Nice Guys Suck

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT
 

I like this, this is very true. A lot of "Nice guys'" have trouble having normal relationships with female freinds. I have a LOT of female freinds and i would never consider dating... all but one of them. The problem with "Nice Guys'" is they see freindship as a means to an end, i.e. a relationship and "OMG I HAS A GIRLFRIEND WITH BOOBS!!!11!!1!". This is creepy. Really creepy. Stalker creepy.

You've 'been there' for your male freinds have you not? Then why are you not asking them out aswel? The answer is at worst you have trouble relating to women and at worst you see women as colectable dating figures and sex achivements, not people.

So 'Nice Guys', i would ask you not to take out your insecurities/ sexual frustrations on your freinds. Dissporortinate expectations in a relationship has been covered here before and its a killer.

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

No it doesn't contradict it at all.

Your personality (as in, "being yourself") is not a constant object. It's a growing entity that matures with your experiences and your interactions with the world, and it's perfectly possible to change and mold it while still being yourself.

Sure, it's not a 1 day change, and some guy who from one day goes from being a nerd who dresses badly etc. to someone who wears suits and generally try to impress people is an example of someone who is trying too hard.

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome. For the sake of example, if someone who is a a fat smoke one day decides that enough is enough and quits smoking and starts in the gym and drops 50 pounds in a couple of months, do you also consider that person to be someone who is pretending to be someone else, or do you see him as someone who matured and dealt with his personal problems with great dedication? I certainly hope it's the latter.

.

Improving and maturing your personality is not only doing yourself a favor, it's doing everyone around you who knows and interacts with you a favor. Being awesome (which, as pointed out, is something that can be learned), and making people realize that you are awesome is the greatest gift you can give to both yourself and them.

GrandmaFunk:
oddly the clarification doesn't feel any less insulting and still amounts to : girls don't want nice guys, you're better off being a jerk than being yourself.

* <--- The point

.

.

O <--- Your head.

Let me just put it out in plaintext for you: Niceness is NOT a quality that attracts. It provokes empathy at best. That's it.

The point passed so far over your head it's unbelievable, so let me tell you what she really said (but you misinterpreted). She didn't say that women don't want nice guys.

What she said however, is that being nice doesn't attract women.

That doesn't mean that you can't be a nice guy and attract women. You can. It's just that your niceness isn't your SELLING POINT. If you want to attract women, you need to focus on other qualities of your personality, but those qualities and being a nice guy isn't mutually exclusive. You can be a nice guy and still have them (and swim in women).

Athinira:

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

No it doesn't contradict it at all.

Your personality (as in, "being yourself") is not a constant object. It's a growing entity that matures with your experiences and your interactions with the world, and it's perfectly possible to change and mold it while still being yourself.

Sure, it's not a 1 day change, and some guy who from one day goes from being a nerd who dresses badly etc. to someone who wears suits and generally try to impress people is an example of someone who is trying too hard.

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome. For the sake of example, if someone who is a a fat smoke one day decides that enough is enough and quits smoking and starts in the gym and drops 50 pounds in a couple of months, do you also consider that person to be someone who is pretending to be someone else, or do you see him as someone who matured and dealt with his personal problems with great dedication? I certainly hope it's the latter.

.

Improving and maturing your personality is not only doing yourself a favor, it's doing everyone around you who knows and interacts with you a favor. Being awesome (which, as pointed out, is something that can be learned), and making people realize that you are awesome is the greatest gift you can give to both yourself and them.

I don't know...I kind of liked it when Jed Clampett said "Good Lord made us all, and if we're good enough for him, we sure ought to be good enough for each other."

Meaning, if God views us all as absolute equals, then should society not do so as well? Abandoning all this nonsense about 'status' and other ways of exalting some over others?

Listen: I'm not going to tell you I'm a nice guy, in fact, if I dislike you, and see no reason to try, I can make GlaDOS look warm and loving.

But I think the world needs more nice people. No, it's not attractive to have some socially awkward, but nice guy around who apologizes for everything and does his best (really), well, at least not in an immediate, passionate way. It's not sexually attractive thereisaidit. I guess I'm experienced, but I've been on both sides of the fence here.

I was a really, really shut out and unfriendly person in high school. I had friends, and everyone else could get infected with the zombie plague for all I cared. I was also super nice, in a really demented relationship, which I held on as hard as I could when it fell apart, even when the best thing to do was letting it go. You do insane things when you're in love, and yeah, I did retarded things for attention too (cutting).

In the end, however, I found a middle ground. Nice, yeah, but smart enough to realize how much I'm losing by doing it, and being okay with it, at least, as far as relationships go.

But, back then, I guess I was a "Nice Guy". I was desperate, like a meth addict looking to get his next fix of crystal (fuck, I've even wrote about it on school papers... with that exact analogy.) I bothered my friends when me and her got in a dispute, which, no, thank you very fucking much, I handled less maturely than I am responding to that inflammatory article (which I imagine proceeds a more inflammatory one.

That didn't mean my feelings weren't genuine. How can I prove it? I'm still pursuing this relationship with her. We've broken it off a couple years back, and it's forming back together again. I realize that I could be living 'much larger' than I am now, and yeah, this makes me sound like a pretentious douchebag ("Nice Guy"), but I'm sticking with it, with full knowledge from experience what that means (the whole it not being returned thing). Oh, but maybe my version of love is just backwards. I can define it. You can take from it what you want, maybe it is.

Love is not just seeing yourself in the longterm with someone, but, for me, when you're willing to give it all in a relationship, when you say something to her, nomatter what it is, you fucking mean it. It's staying up when you know you have very important shit to do the next day, because she needs someone. It's when you stop looking down on that person as a companion, and looking at her as your goddamn teammate through life.

I've written alot already, and I'm starting to stray from the point, so I'll wrap this up. Stay seated, it'll be a few more paragraphs.

