Nice Guys Suck

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So much whining in this thread, kinda demonstrates LoveFAQS point rather well if you ask me.

KaiusCormere:
It must be nice for introverted women to not have to be told to change their entire personality or die alone.

The personality change you mention isnt as drastic as you make it, its a simple function of growing up.

All these implications that a nice guy's only quality is that they're nice (I mean, that's why you call them nice guys, right?).

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Lara Crigger:
Love FAQ: Nice Guys Suck

"Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't just a song by Green Day.

Read Full Article

What you're really getting at (or rather, what we should be getting at) is stop trying to display the "right" personality. Discover the one you have, and then display that one.

Whether you're pretending to be Nice™, pretending to be Bad™, or whatever else you're putting on, realize that you're wearing a costume. One that, sooner or later, is coming off. Nothing turns feelings bad quite like bait-and-switch. I mean, I love hamburgers, and I love Twinkies, but if you gave me what looked like a Twinkie, and it ended up tasting like hamburger? I'm not just disgusted, I'm also pissed.

Too many people approach dating the way a highway patrol officer approaches tickets -- they wait along the side of the road until they spot a subject they want, and then they step on the gas and try to flag them down. And, generally speaking, the results are about the same -- after awhile, the "subject" leaves angrily and continues on his/her way.

Instead, travel your road. Find out where you're going, who you are, who you're trying to be, and then find the person that always seems to be popping up on the same road. Attraction =/= Compatibility, and compatibility can't be faked (forever).

Be a person. Learn what that means. And then always carry with you the knowledge that the "other" is also being a person. That means they have wants, wishes, likes, dislikes, and goals that are wholly separate from you. If they're not interested, that's all it means. They're not "wrong" for not falling for you, just like you're not "wrong" for not falling for the guy/girl who is eventually going to try the same thing with you (provided it hasn't already happened, and you just failed to see it that way).

The lesson here? When it comes to dating, if you have to "try" to be anything, you're doing it wrong.

What exactly qualifies this author to give any kind of advice to men? Everything she is saying is based on her own personal worldview and her own dating experiences.

There are plenty of women who are not interested in "nice guys [who] are genuine, honest, likable people: Men of generosity, of kindness, who treat those around them with respect." There are plenty of women, especially college-aged, who like men who are exciting, lead them on emotional rollercoasters, and create drama. To them, a "nice guy" (lowercase, no trademark) as described by the author will generally be viewed as boring and passive.

My "advice" is that there is no one set rule for anybody. The most I would tell anyone is: BE SOCIAL. There is no pickup technique, style of clothes, cologne, or dating advice that has ever got me laid, but there's what has time and time again: having lots of friends. I have a lot of male and female friends, and this means I am regularly introduced to new women who are friends of friends. I will get to know these girls until I see if we are similar enough to click, then I ask them out. Sometimes they say yes, and sometimes they say no. That's all there is to it.

"Fuck being a nice guy, be a supernova".

Quote of the week.

So, you'll get lots of pick-up artist/Game success stories, where guys will talk about how after they started being a "cocky, funny asshole" or whatever, suddenly there were so many more women interested in them. All of these stories have one thing in common. The first thing they did was practice whatever their stupid "technique" was on a bunch of women, who all rejected them. They took the advice of some guru who found a piece of evolutionary psychology and looked at it cross-eyed until it gave him a result he liked, and they followed some idiot script and then eventually when it worked they decided that the method must be golden.

The amount of bad science in there is overwhelming. The simple truth is, if you want a quick bang, asking a metric ton of drunk girls who are very likely looking for the same thing is going to work for you eventually. The details of which script you follow, the details of which persona you adopt, none of them matter so long as they help you soften the blow of rejection enough to ask fifty girls in a row until one says yes. Also, you're a prick, but if you're willing to treat people terribly so you can have sex, you probably don't care. The actual part of the PUA strategy that works is just attrition. Keep trying until you find someone who wants you. The part where you're a jerk is just because you've always been a jerk, but now your dating strategy isn't contingent upon pretending otherwise, and also because you're a gullible moron who'll believe anything an internet guru tells you so long as it's what you want to hear.

