Nice Guys Suck

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EmperorSubcutaneous:

xXxJessicaxXx:

EmperorSubcutaneous:

Yeah, clearly nothing I'm saying is getting through to you. You're too emotionally invested in this argument.

There's kind of a huge amount of space between being treated like dirt and being treated like a goddess on a pedestal who is never allowed to fall off it ever. But if you want to think there are only those two extremes, you can go right ahead and think that.

You are the one who put forward the idea of being put on a pedestal. I merely said that it's pretty ridiculous to complain about being treated nicely by someone. Nice is a good thing.

You took what I said completely out of context.

Absolutely no one in this thread is complaining about being treated nicely. That's not what it's about.

It's about "nice guy behavior." Which is not even remotely the same thing as "nice behavior."

It's my belief that this 'Nice Guy' doesn't exist though.
There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something.

Kahunaburger:

The point is more that 20 Skyrims = sexytime is basically an exaggeration of what the nice guy phenomenon boils down to.

Or maybe they are just doing it because they like her and they don't know how to express it.

This whole thing just seems incredibly narrow minded and judgemental to me

xXxJessicaxXx:

EmperorSubcutaneous:

xXxJessicaxXx:

You are the one who put forward the idea of being put on a pedestal. I merely said that it's pretty ridiculous to complain about being treated nicely by someone. Nice is a good thing.

You took what I said completely out of context.

Absolutely no one in this thread is complaining about being treated nicely. That's not what it's about.

It's about "nice guy behavior." Which is not even remotely the same thing as "nice behavior."

It's my belief that this 'Nice Guy' doesn't exist though.
There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something.

That's because you haven't met one yet.

I have met plenty. It becomes extremely clear in hindsight what their intentions were, when they start saying "but I did this and this and this for you, that means you're supposed to stay with me!" That explains pretty clearly what was going on in their head.

Eventually you learn what to look out for and you can recognize a "nice guy" pretty easily, though it sometimes takes a bit of time for it to really become clear.

EmperorSubcutaneous:

xXxJessicaxXx:

EmperorSubcutaneous:

Absolutely no one in this thread is complaining about being treated nicely. That's not what it's about.

It's about "nice guy behavior." Which is not even remotely the same thing as "nice behavior."

It's my belief that this 'Nice Guy' doesn't exist though.
There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something.

That's because you haven't met one yet.

I have met plenty. It becomes extremely clear in hindsight what their intentions were, when they start saying "but I did this and this and this for you, that means you're supposed to stay with me!" That explains pretty clearly what was going on in their head.

Eventually you learn what to look out for and you can recognize a "nice guy" pretty easily, though it sometimes takes a bit of time for it to really become clear.

Or maybe he thought he was doing what you wanted and was confused as to why you were unhappy?
No one is psychic.

xXxJessicaxXx:

Kahunaburger:

No, I personally love it when people give me copies of Skyrim. It's just that if someone bought me a copy of Skyrim every Saturday, and then was all "you should have sex with me because I gave you 20 copies of Skyrim!" I would be somewhat creeped out.

I think if they were crazy enough to do that they would have bigger problems than just being a 'Nice Guy' Someone with empathy and concern for people other than themselves would get them help and confront them with him. Not think 'What a creepy weirdo.' and bin them (as a friend).

I hope, kahunaburger, you don't find me stepping on your toes by jumping in here, but I'm a bit concerned about xXxJessicaxXx's comment as it can be very problematic.

xXxJessicaxXx, a Nice Guy who comes out and reveals that he was acting nice solely in an attempt to worm his way into your life and ultimately for sexual gratification is a liar, and that is a betrayal of the woman's trust. It also means they are not nice (since nice people do nice things without expectation of reward), and are in fact jerks. You are essentially trying to make the victim of this betrayal seem like a bad person for wanting nothing further to do with a jerk. Please, could you explain why it's a good idea to confront a jerk or why it is the responsibility of the jerk's victim to get the jerk help? Why is it selfish or sociopathic to want nothing to do with a jerk? In fact, continuing to maintain a relationship with a jerk out of some misplaced kindness can actually just make the jerk worse (since they do not receive negative consequences for their behaviour) and hurt both the jerk and the victim.

It is not the victim's responsibility to "fix" a jerk, and perpetuating this idea is actually quite harmful to the victim.

xXxJessicaxXx:

KirbyKrackle:

xXxJessicaxXx:

It's kind of a complete assumption that's what they are after in the first place though.

Nice Guys tend to make it quite clear, sooner or later, usually in the context of "I was so nice to you, you owe me X" or "how can she refuse me after I was so nice". Or sometimes they'll just never mention their true intentions, instead becoming increasingly bitter while refusing to ever change their poor behaviour since it's far easier to blame women and other people for their problems than suck it up and act like an adult.

Part of the problem, though, is that they are ultimately deceptive and you DON'T know that that's why they're being nice until the above blow up, which is why it's a huge problem, and again why I said it's an attempt to create and maintain a dishonest, unhealthy relationship.

Sorry but I just think it's an incredibly suspicious and victimising way of looking at it.
Most of these men just want someone to care for them back, they just don't know how to express it.

Making them out to be some ultimate evil is pretty harsh.

Especially from the point of view of someone who has experienced actual 'bad men'

Again, they are bad men. They are not the worst men, but they are still bad, and again it's problematic to ignore bad behaviour just because it's not the worst behaviour. And, again, their behaviour can lead to them becoming the worst sort of men or warn that they are, in fact, already the worst sort of men. Also, can you point out where I stated or even implied that they are "some ultimate evil"? I believe you are putting words in my mouth.

I also argue with your characterization of these men as someone who just wants "someone to care for them back" because if that was the case, they would have been happy to stay friends. The problem is that they might state that that's all they want, but they in fact have ulterior motives. Additionally, many, if not all, of them do know how to express their desires (ask the woman out on a date) but refuse to out of cowardice. This behaviour should not be accepted.

