meeting in a neutral location', but they still weren't quite the topic I was hoping to bring up.

UltraHammer:
I'm fine with obesity; not everybody needs a bunch of friends. People just shouldn't be selfish assholes and let their life waste away, is all.

That is the shallowest thing I've ever heard. Congratulations for making me lose faith in humanity.

el_kabong:

UltraHammer:
I'm fine with obesity; not everybody needs a bunch of friends. People just shouldn't be selfish assholes and let their life waste away, is all.

That is the shallowest thing I've ever heard. Congratulations for making me lose faith in humanity.

You're taking this waaaay out of context - he's not connecting the obesity to the having no friends, he's trying to say that he doesn't want to sound like he's judging the WoW player in his story. Semicolons separate items in a list, and he's listing off prejudices (he says) he doesn't have. Although he does seem like he's judging the dude, at least a little bit, by not wanting to take on the same associations he's clearly got for this other dude.

On-topic: this thread is probably now gonna become a "What's UltraHammer's secret fetish?" thread... Still, my advice to you, Ultrahammer, is do what you want. If you wanna drive 3 hours to see this girl, do it. If you're worried about what people will think if you tell them the story, don't tell them.

Look at it this way - if driving 3 hours to get some makes you seem desperate for sex, then NOT driving 3 hours to get some purely because you're worried what people will think makes you seem desperate for approval. As long as we're looking desperate for something, you might as well do the one that allows you to get some lovin'...

Any man who rolls over and grabs an Xbox controller and not the naked woman in the bed next to him is a) an idiot...

...He's the one who has no idea how to treat a house guest, much less one gracious enough to have sex with him multiple times a night.

This whole idea that a man should be "grateful" for a women that has sex with him is really pathetic and undignified.

What's even worse is how many guys are ok with it.

Sandytimeman:
I think the writer is being a bit hard on "nice guys" I used to be one of those. I just didn't have any experience or confidence for awhile. After awhile I found the confidence to be more direct and didn't have to be anyone's friend. But still I was a "nice guy" and I wasn't a dick >.< just took me a bit to build up the courage to ask someone out is all.

I don't think you were necessarily a Nice Guy. My other half is very nice, but he's never been a Nice Guy.

A Nice Guy (in this context) is one of those men with a sense of entitlement, who commodifies women and thinks that because he has done X, Y and Z he is entitled to romance or sex. You see them online all the time saying things like, "Why do chicks always dig jerks and treat nice guys like crap? I did all these things and she still went off with someone else!" You know, those guys who don't see that being hateful about women or treating them like chattel is actually not nice at all.

Romance is not like a BioWare game, where if you follow the walkthrough you get laid, because human beings have their own preferences and free will to express them. If you're naturally nice, don't stop being nice. Treating others like people is ultimately the way to get the most satisfying playthrough in real life.

ms_sunlight:

Sandytimeman:
I think the writer is being a bit hard on "nice guys" I used to be one of those. I just didn't have any experience or confidence for awhile. After awhile I found the confidence to be more direct and didn't have to be anyone's friend. But still I was a "nice guy" and I wasn't a dick >.< just took me a bit to build up the courage to ask someone out is all.

I don't think you were necessarily a Nice Guy. My other half is very nice, but he's never been a Nice Guy.

A Nice Guy (in this context) is one of those men with a sense of entitlement, who commodifies women and thinks that because he has done X, Y and Z he is entitled to romance or sex. You see them online all the time saying things like, "Why do chicks always dig jerks and treat nice guys like crap? I did all these things and she still went off with someone else!" You know, those guys who don't see that being hateful about women or treating them like chattel is actually not nice at all.

Romance is not like a BioWare game, where if you follow the walkthrough you get laid, because human beings have their own preferences and free will to express them. If you're naturally nice, don't stop being nice. Treating others like people is ultimately the way to get the most satisfying playthrough in real life.