Their longterm strategies are in a similar vein. Being able to offer a girl something that no one else can offer is basically the key to success. Also, it has to be something that she actually wants. Also, being able to convince her that you can offer something (and later, convince her that she's receiving it) even if you can't (or she isn't) can go a long way towards that if you don't actually want a relationship, just a steady supply of sex, money, contacts, or whatever. People are alarmingly willing to delude themselves into thinking something which isn't true, is, so this is very doable if you have lots of practice with projecting a persona you don't actually have.

If you're genuinely looking for a good relationship, though, the secret is to get really, really good at whatever it is you are good at and keep on talking to girls until you find one who wants to have sex with you because of it.

Well put. Women, or wait, I shouldn't speak for all women. I love nice guys and would want to stay far away from jerks.

The problem is, all, err, most of the people I see talking about "nice guys", are guys who describe themselves as "nice guys" and have a chip on their shoulder. It's ironic, because these guys aren't nice guys at all, and instead seem like the jerk guys I try to avoid.

I've never dated a jerk guy and I would never date a jerk guy. But most of the guys I see complain about how "nice guys" aren't like, are the people who hate nice guys, and act as if they have a right to women, see women as some kind of conquest, and just seem vicious and wanting to take advantage of someone.

And it's not attractive.

I hope you're just as harsh and unsympathetic to women who ever have a chip on their shoulder about the other gender.

Which is not to say you shouldn't, I don't mean that. I'm saying both genders need this information.

Baresark:
I've never actually read one of these before, but having a substantial dating past, I will now give my two cents to be flamed later on:

Nice Guys™ are dastardly bastards who are only hiding their insecurites. Nice guys are people who wear their insecurities on their sleeve.

Do you honestly believe that? Everyone has insecurities, and there are lots of benefits to not making them public.

"Because love only comes to those who earn it."

"Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun."

This fortune cookie hallmark crap is making me physically nauseous.

And stop abusing the tm joke. Only one site on the internet is allowed to do that (and it's not this one).

mad825:
The term "Nice guys finish last" is an out-of-date term, ever since the work from R.Dawkins, the selfish gene. It is "Nice guys finish first".

FYI it is a phrase that has been taken out of context since ... ever.

It wasn't even about dating or relationships or whatever it was originally about a baseball team.

Some guy was talking about a baseball team saying that they're nice guys but they aren't that good at baseball so they finish last all the time.

KirbyKrackle:

Now to drop the analogy before it snaps from being overused and overstretched.

Too late.

"It doesn't matter how many women you ask out (hundreds, thousands) if you they are, in fact, too good for you. "

Right around here is where it shattered.

You give employers a resume listing all your qualifications. How often do you tell someone everything about yourself before asking them out?

Where did this "be a supernova" thing come from? I get the gist of what it's supposed to mean, but the etymology is elusive to me, and I'm struck with a curiosity strong enough to lure several cats to their untimely demise.

I consider myself to be a very cool person. Yes, I have been the nice guy before, but I don't think I've been the "Nice Guy™" (Alt + 0153 for anyone who's curious). I think the problem stems from the definition or really what qualities it takes to make a nice guy trademarked and capitalized. And I think that difference is dishonesty. Unfortunately, there is an issue with intention that becomes troublesome here.

Did the "nice guy" in question know he was lying when he said, "Yes, I'll only be your friend"? If yes, he knew that he was lying to get closer, then he's trademarked. Manipulative. Likely kind of shady or has a somewhat imbalanced perception of relationships. But...

But what if the guy genuinely didn't know he was lying? What if he accepted the offer of friendship without thinking it through? Does he give up that friendship to ask for space? Perhaps he assumes that cowardice is akin to romance and losing the friend is worse than staying changeless, but this person likely isn't strong willed and wouldn't be attractive in the long run anyway. Being afraid to change is lacking goals, is lacking drive; women don't need you to command the room, but they would prefer you know what you want in life and go for it. There's nothing worse than feeling like you're someone's safety.

