Nice Guys Suck

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Nice Guys Suck

"Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't just a song by Green Day.

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So THAT's what I've been doing wrong all these years. Excuse me...
*Runs off to the store to buy a bad hat*

I've never actually read one of these before, but having a substantial dating past, I will now give my two cents to be flamed later on:

Nice Guys™ are dastardly bastards who are only hiding their insecurites. Nice guys are people who wear their insecurities on their sleeve.

The answer is, be genuinely respectful to members of the opposite sex. But don't think you can be a Nice Guy™ or nice guy and be an insecure little wretch. Confidence is all that matters. What about you makes you in some way better than everyone else in the room? Keep that in mind, but don't tell your date about why you rock and others suck.

If a girl you have recently met is sitting there and telling you her feelings, she already only sees you as a friend. Sometimes dating, sex and a good relationships comes from that, but the majority of the time it does not.

The difference between how a romantic relationship and a friendship starts are completely different. The former starts out with some level of interest that is probably only based on attraction. The best way to attract a girl is to be confident in who you are and the things you say and do. With a truly confident person, a mistake comes off as a cute little error. With a neurotic mess who is not confident, it seems like an earth shattering error that there is not coming back from. It's displayed in verbal and body language.

In the latter starts out with no attraction. Nice guys are often willing to listen and even put the other person before themselves, but the initially reason for contact is not based on attraction, but a need to fill an emotional void.

This is important, when a girl is attracted to you, the void doesn't exist till you are not there, if a girl is not attracted to you, the void exists and you are the first person to come along and fill it.

That is my two cents. Flame away. :)

Good article, as i was one of the readers who found the disdainful remarks about Nice Guys a bit offensive, i'm glad of the clarification and can say with personal confidence that i'm a nice guy and not a Nice Guy (TM).

Last paragraph was also interesting, should we be moaning about being introverted guys then instead? However, what happens when this goes too far and we make another distinction between introverted guys and Introverted Guys (TM)?

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

Well, it didn't really bother me to be honest, I know I'm not either version of a "nice guy"

I usually don't hide the fact I'm a sarcastic bastard who sometimes likes to fuck with people. That and for some reason people don't seem to want to talk with me *shrug* oh well, back to blowin shit up I go!

Despite your clarification, I can't help but feel like you still have an aversion to "nice guys" in terms of people who are just generally good people. My question is, what is wrong with wanting someone who is just generally good as a base "ideal person" to look for in a relationship. We should all want to be with people who will treat us with respect and kindness and to accept anything less just seems rather stupid.

Also, I move we switch calling "Nice Guys tm" to something less confusing because that's all it really will lead to anyway. Why not call them manipulators? "Masterminds"? Riddlers, so to speak. Those all seem to fit much better from where I'm sitting.

oddly the clarification doesn't feel any less insulting and still amounts to : girls don't want nice guys, you're better off being a jerk than being yourself.

Nice guys suck eh? What about nice girls?

What if you're just a nice guy naturally? I'm still a guy, I do guy things. I just happen to be a little more compassionate than 40% of my hometown's male population.

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

Yup, I noticed the mixed message as well. It nearly felt like us introverted guys, who don't have to be Nice Guys, are now, by Lara at least, condemned to loneliness.

I think people are missing the point here. The author isn't saying that you shouldn't be nice. They're saying that you shouldn't be friends with someone and be nice while expecting that they'll return your feelings and condemn them when they don't.

I'll try to add a good example here: "She should love me! I deserve her because I listened to her problems, gave her gifts, and treated her with respect. I am entitled to have her because I was nice, whether she likes me or not."

That's completely different than: "I am nice and polite to women. If they don't like me then I will continue to be nice to them, and try to find someone else."

What if you're in between the two?

-|-:
Nice guys suck eh? What about nice girls?

Might I suggest you read the article and find out?

When I was younger (15-16), I was Nice Guy... what an asshole/dick I was :P
So, I think she's right; it's important to make a difference between Nice Guy and nice guy... It makes me think of the xkcd comic:
http://xkcd.com/513/

Nickolai77:
Good article, as i was one of the readers who found the disdainful remarks about Nice Guys a bit offensive, i'm glad of the clarification and can say with personal confidence that i'm a nice guy and not a Nice Guy (TM).

Last paragraph was also interesting, should we be moaning about being introverted guys then instead? However, what happens when this goes too far and we make another distinction between introverted guys and Introverted Guys (TM)?

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

The problem is, I don't think is I don't think being introvert (or extrovert) should be called a "personality trait". It's more a scaling on which you show the word the guy you know called "me".

Just my opinion :)

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead. is my new goddamn tag line. This made the article awesome

Oh, yeah, there was other stuff. Yeah pretty much agree, you seen nice guys (TM) all over, it kinda pisses me off. Is it that hard to just be who you are?

