Nice Guys Suck

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When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

Really sounds like the author got burned bad by a nice guy who she liked but he was to shy or something to act on it. lol.

You know it seems that recently there has been a massive backlash against 'Nice Guys' and while I do think this is appropriate in some respects I have to argue that for a lot of guys being the 'Nice Guy' is the only thing thing that they believe will bring them close to the chance of a relationship.

Lets look at an example of the 'Nice Guy', he's most likely between the ages of 15-25, is not the best or worst looking guy in the bunch, doesn't have any real hobbies/interests/sports except for playing games/spending time on the internet. Now for most guys in this age group the only advice they typically get about meeting girls is from other guys (Which btw is a horrible source of information for this type of thing) or media (Which is somehow even worse). These are the guys who have been brought up thinking that the dating process is basically an algorithm. 'Oh yeah dude learn how to play guitar, chicks love musicians.' 'The babes love the guns brah.' It basically becomes 'Do x to get y' (With y always being of course a mate)

So lets look at our example guy. He's average in pretty much everyway, he has no discernible talents whatsoever he can show off to attract a mate, his physique is not astounding in any way whatsoever so what is this young man to do? Well he'll be nice, because in TV/Movies/Books etc nice guys always get the girl after she eventually learns that the other guys are all jerks and he's truly the special one for her. We're that generation. Stupid as it may be we've been brought up to think that by following the pattern (Entering the cheat code) we're guaranteed success.

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

upgray3dd:
When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

It seems absolutely reasonable, yet both Mrs. Crigger and many commentators of this thread seem to believe that an entire demographic of people is thus worthy of demonization.

I completely and absolutely understand the point of this article, and I would normally support it. Sadly, it was horrendously worded, and it paints people who are incompetent and awkward at starting a relationship as universally manipulative and malicious.

Labelling is wrong, when one is attempting to reach the core of a truth.

The lesson is "be a good person, but don't expect to succeed on that alone". It's a foundation, not the whole building. The people missing the point and crying that girls just want assholes is exactly what she's warning you not to do, geniuses.

Eh, I know I'm a nice guy, not a self-entitled over-expectant shit... (the trade-marked "nice guy")....

I've been told "one day" someone will recognise that, but until such time.... Their loss, no-one really knows how "nice" or "caring" I can be, maybe because of years of living in solitude, ignoring almost anything to do with anyone of importance...

I know it sounds like I'm a little "up myself" but, fuck it, no-one cares... The day someone does, then I might pretend they actually exist...

Spirit356:

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

The problem with that, though, is that most people don't bother giving hints or any meaningful advice to those types of guys (which I could say I am one of those "stuck" guys); they just spew the same tired cliches of "Be yourself" and "Have confidence", and fail to go into more specific or proficient detail.

Plus, it doesn't help when this person seems like she's implying that being nice, introverted or unsuccessful with love means that you are an incompetent dick who only want women for sex. Just ridiculous.

Green Day has a song called nice guys finish last?

upgray3dd:
When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

Not only does it sound reasonable, it's the truth. The person I'm about to quote put it best:

Spirit356:
You know it seems that recently there has been a massive backlash against 'Nice Guys' and while I do think this is appropriate in some respects I have to argue that for a lot of guys being the 'Nice Guy' is the only thing thing that they believe will bring them close to the chance of a relationship.

Lets look at an example of the 'Nice Guy', he's most likely between the ages of 15-25, is not the best or worst looking guy in the bunch, doesn't have any real hobbies/interests/sports except for playing games/spending time on the internet. Now for most guys in this age group the only advice they typically get about meeting girls is from other guys (Which btw is a horrible source of information for this type of thing) or media (Which is somehow even worse). These are the guys who have been brought up thinking that the dating process is basically an algorithm. 'Oh yeah dude learn how to play guitar, chicks love musicians.' 'The babes love the guns brah.' It basically becomes 'Do x to get y' (With y always being of course a mate)

So lets look at our example guy. He's average in pretty much everyway, he has no discernible talents whatsoever he can show off to attract a mate, his physique is not astounding in any way whatsoever so what is this young man to do? Well he'll be nice, because in TV/Movies/Books etc nice guys always get the girl after she eventually learns that the other guys are all jerks and he's truly the special one for her. We're that generation. Stupid as it may be we've been brought up to think that by following the pattern (Entering the cheat code) we're guaranteed success.