Cephei Mordred:

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

So much this... The women who expect men to be some kind of rockstar (and the reverse is true also) are the same as the ill touted Nice Guy because they have unrealistic expectations. 'Be amazing or I won't give you the time of day.' vs 'I gave you presents why won't you like me?' Aren't they equally as noxious?[/quote]

Well, one is deceptive, and the other isn't, so it's not actually quite the same. Also, might I add that it's a bit much to expect unconditional love while being a worthless human being? Talk about unrealistic expectations, not to mention an entitlement complex. Lay off the Bronte, CM ;)

EDIT: Again, I apologize for cutting in here, but I just want to mention that using "There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something" as an excuse for Nice Guy behaviour is ultimately quite dangerous in that it can be used as a blanket excuse for any kind of bad behaviour up to and including abuse. Just as an example, say a guy tries to control a woman and emotionally abuse her by insulting her ability to drive to the point where she's terrified to do it? Well, gosh, how do we know he was really an emotionally abusive asshole? We're not psychic. Maybe he was just concerned for her and didn't know how to express it.
...God it's disgusting to type that out.

KirbyKrackle:
snip

1. If you don't love someone while they are at their worse then you don't love them.
2. If you actually think there is such a thing as a 'worthless human being'....I don't even.
3. Someone who behaves like Kahuna described clearly has mental problems and should get help. What is wrong with wanting to help someone? Do you think compassion is a bad thing?

Edit. Just as an example once I was attacked badly by a man at a taxi rank. I got away from him but the next day the police came round the house having seen it on the cctv. I didn't press charges and made sure that he got into a rehab centre as he was homeless and a drug addict. That may make me a walkover or something but sometimes one chance is all people need.

4. I don't believe that this label has any grounding in reality it's pinning the socially awkward with certain attributes when in reality they are probably completely different. It's no different than calling all overweight people 'stupid fatties who stuff their face' when in reality each person may have a completely different reason as to why they are obese.
5. Once you are in love with someone it's very hard to be friends with them you do feel bitter and betrayed. Unrequited love is agonising. But that's a normal reaction and people shouldn't feel ashamed of it. Not wanting to be friends with someone who rejected you doesn't mean you had some sort of sinister plot all along.

I thought this might make you laugh in rl Im named after the Bronte sisters.

xXxJessicaxXx:

EmperorSubcutaneous:

xXxJessicaxXx:

It's my belief that this 'Nice Guy' doesn't exist though.
There is no way to know what is going on in someone's head when they do something.

That's because you haven't met one yet.

I have met plenty. It becomes extremely clear in hindsight what their intentions were, when they start saying "but I did this and this and this for you, that means you're supposed to stay with me!" That explains pretty clearly what was going on in their head.

Eventually you learn what to look out for and you can recognize a "nice guy" pretty easily, though it sometimes takes a bit of time for it to really become clear.

Or maybe he thought he was doing what you wanted and was confused as to why you were unhappy?
No one is psychic.

That's a pretty silly thing to say; you don't have to be psychic to be able to pick up on hints. You don't have to be psychic to understand sarcasm and innuendo either, you just have to have learned how to recognize them. It's pretty clear when supposed nice behavior is about making another person happy and when it's about making yourself happy.

I pretty much just have to echo what KirbyKrackle has been saying.

It's nice that everyone is showering you with praises, Lara. Unfortunately, it's completely unwarranted.

You see, you've chosen a forum that will respond to any feminine opinion with unqualified praise, because this entire site is composed of White Knights and Nice Guys TM.

I think your analysis leaves out something critical: female responsibility. You're correct that Nice Guys TM have an agenda. And EVERY FEMALE ON EARTH OVER THE AGE OF 14 knows that, too. But they are frequently content to play innocent, as if they have no idea that the guy living in abject poverty, who works two jobs in addition to attending school, who bought them a $200 gift "as a friend" might have something else in mind. Yes, these guys are passive-aggressive, unassertive wimps. All the more reason not to allow them to convince themselves that there is a chance. Ever. These guys continue their behavior because women make the conscious decision to allow them to do so. Because they enjoy the attention, because they are craven, small, insecure people themselves. Not all women. Just all the women who allow this to continue.

So stop pretending that you didn't know, and that the Nice GuyTM always brings this up as a complete surprise. You know. 95% of the women this has happened to know. You just wrote an entire article detailing your extensive knowledge of the phenomenon. Accept a little responsibility for enabling these pansies, and shift a little responsibility to those without a Y chromosome.

And by the way, there's a reason these men are so timid. Young women, when they reject someone, are vicious. It's socially empowering for a women to publicly humiliate a male. Negative reinforcement is a powerful motivator. Women created these sissies.

I was one of them, briefly. Then I realized that there are two options that will result in a woman finding a male attractive (not every woman, mind you, but probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/3): 1)Treat her as if you are GOING to sleep with her. Even if you don't use explicit terminology, become almost TOO affectionate, as soon as you meet them (warning: use only if at least moderately physically attractive). 2)Treat her as if you find her to border on being repugnant.

In other words: be a dick.

Stop saying women like nice guys, but don't like Nice GuysTM. Women like jerks. It's well-established. If a guy doesn't have the stones to be a jerk, the woman will know she can get everything she actually WANTS from him without any sort of emotional or physical investment. Why would a woman start a relationship with someone who is clearly so into them without any sort of return?

Women take. That's what they do. If a man doesn't demand some give AND take up front, then a woman will suck him dry.

EmperorSubcutaneous:

xXxJessicaxXx:

EmperorSubcutaneous:

That's because you haven't met one yet.

I have met plenty. It becomes extremely clear in hindsight what their intentions were, when they start saying "but I did this and this and this for you, that means you're supposed to stay with me!" That explains pretty clearly what was going on in their head.