If you're a nice guy, and you're truly nice (give gas to a stranger stranded alongside the freeway nice), keep being the way you are. Alot of people have good intentions, even sadists do in harder to grasp ways, but not alot of people can act on them and stick to them when it gets in the way of comfort.

There may be some girls out there who don't want you unless you show a detached, and probably douchey set of behaviors, but doing so to make them interested would be fucking pretentious. That's probably alittle extreme, but if the girl you're with likes that, you need to find another girl, or hope you two get along in every other aspect. Regardless, as long as you aren't close-minded, you will find someone.

No, nobody's perfect. Nice doesn't equal perfect. You're going to have your flaws, and yeah, they can make or break a relationship, but those traits sure as fuck don't define you.

The summation of all your traits define you, and what it comes down to, nice guy or not, is your added totals, your complicated personal spec-sheet that takes years for a potential lifelong teammate to read over. If she (or he, for that matter), likes what she sees, and you like what you see (which you likely will, you're nice ffs, an open minded nice guy who probably believes in Disney love still because it's the love you feel), then you two may very well end up living in matrimony.

The best you can do is get familiar with yourself if you're not in a relationship, and get familiar with both yourself and your partner if you are. Don't look at things as good or bad, just look at them as traits. And preferences, but mainly your own, because you shouldn't focus on changing yourself for someone (but should change a bit... you know, compromise and all).

Like me. I really can't stand stupid people who think they're less stupid than they are (but stupid people who know they're stupid are okay.

Agreed on 100% of everything you said, killer article. Wish I'd had someone spell this out for me years ago instead of having to figure it out the hard way.

Nickolai77:

Last paragraph was also interesting, should we be moaning about being introverted guys then instead? However, what happens when this goes too far and we make another distinction between introverted guys and Introverted Guys (TM)?

Introversion versus extroversion is simply a matter of preference for your partner. People find each other attractive for a myriad of reasons, and a lot of them can be improved and built upon. You're not condemned to a life of "nobody will ever love me for who I am", because you can improve yourself and make a buttload of changes to yourself and your life that will directly benefit you, and in turn, make you that much more desirable. Born fat? Hit the gym. You're still you, but you're healthier, more confident, and easier on the eyes. Born quiet? Conversation is a skill like any other, so you've got to take it upon yourself to suffer the initial awkwardness and practice your communication skills until it comes to you naturally. Whether or not you're talkative isn't a part of your essence, it's behavior, and can be modified through effort.

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

You absolutely should be yourself, but it's also your job to be someone worthwhile if you want anyone to give a rat's ass when you do.

You know how most of us were told we could be anything we wanted when we grew up? I feel like that got dismissed as naive optimism for all the wrong reasons. When I heard that, I used to think "yeah, well, I'm not exactly astronaut material, so I guess you're wrong", but it's actually quite true, because your life and even your personality are as malleable to your decisions as a career. Believing otherwise is the trap that Nice Guys(TM) fall into because they think that who they are as a person at that very moment is all they'll ever have to work with, so they feel threatened and insecure because there are statistically guaranteed to be so many better people out there; so, they try to make up the difference by playing mind games, instead of taking the initiative to catch up with everyone else by improving themselves and not only making themselves more attractive, but also making their lives that much better because of it (which is the best reason to do anything).

When you meet someone you knew a long time ago, and they're more mature, would you consider them to be artificial versions of themselves? Of course not, because it's easy to see that they own the changes they made; maturity is just a shaky example, however, as this can be done with anything, so long as you're choosing to do it because you want it for yourself. You may not be born a supernova, but my friend, you can sure as hell become one.

"Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead."

:'D By the gods, yes! This is so inspiring!

SODAssault:
Agreed on 100% of everything you said, killer article. Wish I'd had someone spell this out for me years ago instead of having to figure it out the hard way.

Nickolai77:

Last paragraph was also interesting, should we be moaning about being introverted guys then instead? However, what happens when this goes too far and we make another distinction between introverted guys and Introverted Guys (TM)?

Introversion versus extroversion is simply a matter of preference for your partner. People find each other attractive for a myriad of reasons, and a lot of them can be improved and built upon. You're not condemned to a life of "nobody will ever love me for who I am", because you can improve yourself and make a buttload of changes to yourself and your life that will directly benefit you, and in turn, make you that much more desirable. Born fat? Hit the gym. You're still you, but you're healthier, more confident, and easier on the eyes. Born quiet? Conversation is a skill like any other, so you've got to take it upon yourself to suffer the initial awkwardness and practice your communication skills until it comes to you naturally. Whether or not you're talkative isn't a part of your essence, it's behavior, and can be modified through effort.

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

You absolutely should be yourself, but it's also your job to be someone worthwhile if you want anyone to give a rat's ass when you do.

You know how most of us were told we could be anything we wanted when we grew up? I feel like that got dismissed as naive optimism for all the wrong reasons. When I heard that, I used to think "yeah, well, I'm not exactly astronaut material, so I guess you're wrong", but it's actually quite true, because your life and even your personality are as malleable to your decisions as a career. Believing otherwise is the trap that Nice Guys(TM) fall into because they think that who they are as a person at that very moment is all they'll ever have to work with, so they feel threatened and insecure because there are statistically guaranteed to be so many better people out there; so, they try to make up the difference by playing mind games, instead of taking the initiative to catch up with everyone else by improving themselves and not only making themselves more attractive, but also making their lives that much better because of it (which is the best reason to do anything).

When you meet someone you knew a long time ago, and they're more mature, would you consider them to be artificial versions of themselves? Of course not, because it's easy to see that they own the changes they made; maturity is just a shaky example, however, as this can be done with anything, so long as you're choosing to do it because you want it for yourself. You may not be born a supernova, but my friend, you can sure as hell become one.

So, is this how to follow the author's exhortation, that 'love only comes to those who earn it?'

Well, perhaps it would be good to teach this in schools at an early age. Let them know from the very beginning that there is much they need to do to ever earn love. Just existing isn't enough, and heaven forbid, being a decent human being, you should be doing that anyway, don't get greedy.