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

Nice Guys (TM) are inexperienced at dating, and they don't realize that chick flicks are just the female version of video games; fantasies, a "wouldn't it be nice if..." world of make believe. The whole thing with a girl eventually realizing that the guy who's always been there for her is the one for here? Yeah, that's an escapist fantasy for people who know that the world doesn't really work like that. The problem is that those of us who grew up on movies like that wouldn't know the world isn't like that unless we had first hand experience -- which the nice guys (TM) severely lack. We need to be building up these guys and teaching them where they're going wrong, not debasing them as assholes. Otherwise, they run a serious risk of growing up to be bitter old coots who die alone. Case in point:

not_you:
Eh, I know I'm a nice guy, not a self-entitled over-expectant shit... (the trade-marked "nice guy")....

I've been told "one day" someone will recognise that, but until such time.... Their loss, no-one really knows how "nice" or "caring" I can be, maybe because of years of living in solitude, ignoring almost anything to do with anyone of importance...

I know it sounds like I'm a little "up myself" but, fuck it, no-one cares... The day someone does, then I might pretend they actually exist...

MasochisticAvenger:
"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

To both of you: I'm sorry, but you sound /incredibly/ bitter. These are the words of a person who has been rejected so many times that he has not only given up, but become actively angry at the world. And yeah, if you die with absolutely nobody left to mourn you, short of being the last person on the planet, that does suggest you're somewhat worthless as a person. There's a reason the Ghost of Christmas Future showed Scrooge all the people who would be happy at his death if he didn't change his ways.

P.S.: Even if you legitimately don't have a mating urge (which is unlikely; please don't get me started on "asexuals"), you should have some sort of urge to enjoy fraternal relationships. Humans are social creatures; not being interested in so much as friendship goes beyond being anti-social, and into sociopathic territory. You can't expect people to pay attention to you before you show them respect, either. Respect has to be earned, yes, but it's a two way street; if you refuse to show so much as basic human decency, nobody is ever going to show you any respect.

Xeraxis:

The problem with that, though, is that most people don't bother giving hints or any meaningful advice to those types of guys (which I could say I am one of those "stuck" guys); they just spew the same tired cliches of "Be yourself" and "Have confidence", and fail to go into more specific or proficient detail.

Oh the advice is there. The main advice is "Ask her out for lunch." Unless you are up front with what you want, unless you are honest, unless you actually ask a gal out, you won't ever find success. Sure, lots of women you ask may turn you down. But then you pick yourself up and keep trying.

That's the basic. Also, having interests and a life. If you don't have any interests...then go get some.
Not being creepy. You'll have to ask friends of yours, preferably female ones, if you come off like a creeper. If you do, work on changing that.
Not being passive-aggressive. Don't be someone's friend in order to date them. Date them.
No means no. If they are not into you, back off. There are other fish in the sea.

trooper6:

Xeraxis:

The problem with that, though, is that most people don't bother giving hints or any meaningful advice to those types of guys (which I could say I am one of those "stuck" guys); they just spew the same tired cliches of "Be yourself" and "Have confidence", and fail to go into more specific or proficient detail.

Oh the advice is there. The main advice is "Ask her out for lunch." Unless you are up front with what you want, unless you are honest, unless you actually ask a gal out, you won't ever find success. Sure, lots of women you ask may turn you down. But then you pick yourself up and keep trying.

That's the basic. Also, having interests and a life. Not being creepy. Not being passive-aggressive helps.

Also, not trying to date girls you're already friends with. It's easier to move on if you barely know the girl. It's when you were friends first that it gets awkward, because it sets up with a catch 22 where if you let it end the friendship, you lose a friend, but if you don't, you're stuck being friendly with a person that deep in your soul, you know you want more from. There is no way for it to end well without a period of separation -- one that exists more for you to let your head cool off and find some other girl than for her to realize what she's missing.