Eventually you learn what to look out for and you can recognize a "nice guy" pretty easily, though it sometimes takes a bit of time for it to really become clear.

Or maybe he thought he was doing what you wanted and was confused as to why you were unhappy?
No one is psychic.

That's a pretty silly thing to say; you don't have to be psychic to be able to pick up on hints. You don't have to be psychic to understand sarcasm and innuendo either, you just have to have learned how to recognize them. It's pretty clear when supposed nice behavior is about making another person happy and when it's about making yourself happy.

I pretty much just have to echo what KirbyKrackle has been saying.

I don't know anything about you or him so I can't judge but it seems strange that you only gave him hints that your were unhappy and didn't sit down with him over it.

There is at least four turnouts.
1. They grow up and turn out fine. -Common
2. They become a hermit. - Rare rate
3. They become a depiction of human scum. - Almost impossible. Key term "Almost"
4. They actually acquire some good traits out of it and move on with their lives. - uncommon almost rare
Me let the human suffer the trial on its own.

xXxJessicaxXx:

KirbyKrackle:
snip

1. If you don't love someone while they are at their worse then you don't love them.
2. If you actually think there is such a thing as a 'worthless human being'....I don't even.
3. Someone who behaves like Kahuna described clearly has mental problems and should get help. What is wrong with wanting to help someone? Do you think compassion is a bad thing?
4. I don't believe that this label has any grounding in reality it's pinning socially awkward with certain attributes when in reality they are probably completely different. It's no different than calling all overweight people 'stupid fatties who stuff their face' when in reality each person may have a completely different reason as to why they are obese.
5. Once you are in love with someone it's very hard to be friends with them you do feel bitter and betrayed. Unrequited love is agonising. But that's a normal reaction and people shouldn't feel ashamed of it. Not wanting to be friends with someone who rejected you doesn't mean you had some sort of sinister plot all along.

1. And quite possibly that's because they don't deserve love. Always important to remember--some people, at their worst, do not deserve to be loved.
2. I'm hard pressed to think of how certain people have anything but negative worth (I guess they keep prison wardens employed?), but actually I was just taking up CM's previous comments on being "worthless", which, in CM's case, is probably untrue.
3. Well, like I said, it can be dangerous for the victim, it can reinforce the jerk's behaviour, and there's a problem with treating someone like a bad person for refusing to hang around with and fix that jerk. Also, most Nice Guys are perfectly sane and understand the consequences of their actions, just like most other jerks.
4. I think it's already been explained to you multiple times that Nice Guys are cowards and liars, not "socially awkward", though that's not to say they can't have all of those attributes.
5. I don't think anyone called Nice Guy behaviour a "sinister plot". Nor is the "Nice Guy" a "Nice Guy" because they have a normal reaction to rejection. It's because of an abnormal reaction to rejection as well as their behaviour leading up to that rejection.

PhiMed:
It's nice that everyone is showering you with praises, Lara. Unfortunately, it's completely unwarranted.

You see, you've chosen a forum that will respond to any feminine opinion with unqualified praise, because this entire site is composed of White Knights and Nice Guys TM.

I think your analysis leaves out something critical: female responsibility. You're correct that Nice Guys TM have an agenda. And EVERY FEMALE ON EARTH OVER THE AGE OF 14 knows that, too. But they are frequently content to play innocent, as if they have no idea that the guy living in abject poverty, who works two jobs in addition to attending school, who bought them a $200 gift "as a friend" might have something else in mind. Yes, these guys are passive-aggressive, unassertive wimps. All the more reason not to allow them to convince themselves that there is a chance. Ever. These guys continue their behavior because women make the conscious decision to allow them to do so. Because they enjoy the attention, because they are craven, small, insecure people themselves. Not all women. Just all the women who allow this to continue.

So stop pretending that you didn't know, and that the Nice GuyTM always brings this up as a complete surprise. You know. 95% of the women this has happened to know. You just wrote an entire article detailing your extensive knowledge of the phenomenon. Accept a little responsibility for enabling these pansies, and shift a little responsibility to those without a Y chromosome.

And by the way, there's a reason these men are so timid. Young women, when they reject someone, are vicious. It's socially empowering for a women to publicly humiliate a male. Negative reinforcement is a powerful motivator. Women created these sissies.

I was one of them, briefly. Then I realized that there are two options that will result in a woman finding a male attractive (not every woman, mind you, but probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/3): 1)Treat her as if you are GOING to sleep with her. Even if you don't use explicit terminology, become almost TOO affectionate, as soon as you meet them (warning: use only if at least moderately physically attractive). 2)Treat her as if you find her to border on being repugnant.

In other words: be a dick.

Stop saying women like nice guys, but don't like Nice GuysTM. Women like jerks. It's well-established. If a guy doesn't have the stones to be a jerk, the woman will know she can get everything she actually WANTS from him without any sort of emotional or physical investment. Why would a woman start a relationship with someone who is clearly so into them without any sort of return?

Women take. That's what they do. If a man doesn't demand some give AND take up front, then a woman will suck him dry.

So you switched from being a cowardly asshole to an honest asshole. I guess that's something.

KirbyKrackle:

xXxJessicaxXx:

KirbyKrackle:
snip

1. If you don't love someone while they are at their worse then you don't love them.
2. If you actually think there is such a thing as a 'worthless human being'....I don't even.
3. Someone who behaves like Kahuna described clearly has mental problems and should get help. What is wrong with wanting to help someone? Do you think compassion is a bad thing?
4. I don't believe that this label has any grounding in reality it's pinning socially awkward with certain attributes when in reality they are probably completely different. It's no different than calling all overweight people 'stupid fatties who stuff their face' when in reality each person may have a completely different reason as to why they are obese.
5. Once you are in love with someone it's very hard to be friends with them you do feel bitter and betrayed. Unrequited love is agonising. But that's a normal reaction and people shouldn't feel ashamed of it. Not wanting to be friends with someone who rejected you doesn't mean you had some sort of sinister plot all along.

