Nice Guys Suck

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Oh, so THIS is the guide to being able to date any female you could ever imagine. Thank God women are such simple creatures that the same thing works for all of them. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I'm incredibly awkward and my current girlfriend somehow finds that to be fine. Probably because I'm NOT a supernova. A lot of people aren't. And if you try to be a supernova, you'll attract people that you don't even like. So screw being a supernova, be yourself.

YES YES YES!!!!!

I've been telling the Nice Guys I meet online for years that if this is how you identify yourself, it just means that you have no discernible personality. Being polite does not mean being conflict-averse. Being kind does not mean being a doormat.

The very worst trait of a Nice Guy(tm) is that you never, ever know what's actually going on in his head. Does he really not mind, or is he just SAYING he doesn't mind while secretly being angry and resentful? Particularly because nobody can willfully Not Mind for very long and they always explode later.

The one that always gets me is when I say (honestly) that I don't mind something (e.g. I don't really care if we go to the restaurant that isn't my favorite this time), and they keep BADGERING me about it because they ASSUME I MUST BE UPSET until I do actually GET ANGRY AT THE BADGERING. I wasn't angry before, dumbass, but I SURE AM NOW CONGRATULATIONS.

Even if you truly are a douche and you like to be cruel to people and resent even the smallest request for patience, understanding, or compromise, it's better to be HONEST about that fact rather than be a Nice Guy(tm)

trooper6:

The problem is that Nice Guys (TM) aren't victims...for the most part they are passive-aggressive manipulators who harass their female friends. Tt the extreme end they end up like a couple of those guys like George Sodini who killed women in a gym in Pennsylvania because women don't date nice guys like him.

If you think you're a victim because a woman won't date you...then you are a Nice Guy (TM) and not a nice guy. No woman (no person) is obligated to date you. You are not owed a date by anyone. Not getting a date doesn't make you a victim. A woman turning you down for a date doesn't make her a victimizer.

ya, you missed my point entirely. and managed to elevate nice guy tendencies to "potential serial killer watch list" level, awesome.

i'll try to reiterate:

NO, being turned down for a date doesn't make you a victim, and no, turning someone down doesn't make you a "victimizer".

the victim elements comes in the weeks/months/years preceding that.

you claim "most" are manipulators, whereas my point is that they are often the ones being manipulated.

if a man spends months trying to win a woman over, usually by being her emotional dumping ground, obviously it does not entitle him to sex..but if the woman isn't interested, why does she allow this to continue so long? obviously the woman is getting something out of this, and it's fair for her to assume the 'kindness' is given for it's own sake..at first.

but come on, it becomes pretty obvious pretty fast that the guy you friend-zoned is still interested in you and is doing all this with a heart/head filled with hope.

so yes, in this case he is a victim, his weakness is being exploited.

GrandmaFunk:

if a man spends months trying to win a woman over, usually by being her emotional dumping ground, obviously it does not entitle him to sex..but if the woman isn't interested, why does she allow this to continue so long? obviously the woman is getting something out of this, and it's fair for her to assume the 'kindness' is given for it's own sake..at first.

but come on, it becomes pretty obvious pretty fast that the guy you friend-zoned is still interested in you and is doing all this with a heart/head filled with hope.

so yes, in this case he is a victim, his weakness is being exploited.

Or, she thinks of the guy as a friend and confides in him because he's a friend. It's not exactly her fault that this friendly behavior isn't on the level, and the situation she ends up in (she has a friend who is attracted to her, she isn't attracted to, and who she doesn't want to lose the friendship of) isn't exactly an easy one to defuse.

This is the first one of these that hasn't made me angry reading, so good job I guess :P

As a person I would hate to be labeled as nice. If that is your identifying feature you are boring and there is not much to your personality. I would rather be identified as funny, charming, intelligent, quirky, or even crazy. Being labeled as nice often means that is the core of your personality. It sounds good, but its horrible. You don't have to be a jerk to get dates and relationships. You do have to stand up for yourself and show that you have confidence. Nice guys don't do this. Why? When they show confidence and stand up for them self they are no longer being nice. The label gets stripped away and a new one gets applied. This is why all of the guys complaining in this forum make me laugh."I am a nice guy not a Nice Guy but here me whine about you saying bad stuff about nice people." Grow some confidence because if you had some you would know the article wasn't written for you or about you and that there is no reason to whine or complain about it.