Last situation: what if you really do want to be friends with someone, but they keep sending mixed signals? Like awkwardly long hugs. And, yeah the truth is you didn't want to let go anyway, but making a move is still terrifying because she is such a good friend. I still don't know the answer to this one, but I have a feeling there's a decent mixture of these three scenarios and several others that will never be answerable with two pages of text on an internet dating advice column.

Father Time:

Baresark:
I've never actually read one of these before, but having a substantial dating past, I will now give my two cents to be flamed later on:

Nice Guys™ are dastardly bastards who are only hiding their insecurites. Nice guys are people who wear their insecurities on their sleeve.

Do you honestly believe that? Everyone has insecurities, and there are lots of benefits to not making them public.

There are only benefits to not making them public. My point was meant to be with the rest of my total statement, not taken out of context. The issue was insecurities. The nice guy vs. douche bag mentality has never been a point in the fight to attract the opposite sex. You are much better off not showing your insecurities, which is why the Nice Guy™ wins. You can even bet that one has even more insecurities. My point was that self confidence is the main factor, and the nice guy vs Nice Guy™ is an illusion.

Well put. I notice your definitions also pass the Role Reversal Test, where the nice gal and the "Nice Gal" do all the same things for the same reasons.

Use to be a nice guy. Things that I got out of being said nice guy. An ear for listening and talking skills. Nothing else but those things are good in a conversation especially when arguing. Now what I lost after giving up the Nice guy act was a hopeful view because in the end someone is going to screw you over. Now I honestly am much happier for losing such a view.

AquaAscension:
Where did this "be a supernova" thing come from?

A lot of posts here were saying how bitchy girls are to blame for Nice Guy™ insecurities, how women can be introverted but a guy has to change otherwise he is a bastard and other nonsense like that.
There is a common belief that Nice Guys™ are just insecure and are doing their best because of it... Well, you want to get ride of your insecurities? Become a Supernova.

I know it sounds stupid and ridicules and over the top and irrelevant. It isn't...
We are all bashful gamers but while some of us hide behind our insecurities some of us fight them. "Nice" isn't a trait to flaunt, nice should be the norm and you should have enough personality traits and life experience to be more than just nice, and if you aren't than you should start now.

Don't be the quiet-but-nice-guy, how the fuck is anyone ever going to find out how awesome you are if you barely ever speak? Women aren't mind readers.

Instead, be the outgoing nice guy, you talk to people, have fun and do stupid shit. People will remember you when you aren't there and they'll talk about you, hell, someone might even fall for you.

You don't have to be a completely different person to be 'Supernova', be yourself but louder.

And ladies:

If you meet a nice guy who's outgoing and you're interested in him just fucking ask him out already, we may be louder and more outgoing than quiet-but-nice-guys or Nice Guys™ but that doesn't mean we aren't susceptible to shyness and insecurity, particularly around women.

Problem is, having to measure up to any kind of standard is the same as saying that we are not allowed to self judge our own worth, and must instead be under the towering judgement of others.

And yes, it does seem more like men are subject to this than women.

You would never see an article here saying "Women must be a certain way, love must be earned."

It's the "love must be earned" stuff that really bothers me.

Cephei Mordred:
Problem is, having to measure up to any kind of standard is the same as saying that we are not allowed to self judge our own worth, and must instead be under the towering judgement of others.

And yes, it does seem more like men are subject to this than women.

You would never see an article here saying "Women must be a certain way, love must be earned."

It's the "love must be earned" stuff that really bothers me.

Are you blind or something? Dude, guys get to get away with so much... starting with the beer gut and ending with a uni-brow.
You know what they call a disagreeable women? A bitch. Male? Alpha.
Women likes sex? She is a whore. A guy likes sex? He is a stud.

You want to complain about gender equality? Donate 10% of your earnings to charity and shave your legs every 2 days.

Oh, and lets not forget about the fact only hot girls are allowed to get away with introversion. If you are ugly, female and introverted then you are about as noticeable as a fly on the wall.

I can't believe you are complaining about have to be more sociable when women can't walk the streets at night in most areas of the globe.