1. And quite possibly that's because they don't deserve love. Always important to remember--some people, at their worst, do not deserve to be loved.
2. I'm hard pressed to think of how certain people have anything but negative worth (I guess they keep prison wardens employed?), but actually I was just taking up CM's previous comments on being "worthless", which, in CM's case, is probably untrue.
3. Well, like I said, it can be dangerous for the victim, it can reinforce the jerk's behaviour, and there's a problem with treating someone like a bad person for refusing to hang around with and fix that jerk. Also, most Nice Guys are perfectly sane and understand the consequences of their actions, just like most other jerks.
4. I think it's already been explained to you multiple times that Nice Guys are cowards and liars, not "socially awkward", though that's not to say they can't have all of those attributes.
5. I don't think anyone called Nice Guy behaviour a "sinister plot". Nor is the "Nice Guy" a "Nice Guy" because they have a normal reaction to rejection. It's because of an abnormal reaction to rejection as well as their behaviour leading up to that rejection.

Again you are using the term jerk and nice guy which have absolutely no meaning. Everyone acts a certain way for a reason even the darkest seriel murderers. No one is inherently evil or a 'jerk' like a child's storybook.

You said that when a nice guy is rejected they don't want to be friends which proves that they just wanted sex all along and didn't want to be cared about. That was my counter argument. Perhaps I should have quoted you.

I don't see how helping someone is reinforcing their behaviour? Would you rather women just took advantage of these men rather than point out that there is something that needs to be addressed with their behaviour. To me that would be more likely to perpetuate it.

Coward is such a relative term. I have anxiety disorder for example due to my 'man troubles' so I suppose I'm a snivelling coward in your estimation too huh?

Anyway I'm gonna go play some Skyrim now. I just want to say that I'm not up for slapping this label on people. I think it's nonsensical.

Drake666:
When I was younger (15-16), I was Nice Guy... what an asshole/dick I was :P
So, I think she's right; it's important to make a difference between Nice Guy and nice guy... It makes me think of the xkcd comic:
http://xkcd.com/513/

wow....that comic is incredibly depressing. I feel sorry for that girl

xXxJessicaxXx:

KirbyKrackle:

xXxJessicaxXx:

1. If you don't love someone while they are at their worse then you don't love them.
2. If you actually think there is such a thing as a 'worthless human being'....I don't even.
3. Someone who behaves like Kahuna described clearly has mental problems and should get help. What is wrong with wanting to help someone? Do you think compassion is a bad thing?
4. I don't believe that this label has any grounding in reality it's pinning socially awkward with certain attributes when in reality they are probably completely different. It's no different than calling all overweight people 'stupid fatties who stuff their face' when in reality each person may have a completely different reason as to why they are obese.
5. Once you are in love with someone it's very hard to be friends with them you do feel bitter and betrayed. Unrequited love is agonising. But that's a normal reaction and people shouldn't feel ashamed of it. Not wanting to be friends with someone who rejected you doesn't mean you had some sort of sinister plot all along.

1. And quite possibly that's because they don't deserve love. Always important to remember--some people, at their worst, do not deserve to be loved.
2. I'm hard pressed to think of how certain people have anything but negative worth (I guess they keep prison wardens employed?), but actually I was just taking up CM's previous comments on being "worthless", which, in CM's case, is probably untrue.
3. Well, like I said, it can be dangerous for the victim, it can reinforce the jerk's behaviour, and there's a problem with treating someone like a bad person for refusing to hang around with and fix that jerk. Also, most Nice Guys are perfectly sane and understand the consequences of their actions, just like most other jerks.
4. I think it's already been explained to you multiple times that Nice Guys are cowards and liars, not "socially awkward", though that's not to say they can't have all of those attributes.
5. I don't think anyone called Nice Guy behaviour a "sinister plot". Nor is the "Nice Guy" a "Nice Guy" because they have a normal reaction to rejection. It's because of an abnormal reaction to rejection as well as their behaviour leading up to that rejection.

Again you are using the term jerk and nice guy which have absolutely no meaning. Everyone acts a certain way for a reason even the darkest seriel murderers. No one is inherently evil or a 'jerk' like a child's storybook.

You said that when a nice guy is rejected they don't want to be friends which proves that they just wanted sex all along and didn't want to be cared about. That was my counter argument. Perhaps I should have quoted you.

I don't see how helping someone is reinforcing their behaviour? Would you rather women just took advantage of these men rather than point out that there is something that needs to be addressed with their behaviour. To me that would be more likely to perpetuate it.

Coward is such a relative term. I have anxiety disorder for example due to my 'man troubles' so I suppose I'm a snivelling coward in your estimation too huh?

I don't recall calling anyone "inherently evil" or even inherently a jerk. In fact, it's quite the opposite; a person is a jerk for behaving like a jerk.

Yes, you should probably quote me on that. I have a feeling I know what statement you're referring to, but I'm not sure.

In this case, remaining with the jerk simply serves to reinforce their behaviour (e.g., "she must still like me/I still have a chance/clearly I just have to wear her down a little more") as opposed to providing negative feedback (e.g., "Gosh, I just drove away the woman I was infatuated with; maybe this isn't a good way to court women"). Also, don't forget the other points I mentioned, particularly that it's pretty nasty to imply that the woman is somehow in the wrong for not wanting to remain around a jerk. And no, I don't recall ever suggesting that they should take advantage of the men. Again, you seem to be putting words in my mouth. Kindly stop. As I do recall, I was actually arguing that they should, as you say, "bin" them. They're jerks. Why keep being friends with them or hanging around them?

Well, since the word coward implies a disgraceful or shameful amount of fear, no. I'm also not sure what your legitimate fears have to do with a Nice Guy's dishonest behaviour either.