Why is it that modifying your behavior to be "nice" isn't cool, but modifying it to be a jackass is? I constantly see advice on this forum telling people to be more of an asshole, more of a jerk. It seems like THAT is the "X, Y, and Z" that works.

I mean, if one example of behavior modification is manipulative and demeaning, surely the other HAS to be as well.

KaiusCormere:

Why is it that modifying your behavior to be "nice" isn't cool, but modifying it to be a jackass is? I constantly see advice on this forum telling people to be more of an asshole, more of a jerk. It seems like THAT is the "X, Y, and Z" that works.

I see this a lot in partner websites, a lot of women seem to want a strong, secure, independant man who has a realistic outlook on his life / is not an illusional dreamer.

A mixture of Bruce Willis and George Clooney, somebody who acts and looks like he doesnt really need a relationship, but is open for an opportunity.

And then they also want somebody who carries them / protects them / supports them / does everything for them / spends a lot of time with them.

It seems Mr.Paradox is a wanted man.

It's always an 'all he wants is sex' problem- I would prefer that to my 'he has almost no sex drive' problem!

I just think ladies are too picky these days! Aren't we just crazy!

el_kabong:
That is the shallowest thing I've ever heard. Congratulations for making me lose faith in humanity.

So... you want people to be selfish assholes, wasting their life away? Okay, let me make it a little more clear that this 'guy' I was talking to just in general seemed like a boring, bitter douche bag, and his constant playing of WoW was just one symptom I observed to give that diagnosis. And what I'm saying is that other people can have the (perfectly fine) symptoms, but not necessarily have the disease.

FluxCapacitor:
You're taking this waaaay out of context - he's not connecting the obesity to the having no friends, he's trying to say that he doesn't want to sound like he's judging the WoW player in his story. Semicolons separate items in a list, and he's listing off prejudices (he says) he doesn't have. Although he does seem like he's judging the dude, at least a little bit, by not wanting to take on the same associations he's clearly got for this other dude.

Exactly... I think. Whatever.

FluxCapacitor:
Still, my advice to you, Ultrahammer, is do what you want. If you wanna drive 3 hours to see this girl, do it. If you're worried about what people will think if you tell them the story, don't tell them.

Well I'm mostly concerned about what it would sound like to the girl herself.

FluxCapacitor:
Look at it this way - if driving 3 hours to get some makes you seem desperate for sex, then NOT driving 3 hours to get some purely because you're worried what people will think makes you seem desperate for approval. As long as we're looking desperate for something, you might as well do the one that allows you to get some lovin'...

Okay, now I should really explain some of what I mean when I say 'cool' or 'lame'.

Coolness = patience, selflessness, being interesting, being friendly, loving passionately, being able to let go of things, making other people feel good about themselves, ext
Lameness = the opposite of everything mentioned above

And in addition, one thing I've come to realize (that is kinda related to 'coolness) is that if you're always there for your partner; if you're always available to play with them, they lose a lot of immediate interest in you. I've noticed a pattern with me and this girl (and other girls I've chatted to online over the last few years):

There'd be a time where I'd be online for a few hours every single night; I'd always be on before she was. And she would log in very infrequently; once or twice a week. Then finally, I'd give up and not log in very often, then suddenly, she was logging in all the time; she'd usually be on if I were on. Her faithful presence very quickly make me bored of our time together, so I started logging in very rarely. Thus, the cycle went on and on.
But then finally, I became aware of the cycle, and figured out that the way to break it is to ration out your time to them; don't log in some nights even if you kinda want to; tell them 'I have to get off at [insert time here]' even if you're free all night; and so on. The simple fact is humans are programmed as hunter-gatherers; we love to fight for and earn and obtain things. That's why RPGs are so appealing to a lot of us, and that's why if you present yourself to your partner as some unlimited, perpetually available recourse, they will probably get bored and you'll both suffer. (My, this is a lot like what Laura about letter #2!)