There is a prayer that Jewish men are supposed to say in the mornings: ברוך שלא עשני אישה or in English "Blessed is he for not making me female".

I'd give all that up for being able to blame all my problems on the other gender, like you seem to be getting at with this post.

KaiusCormere:

Ophenix:
(This one is my faiv, its like a QQ to God asking him to patch society)

Whatever dude. I don't like society, yeah. Why should I?

No one is claiming you gotta like society. That's obvious, you're entitled to your own opinions.

What you and people like you forget, however, is your entitlement ends at your own opinion. Others are not required to kowtow or otherwise bend over backwards just because you have an opinion, valid or not. In fact, if your opinion is an affront to them or their opinions, they have every right to go 'Eh, fuck off' or whatever, and walk away.

In this case, you hold the opinion that society sucks. Good for you. More importantly, you act on your opinion, which says great things about your conviction. The thing is though, 'society' is really a euphamism for 'other people' when people say they hate it. 'Society sucks' is dehumanizing it so you don't feel bad when you really mean 'Other people suck.'

So, while you're claiming society sucks, and it's their fault for... whatever... you're actually saying 'Other People Suck' and that girl you want to date? She's 'Other People.' You're acting on your 'other people suck' agenda, and she's getting the message loud and fuckin' clear, dude.

Now, let's say some girl you don't know walks up to you, and says 'Man, I don't like people like you.' Are you going to want to fuck her? OF COURSE NOT! But when you project this anti-social, blame everyone else, mentality, that's exactly what YOU are doing, and the people you talk to, particularily of the softer, better smelling, female variety... aren't going to put up with that shit in a boyfriend. Unless they're the sorts of females who go for abusers.

Which... is exactly the sort of girl you claim you don't want.

And all of this, is your own doing. Hold true to your opinion if you like, but understand that while you're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to positive consequences.

Cephei Mordred:
Problem is, having to measure up to any kind of standard is the same as saying that we are not allowed to self judge our own worth, and must instead be under the towering judgement of others.

You're being concidered as dating material. At some point, you are going to be under the judgement of another. If some woman wants to ask you out, and she completely annoys you for some reason, you're just not attracted to her... do you think her sense of self-worth matters? Of course not. You're not attracted.

Because when you're trying to date someone, they are going to have to make a judgement at some point. You will also have to make a judgement. Can we not fucking pretend that this does not happen?

Fucking self-delusional... ugh.

And yes, it does seem more like men are subject to this than women.

Bullocks. Every time a man or woman asks out a woman or man, both people make judgements.

You would never see an article here saying "Women must be a certain way, love must be earned."

The article doesn't say women OR men must be a certain way. It says that they must find their own way, that does not rely solely on a single baseline quality.

And no, that statement has nothing to do with love having to be earned. Because it must be earned. Lust is easy. Infatuation is easy. Love, actual long lasting 'Oh look, gramma and grampa have been together for 50 years and are crazy for each other' kind of love is fucking hard fought.

It's the "love must be earned" stuff that really bothers me.

Too bad, because that's how reality works.

Fact is, if you try to convince me that you want unconditional love, then you must be prepared to prove you are capable of unconditional love.

Cephei Mordred:
I'd give all that up for being able to blame all my problems on the other gender, like you seem to be getting at with this post.

....he's kinda gay, dude. He's used to men's bullshit, and probably has done some men's bullshit on his own. I'm kinda appreciating his perspective in this cause it has nothing to do with blaming women for men's bullshit.

Blah blah blah.

Look, I agree entirely that nobody is entitled to a relationship. Therefore Nice Guy(tm)s are entitled little fucks who need to gtfo.

What I don't agree with is "be awesome or gtfo, love must be earned." Yeah, you're gonna say I'm repeating myself, but your assertions do not entail a refutation, especially with the superior, overbearing tone you're taking, like I'm somehow the stupidest motherfucker on the face of the earth to not believe my human worth is solely at the discretion of others.

After all, if love must be earned, what else must be earned in life?

Also, I believe in equality. REAL equality, not this 'men are morally inferior to women' bullshit he was spouting. Blaming an entire gender for things is bigoted and therefore wrong.