EDIT: The tone of some comments has me a bit worried, so I'm just going to reiterate: You do not have to remain around someone who is a jerk to you; you are not responsible for fixing that behaviour (that responsibility is the jerk's). You are not a bad person for not wanting anything to do with a person who is a jerk to you.

KirbyKrackle:

Nice Guys tend to make it quite clear, sooner or later, usually in the context of "I was so nice to you, you owe me X" or "how can she refuse me after I was so nice". Or sometimes they'll just never mention their true intentions, instead becoming increasingly bitter while refusing to ever change their poor behaviour since it's far easier to blame women and other people for their problems than suck it up and act like an adult.

Part of the problem, though, is that they are ultimately deceptive and you DON'T know that that's why they're being nice until the above blow up, which is why it's a huge problem, and again why I said it's an attempt to create and maintain a dishonest, unhealthy relationship.

I just wanted to say thank you Kirby for this post, pretty much helped me get rid of those worrying fears that I might have been a Nice Guy(TM) and not just someone who needs help with fears of being in a social setting.

I remember now that when I had a girlfriend in highschool I actually somehow had the nerve to talk to her and eventaully had the nerve to actually ask her out without fear. I guess now I just try and get over my fears in a social setting and maybe I can meet someone at sometime in my life and not just be second place or anything like that.

Also remember getting this cheap little gift for a girl my age at work who had a kid and didn't expect anything in return since I was just getting her a gift and that's all. So that's a good sign of just being nice and not a Nice Guy(TM) right?

xXxJessicaxXx:
I don't know anything about you or him so I can't judge but it seems strange that you only gave him hints that your were unhappy and didn't sit down with him over it.

I was much younger then and learned my lesson.

The fact is, I was a lot like you. I didn't believe in the whole "nice guy" thing either. I had fantasies of princesses and knights in shining armor, and he shared that fantasy. I confused being in love with being an uncomplaining doormat. I figured that since he was just trying so gosh darn hard to be nice, I should appreciate the effort even though I didn't like it.

The next relationship I got into was with another type of "nice guy": the kind who is nice to you but an asshole to everyone else, and claims that he's really nice deep down but he's just been hurt too many times and only you can heal him. He ended up becoming emotionally abusive and controlling and there's a good chance he also could have become physically abusive if we'd kept going. But I was starting to wake up.

Some of your posts have me worried. It's clear why you were in an abusive relationship, and if you don't reconsider certain beliefs, you're doomed to be used over and over and over. Like how you say that you should love someone even when they're at their worst. Of course you should. But if their worst involves hurting or manipulating you, then you should not be in a relationship with them because they don't truly love you back and so they don't deserve your love. And yes it hurts to become "just friends" with someone you have feelings for, but staying with them even though your relationship is a bad fit is infinitely worse.

I think the underlying issue is that some men are afraid that the things they were taught as a child in order to seek love, like respect, honesty, loyalty, generosity and so forth, will not be succesful, and they must behave like something they loathe.

mixed messages about gender-roles, be it through media or otherwise, dont really help either.

men get told to be aloof and distant, and yet still be the one to make the first move.
they get praised for getting laid a lot, but demonised for using girls just for sex.

they get told that being nice is a weakness, despite it being a compliment or praise.

how does that not get confusing?

although, to be fair, women aren't better off either, just look at the whole "twilight generation".

I suggest we may also discuss the "nice girl" phenomena, a similar case but with the roles reversed, because even women can show nice behavious and be unappreciated for it.

Ok...

I find the logic behind this new wave of thinking a little problematic, and not only in that it seems hell bent on absolving the women in these scenarios of any blame whatsoever.

This is a trait that isn't chosen, noone aspires to be awkward and unsuccessful with women. I'm also pretty sure it's not something that someone can snap out of easily. We're aware of implicit memory, and how our upbringings(even down to simple things like how much human contact we had as babies)have an enormous affect on how we later see and interact with what's around us...more of our behaviour is determined by our collective sub-consciences than I think we're allowing credit for.

If we're just relaying personal experiences. I saw this happen twice in my peer group. Neither time were the females blameless(far from), and both times it was obvious that the fellas suffered a lot more.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say exactly...other than that derision simply doesn't feel right to me. Are they "assholes", or victims of the society that reared them?

"Nice Guys™, on the other hand, are passive-aggressive babies who feel entitled to a woman's affections simply because they've "been there for her"*."

HA! Hell-fucking-o 90% of the male forum users.

I think my favourite thing is when they won't shut the fuck up about how much they "respect women", right before going on to say that that's why they expect them to behave/dress only in a certain way, and be "lady-like" and 'just so'.

Other symptoms of being a Nice Guy include thinking you're 'chivalrous', claiming you do everything for a girl and expecting this to mean she owes you emotional allegiance, saying girls only go for arse holes, etc. etc.

Actual nice people never have to use the clarification that they are "a nice guy".

KirbyKrackle:

Cephei Mordred:

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

So much this... The women who expect men to be some kind of rockstar (and the reverse is true also) are the same as the ill touted Nice Guy because they have unrealistic expectations. 'Be amazing or I won't give you the time of day.' vs 'I gave you presents why won't you like me?' Aren't they equally as noxious?

Well, one is deceptive, and the other isn't, so it's not actually quite the same. Also, might I add that it's a bit much to expect unconditional love while being a worthless human being? Talk about unrealistic expectations, not to mention an entitlement complex. Lay off the Bronte, CM ;)

Okay, Kirby, that was uncalled for.

To say that I have to be of value in order to receive love is the same is saying that I have to justify my existence on earth to others.

To say that it's 'entitled' of me to actually believe in unconditional love, which necessitates actually being unconditional and not contingent on being awesome or great, is simply ridiculous.

but i'm a nice guy! without the tm!!! i guess that's why i've been so lonely for such a long time :C

and that's part of why there's so many Nice Guytm's out there, because being a nice like guys like me never gets us anywhere because everyone else around us is mean and wants to crush our hopes and aspirations.