So maybe NOW you can see why being so willing to take an extended road trip to their house would send a lameness message. Now I've been chatting with this girl for over two years; we've even sent pictures of ourselves to each other (confirming our ages and genders) and have a mutual desire to meet in real life some day. So given this exact context, here's my very loose plan that I think would work:

Find some other reason to go in their approximate direction: business trip, visiting family, whatever. Then tell them, "You know, I could leave a day early, then take a detour to your city, and we could spend a day together in the middle of my trip!"
If they're smart (or if you hint), they'll probably figure out that you planned it that way. Which only makes it better, at least for me and her personally. I think that if she knew I really wanted to be with her, but knew better than to devote too much time to her, she'd like that. It's like when Stan Marsh--at the living museum--said to the employees who never break character,

"Uhhh, look, can we just drop the whole roleplaying thing? I would play along, but my girlfriend's here and I don't wanna look like a total dork in front of her."

And then Wendy, who was in fact standing right next to him, thanked him for that.

****

Disclaimers again:

1: I acknowledge the following statement: what the hell would I know about relationships? I've yet to be in a serious physical one.
2: I acknowledge that some parts of this post are ridiculously obvious.

ms_sunlight:
I don't think you were necessarily a Nice Guy. My other half is very nice, but he's never been a Nice Guy.

A Nice Guy (in this context) is one of those men with a sense of entitlement, who commodifies women and thinks that because he has done X, Y and Z he is entitled to romance or sex. You see them online all the time saying things like, "Why do chicks always dig jerks and treat nice guys like crap? I did all these things and she still went off with someone else!" You know, those guys who don't see that being hateful about women or treating them like chattel is actually not nice at all.

Which would be a fine stance to take, were it not for the fact that the guy that Lara lashed out at didn't demonstrate in his email evidence of a single behavior fitting this archetype.

This is reminding me a lot of that time that Lara accused some guy who wrote in of fetishizing Asian women just because he said he was attracted to Asian women and interested in Asian cultures. She appears to have some baggage, on certain topics she can't seem to help but attack the men who write in about them. Maybe it makes her feel tough to attack some letter-writer who kinda-sorta resembles someone she knows in real life in a venue where he can't defend himself, or maybe it's just some troll-face to create controversy and boost her page views. But whatever the reason, it definitely appears to me that on certain topics at least Lara isn't giving advice to help the people who write in, she's giving advice to help herself.

UltraHammer:
long planned out stuff

Oh, okay - you're not worried what other people think, you're worried what she'll think...

In that case, you've been talking for 2 years?! Jump, man! And do it without any kind of smokescreen. Don't make her feel like a detour on your journey somewhere else, make her feel good about being worth the long trip to come see her. That's pretty selfless if you play it right, especially if you don't push the physical side. If it happens, awesome - if not, let it go without drama. That'll maintain the image that I think you're going for - you like this girl, and she's worth your time, but if you can't have her it's not the end of the world.

KaiusCormere:

Why is it that modifying your behavior to be "nice" isn't cool, but modifying it to be a jackass is? I constantly see advice on this forum telling people to be more of an asshole, more of a jerk. It seems like THAT is the "X, Y, and Z" that works.

I mean, if one example of behavior modification is manipulative and demeaning, surely the other HAS to be as well.

Don't ask me and expect an answer - I don't advise anyone to go around acting like an arsehole! I can't stand manipulative behaviour at all. That kind of bullshit belongs to surrendered wives and "the rules" and idiots that think NLP is science.

Hm, I have a very similar problem as Camped For Sex.

Err.. So fun to see how everyone disagrees and agrees.
Everyone is a consultant these days are we not?

Sensible advice, and fun to read too!
Why was it fun to read? Erm..
>.>
<.<
Not because I got some weird reading other people's problems fetisch or anything.
STOP STARING AT ME!