It would take some doing, after all there might be some holdouts who get lied to by their parents and other authority figures about some nonsense called 'unconditional love,' but stick to your guns and they'll come around.

Perhaps when they graduate, they could take a final test, to see if they have taken the lessons to heart, and obeyed them accordingly. They could be given some kind of certificate to signify that they have been measured and found worthy. Or better still, some kind other identifier, like a badge on their shirt or something.

Sounds like the ultimate solution to the problem for me.

Cephei Mordred:
I don't know...I kind of liked it when Jed Clampett said "Good Lord made us all, and if we're good enough for him, we sure ought to be good enough for each other."

Meaning, if God views us all as absolute equals, then should society not do so as well? Abandoning all this nonsense about 'status' and other ways of exalting some over others?

I don't believe in god, and i certainly don't believe in that statement.

As humans, we need to provide value to the world around us for it to appreciate us, and if you as a person fail to provide value to the people around you (or society as a whole), simply saying "This is how god made me" is just a sad excuse for not doing better, and people WILL dislike you for it (similar to how people who abuse society for their own personal benefit isn't looked well upon).

In my eyes, it's just another ridiculous religious attempt to excuse themself because they didn't do things properly in the first place. If you want people to appreciate you, you need to give them something of value in their lives (and I'm not talking about money, although for 3 people that certainly can be a factor), as in you have to WORK for it. It can be anything: Waking emotions in them (like being able to turn them on, which is often how relationships are starting), making them laugh and enjoy themself around you, there are so many ways to do it. But sitting on your ass and claiming that you are good enough "out of the box" certainly isn't the answer, because not everything is great when unpacked.

Of course if you believe otherwise, then feel free to sit on your ass. I'm just warning you that you'll be the one losing out in the end. Creating value requires an investment, and people not willing to invest is never going to gain.

DVS BSTrD:
So THAT's what I've been doing wrong all these years. Excuse me...
*Runs off to the store to buy a bad hat*

I don't think turning into Yahtzee will help you out much... lol.

I think what I really hear the author saying is that girls don't want passive aggressive types who essentially do things to manipulate the girl. It's nice to read because I think every guy goes through a Nice Guy (TM) phase before figuring out how to be a nice guy.

I know I've CERTAINLY been a Nice Guy (TM) with my gf in the past. She's an award winning dancer who wanted to be on So You Think You Can Dance/Canada's Got Talent and I had an emotional breakdown. Why? Because she's honestly so good I knew she'd go far in the competition, and the idea of losing her to it or it becoming problematic for our relationship scared the living daylights out of me. I told her a resounding no. We argued, I freaked out some more, blah blah blah... turned out to be completely useless though because it logistically fell apart.

My gf and I also have a mutual veto policy, where if one of us "veto's" another's desire or decision, that's that. The ACTUAL, practical purpose of this is for the later stages of a relationship; primarily marriage. For example, if I wanted a new, $2000 desktop, but she sat there and thought, "You don't NEED a new one and we could use $2000 for so many other things, so I'm saying no." It's basically saying that if we're not in complete agreement with a major decision, we won't go through with it.

But I myself have found myself using this powerful veto power too extensively. My gf REALLY want tattoos. I personally HATE tat's... won't judge you if you have them, but I think they're gross. So I told my gf no - not just no, but told her don't even think about one, OR ELSE!

Now I'm regretting that specifically for some of the reasons listed in this forum. I personally believe that a relationship's not JUST about supporting your significant others personal desires, and that there's a lot of self-sacrifice that occurs too, but there's a difference between self-sacrifice and being completely overbearing.

When I say I'm learning, I mean I'm making changes. So for her birthday, I'm going to leave a little note in the card that says, "You can get a tattoo if you want to ;)"

And I SINCERELY believe that if given another situation where she wanted to go on some major dance show/competition, I'd be ecstatic instead of depressed.

So I would say there's hope for Nice Guys... sometimes we just need to work out our issues before we can evolve into the nice guys we've always wanted to be.

Athinira:

Cephei Mordred:
I don't know...I kind of liked it when Jed Clampett said "Good Lord made us all, and if we're good enough for him, we sure ought to be good enough for each other."

Meaning, if God views us all as absolute equals, then should society not do so as well? Abandoning all this nonsense about 'status' and other ways of exalting some over others?

I don't believe in god, and i certainly don't believe in that statement.

As humans, we need to provide value to the world around us for it to appreciate us, and if you as a person fail to provide value to the people around you (or society as a whole), simply saying "This is how god made me" is just a sad excuse for not doing better, and people WILL dislike you for it (similar to how people who abuse society for their own personal benefit isn't looked well upon).

In my eyes, it's just another ridiculous religious attempt to excuse themself because they didn't do things properly in the first place. If you want people to appreciate you, you need to give them something of value in their lives (and I'm not talking about money, although for 3 people that certainly can be a factor), as in you have to WORK for it. It can be anything: Waking emotions in them (like being able to turn them on, which is often how relationships are starting), making them laugh and enjoy themself around you, there are so many ways to do it. But sitting on your ass and claiming that you are good enough "out of the box" certainly isn't the answer, because not everything is great when unpacked.

Of course if you believe otherwise, then feel free to sit on your ass. I'm just warning you that you'll be the one losing out in the end. Creating value requires an investment, and people not willing to invest is never going to gain.

Ignoring the clear tone of "be alpha or gtfo" for a moment...

This seems to go in contradiction to your earlier statement of:

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome.

"Providing value for others" sounds a lot like a mandate to please others to me. Heck, all this talk of 'value' pretty much sets the stage for a moral mandate to be subject to the judgements of all others, at the expense of ones own self judgement of value.

Cephei Mordred:
Ignoring the clear tone of "be alpha or gtfo" for a moment...

This seems to go in contradiction to your earlier statement of:

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome.