Don't underestimate Nice Guys(TM). Once they have suffered enough rejection, they will be at an impasse: Either accept that being nice alone will not attract the women they want, or become so confounded by it they will start to think that treachery and manipulation is perfectly fair (and even required) in this cold, cruel world. With assholes in pop culture giving them pointers, capricious women around them constantly proclaiming their love for bad-boys, their lady friends taking pity on their loneliness, and a will to refuse to suffer and loose again, Nice Guys(TM) can actually be quite toxic.

Most nice guys (both types) watching "My Best Friend's Girl" will be repulsed by Dane Cook's blunt asshole character even though Freddie Prince Jr's Nice Guy(TM) character is just as manipulative and even less honest.

I love this article, and this column just won a new fan. I would love to see the flip side of gender: The difference between sassy women and just plain bitchy ones.

What a fantastic end to the article!

What I have noticed is girls want to find a twat and then get to know him and find he's nice. Why this is i have no idea.

Girls prefer confidence to people being nice...

Edit: on re-reading this I realise I sound bitter - as someone who both found someone who appreciated a nice guy, I realise I have no call to be.

However - attracting her made me change how I act to other girls... turns out I'm much better at attracting girls by being an obnoxious prick then I ever was as a gentleman.

I'm a regular nice guy. I'm with a nice girl who is often hit on for being very good-looking and into games. We have an extremely healthy, trusting relationship that started out as a friendship, and since developed into something more. We've broken up twice before, and the second time we went on a 2-year hiatus, during which time neither of us found somebody better. We both matured and dealt with some of our own hardships in that time and have since gotten back together, with resounding success, and have been together for a very long time now.

Point is, nice guys don't finish last. They lose the 100m sprint, but win the marathon. I think that Lara really doesn't seem to understand that she doesn't represent every girl on the planet, and is extremely derogatory of nice guys because that's not what she likes, and I don't think she deserves this article spot. The advice is often rage-inducingly bad, and at best can only set you up for a dead-end relationship with a little sex if you're lucky. All men are different, as are all women, and you can't state generalisations to be fact in these articles.

This is all the advice people need: Be 90% yourself. Try to hide the bad habits and don't fart, but otherwise be yourself. Be proud of your nerdy interests, and try to find someone that shares a lot of them, but don't try to make them like something they have no interest. Secondly, don't be ashamed to wait for someone worthwhile. Being single is preferable to being in a dead-end relationship, trust me.

I think that Susan Arendt should write one of these. I can almost guarantee that the advice will be a whole lot better, as well as being from a perspective that is of far more use to the Escapist's readers.

lol the whole thing is literally just "if you're doing nice things for a girl in exchange for sex, it doesn't count unless you tell the girl first," over and over and over, but then at the last paragraph it goes off on an insane rant about stuff that has nothing to do with anything that came before. Ironically, the writer was actually trying to clarify the message of an earlier article that confused a lot of people.

Count Lieberkuhn:
I'm a regular nice guy. I'm with a nice girl who is often hit on for being very good-looking and into games.

Dude, you're lucky, meaning that most others are not as fortunate. This advice is for them.

We have an extremely healthy, trusting relationship that started out as a friendship, and since developed into something more. We've broken up twice before, and the second time we went on a 2-year hiatus, during which time neither of us found somebody better.

Um... Respectfully, are you sure about that? On-off relationships are not healthy at all in my experience. Just from the wording of your statement it seems like you both just settled on each other. Not trying to accuse... Just Saying(TM).

This is all the advice people need: Be 90% yourself. Try to hide the bad habits and don't fart, but otherwise be yourself.

Frustrated gentlemen don't understand what that means. "I AM myself! I'm the nice guy! Why won't that attract her?!" I believe Lara is saying that niceness alone isn't going to cut it.

Here's an example: I'm a nice guy who likes FPS games, seeing comedies and paintball. My friend is a nice guy who likes J-RPGs, Poetry and watching dramas. We are both "nice" but we're also very different. Perhaps the "Girl" prefers my J-RPG friend over me.

Being single is preferable to being in a dead-end relationship, trust me.

I couldn't agree more. Needs are NOT wants.

Count Lieberkuhn:
I'm a regular nice guy. I'm with a nice girl who is often hit on for being very good-looking and into games. We have an extremely healthy, trusting relationship that started out as a friendship, and since developed into something more. We've broken up twice before, and the second time we went on a 2-year hiatus, during which time neither of us found somebody better. We both matured and dealt with some of our own hardships in that time and have since gotten back together, with resounding success, and have been together for a very long time now.

Point is, nice guys don't finish last. They lose the 100m sprint, but win the marathon. I think that Lara really doesn't seem to understand that she doesn't represent every girl on the planet, and is extremely derogatory of nice guys because that's not what she likes, and I don't think she deserves this article spot. The advice is often rage-inducingly bad, and at best can only set you up for a dead-end relationship with a little sex if you're lucky. All men are different, as are all women, and you can't state generalisations to be fact in these articles.

This is all the advice people need: Be 90% yourself. Try to hide the bad habits and don't fart, but otherwise be yourself. Be proud of your nerdy interests, and try to find someone that shares a lot of them, but don't try to make them like something they have no interest. Secondly, don't be ashamed to wait for someone worthwhile. Being single is preferable to being in a dead-end relationship, trust me.

I think that Susan Arendt should write one of these. I can almost guarantee that the advice will be a whole lot better, as well as being from a perspective that is of far more use to the Escapist's readers.

You're lucky enough to find someone like that. Not all are fortunate to that regard.

But, to not sound demeaning, I'm getting so tired of hearing the "be yourself" schtick. As I am proud of some of my personal traits and interests and try my best to hide some of my negative habits, being myself has put me absolutely nowhere with women, so how am I suppose to deal with that? I don't want to turn into a different type of person that I despise. I fail to understand any implications in this kind of situation.