[disclaimer] The written above is ment as a jest. The author has no weird fetisch. [/disclaimer]

FluxCapacitor:
Oh, okay - you're not worried what other people think, you're worried what she'll think...

Well that's part of what I said...

FluxCapacitor:
In that case, you've been talking for 2 years?! Jump, man!.

The thing is, we're only 18 and 17 years old (with me as the younger one). When we first started talking, we were 16 and 15. So you can see why we've just kept talking for so long. Even now, I have a ways to go before I'm independent enough to take a road trip without anyone knowing, and the same for her. Plus, I've still got.. *looks at calendar* five months before I get out of highly-dangerous minor-to-non-minor territory.

FluxCapacitor:
And do it without any kind of smokescreen. Don't make her feel like a detour on your journey somewhere else, make her feel good about being worth the long trip to come see her.

You're so, super ultra right! I'm glad I talked about this here!

FluxCapacitor:
That's pretty selfless if you play it right, especially if you don't push the physical side. If it happens, awesome - if not, let it go without drama. That'll maintain the image that I think you're going for - you like this girl, and she's worth your time, but if you can't have her it's not the end of the world.

Yep.

Avid gamer or a love life.

I chose gamer. I sympathise with people who feel that they are forced to try and have a girlfriend/boyfriend because society tells them its "normal". This view that any man who chooses games over girls is an idiot is annoying to say the least. Its their choice stop making it seem like somebodies opinion is wrong.

artanis_neravar:
Her job isn't to search for information, it's to give her advice one the situation given the information (of which she does not share all of it with us) that is included in the emails.

Actually, no, her job is to entertain. That's why the advice is published. Once you realize that the job of every advice columnist is ultimately to entertain readers, it all begins to make a lot more sense.

Dastardly:
But there's no need to go after the guy's parents like that. Different people have different values. It doesn't mean his parents want to have "approval rights," or that he needs their validation. I find it a bit weird, too, and I would recommend to him that he get to know the girl himself before bringing her home (which also gives her time to adjust before more people are involved)... but there's no reason to belittle the guy because his parents are friendly.

What I assumed when reading the letter (and what Lara might have figured as well), was that the parents wanted to meet the girl, but didn't necessarily want to turn it into a huge thing. My parents are like that as well (they're overprotective as fuck and wanna meet everyone I associate with), but if I (as a person of-age) were living with them they wouldn't request formal dinners with people I meet; even they would be willing to talk to those friends a little if they came over for a visit, or came to pick me up for something. They understand that after a certain age, asking someone (especially of the opposite sex) sends a certain message, and would keep that in mind when trying to arrange something. I wouldn't be shocked if the guy used this as an opportunity to ask the girl out unofficially, and now is in denial that he ever intended it to be a date (though since he says he now wants to ask her out "again," even he isn't completely sold on that front).

Katatori-kun:
Which would be a fine stance to take, were it not for the fact that the guy that Lara lashed out at didn't demonstrate in his email evidence of a single behavior fitting this archetype.

Can't say anything about the other example you cited because I never read it, but for this one I personally noticed a couple things (including what I already posted above):

- He tried "to move slowly with this relationship"--what relationship, were they not already friends?

- His parents like to meet his friends, and I doubt they're oblivious to the notion that a 21-year old dude asking a chick to dinner might come off the wrong way. Kinda sounds like he used an opportunity where they could/would have been more than willing to meet her casually and/or in passing, to ask her out on a date. A theory that is somewhat reinforced by the fact that

- He says it would have been platonic (i.e., he wasn't doing this to ask her out), but then says "I still feel courageous enough to ask her again." As in, he wants to ask her out again. But I thought he hadn't done that yet, because the dinner invite was "platonic."

- Her exact words are "You know we're friends, and that's as far as it goes, right?", but now he's convinced himseld that this has changed, that she now may like her, and that he should ask her again.