Kahunaburger:

GrandmaFunk:

if a man spends months trying to win a woman over, usually by being her emotional dumping ground, obviously it does not entitle him to sex..but if the woman isn't interested, why does she allow this to continue so long? obviously the woman is getting something out of this, and it's fair for her to assume the 'kindness' is given for it's own sake..at first.

but come on, it becomes pretty obvious pretty fast that the guy you friend-zoned is still interested in you and is doing all this with a heart/head filled with hope.

so yes, in this case he is a victim, his weakness is being exploited.

Or, she thinks of the guy as a friend and confides in him because he's a friend. It's not exactly her fault that this friendly behavior isn't on the level, and the situation she ends up in (she has a friend who is attracted to her, she isn't attracted to, and who she doesn't want to lose the friendship of) isn't exactly an easy one to defuse.

This a thousand times over. It's bad for both parties when the inevitable 'I'm just not that into you.' comes up because you will lose a friend OR you will have to try and ignore the seething disappointment.

GrandmaFunk:

if a man spends months trying to win a woman over, usually by being her emotional dumping ground, obviously it does not entitle him to sex..but if the woman isn't interested, why does she allow this to continue so long? obviously the woman is getting something out of this, and it's fair for her to assume the 'kindness' is given for it's own sake..at first.

but come on, it becomes pretty obvious pretty fast that the guy you friend-zoned is still interested in you and is doing all this with a heart/head filled with hope.

so yes, in this case he is a victim, his weakness is being exploited.

Here is where we are going to disagree. Most Nice Guys (TM) dishonest liars. They say, "I want to be your friend, that is why I"m being so kind to you and listening to your problems."
And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship. Friends talk about each others feelings and hang out. But the Nice Guy (TM) lied to the girl about wanting to be friends just so he can hope to get into her pants...she is not leading him on, he is not the victim. He's a lying, deceiving, manipulative creep.

I have lots of female (and male) friends who tell me their problems, and we go out to dinner and hang out and everything is fine between us. Why? Because I'm not faking friendship in order to get in their pants and then blaming them for not coming around. When I listen to her problems I'm not being an emotional dumping ground...I'm being a friend...and actual friend, not one who is only listening for ulterior motives. And my friends listen to me in return. When I'm stressed out about some creepy thing at work, she is there for me. When she wants to blow off some steam about her boyfriend, I'm there for her. I never feel aggrieved because I'm her actual friend.

Kahunaburger:

Or, she thinks of the guy as a friend and confides in him because he's a friend. It's not exactly her fault that this friendly behavior isn't on the level, and the situation she ends up in (she has a friend who is attracted to her, she isn't attracted to, and who she doesn't want to lose the friendship of) isn't exactly an easy one to defuse.

double-standard ahoy!

it's not her fault that he isn't clear about his emotions, but it is his fault that she knowingly keeps the situation going because "she doesn't want to lose the friendship".

Im not saying it's not a complicated situation, nor am i saying the blame is all on the woman....i'm just trying to point out that these situations usually only happen when BOTH parties are contributing to the "Nice Guy" dynamic.

Cowabungaa:

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

Yup, I noticed the mixed message as well. It nearly felt like us introverted guys, who don't have to be Nice Guys, are now, by Lara at least, condemned to loneliness.

Pretty sure she was just talking about what she's attracted to personally.

trooper6:

...And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship.

Ya, that's not actually a friendship. that's the friend zone.

if you think it's the same as a real friendship, you're deceiving yourself just as much as the nice guy is.

taking offers of "lets just be friends" at face value stops being a valid response for either gender when you're over 20.

GrandmaFunk:

Kahunaburger:

Or, she thinks of the guy as a friend and confides in him because he's a friend. It's not exactly her fault that this friendly behavior isn't on the level, and the situation she ends up in (she has a friend who is attracted to her, she isn't attracted to, and who she doesn't want to lose the friendship of) isn't exactly an easy one to defuse.

double-standard ahoy!

it's not her fault that he isn't clear about his emotions, but it is his fault that she knowingly keeps the situation going because "she doesn't want to lose the friendship".

Im not saying it's not a complicated situation, nor am i saying the blame is all on the woman....i'm just trying to point out that these situations usually only happen when BOTH parties are contributing to the "Nice Guy" dynamic.

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move. Generally people say something along the lines of "I'm not attracted to you, but I value your friendship." That doesn't strike me as contributing to the dynamic.