Formica Archonis:

-|-:
Nice guys suck eh? What about nice girls?

Might I suggest you read the article and find out?

For readers that didn't notice, that was innuendo.

I can't help but feel a little assaulted by this article. Excuse me for wanting to actually know someone before I pursue a relationship with them. I'm 22 and i've only seriously dated 2 people, and I'm totally fine with that. Both of them were women that i had been friends with prior and we casually flirted a little and eventually started dating. Both of them were very positive relationships that i would not have done any differently. You seem to be saying that since being a nice guy won't get you every woman in the room its a bad personality. And, from where i'm sitting, that is a very sad perspective.

Nice Guys(tm) are annoying and should be derided and hopefully removed from the gene pool. But "nice guys" still risk finishing last, and it is always good to try being a jerk once in awhile to see how well it works with women. One eventually discovers this when they loose interest in someone they are dating so start being an asshole at which point the woman sticks on like glue. One day you realize, even if you aren't trying to get rid of someone, being an asshole has it's uses. So I'm not saying to just be a nice guy or just be a jerk but keep things fresh by mixing it up once in awhile. Now I don't know what attraction women have to being treated like dirt, I don't get it--it seems totally independent of self-esteem issues--but it might be an interesting read from a love advice collumn.

I may be a Nice Guy™, with a hearty dose of neurosis and self loathing. Any advice?

Would be interesting to look into what behaviours women have that foster/reinforce the "Nice Guy TM" behaviour in men.

I think that's one thing that's always annoyed me about the Nice Guy theory, it feels like a cop-out by women.

Great post Lara...too bad that many people here aren't going to get it. They think they are "nice guys" but really they are Nice Guys (TM).

Hey all you folks who think you are nice guys and women are the problem because they won't date you because they only date jerks...you often go on about how you listen to women...well listen to them when they tell you nice guys are usually entitled jerks and not nice at all.

Here is a website that talks more about this in depth...
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

Opening text on the page:

"All too often we hear self-professed "Nice Guys" complaining about why they can't get a date, and whining that women just want to date jerks, etc. etc. The truth of the matter is that there are genuinely caring, compassionate, decent, fun guys out there who have NO TROUBLE meeting people, getting dates, and having relationships.

Unfortunately, many of the guys who DO have trouble, insist that women don't want them because they are "too Nice". These people who call themselves "Nice Guys" can't see that THEIR OWN behavior is the problem. That behavior either drives women away or attracts the WORST kind of predator - one who is manipulative and self-serving. Whether it is targeting women who are troubled to begin with, setting themselves up to be taken advantage of, or acting in a manipulative, patronizing or obsequious fashion, these guys sabotage themselves and often blame "all women" for their misfortunes.

This section is devoted to the guys who suffer from that self-professed "Nice Guy" affliction. Here is the place to find out why YOUR behavior isn't as "Nice" as you think it is..."

I'm generally a nice person, bu I'm not afraid to be a dick to people that I don't approve of or at least clearly or subtly express my discontent with or for them. I'm generally quite a kind person, and I usually try to get along with people. If I want to listen to someone's problems then I listen, and if I don't, then um... I guess I'll listen, but I might not really offer much in terms of consolement. I'll tell them my casserole is burning and try to get outta there. But then there are people who I don't like. I will ignore them as much as possible, and I will be short with them. There is currently someone at my school that I find to be terribly annoying and purposefully does things that she knows people find odd and embarrassing, so even though I can tell that she wants to be friends with me, I flat out ignore her. I don't respond to her when she talks to me, nor do I even glance in her direction. If she is talking directly to me, I don't look at her, and if someone is trying to tell me that she is trying to tell me something, then I tend to ignore them until they stop trying to alert me that she is talking to me. So yeah, I am a nice guy, but I am not so nice to people who I don't care for. But unless I am really pissed beyond belief, I still wouldn't curse someone out or use physical violence to make them go away. If someone is really nice, then I might not be a total dick to them, but I can't say that I've found myself disliking anyone that I have found to be nice.

GrandmaFunk:
Would be interesting to look into what behaviours women have that foster/reinforce the "Nice Guy TM" behaviour in men.

I think that's one thing that's always annoyed me about the Nice Guy theory, it feels like a cop-out by women.

Well, I'd imagine that some men/women who really like attention string people along to get it. But TBH, I think the real culprit here is the various romantic comedies/tv shows/bioware games that essentially tell people that if you're nice enough to someone you're attracted to, they will reward you with sex.

trooper6:

Unfortunately, many of the guys who DO have trouble, insist that women don't want them because they are "too Nice".