"Providing value for others" sounds a lot like a mandate to please others to me. Heck, all this talk of 'value' pretty much sets the stage for a moral mandate to be subject to the judgement of all others, at the expense of ones own self judgement of value.

There is nothing "be alpha" about it. Most people who know me consider me an awesome person, and I'm not an alpha type at all. Being awesome is in no way associated with being an alpha male or being a pack leader :o)

As for your point, the reason I'm talking about providing value for others is because this thread is essentially about the mating game, and if you can't provide 'value' to the opposite sex (or same sex if you're gay), then you obviously aren't going to get laid.

Beyond that, most people want to be awesome not to please others, but because it pleases them self mentally.
Why do you think those big guys who work out at the Gym with big muscles like admiring themselves in the mirror? Because they like their awesome muscles. Same reason girls pose in front of the mirror in their new clothes and photograph it.
Why do you think people like to brag about their accomplishments (like a Facebook status with someone saying they just ran 4 minutes in 30 minutes, and then being totally proud of them self)? Because bragging boosts their ego.

Ultimately the goal of being "awesome" for most people is about pleasing themselves, not pleasing others. That's why i recommend that if you want to make your life better, then do it for your OWN sake, not for others. Providing value to others is just a side bonus that makes them like you (which in turn also boosts your ego, as in, it grants you a selfish pleasure, and will eventually enable you to find people to spend your life with, be it friends or a wife/husband), but it's not a priority over YOU being happy with YOURSELF.

Wanting to attain social status is ultimately a selfish goal, but it relies on providing other people with value in their lives. If you want to ignore (or don't care) about your social status, then all the more power to you, but don't expect other people to care about you then.

And so Lara, what happens to all those men whose only real selling point is that they are "nice"?

Paragon Fury:
And so Lara, what happens to all those men whose only real selling point is that they are "nice"?

If a person has *no* selling point besides they are nice? They have no hobbies, no interests, no conversational skills, no smarts, no brawn, no skills, no style, no nothing? They won't be very successful in getting dates.

Why? Because who wants to date a lump? Nobody.

And often, a person who says, "I have no selling point but I'm nice" -- is also saying "my niceness is a component of insecurity and codependency"--which makes the niceness not actually nice but a symptom of unhealthiness. Most people don't want to date a servant with self-esteem issues. And those few people who do? Are also messed up people who will abuse that Nice Person.

So, if you think of yourself as a person who has no real selling point besides being nice? I recommend:
1) therapy to work through self-esteem issues.
2) begin a process of self improvement and growth, not for other people but for yourself.

At the end of the process you should have other selling points besides being "nice"
Having other selling points will help your self-esteem.
Having self esteem makes you less likely to be targeted by messed up people and more likely to get into a good relationship.
Healthy people will find you attractive if you have self-esteem and have points of interest.

So work on that. You don't have to be alpha or extroverted. But you have to have self-esteem and have interests. Having interests make you interesting, being interesting makes people want to be around you.

When all of that is done, then if you see someone you are interested in, Ask them Out for coffee. If you don't ask, you won't get a "sure." It is possible that some person may ask you out instead...but not if you are uninteresting with no self-esteem.

Lara, you hit the nail on the head. I've figured this out through my own experiences, and anyone who is over the age of 15 who still legitimately complains about how "jerks" get all the girls, and they get none because they're "nice" need to grow some fucking testicles, and admit that they might be the ones with problem.

Women are not possessions or prizes that you can woo/grind up to to give up "loot" so to speak. They're people. We get that you're scared. We (men) all are to some degree. They're hard to understand sometimes, and rejection sucks. But who cares? Honestly, the worst that can happen from asking them out is being right back where you were if you hadn't. Can't win if you don't enter.

Oh, and can we stop with the whole "I need to get to know them before I date them". That's what dating is fucking for. You go on dates to interact with and learn more about the person. Stop beating around the bush and just go on a fucking date. If it doesn't work, just admit that, and move on. It doesn't have to be as delicate or awkward as you're making it in your head.

One thing I have learned throughout my now almost finished high school tenure is this: Women don't care if your nice. They will appreciate it, but they really only care if your 1) confident, 2) interesting, and 3) funny.

With these three simple traits, you too can be attractive to the opposite sex.

I agree. Nice guys suck. I know, I use to be one. At least until all the rejection and being used made be bitter enough not to care anymore. As soon as I started ignoring and rejecting them I had women lining up.

I'm not sure if being a "nice guy" marks you as a pussy, easy target, or just something to be used up and thrown away or if people just want what they can't have and putting yourself out of reach makes them want you. But I'm a lot happier now that I act like an internet troll. On a side note, got a fiancee of three years now.

Like I always say: If you think "women don't like nice guys," that's a fairly good sign that you are not a nice guy.

And if you think "women don't like Nice Guys™," that's a fairly good sign that you are not a Nice Guy™.

Awesome article. I used to be (and probably still am, somewhat) a Nice Guy™. That was basically the extent of my high school/early college "dating scene" if you can call being a sad bastard that.

At least, until I realized that the only times when I actually *had* dates/girlfriends was when I grew a pair and just asked someone out. It's almost like the two are connected...

Not a huge fan of this article, or this writer. I'm a nice guy by nature. Always have been. And to me, that doesn't mean I'm a doormat, uninteresting, or have secondary motives. It just means I'm a guy who is nice. It didn't get me many dates, because women around me were bloody suspicious of me all the time, thinking I had ulterior motives. Turns out I was just attempting not to be an asshole. I think Lara and I have two VASTLY differing opinions on what a nice guy is.

Additionally, the statement "Nice guys finish last" is entirely dependent on your definition of "finish."

(Incidentally, my current girlfriend has told me that one of the reasons she began dating me is because I was "just so honest about it.")

I know this isn't really the central theme of the article but I get the impression that these Nice Guys are looked upon as some kind of menace?!?!...

As someone who survived a violent long term relationship I laugh heartily at the thought of women hating on men who are being nice to them.

Oh dear what a horrible thing for you to put up with Princess it must be so terrible being bought gifts and being treated like a goddess.