As a reformed Nice Guy, I've learned that the best friend->lover tactic just isn't effective. Heck, the one time that actually worked for me, she & I realized that we just weren't a good match romantically. Others' results may vary, but none of my worthwhile relationships happened without the risk of rejection at some point. And that feeling you get when you go out on a limb & kiss her, and she kisses you back, is freakin' awesome.

Nice Guy tm stuff reminds me of the SMBC theatre sketch 'Just Friendship' > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH79IeSe0I0

Nice stuff anyway, I really like reading Love FAQ.

GrandmaFunk:

trooper6:

...And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship.

Ya, that's not actually a friendship. that's the friend zone.

if you think it's the same as a real friendship, you're deceiving yourself just as much as the nice guy is.

taking offers of "lets just be friends" at face value stops being a valid response for either gender when you're over 20.

Let's see...I'm 39, and have lots of friends of all genders. When women tell me they are not attracted to me, I believe them and behave accordingly. And I've never had any problems. I've met a couple creepy female versions of the Nice Guy (TM) who were passive-aggresive liars...but thankfully not too many. I've had many a great relationship (romantic and otherwise), and take responsibility for my actions and my emotions. I'm honest in my dealings with others and I have no bitterness towards women.

Also, if there is someone I like, rather than passive-aggressive ulterior motive "friendship" with her, I'll tell her. And if she rejects the offer then I decide, can I be friends with her at the moment considering my feelings? If I can, then I do and we are friends. If I can't, then I take space until I can.

So, I'm doing pretty fine. I don't get used or dumped on, I don't use or dump on others.

last point: about the whole "but they're liars!" side of things.

yes, they lie.

they lie when they say that they're ok with being just friends, they lie when they say that they don't mind hearing you complain about your boyfriend..but mostly: they lie to themselves.

Nice Guys in general are NOT malicious. they're misguided, they're foolish and yes, they're bad at being truthful(to themselves and others) but they are not going out and preying on women.

no guy wants to be in the Nice Guy position, most guys that are like this don't even know it...they're just doing their best trying to sort out their feelings and trying to get just what the heck women want.

Good to see some clarification there, but I still take issue with this:

'And next time, be honest about your intentions from the very get-go.'

So you should immediately ask someone out if you find them attractive without any attempt to get to know them, forgoing any chance to see if you're actually right for each other in the first place? Okay sure...that's not impetuous or anything...

As for this whole 'Nice guy' thing I think it comes down to intent and sense of entitlement, this being a fairly good summary:

mechashiva77:
I'll try to add a good example here: "She should love me! I deserve her because I listened to her problems, gave her gifts, and treated her with respect. I am entitled to have her because I was nice, whether she likes me or not."

That's completely different than: "I am nice and polite to women. If they don't like me then I will continue to be nice to them, and try to find someone else."

The former is obssessive and uncapable of accepting their feelings are unrequited, who's only stake in being 'nice' is the hope of being emotionally/physically compensated, while the latter doesn't need to be told twice and won't hold some petty grudge over the person they were after. If we can just level it down to that, it'd be great, at the moment I'm a little concerned that people seem to be conflating introverted, reticent, coy or passive/accomadating behaviour with that of the 'Nice guy'. And another thing:

JaceArveduin:
I know I'm not either version of a "nice guy".

Ditto, it just comes off as arrogant to hear anyone proclaim themselves to be a nice guy/'nice guy'. I think neutral would be the best description for me.

JaceArveduin:
oh well, back to blowin shit up I go!

I hope that's a game you're talking about there Jace...otherwise I might class you as Chaotic Nuetral. :3

GrandmaFunk:

trooper6:

...And the woman says, "Great, because you are in the freind-zone."

Then they have a friendship.

Ya, that's not actually a friendship. that's the friend zone.

if you think it's the same as a real friendship, you're deceiving yourself just as much as the nice guy is.

taking offers of "lets just be friends" at face value stops being a valid response for either gender when you're over 20.

Really? So when I tell a man I'm not interested in him romantically, but offer that we can still be friends, and he accepts - I should just assume he's lying to my face and using it as a part of a long term strategy to get into my pants? If he was like "nope, no thanks I wanted you as a romantic partner but I'm not really interested in a friendship" I'd completely respect that. But, instead, he lies and accepts the offer of friendship and assuming he has done so in good faith makes me the bad guy?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw.