Ya, but to be fair, that's what women actually do tell them.

trooper6:

These people who call themselves "Nice Guys" can't see that THEIR OWN behavior is the problem. That behavior either drives women away or attracts the WORST kind of predator - one who is manipulative and self-serving. Whether it is targeting women who are troubled to begin with, setting themselves up to be taken advantage of, or acting in a manipulative, patronizing or obsequious fashion, these guys sabotage themselves and often blame "all women" for their misfortunes.

obviously it's always wrong to blame "all" of any group for anything, but surely some women are to be blamed in some of these cases.

yes, Nice Guys set themselves up to be emotionally used by their women 'friends'....but just like it takes two to tango, it takes a woman (ab)using the Nice Guy's issues to get him to that entitlement phase.

ie: a lot less guys would end up in that whiny "but i do everything for her, she should love me!" point if the women in their lives stopped letting the Nice Guys do everything for them.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I read rants about the evils of Nice Guys, it feels a lot like blaming the victim.

Thank you Lara for explaining this. I know exactly what your talking about and I cannot tell you how much I hate Nice Guys™. Nice Guys™ cannot take the time to pop through their emotional bubble wrap to understand how much of a soul sucking nitwit they really are.

In my own experience, nice guys are great boyfriends but not great lovers. Just because you are all rainbows and sparkles usually should not mean you are a bit dull in the bedroom department.

you people do realise that this is the opinion of ONE woman?
bias is inevitable, she likes extroverted guys, that's it, and while that is generally an attractive trait, you may just find another girl who likes the quiet type.

GrandmaFunk:

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I read rants about the evils of Nice Guys, it feels a lot like blaming the victim.

The problem is that Nice Guys (TM) aren't victims...for the most part they are passive-aggressive manipulators who harass their female friends. Tt the extreme end they end up like a couple of those guys like George Sodini who killed women in a gym in Pennsylvania because women don't date nice guys like him.

If you think you're a victim because a woman won't date you...then you are a Nice Guy (TM) and not a nice guy. No woman (no person) is obligated to date you. You are not owed a date by anyone. Not getting a date doesn't make you a victim. A woman turning you down for a date doesn't make her a victimizer.

Combustion Kevin:
you people do realise that this is the opinion of ONE woman?
bias is inevitable, she likes extroverted guys, that's it, and while that is generally an attractive trait, you may just find another girl who likes the quiet type.

Plenty of women like quiet men - it's why it hasn't been weeded out of the gene pool. It's more about whether women like creepy, manipulative men (spoilers: generally not.)

Excellent insight on the "nice guy" situation, said it better than I ever could. I'm tired of seeing these people complain about "douchebags" getting all the girls when really they're even more of a misogynistic dickhole.

I think people are misinterpreting Lara's point. She's not saying being nice is bad. She's saying being nice is not enough. Being nice is merely a prerequisite; an expected trait that's noticed if lacked but otherwise ignored.

Though to be honest, I know I'm an emotionally stunted jerkass introvert whom no girl would want and thus has never actually given a fuck about relationships, so I could be wrong due to my total lack of knowledge on the matter. Why I even post here is beyond me.

Combustion Kevin:
you people do realise that this is the opinion of ONE woman?
bias is inevitable, she likes extroverted guys, that's it, and while that is generally an attractive trait, you may just find another girl who likes the quiet type.

It isn't about extroversion or introversion.

You can be a quiet guy who is interesting, with hobbies and opinions and things about yourself that are cool. And you can be an extroverted guy who has none of that going on.

Her point is that you should have more to your life and personality than just "I'm nice."

Of course if you are so introverted as to have social anxiety and you never leave your house or talk to or interact with people you might be attracted to...it is really going to be hard to end up getting a date.

Introverted or extroverted, you have to put yourself out there. And when you do, you have to have something that will make a person interested in you...something besides that you are a kind person.

If there is *nothing* about you that in interesting...then you need to do some work on yourself before you go off dating other people. You need to become someone who is interesting to yourself before you can be interesting to others. You have to have something to bring to a relationship. If might be your love of anime or your knowledge of birds or yours skills as a writer...but you have to have something.

I never date people who don't have passion for something, who don't have a developed personality, thoughts of their own. They don't have to be extraverts...but they can't be a person with no interest.

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

Well it depends on who you want to attract, the timid quiet guy works perfectly well once you are ready for a family, but up to that point the dating games requires you to be loud and proud or, if you don't stand out you will stay behind.

The choice is yours.

GrandmaFunk:
oddly the clarification doesn't feel any less insulting and still amounts to : girls don't want nice guys, you're better off being a jerk than being yourself.

You misread it. Gals do want nice guys who are themselves...and those selves are interesting (which might be introverted or extroverted). What they don't want is jerks. Many of the so-called Nice Guys (TM) are not actually nice guys, but jerks...which is why women don't like them.

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