Owyn_Merrilin:

Also, not trying to date girls you're already friends with. It's easier to move on if you barely know the girl. It's when you were friends first that it gets awkward, because it sets up with a catch 22 where if you let it end the friendship, you lose a friend, but if you don't, you're stuck being friendly with a person that deep in your soul, you know you want more from. There is no way for it to end well without a period of separation -- one that exists more for you to let your head cool off and find some other girl than for her to realize what she's missing.

Owyn_Merrilin is right, but all these awkward "nice guys" don't want to hear it. They think it is better to try and build a "friendship" with a person they are romantically interested in first (because they are too afraid of rejection to ask the person out). But if you are romantically interested in her, then you should start trying to hang out with her in a "let's see if we have a romantic connection" way not in a "just friends until maybe later" way.

Ask her out for lunch. If she says no, she's not interested. Move on. If she says, "Sure," then you go out to lunch and start seeing if you both might be able to make a deeper connection. Heck, it may turn out that you aren't interested in her in the end. Or you both click. Or you decide to be friends instead.

But you have to be honest with the her and yourself or it isn't going to work.

And no insecure self-loathing. If you have lots of insecure self-loathing, go to therapy. That's what it is for.
Or other thing that will help with your self-image and confidence. Start doing some sports, if you don't already. Take up some social hobbies. Get a makeover...whatever it takes. Get advice from people who know you in person.

Owyn_Merrilin:

MasochisticAvenger:
"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

To both of you: I'm sorry, but you sound /incredibly/ bitter. These are the words of a person who has been rejected so many times that he has not only given up, but become actively angry at the world. And yeah, if you die with absolutely nobody left to mourn you, short of being the last person on the planet, that does suggest you're somewhat worthless as a person. There's a reason the Ghost of Christmas Future showed Scrooge all the people who would be happy at his death if he didn't change his ways.

P.S.: Even if you legitimately don't have a mating urge (which is unlikely; please don't get me started on "asexuals"), you should have some sort of urge to enjoy fraternal relationships. Humans are social creatures; not being interested in so much as friendship goes beyond being anti-social, and into sociopathic territory. You can't expect people to pay attention to you before you show them respect, either. Respect has to be earned, yes, but it's a two way street; if you refuse to show so much as basic human decency, nobody is ever going to show you any respect.

When I said I had no interest in relationships (just for the record, I am not an asexual), I meant I had no interest in romantic relationships. I'll admit I'm not the most socialable guy on the planet, but I still do enjoy the friendships I have. I apologize if my original post was misleading or confusing.

I generally agree with her, but that last paragraph was really not needed and is a slap in the face to people who are introverted.

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

That is pretty much summed up as "Be extroverted, not introverted" and generalizing 'shy' with 'insecure/paranoid/dishonest'. The paragraph is just worded badly if you aren't trying to convey this.

I tend to see myself as a nice guy in that it honestly pains me to be a jerk and I try to avoid it as much as possible. Saying that people who are nice have secret agendas and can only prove their honesty by being outgoing seems ridiculous.

Trying to say you are nice, and that that has anything to do with what interests you or what passions you have is dumb, but I feel that simply "putting yourself out there" has little to do with actually fixing the nice guy(tm) issue.

Some of my passions aren't the sort of things that have me singing, dancing, or telling jokes. I express myself through drawing, imagining, creating, and through video games. Because I'm not one to express myself verbally it all the sudden labels my motives as cruel or harsh? I'm not really sure what she's getting at here.

I digress though. I honestly share the overall sentiment of what she is saying and I think I may of just taken it too personal. This issue has always sat in the back of my mind and I felt that this scratched it a bit, but not enough to put it to rest.

Huh. Guess I'm a Nice Guy (TM).

On the other hand, I've already accepted that I'll be foreveralone.jpg.

It's a strange position, I suppose.

Edit: Well, no, that's not entirely correct. I'm a mix of Nice Guy and Nice Guy (TM).

He thinks that as long as he mashes the right sequence of buttons (Listen to her problems! Give her presents! Cheer her up when she's sad!)