Sorry dude, I have lots of "actual friends" who are male. It is entirely possible. We are all over 20. They are not lying fucks. Many of them are married. We just happen to have no romantic connection. The Nice Guy in this scenario is nothing but a skeezy, lying fuck. And that just ain't anybody's fault but his.

FinalHeart95:
Oh, so THIS is the guide to being able to date any female you could ever imagine. Thank God women are such simple creatures that the same thing works for all of them. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I'm incredibly awkward and my current girlfriend somehow finds that to be fine. Probably because I'm NOT a supernova. A lot of people aren't. And if you try to be a supernova, you'll attract people that you don't even like. So screw being a supernova, be yourself.

I think you're kind of missing the point. When she said "be a supernova" she basically meant "be yourself". She's demonstrating that being "nice" isn't a personality, it's just a trait. A personality is the sum of what you do and how you act. You should play up what your good at and people (ones that you actually like) will be probably be a lot more attracted to you.

Here's a phenomenon that needs to go away, the perceived dichotomy of either being totally nice or a complete jerk. There's a whole gulf of people in between, you're never just one or the other. You don't need to be a center-of-attention jerk-off just to get women, and being a bit shy or awkward isn't a going to make you forever alone.

Kahunaburger:

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

OmniscientOstrich:

So you should immediately ask someone out if you find them attractive without any attempt to get to know them, forgoing any chance to see if you're actually right for each other in the first place? Okay sure...that's not impetuous or anything...

Well you ask someone out in order to get to know them better to see if you might possibly have some chemistry (romantic, political, social, intellectual, etc).

That first outing doesn't have to be all romantic and high pressure either...I find meeting for lunch or coffee to be the best thing. It is low key and mellow. You meet, eat, and talk...get to know each other better. If there is no spark then you don't go out again, if there is a possible spark, you go out to another lunch or dinner or whatever and continue the get to know each other process.

Ariseishirou:
he lies and accepts the offer of friendship and assuming he has done so in good faith makes me the bad guy?

it doesn't make you the bad guy, it makes you painfully naive.

Ariseishirou:

Sorry dude, I have lots of "actual friends" who are male. It is entirely possible. We are all over 20. They are not lying fucks. Many of them are married. We just happen to have no romantic connection.

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

GrandmaFunk:

Kahunaburger:

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

Or you go get some therapy or do work on yourself or you take responsibility for yourself.

Was I treated poorly in high school? Yeah. Do I let that define me now? No.

If you are weighed down with high school baggage, you need to work on that first before you start dating. It isn't fair to you or your partner.

GrandmaFunk:

Kahunaburger:

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

Because people apparently never outgrow their inexperienced high school years? News to me. Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

GrandmaFunk:
how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

Several. They moved on romantically, got other girlfriends or wives, while we still hung out together and played D&D or vidya and generally had good times.

So yeah, not every man who tells a woman that he's okay with being "just friends" is completely full of shit, thus it would be unfair of me to assume they all are.

No matter what you tell me, my default position is never going to be that all or even most men are passive-aggressive liars. I know from experience - know too many good men - to accept that as true. They're not. You might be, or the men you know might be, but that's on you and them, not men in general.

Kahunaburger:
Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

much like it's pretty easy to recognize when you are the one stringing someone else along.

and much like it's pretty easy to recognize that your "friend" is actually interested in you and is holding out hope that being 'Nice' will pay off.

which is why the whole "but I don't want to lose the friendship" line is a huge cop-out that amounts to "i don't want to give up my benefits".

Cowabungaa:

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

Yup, I noticed the mixed message as well. It nearly felt like us introverted guys, who don't have to be Nice Guys, are now, by Lara at least, condemned to loneliness.

Yeah, fuck me if I don't happen to be a mix of all the types of guys we've mentioned just now(nice guy, "nice guy", introvert - at least when it comes to girls)...First thing I thought when I finished reading all this was "Oh well, might as well join a monastery or something, because according to this I won't find love in my life".

Ah but who cares what Lara, or anyone else says. I know I'm lovable, I'm just a bit socially retarded. Hakuna Matata! :D

GrandmaFunk:

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

The context isn't dates a person has rejected. Because the Nice Guy doesn't ask for dates in the first place. He is too passive-aggressive and dishonest for that. Instead he starts of with the lie of ulterior motive friendship, never giving the girl the chance to reject him in the first place.