Xeraxis:
But, to not sound demeaning, I'm getting so tired of hearing the "be yourself" schtick. As I am proud of some of my personal traits and interests and try my best to hide some of my negative habits, being myself has put me absolutely nowhere with women, so how am I suppose to deal with that?

In almost 2 decades post-puberty, I've found two constant truths:
1) The fact that someone is getting laid regularly by an excellent member of the sex they're attracted to is no guarantee they won't be an insecure douche-nozzle.

and

2) Insecure douche-nozzles like to pretend that getting laid regularly by an excellent member of the sex they're attracted to is proof of a person's social skills and sophistication, but the fact is that in the end all relationships boil down to timing more than anything else. Being a charismatic stallion does nothing for you if you spend all your time alone in your home, and being a miserable troglodyte is no hindrance if you are surrounded by enough people of the sex you're attracted to that at least one of them is lonely enough to give you a chance.

So in short, it's an odds game more than anything else. How many people that you are compatible with are you able to meet when you and those people are available to hook up? It's not a question of personal quality, it's a question of probability. But that doesn't stop people who have beat the odds from pretending that it is an issue of quality. That's where "just be yourself" comes from- the myth that everyone who is getting laid must just be being more honest with their partners than the people who aren't. It's yet another way that people who are terribly insecure pretend that they aren't.

"Be yourself" isn't good advice because it will get you laid- because those odds have very little to do with who "yourself" is. It's good advice because there's no point in getting stressed about not being who you aren't. It's good advice because you may as well enjoy the times that you aren't getting sexed up.

Cephei Mordred:
I suppose the difference between you and me is:

You think that "You have a duty to provide value to others" and "You should be valuable because you want to be, but everyone has a right to look down on you if you fail to do so" are two different things.

I don't. Or at least, I think that it's impossible to differentiate between the two meaningfully.

I didn't state that they should "look down on you". I said they just wouldn't care about you. There is a difference between looking down on someone and simply not giving a sh*t.

Also, i never said you have a "duty". In fact, i clearly stated that it's entirely up to you if you want to work towards people being able to appreciate you more easily.

It's perfectly reasonable to differentiate between the two meaningfully by the simple fact that it's a FREE CHOICE, just like taking an education. But being a free choice doesn't exclude it for being a requirement if you want to obtain something, but if you don't want to obtain something, then you don't have to do it.

Everyone has different motivations. Some people want to be awesome to be liked. Some people want to be awesome because it's awesome being awesome.

Cephei Mordred:
As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

No one loves another person unconditionally (because of 'fate' or some other arbitrary explanation). By that logic, would you still love your girlfriend/wife even if she cheated on you a hundred times? Would you love her if she suddenly decided to have a gender reassignment surgery? Would you love her if she some day showed up at a family dinner with a shotgun and shot your mom?

Don't fool yourself please. Love ALWAYS has conditions. And by conditions, I'm not just talking on the conscious level (as in having certain expectations of your (potential) partner), I'm also talking deep down on the chemical level and how your brain works. When you fall in love with someone, it is ALWAYS because something in that person (a combination of their looks, personality, events you experienced with them etc.) triggered the attraction, which means that the attraction had a condition. Unconditional love is like a unicorn: it only exists in fantasies.

And bottom line is that when it comes to attraction, personality is and will always be the biggest deciding factor. So to answer your question about why you should believe that a her feelings are sincere for you: Because if you were once weak and worthless, but got over it, then you changed your personality and are (essentially) a different person to her than when she met you the first time.

She might not have loved your old personality, but that doesn't exclude her being able to sincerely love your new one. And let me point out that i never used the word "productive", and never would use it in this context. Simply being an awesome person to be around is enough to provide people with value. It's an attribute, not a job.

And I'd like to point out that I'm speaking from personal experience on this once. I once met a girl through a friend at a time where i was a heavy drinker when i was out partying. It quickly became apparent after some interactions over the course of a few weeks with her that she resented my personality massively, even when i was only semi-drunk or sober.

Fast forward 9 months where i met her again after i stopped drinking and started partying sober, as well as having drastically managed to improve my personality. Watching a woman who was previously stone-cold to you suddenly turn warm (to the point of us even making out) because you simply changed your behavior is a real eye-opener, but most importantly, she is only ONE out of literally 50-100 examples of people who changed their attitude towards me because i managed to improve my behavior. I didn't do anything for them to buy their affection. I simply just started being a cool guy to hang out with instead of a mostly-drunken insecure adult who was still mentally a teenager. Not only did it cost me nothing except commitment, but i gained a lot in return from it, and it also improved my life in other areas (like the ability to handle exams and job interviews better).

I don't know if your religious or something, but I'm just going to give you an advice: Get out of your fantasy land. You'll be doing yourself a favor. This is a hard cruel world, and if you want to achieve something (emphasis on 'IF', no one is forcing you) then you have to work for it.

If i were to transfer your logic to a video game analogy (we're on the Escapist after all), your logic is essentially equal to having a piece of software that you never patch. No-one is perfect out of the box, but that doesn't mean you can't strive to be better, and just like video game developers release patches to improve their game and fix faults, you can patch yourself to and become more awesome. If you patch your video games, why wouldn't you patch yourself?

Cephei Mordred:

KirbyKrackle:

Cephei Mordred:

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

So much this... The women who expect men to be some kind of rockstar (and the reverse is true also) are the same as the ill touted Nice Guy because they have unrealistic expectations. 'Be amazing or I won't give you the time of day.' vs 'I gave you presents why won't you like me?' Aren't they equally as noxious?

Well, one is deceptive, and the other isn't, so it's not actually quite the same. Also, might I add that it's a bit much to expect unconditional love while being a worthless human being? Talk about unrealistic expectations, not to mention an entitlement complex. Lay off the Bronte, CM ;)

Okay, Kirby, that was uncalled for.