Yeah...what's wrong with doing those things, exactly? Expecting her to 'reward' you for doing those things is probably wrong, sure, but just listening to her problems, getting her things she likes, and cheering her up when she's upset are bad things?

I've definitely been going about this the wrong way, then. Time to go treat women like possessions! Apparently that works.

I would be a "Nice Guy" if I was in any way a nice guy.

I refuse to dance to the idiotic mating ritual of the homo sapiens, a dance of extremely high risk with shaky rewards and would require me to become something that I'm not. I'll probably die alone, but I'll have my dignity and a mountain of gold.

Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate your straightforward and honest advice, there are a lot of people who just need to hear the hard truth and learn to deal with it.

So for some reason, as soon as I started reading the second page, I started hear this:

Can't complain.

Owyn_Merrilin:
There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[1], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

[1] or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at

So essentially you're still saying that nice guys are fucked; you're just trying to be more tactful about it.

I've always found these kinds of articles kind of ironic; as committed as their authors can be to not lying and helping people, they really can't come out and say something that most of us have already realized.

Some people are just never going to get "it". They're just too average (or below) or have nothing noticeable or notable about them, and it just will never happen for them. But then telling people that would probably lead to all sorts of psychological and sociological issues.

Paragon Fury:
So essentially you're still saying that nice guys are fucked; you're just trying to be more tactful about it.

I've always found these kinds of articles kind of ironic; as committed as their authors can be to not lying and helping people, they really can't come out and say something that most of us have already realized.

Some people are just never going to get "it". They're just too average (or below) or have nothing noticeable or notable about them, and it just will never happen for them. But then telling people that would probably lead to all sorts of psychological and sociological issues.

No, nice guys just have to...

So don't settle for being "nice". Strive for "amazing", or "unforgettable", or "the greatest man I've ever met".

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

...change practically everything about themselves (That is, turning into an extrovert from an introvert, which is half of your personality) and lose their inhibitions!

Oh wait, no, they're still fucked.
Not everyone can be 'special'. Some people are just average. And even more of us are below average. Attempting to force change won't get you anywhere, because starting a relationship with someone while pretending to be someone or something that you're not isn't going to work out.

Kopikatsu:

Owyn_Merrilin:
There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[1], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

Not aloof, exactly. Think about it; do you talk to your male friends about stuff like that, or dote on them like that? If yes, you're weird, but you aren't the demographic we're talking about here. If no, why would you do it for your female friends? That really is her boyfriend's job. Oh, don't get me wrong; you should always be there for your friend. But there's a difference between being there if she needs you, and being at her beck and call.

Edit: What I'm saying here is that Nice Guys(TM) tend to take on the duties of a boyfriend, without the girl asking for it. Said girl tends to be appreciative of the fact that they have someone around who will do all that for her, but not actually be romantically or sexually interested in him. What I was saying is Nice Guys(TM) tend to do all that stuff in the hopes that the girl will realize that he's the perfect boyfriend, when in reality all he's doing is giving her the few things that she would be interested in getting from him that you normally need a boyfriend to get. If she's not romantically interested in you, she's not romantically interested in you, and no amount of small favors (that go above and beyond what you usually give to a friend) are going to fix that.

[1] or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at

Owyn_Merrilin:

Kopikatsu:

Owyn_Merrilin:
There's one thing the article didn't mention, and it really should: the Nice Guy(TM) trait of listening to every little problem, being there for the girl, helping out with stuff, fixing her computer[1], and whatever else they wind up doing? It's basically the guy doing all of the less pleasant things expected of a boyfriend, without getting any of the pleasant benefits. These guys really need to learn that they're pretty much giving away the milk for free by doing that, and the girl isn't going to be interested in buying the cow. People who are just friends don't usually do that kind of thing. Neither should people who are "just friends" and want to be more. This is especially important, because the guys who do this are almost exclusively young and inexperienced with dating. For most of them, it takes a lot of heart break before they realize what's going on, if they ever do; a lot of them just go from unhappily single to bitterly forever alone.