Creepy nice-guys/gals? I don't have friendships with them.

On the other hand, I have had and continue to have friendships (real friendships) with ex-girlfriends, with people who asked me out (before a fake friendship) who I turned down, and people who I asked out and who turned me down. I also have people I've asked out, who turned me down (or vice-versa) who I haven't built friendships with. People who are upfront enough to be honest and just ask a person out rather than doing the passive-aggressive "friend" thing, are usually mature and honest enough with their own feelings to be trusted to have an actual friendship with without their being something creepy underneath.

Ariseishirou:

So yeah, not every man who tells a woman that he's okay with being "just friends" is completely full of shit, thus it would be unfair of me to assume they all are.

would it be fair of you to assume that some might be?

because that's what I'm trying to communicate.

GrandmaFunk:

how many of those started off as dates you rejected? because that's the context being discussed, not whether opposite genders can be real friends in general.

Out of the ~10 girls I consider "close friends", there's one I actually fell in love with. She rejected me, I got disappointed, life went on, my infatuation went away, we're still close friends today. Why? Because I realized that she's got every right to not want to date me, but I still enjoy being her friend enough to get my head out of my ass and get over her.

For all my other close female friends? They're all awesome, I just never actually fell in love with them. Not all male-female-friend-relationships starts with one of them falling in love with the other.

GrandmaFunk:

Kahunaburger:
Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

much like it's pretty easy to recognize when you are the one stringing someone else along.

and much like it's pretty easy to recognize that your "friend" is actually interested in you and is holding out hope that being 'Nice' will pay off.

which is why the whole "but I don't want to lose the friendship" line is a huge cop-out that amounts to "i don't want to give up my benefits".

Well, maybe that person holding out should just move on maybe? It's not a one way street. I am still friends with people that have claimed to be desperately in ,ove with me, and they moved on, like people do.

GrandmaFunk:

Kahunaburger:

Well, the unattracted party in this particular situation *can* string the attracted party along, but that would be A) kind of a dick move, and B)a pretty uncommon move.

I'd bet it's just as common as Nice Guys are.

and all it takes is going through that once or twice in your teens to make you a Nice Guy for life.

Are you joking? That is a messed up thing to assert. I had a male friend string me along when I was a teenager, too, when he was actually interested in a friend of mine and using our friendship to get to her. The writing was on the wall but I was in denial, telling myself that maybe, if I just held on long enough he'd notice me... It didn't ruin me for relationships forever. I realized I'd let it happen, that I was never going to get what I wanted out of him, and I moved on. Asked out another guy I liked. That is what a normal, well-adjusted adult does. They don't remain mired in the bad habits of their developmental years forever - they learn, grow, and mature.

Insisting that men - or people in general? - can never learn from their mistakes is one hell of a skewed and immature worldview. As is blaming someone for believing another person when they lie. No dude, it's the liar's fault. Always is and always will be.

GrandmaFunk:

Kahunaburger:
Being strung along sucks (and for the record isn't just something women do), but it's pretty easy to recognize and avoid once you know what it looks like.

much like it's pretty easy to recognize when you are the one stringing someone else along.

and much like it's pretty easy to recognize that your "friend" is actually interested in you and is holding out hope that being 'Nice' will pay off.

which is why the whole "but I don't want to lose the friendship" line is a huge cop-out that amounts to "i don't want to give up my benefitsfriendship".

Fixed for you.

Being someone's friend isn't stringing them along. Even if the psychic powers you apparently have fail to reveal that your friend isn't over being attracted to you.

Hey, speaking of psychic powers and people not getting over high school, you know what this whole thread reminds me of?

I'm SO glad I read this. I almost got mad when reading the title, but now, I've really learned something by reading this.

Skip being the Nice Guy(TradeSnark) and don't settle for being a Casanova unless you're just looking to get laid.

Instead, be a Supernova!

trooper6:
..Because the Nice Guy doesn't ask for dates in the first place. He is too passive-aggressive and dishonest for that. Instead he starts of with the lie of ulterior motive friendship, never giving the girl the chance to reject him in the first place.

I guess this is where the conversation falls apart, because we're apparently using differing definitions of what a Nice Guy actually is.

you're pretty much stuck on the idea that Nice Guy behaviour is premeditated and manipulative, whereas I see Nice Guy as a dynamic/pattern that some guys evolve into despite themselves.

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