This is a problem is it? Riiiiight. Excuse me while I go over here and laugh manically and possibly cry a bit.

Athinira:

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

No it doesn't contradict it at all.

Your personality (as in, "being yourself") is not a constant object. It's a growing entity that matures with your experiences and your interactions with the world, and it's perfectly possible to change and mold it while still being yourself.

Sure, it's not a 1 day change, and some guy who from one day goes from being a nerd who dresses badly etc. to someone who wears suits and generally try to impress people is an example of someone who is trying too hard.

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome. For the sake of example, if someone who is a a fat smoke one day decides that enough is enough and quits smoking and starts in the gym and drops 50 pounds in a couple of months, do you also consider that person to be someone who is pretending to be someone else, or do you see him as someone who matured and dealt with his personal problems with great dedication? I certainly hope it's the latter.

.

Improving and maturing your personality is not only doing yourself a favor, it's doing everyone around you who knows and interacts with you a favor. Being awesome (which, as pointed out, is something that can be learned), and making people realize that you are awesome is the greatest gift you can give to both yourself and them.

I'm starting to think i've given the wrong impression of myself from my first post. Yes, i regard myself as an introvert, but that doesn't mean i'm not communicative- heck i can be when i need to be- i work as a university tour guide for instance.

I'm just a little mythed by what Lara and yourself mean when you describe "being awesome" or being a "supernova", it sounds rather vague. Does it mean playing guitar on stage or being the one guy's who does something so ridiculous on a night out people are talking about it for years after? I don't play an instrument and personally i don't like making a scene on a night-out- i'd rather just rather be myself and relax with my friends.

Does it mean having lots of different hobbies and interests? I already have many hobbies and interests. I'm becoming a bit of a film buff, I love my heavy metal, appreciate anime, practise archery and video games, follow all the internet viral videos, and i'm passionate about comedy, history and international affairs. Now, many of those listed interests arn't exactly interests i would not trumpet in a job interview, but these are things i genuinely like and i'm not going to change them for something more socially acceptable. I am interested in things for my own sake, not societies.

Does it mean leaving an impression on other people? Well...i do leave impressions on other people- mostly positive hopefully, i've got different circles of friends, many many acquaintances from university. I mean, i'm not exactly the super-nova of a party- quite simply because i don't have the verbal charisma as some other people do. And, from experience, supernova's burn people- I've met some very verbally charismatic guys, and i know people who can't stand living with them- I wouldn't want to be such a person. Then of course your saying well find the mid-point, be a star and don't burn people, but my point is that i already do that. I have plenty of friends, both at home, at university and at other universities. My social calender's usually pretty full during the holidays,and socially at university i do fine as well. I'm not exactly a huge socialite, but i'm no loner either.

SODAssault:

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

You absolutely should be yourself, but it's also your job to be someone worthwhile if you want anyone to give a rat's ass when you do.

I already do stuff worthwhile- as already mentioned tour guiding, but also i'm features editor for the university newspaper, i'm volunteering to work with 6th formers to gain teaching experience, and when i can i help out at a local youth club. I've also applied to work as an assistant language teacher in Japan- and failing that i'll take a TEFL course and go teach English abroad anyway for a couple of years.

I don't completely know what i want to do as a career, i'm leaning towards teaching but my options are open. But as i've said, i do have hobbies, interests and activities. Being told that i have to be a supernova just seems like plain overkill- because i already do interesting stuff.

So, in the end i'm just left feeling a bit frustrated by this thread. I mean, yes i'm a nice guy (not TM nice guy)- i don't expect girls to find me attractive by me being nice to them, i learnt that the hard way in the past- but thus far nothing i've heard has been off much help!

(Admittedly of course a big reason for this is that my personal problems in a field are not exclusive to being a nice guy, so don't feel offended by such remarks!)

Nickolai77:

Athinira:

Nickolai77:
Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

No it doesn't contradict it at all.

Your personality (as in, "being yourself") is not a constant object. It's a growing entity that matures with your experiences and your interactions with the world, and it's perfectly possible to change and mold it while still being yourself.

Sure, it's not a 1 day change, and some guy who from one day goes from being a nerd who dresses badly etc. to someone who wears suits and generally try to impress people is an example of someone who is trying too hard.

But there is nothing wrong with changing your personality, not to accommodate what (you think) will please others, but because of a genuine desire for yourself to become something better and more awesome. For the sake of example, if someone who is a a fat smoke one day decides that enough is enough and quits smoking and starts in the gym and drops 50 pounds in a couple of months, do you also consider that person to be someone who is pretending to be someone else, or do you see him as someone who matured and dealt with his personal problems with great dedication? I certainly hope it's the latter.

.

Improving and maturing your personality is not only doing yourself a favor, it's doing everyone around you who knows and interacts with you a favor. Being awesome (which, as pointed out, is something that can be learned), and making people realize that you are awesome is the greatest gift you can give to both yourself and them.

I'm starting to think i've given the wrong impression of myself from my first post. Yes, i regard myself as an introvert, but that doesn't mean i'm not communicative- heck i can be when i need to be- i work as a university tour guide for instance.

I'm just a little mythed by what Lara and yourself mean when you describe "being awesome" or being a "supernova", it sounds rather vague. Does it mean playing guitar on stage or being the one guy's who does something so ridiculous on a night out people are talking about it for years after? I don't play an instrument and personally i don't like making a scene on a night-out- i'd rather just rather be myself and relax with my friends.

Does it mean having lots of different hobbies and interests? I already have many hobbies and interests. I'm becoming a bit of a film buff, I love my heavy metal, appreciate anime, practise archery and video games, follow all the internet viral videos, and i'm passionate about comedy, history and international affairs. Now, many of those listed interests arn't exactly interests i would not trumpet in a job interview, but these are things i genuinely like and i'm not going to change them for something more socially acceptable. I am interested in things for my own sake, not societies.