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

Not aloof, exactly. Think about it; do you talk to your male friends about stuff like that, or dote on them like that? If yes, you're weird, but you aren't the demographic we're talking about here. If no, why would you do it for your female friends? That really is her boyfriend's job. Oh, don't get me wrong; you should always be there for your friend. But there's a difference between being there if she needs you, and being at her beck and call.

Well...strictly speaking, I don't actually have any friends. (Being allergic to sunlight will do that to a person) But when I did, I didn't dote on my male friends, no, but I did of listen to their problems, fix things for free, and helped them generally sort their life out when they needed it. I did those things for my female friends as well.

That was the difference, though. I was there for anyone who needed someone to be there for them, but if I was interested in someone, then I'd be at their beck and call. Certainly.

Edit: Yeah, I get that you're saying that's a bad thing (On both counts), but that's just kind of who I am. Attempting to change that by force probably won't accomplish anything meaningful.

[1] or her car, or whatever; this varies depending on what the guy is skilled at

Kopikatsu:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Kopikatsu:

See, to me that sounds a lot like 'If you're interested in a girl, don't be there for her/help her when she needs it. You have to be aloof and manipulate her into being interested in you, because if you make yourself too easy to 'get', then nobody will want you. But if you play hard to get, then you're suddenly a prize to be won.'

'Course, I can't argue with that logic (Because I'm sure that it works), but it seems really...underhanded. Since when is being upfront/honest a bad thing? Also, it implies that most/all women are completely oblivious to affection. Why does the man have to be the super assertive one? Shouldn't it be a two way street?

Edit: Gender roles are bad!

Not aloof, exactly. Think about it; do you talk to your male friends about stuff like that, or dote on them like that? If yes, you're weird, but you aren't the demographic we're talking about here. If no, why would you do it for your female friends? That really is her boyfriend's job. Oh, don't get me wrong; you should always be there for your friend. But there's a difference between being there if she needs you, and being at her beck and call.

Well...strictly speaking, I don't actually have any friends. (Being allergic to sunlight will do that to a person) But when I did, I didn't dote on my male friends, no, but I did of listen to their problems, fix things for free, and helped them generally sort their life out when they needed it. I did those things for my female friends as well.

That was the difference, though. I was there for anyone who needed someone to be there for them, but if I was interested in someone, then I'd be at their beck and call. Certainly.

Edit: Yeah, I get that you're saying that's a bad thing (On both counts), but that's just kind of who I am. Attempting to change that by force probably won't accomplish anything meaningful.

That's why it's especially painful; most Nice Guys(TM) (and far too many genuine nice guys) have to learn this the hard way, and that's assuming they ever learn it. Far too many go down the path of thinking girls want assholes, and wind up becoming bitter and, ironically, much bigger assholes than any guy the girls they wanted every dated, with a completely different breed of dickishness.

Oh, also, being there for your friends is a good trait; being a doormat is bad. Finding the fine line there is another discussion, but is also important.

Edit: Also, you have a sunlight allergy? You poor thing. That's like winning the genetic anti-lottery.

Owyn_Merrilin:
Edit: Also, you have a sunlight allergy? You poor thing. That's like winning the genetic anti-lottery.

Nah, there are people allergic to water, hemophilia is much worse, etc. It's kind of sad that the bright side is 'Think of how much more HORRIBLE your life could have been!'.

It's more of a hypersensitivity reaction than a real allergy, though. If I'm out in the sun for longer than 20-ish minutes, my skin starts to flake off. If I'm wet and in the sun for more than 20-ish minutes, I can peel my skin off in strips. (You have three layers of skin. First is dead skin cells, second is outer skin, and third is inner skin. (Totally the scientific names for them) My thing affects second layer. The more you know!)

Edit: Aaaaand I deleted the main part of this post. Wonderful.

I'm pretty sure this is some higher power saying 'GO TO SLEEP ALREADY'.

Double Post. Ignore.

I'm not a Nice Guy(tm) but I may be mistaken for one because I think both sides are wrong.

I believe that we can have "Nice Guy(tm)s are entitled little fucks who need to harden the fuck up" without having "Be confident and awesome or gtfo or at least lower your standards."