Now these things individually aren't necessarily signs of Nice Guy behavior (or even bad behavior, for that matter); hoping that a girl you have a crush on has changed her mind isn't inherently bad on its own, for example, and it's not a heinous crime to not want to tell a person you have a crush on them, the minute you realize it. However, taken as a whole, they could easily show a less noble personality, and that interpretation isn't that fat-fetched. While he didn't know at first sight he wanted to be with her, he knew early enough to know he wanted to "move slowly" into asking her out (i.e., he was working towards the end goal of going out with her). As a 21-year old adult he could have easily either told his parents not to ask to meet his friends anymore, or could have compromised and said they could meet her when she came by to pick him up for something/when she hung out at his place/etc, but he chose to ask her to dinner with his parents instead. He says he intended the dinner to be platonic, but considers the invite to be a first stab at asking her out and/or figuring out his feelings for him, and as he can't get over her, is interpreting possible friendliness to mean she's into him after all, even though she made it pretty clear that's not going to happen, and is asking advice on how to do this asking, rather than asking "do you think I'm reading too much into this/should I drop it?", which would be the genuine-nice-guy reaction to the situation, given her reaction to his dinner invite. If not to just give up altogether and just try and be content as friends. His persistence in trying to ask her out when she made it clear friends are as far as they go, and the very real possibility that he used his parents' interest in his friends to ask her to dinner, both strongly indicate that he may not be all that innocent, and that he may very well fit the Nice Guy archetype.

Of course, he also may not. But the basis for the assumption does exist, if you know how to look for it.

minuialear:
What I assumed when reading the letter (and what Lara might have figured as well), was that the parents wanted to meet the girl, but didn't necessarily want to turn it into a huge thing. My parents are like that as well (they're overprotective as fuck and wanna meet everyone I associate with), but if I (as a person of-age) were living with them they wouldn't request formal dinners with people I meet; even they would be willing to talk to those friends a little if they came over for a visit, or came to pick me up for something. They understand that after a certain age, asking someone (especially of the opposite sex) sends a certain message, and would keep that in mind when trying to arrange something. I wouldn't be shocked if the guy used this as an opportunity to ask the girl out unofficially, and now is in denial that he ever intended it to be a date (though since he says he now wants to ask her out "again," even he isn't completely sold on that front).

I agree that the guy was probably using it as an excuse to make it a date. Kind of like showing up with two tickets to a movie accidentally and saying, "Wow, that's crazy, I accidentally got two -- wanna go?" It was likely just testing the waters.

But the problem there is the guy not being honest with himself (or his lady-friend) about the dating issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting folks to meet your family, or your family wanting to meet your friends (as long as, being an adult, you can say "no" or "not yet," which we have no reason to believe isn't the case). There is no reason to assume it was some kind of parental "approval process."

It would be like if my reply to Lara was, "Just because you're not on good terms with your family, or your family's a bunch of nosy nutters doesn't mean everyone is like that." A reply like that makes a lot of off-base assumptions about a person's family and values, and has no basis in fact but rather in trying to have a bit of a sting to it.

Dastardly:

minuialear:
-snip-

I agree that the guy was probably using it as an excuse to make it a date. Kind of like showing up with two tickets to a movie accidentally and saying, "Wow, that's crazy, I accidentally got two -- wanna go?" It was likely just testing the waters.

But the problem there is the guy not being honest with himself (or his lady-friend) about the dating issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting folks to meet your family, or your family wanting to meet your friends (as long as, being an adult, you can say "no" or "not yet," which we have no reason to believe isn't the case). There is no reason to assume it was some kind of parental "approval process."

It would be like if my reply to Lara was, "Just because you're not on good terms with your family, or your family's a bunch of nosy nutters doesn't mean everyone is like that." A reply like that makes a lot of off-base assumptions about a person's family and values, and has no basis in fact but rather in trying to have a bit of a sting to it.

I agree with that. After re-reading that sentence it does sound like she was off the mark on the approval part.

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