Does it mean leaving an impression on other people? Well...i do leave impressions on other people- mostly positive hopefully, i've got different circles of friends, many many acquaintances from university. I mean, i'm not exactly the super-nova of a party- quite simply because i don't have the verbal charisma as some other people do. And, from experience, supernova's burn people- I've met some very verbally charismatic guys, and i know people who can't stand living with them- I wouldn't want to be such a person. Then of course your saying well find the mid-point, be a star and don't burn people, but my point is that i already do that. I have plenty of friends, both at home, at university and at other universities. My social calender's usually pretty full during the holidays,and socially at university i do fine as well. I'm not exactly a huge socialite, but i'm no loner either.

SODAssault:

Another issue is that being a "supernova" can contradict another common piece of dating advise- "Be yourself"- what if your the kind of guy who doesn't get behind the mike and wear a silly hat? Do you be yourself or sacrifice who you are for the sake of finding someone?

You absolutely should be yourself, but it's also your job to be someone worthwhile if you want anyone to give a rat's ass when you do.

I already do stuff worthwhile- as already mentioned tour guiding, but also i'm features editor for the university newspaper, i'm volunteering to work with 6th formers to gain teaching experience, and when i can i help out at a local youth club. I've also applied to work as an assistant language teacher in Japan- and failing that i'll take a TEFL course and go teach English abroad anyway for a couple of years.

I don't completely know what i want to do as a career, i'm leaning towards teaching but my options are open. But as i've said, i do have hobbies, interests and activities. Being told that i have to be a supernova just seems like plain overkill- because i already do interesting stuff.

So, in the end i'm just left feeling a bit frustrated by this thread. I mean, yes i'm a nice guy (not TM nice guy)- i don't expect girls to find me attractive by me being nice to them, i learnt that the hard way in the past- but thus far nothing i've heard has been off much help!

(Admittedly of course a big reason for this is that my personal problems in a field are not exclusive to being a nice guy, so don't feel offended by such remarks!)

You have these interests. That's what you should be trying to get across to someone, not just that you're nice. Talk about movies, play video games, talk about the university newspaper. Don't try to be some generic blank slate. The point, I think, is to not have "he's nice" be the ONLY thing about you that gets across. It should be one thing, definitely, but try and get across more than that.

xXxJessicaxXx:
I know this isn't really the central theme of the article but I get the impression that these Nice Guys are looked upon as some kind of menace?!?!...

As someone who survived a violent long term relationship I laugh heartily at the thought of women hating on men who are being nice to them.

Oh dear what a horrible thing for you to put up with Princess it must be so terrible being bought gifts and being treated like a goddess.

This is a problem is it? Riiiiight. Excuse me while I go over here and laugh manically and possibly cry a bit.

Being put on a pedestal is not a fun experience. If a guy treats you like a goddess it's because he wants something from you, whether that's sex, self-esteem, prestige, or whatever else. You're always worrying if you're doing enough to "pay him back" for all the time and attention he spends on you. And if you ever fall off that pedestal, you're worse than trash in his eyes. I've had this experience numerous times, to the point that it's made me almost want to give up on relationships entirely. Almost.

Being treated like a partner is infinitely better than being treated like a goddess.

EmperorSubcutaneous:

xXxJessicaxXx:
I know this isn't really the central theme of the article but I get the impression that these Nice Guys are looked upon as some kind of menace?!?!...

As someone who survived a violent long term relationship I laugh heartily at the thought of women hating on men who are being nice to them.

Oh dear what a horrible thing for you to put up with Princess it must be so terrible being bought gifts and being treated like a goddess.

This is a problem is it? Riiiiight. Excuse me while I go over here and laugh manically and possibly cry a bit.

Being put on a pedestal is not a fun experience. If a guy treats you like a goddess it's because he wants something from you, whether that's sex, self-esteem, prestige, or whatever else. You're always worrying if you're doing enough to "pay him back" for all the time and attention he spends on you. And if you ever fall off that pedestal, you're worse than trash in his eyes. I've had this experience numerous times, to the point that it's made me almost want to give up on relationships entirely. Almost.

Being treated like a partner is infinitely better than being treated like a goddess.

How is being treated nicely a problem exactly?

Would you prefer the alternative?. It just seems like women who complain about men being nice to them don't know how lucky they are. It makes me laugh.

With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

EmperorSubcutaneous:

xXxJessicaxXx:
I know this isn't really the central theme of the article but I get the impression that these Nice Guys are looked upon as some kind of menace?!?!...

As someone who survived a violent long term relationship I laugh heartily at the thought of women hating on men who are being nice to them.

Oh dear what a horrible thing for you to put up with Princess it must be so terrible being bought gifts and being treated like a goddess.

This is a problem is it? Riiiiight. Excuse me while I go over here and laugh manically and possibly cry a bit.

Being put on a pedestal is not a fun experience. If a guy treats you like a goddess it's because he wants something from you, whether that's sex, self-esteem, prestige, or whatever else. You're always worrying if you're doing enough to "pay him back" for all the time and attention he spends on you. And if you ever fall off that pedestal, you're worse than trash in his eyes. I've had this experience numerous times, to the point that it's made me almost want to give up on relationships entirely. Almost.

Being treated like a partner is infinitely better than being treated like a goddess.

Isn't that how the song goes?:

Nickolai77:
I'm just a little mythed by what Lara and yourself mean when you describe "being awesome" or being a "supernova", it sounds rather vague. Does it mean playing guitar on stage or being the one guy's who does something so ridiculous on a night out people are talking about it for years after? I don't play an instrument and personally i don't like making a scene on a night-out- i'd rather just rather be myself and relax with my friends.

At the end of the day, you don't need to be any more "Supernova" than you want to be yourself.

Noone here is expecting anything of you, and it's your decision how to live your life and put up goals in it. All we are pointing out is that to reach a goal, you have to work for it. Wanna be a professional soccer player? Train hard. Want a job as a CEO for a big company? Study hard, collect experience, make contacts and be intelligent. Want a lot of success with women? Be a supernova.