It just troubles me that women can plainly say that guys have to be a certain way to be worthy of the best but men are essentially blamed for when women have body image issues, etc.

Either both genders should be required to love unconditionally, or both genders should be freely allowed their shallowness.

And sure, I'm pretty much the stereotypical loser 'man-child' who still lives with his parents, but let's say I did become more confident, successful, and awesome, and I got more female attention. How would I know they loved me for me and not for my greatness.

Long story short: don't love me because I'm beautiful.

Hah, fun idea. Though, seriously, what's wrong with hats? :(

upgray3dd:
When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

That is usually how the Nice Guy(TM) starts, the timid guy/girl falls for their friend but is too shy to act on it, so they keep standing on the sidelines while the friend has all the fun.
Impending bitterns in 3... 2... 1... Why you no love me?!

I was there a couple of times, and the thing people need to realize is others are not responsible for your emotions, you deal with them in your own accord and take responsibility for it.
And just because a friendship works does not mean a relationship can, there is a whole bucket of different criteria.

The end split is will you be guided by bitterness or understanding.

I agree wholeheartedly with the article even though it will hardly do any good in the end for this debate(Even though the whole, GOOO SUPERNOVAHHHHH! was a tad overboard). Some guys are just going to have to suck it up when it comes to 'courting' women.

Though, lets face it, the 'Nice Guy' syndrome is an inevitable by-product of gender dynamics. There will always be nice guys if the first move is predominately something a man is suppose to do. Assholes/arrogant guys sweep up women because they practically bubble over-confidence and have no problems asking women out. Less assertive/decisive men get left in the dust due to inaction, because getting women doesn't work like that.

You could rage fruitlessly against the machine, or try and change yourself a bit. Getting into friendships with every women you're potentially interested in is way too time consuming, and pointless. Gauge interest level, ask them on a couple of walks/lunches, and go from there. Sure it sucks for us select less out-going types(who are interesting on a less surface level mind you), but the world doesn't care.

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead.

This quote probably gave me eye cancer. You know, like a supernova would.

Ah yes, nice guys vs Nice Guys (tm). Honestly, I probably would have dated a lot more in high school if any of my friends had asked me out, because they were genuinely nice, but they were too introverted to ask and I am also an introvert. On the other hand, I was damn upset when one of the guys I liked was "nice", but really just wanted to be friends with benefits.

Oh well, I've been going 5 years strong with a genuinely nice guy. We met playing Ragnarok Online and a good chunk of the playerbase hated him because of his ego, but hey, we had fun playing the game together and eventually he decided to get a job to make enough money to see me in real life. And that he did! And he's probably the most beloved person where he works, too. He's got passion. He tells great stories. And he cooks! Not only does he cook, but it tastes way better than what my parents cook and he's got the guts to try anything. His gutsiness is essential when my family is half-Chinese and I seem to have inherited all the quirky tastes from that side.

This article is spot on when it tells you it's not enough to be nice. Nice is only a starting point. My boyfriend goes way beyond nice and onwards to amazing.

Lara Crigger:
Love FAQ: Nice Guys Suck

"Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't just a song by Green Day.

Read Full Article

Thank you Lara. :) I've known a... few Nice Guys(tm) in my day. I don't know what they expected... I'm a gay woman, sooooo, yeah. Still, I'm hoping they read it and see the folly of their way. Because how they pine and grab hold of straws is really pretty sad. :( And then it's annoying.

"Love yourself first, and without restraint."

That's where things usually fall down if you ask me. All this "but I'm a nice guy" jibber jabber is just dancing around the issue. People who profile themselves as being the nice guy usually have problems with themselves (and I have problems with myself myself, don't you mistake me for poking fun here).

The nice guy finishes last complaint is an excuse, a way of validation. The people who use it are misguided. And here's where I don't agree with the statement that the nice guy(tm) is a jerk. The nice guy sentiment is a thought pattern that holds no malicious intent. A jerk, to my mind, is someone who knows what they're doing and consciously chooses to mess with you.

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