To say that I have to be of value in order to receive love is the same is saying that I have to justify my existence on earth to others.

To say that it's 'entitled' of me to actually believe in unconditional love, which necessitates actually being unconditional and not contingent on being awesome or great, is simply ridiculous.

I considered writing a full response to this, but I think Athinira covered it pretty well. Adding anything else would likely be redundant on my part. Let me know though if there is anything you would still like me to clarify that you feel Athinira did not discuss or that you feel pertains particularly to my comments.

Lara Crigger:
Love FAQ: Nice Guys Suck

"Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't just a song by Green Day.

Read Full Article

people still listen to green day?
antway
Yeah, i cant stand Nice Guys(tm), i actually just hate manipulation of others for self gain all together.

Nice Guy(tm)

In all probability this has already been said, but I'll say it again: props for your word choice.

dalek sec:

KirbyKrackle:

Nice Guys tend to make it quite clear, sooner or later, usually in the context of "I was so nice to you, you owe me X" or "how can she refuse me after I was so nice". Or sometimes they'll just never mention their true intentions, instead becoming increasingly bitter while refusing to ever change their poor behaviour since it's far easier to blame women and other people for their problems than suck it up and act like an adult.

Part of the problem, though, is that they are ultimately deceptive and you DON'T know that that's why they're being nice until the above blow up, which is why it's a huge problem, and again why I said it's an attempt to create and maintain a dishonest, unhealthy relationship.

I just wanted to say thank you Kirby for this post, pretty much helped me get rid of those worrying fears that I might have been a Nice Guy(TM) and not just someone who needs help with fears of being in a social setting.

I remember now that when I had a girlfriend in highschool I actually somehow had the nerve to talk to her and eventaully had the nerve to actually ask her out without fear. I guess now I just try and get over my fears in a social setting and maybe I can meet someone at sometime in my life and not just be second place or anything like that.

Also remember getting this cheap little gift for a girl my age at work who had a kid and didn't expect anything in return since I was just getting her a gift and that's all. So that's a good sign of just being nice and not a Nice Guy(TM) right?

Well, thank you kindly for saying so! I'm certainly no relationship expert, so I can't really advise on the ins and outs of the situations you've presented. However, I guess my main point about Nice Guys is that they are fundamentally dishonest, which cannot lead to a healthy relationship, so since you're interested in being honest about your intentions when starting relationships you should probably be okay. I can also commiserate a bit because man, social settings are hard, as is working up the nerve to ask someone out (however, doing this, rather than being underhanded about it in a Nice Guy fashion, is beneficial as it demonstrates that you do possess "nerve", some confidence, and honesty). Also, much like, say, a job interview, it's okay to feel a bit nervous and, while disappointing, it's okay to get rejected; it's still an experience you can learn from.

Oh and I guess I'm rambling by now, but the interview analogy can apply to other things, like looking fairly well groomed and being polite and not acting desperate and having something to show how valuable you are beyond "well I guess I'm nice" and, of course, not lying. Not sure how far this analogy should be taken though.

Anyway, good luck to you!

Wow, definitely a hot subject. This is the first time a LoveFAQ article has hit triple-digits in comments.

So the gist of the article is that being nice has no value in dating? That a man can only enter a meaningful relationship if he has exceptional qualities to flaunt? That the only way for a man to get laid is to pretty much say from the very beginning "Hey, let's hang out so that I can try to bang you next month"? I'm calling total bullshit on that.

Some men are actually unlucky enough to have no special qualities, talents, or abilities. This could be because of a poor education, unlucky job history, unconventional upbringing, some kind of disability, whatever. How are these men supposed to show off to women? When a man truely has no outstanding skills above other men, then being "nice" IS the only thing they have going for them, since it is the only thing that distinguishes us nice guys from the hoards of womanizing jackasses that give men a bad reputation. Nice guys have more respect for themselves and the women they seek to enter a relationship with than that.

You tell us to "be a supernova". This is about the most unrealistic expectation you could possibly have of a nice, quiet, shy man. Some men don't want to stand out, but rather have a quiet uneventful life that they can share with a woman who equally desires a quiet uneventful life. And some men are so shy around new people (especially women) that it takes them months, sometimes years, before they warm up enough to them to engage them on a personal level. And unfortunately, by the time that happens, the poor guy has long been friend-zoned. Being a "supernova", doing something stupid to stand out, to make us attractive, directly contradicts the whole "be yourself" principle that most people give as dating advice. For many men, just approaching a woman to begin with is far out of their comfort zone, and should qualify as being a "supernova" compared to their normal routine of hiding in fear of rejection.

Also, have you ever considered WHY some Nice Guys(tm) are the way they are? Well, when a man goes for years or decades without having a single successful date while all his friends around him have gotten laid thousands of times over, then he starts to get delusional and fanatic about the few women who do show him some sliver of attention. It is ***NOT*** because he is naturally a bad person! It is ***NOT*** because he is manipulative or deceptive for his own personal gain! It is because he is getting desperate to find a mate because he is so far behind his friends. A man whose been rejected hundreds or thousands of times consistently over the course of many years will obviously have self-esteem issues, and is going to become a little stalkerish! And every time a woman rejects him, it only makes things worse. He grows to hate women because he feels that women hate him, and feels that showering them with attention and buying them things will remedy that mutual hate. You see that as creepy. The man sees it as trying to mend a broken relationship.

A hint to ALL women: If a nice guy approches you, just freaking go on a couple dates with him! If you don't like him, be honest and respectful. If he gets clingy and stalkerish, help him out by introducing him to some of your friends you think he might like.

And I used to be such a nice guy...

lol myself aside (no really, I'm more of a cynical jerk nowadays), something people should also learn to differentiate: bad boy versus Bad Boy™
:P

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