If you are just satisfied with hanging out with your friends though, then we aren't going to tell you not to or that it's wrong :o)

But to answer your question: Being awesome, supernova or whatever you wanna call it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with doing a lot of crazy things. There are many ways to have an awesome personality. Some men are stylish laid-back gentlemen with good social etiquette. Some men are daring cocky playboys (or badboys) with a great sense of humor and a dominating approach. Some men are simply wacked in a funny way (Laras description) that attracts attention. Some men have great body and social language, making them interesting in general. Some men have are cool authority figures who has an aura that demands respect wherever they go. Some men are a great sport who excels at mixing things up and creating excitement in their general area. These are just a few examples of a great many ways to be awesome.

You talk a lot about what you do or like in your daily life, but these doesn't have anything to do with being awesome and are, most of the time, more or less irrelevant. Appreciating anime, for example, isn't going to do you any good in a conversation at a party. Being awesome is about your personality and how you present it, it's not about what you do in your life (which is of little interest to anyone until they wanna start dating you).

Edit: Wanted to throw in that even though your life are of little interest to people, that doesn't mean you can't talk about the different subjects that interests you. Example: Telling someone that you like anime is unlikely to make them care, but throwing a clever reference to a well-known anime in a conversation or discussing the subject if it pops up is a great way to present yourself as verbally intelligent. Just don't overly argue. That's uncool and one of the fastest ways to turn a woman off!

After going to sleep, waking up and finishing my coding for this weekend I took the time to think more about this article and why it seems to have have caught a lot of attention and debate between people in this thread and to me it seems to be that this article is clearly lacking in the male perspective, the 'Nice Guy' is being looked at from a female perspective. It seems most clear to me when young men are told "Don't just be nice" but why prey tell is there not a paragraph devoted to young women telling them "Well he may just be nice and you may not share much in common but goddamn a person who truly is kind and considerate is a rare thing and you should at least try to find some common ground."?

Here's the thing really when relationships seem the most important to us (i.e. Puberty) we are really at the worst stage to actually enter into them, we are being subjected to MASSIVE physical, mental and emotional changes at all times and it's also the time in which we try and find out who we are as people. I'm sure we can all look back on ourselves at 12 and wonder about all the changes that have taken place. So trying to settle on a person is like trying to hit a bulls eye 120 miles away while it is moving at the speed of sound.

If I could give advice to both sexes it would be the following:

Guys: A girl being nice to you does not equal an attraction, I know it's nearly impossible to tell but usually it doesn't. It's hard to ask someone out but just do it, in a few years you'd rather look back at a rejection that took five minutes than the months you spent pining and fantasising over a relationship that just wasn't going to happen.

Most Importantly (Well I think it's most important), never change yourself for anyone but especially a women, never be afraid to argue or fight over what you choose to follow or believe in because if you do change yourself even if it ends in a relationship you won't be happy anyway.

Girls: I know how hard it is to tell a male friend who is attracted to you that it is not mutual but for the love of god grow a damn spine and do it, our society creates a gender dynamic in which the men have to do most of the work in pursuing a relationship (Of course there are examples of the opposite but I'm talking about the majority of the time) and this is really one of the only hard things that has to be done. Also while I'm on this note let me make something incredibly clear (So clear I will put some of it in caps, apologies for this btw)

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO. When it comes from men they seem to be binary, when they ask you out they are either expecting a 1 or a 0, yes or no. When you say something like 'Well I'd rather we just stay friends' you may believe that you are saying no but to a man you're saying maybe which is just as good as saying yes. Actually the best example of that is a 'How I met your mother' episode which for the life of me I cannot remember right now.

N.B. The following is all based on my own experience with both genders and yours may differ completely which would make this entire post kind of moot.

"Social anxiety issues" sounds like a pretty good representation of my issues. However, they're more of an obsession with how to get the best out of things. For example, a young woman I was interested in wanted to suggest a movie to the school's Cinematic Arts Commission/Club, and I introduced her and her suggestion to the group.

By the way, she wasn't very interested in me, as she was a more "friends first" person and usually does not really want to spend time with me.

It honestly depends on the girl. Some girls genuinely are more attracted to nice guys. Lets see the guy I'm currently crazy for(despite the damn distance) is a nice guy. Yeah he can be an ass at times and I can be a bitch at times. Its who we are. But generally he doesn't hide who and what he is..from me at least....probably because I can see through the act really easily. Going from dating a Nice Guy(TM) and a nice guy I know the difference and can tell you I prefer the nice guy. I hate the guys who are dicks in general and not nice at all. And I hate the stereotype of girls love bad boys. No we don't. The girls who do are the girls who like making excuses for their men and like being subjugated by their men. I don't understand those girls. Though she does have a point. I know a lot of nice guys are too afraid to do some things. Break out of that shell from time to time and try something new. Who knows? Maybe you'll like it. Maybe not. But you'll have that experience good or bad and if someone asks if you've ever done it you can tell them and tell them why you did or didn't like it.

Spirit356:

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO.

What about doing that in telling him No? Cause I like to think I save my guy friends feelings and a lot of time by outright telling them that I like them as a friend and no more than that when they ask me out.

Another thing: Men: WHEN A GIRL SAYS SHE IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOU IN PLAIN TERMS SHE IS NOT TRYING TO SUBTLY TELL YOU TO KEEP IT UP. SHE MEANS NO. DON'T PUSH IT. WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

xXxJessicaxXx:
How is being treated nicely a problem exactly?

Would you prefer the alternative?. It just seems like women who complain about men being nice to them don't know how lucky they are. It makes me laugh.

What is "the alternative" exactly? There are dozens of different kinds of relationships. Of course the extreme ends of the spectrum will be bad; it's not as black and white as that.

Anyway, that's not what I said in my post. Being treated nicely isn't a problem. Being obsessed over is. If he's constantly tripping over himself to do nice things for you, then there is something wrong with the relationship.

Here's how it was in one of my relationships with a "nice guy": he wouldn't let me order for myself in restaurants, he always ordered for me. He shouldered people out of the way so he could open doors for me. He would carry me around the apartment when I could have walked perfectly fine on my own. He would buy me a gift every week. If I mentioned I liked white Christmas lights, he would decorate his entire apartment with them. He called me "goddess" and "princess" and "my lady" and all that nonsense, and he had decided within a week of getting together with me that I was perfect and we would be together forever.

And if I ever showed the slightest hint of not being completely 100% appreciative of what he did, he would spend days sulking over it.

And of course he had been mentally keeping track of everything the whole time. When we inevitably broke up, he brought up every nice thing he did for me as if he deserved continued repayment for it all, as if the fact that he had done all those things for me meant that he had somehow purchased me for life.

Sure it feels nice to be treated well, but not to that extent. And definitely not for any longer than a few months. After that point, the cracks always begin to show.

Additionally, being called "perfect" when you clearly aren't (because no human is) leads to anxiety. What happens when he realizes I'm not perfect? Will he leave me? If he's one of those "nice guys," then yes. Actually he won't leave you, he'll continue clinging to you, but he'll start passive-aggressively hating you.

This is what being treated like a goddess is like. It is not normal and it is not healthy. Being treated like an equal, a partner, and a companion is what you should be looking for.

I just saw your edit.

xXxJessicaxXx:
With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

Oh, come on. That's like saying that people who aren't living in a third world country have no right to be depressed. Just because some unhealthy relationships are more unhealthy than other unhealthy relationships doesn't mean the people who are in them should be perfectly content because "it could be worse."

EmperorSubcutaneous:
I just saw your edit.

xXxJessicaxXx:
With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

Oh, come on. That's like saying that people who aren't living in a third world country have no right to be depressed. Just because some unhealthy relationships are more unhealthy than other unhealthy relationships doesn't mean the people who are in them should be perfectly content because "it could be worse."

It's not even negative though...He is lavishing praise and presents on you and that upsets you? I'm not even talking about someone being in a relationship. I'm talking about people complaining about these Nice Guys who try to pursue one with them and then acting like they are the scum of the earth for being pleasant.

Are we living in backwards land now?

If I was a relationship with the guy you describe I would count myself lucky I had someone who cared about me tbh. It's better than men treating you like dirt.

aprilmarie:

Spirit356:

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO.

What about doing that in telling him No? Cause I like to think I save my guy friends feelings and a lot of time by outright telling them that I like them as a friend and no more than that when they ask me out.

Another thing: Men: WHEN A GIRL SAYS SHE IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOU IN PLAIN TERMS SHE IS NOT TRYING TO SUBTLY TELL YOU TO KEEP IT UP. SHE MEANS NO. DON'T PUSH IT. WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

Well the thing is rejecting someone no matter what you do will always lead to hurt feelings, when saying saving their feelings I meant saying something like 'Oh I would but I need to spend time on studying right now' or 'I don't want to hurt our friendship.' I know personally that when women do this they think they're doing the best thing by saying no in the kindest way possible but a lot of men have trouble with understanding that they're saying no at all.

I totally agree with your point, if a woman says no it's game over, do not pass go, do not get $200 but you should realise that by even doing that you're going to hurt someones feelings.

Spirit356:

SAVING A MANS FEELINGS IS ACTUALLY THE WORST THING YOU COULD EVER POSSIBLY DO. When it comes from men they seem to be binary, when they ask you out they are either expecting a 1 or a 0, yes or no. When you say something like 'Well I'd rather we just stay friends' you may believe that you are saying no but to a man you're saying maybe which is just as good as saying yes. Actually the best example of that is a 'How I met your mother' episode which for the life of me I cannot remember right now..

Actually, thats most people for you; humans tend to cling to hope, even when none is apparant. Personally, if someone says "I'd rather we just stay friends," thats a pretty big "NO" for me. Hell I've said the words myself. I have no problems hugging friends, or even kissing them on occasion, but I draw the line at anything further, simply because when I say no, it feels like I am being pressured into-or are pressurising- other people.

xXxJessicaxXx:

EmperorSubcutaneous:
I just saw your edit.

xXxJessicaxXx:
With women suffering from domestic violence complaining about this is worse than selfish tbh.

Oh, come on. That's like saying that people who aren't living in a third world country have no right to be depressed. Just because some unhealthy relationships are more unhealthy than other unhealthy relationships doesn't mean the people who are in them should be perfectly content because "it could be worse."

It's not even negative though...He is lavishing praise and presents on you and that upsets you? I'm not even talking about someone being in a relationship. I'm talking about people complaining about these Nice Guys who try to pursue one with them and then acting like they are the scum of the earth for being pleasant.

Are we living in backwards land now?

If I was a relationship with the guy you describe I would count myself lucky I had someone who cared about me tbh. It's better than men treating you like dirt.

That's not being pleasant, it's being obsessive.

Being pleasant is making you breakfast in bed on Saturdays and buying you a thoughtful gift for your birthday. Being obsessive is making you breakfast in bed every day and buying you any random gift every week.

You show someone you care about them by making room for them in your life, by paying attention to their needs and to their likes and dislikes. You don't do it by putting that person's needs before your own and deciding for them what they should like and dislike. I didn't like receiving that many presents, because I'm a minimalist who isn't a fan of owning things. Did he care? Nope. He believed that girls liked getting presents, so he should get presents for his girlfriend, and if she doesn't like them that just makes her a horrible person. Giving a gift shows love, so giving more gifts shows more love, right?

I felt like he didn't see me as a human, but as some kind of archetype or trophy or sometimes even a pet. A "goddess" again. Being treated as something other than human is unpleasant, whether it's negative treatment or positive. Just try saying to an Asian "all you people are really good at math," and they won't take it as a compliment.

If you really want to be in an obsessive relationship, you're going to be jumping from one unhealthy extreme to another. Don't do it.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here