All bigotry, of any kind, for any reason, is wrong and therefore must be rejected by all men of good will.

Just had to come back and add another opinion, that is to say - we need another term for what we're all calling a Nice Guy. It's a bit of a misnomer and it can lead to confusion in people that aren't reading hard enough.

Also, it's kinda gender specific. Calling these people Nice Guys only makes it seem like it's exclusively men that are to blame, and that's only going to either piss people off or galvanise the misandrist movement. You don't want to do either of those things.

I suggest the word 'Simp.' As in someone who 'simps' around the opposite sex, hanging around and playing the friend while they secretly have ulterior motives.

Like, "John simped around Jane hoping that she'd eventually sleep with him."

It sounds like what it is. Disgusting, passive and sluglike - just like an internet Nice Guy.

Owyn_Merrilin:

upgray3dd:
When both sides seem to genuinely see themselves as a victim, it seems like something is going on that no one is getting.

How about this: Nice guy becomes friends with a girl. She starts asking him for favors because he is so nice, he agrees. She starts thinking of him as more and more nice, and he starts falling in love with her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and just asks him to do more stuff for her. He becomes resentful of doing all of the stuff for her (but he doesn't tell her). She is (naturally) oblivious, and when he gets sick of it and snaps she thinks it is coming out of nowhere. Both people become bitter and are convinced that the other was secretly a jerk all along

The problem is with him, but he isn't some kind of Cartoonish evil manipulator. Does that seem reasonable, or am I just completely off-base?

Not only does it sound reasonable, it's the truth. The person I'm about to quote put it best:

Spirit356:
You know it seems that recently there has been a massive backlash against 'Nice Guys' and while I do think this is appropriate in some respects I have to argue that for a lot of guys being the 'Nice Guy' is the only thing thing that they believe will bring them close to the chance of a relationship.

Lets look at an example of the 'Nice Guy', he's most likely between the ages of 15-25, is not the best or worst looking guy in the bunch, doesn't have any real hobbies/interests/sports except for playing games/spending time on the internet. Now for most guys in this age group the only advice they typically get about meeting girls is from other guys (Which btw is a horrible source of information for this type of thing) or media (Which is somehow even worse). These are the guys who have been brought up thinking that the dating process is basically an algorithm. 'Oh yeah dude learn how to play guitar, chicks love musicians.' 'The babes love the guns brah.' It basically becomes 'Do x to get y' (With y always being of course a mate)

So lets look at our example guy. He's average in pretty much everyway, he has no discernible talents whatsoever he can show off to attract a mate, his physique is not astounding in any way whatsoever so what is this young man to do? Well he'll be nice, because in TV/Movies/Books etc nice guys always get the girl after she eventually learns that the other guys are all jerks and he's truly the special one for her. We're that generation. Stupid as it may be we've been brought up to think that by following the pattern (Entering the cheat code) we're guaranteed success.

Really when I look at it from that perspective I see 'Nice Guys' less as the Machiavellian orchestrators and more naive confused young men stuck on level one of the game of love and really, shouldn't we be giving these guys a hint?

Nice Guys (TM) are inexperienced at dating, and they don't realize that chick flicks are just the female version of video games; fantasies, a "wouldn't it be nice if..." world of make believe. The whole thing with a girl eventually realizing that the guy who's always been there for her is the one for here? Yeah, that's an escapist fantasy for people who know that the world doesn't really work like that. The problem is that those of us who grew up on movies like that wouldn't know the world isn't like that unless we had first hand experience -- which the nice guys (TM) severely lack. We need to be building up these guys and teaching them where they're going wrong, not debasing them as assholes. Otherwise, they run a serious risk of growing up to be bitter old coots who die alone. Case in point:

not_you:
Eh, I know I'm a nice guy, not a self-entitled over-expectant shit... (the trade-marked "nice guy")....

I've been told "one day" someone will recognise that, but until such time.... Their loss, no-one really knows how "nice" or "caring" I can be, maybe because of years of living in solitude, ignoring almost anything to do with anyone of importance...

I know it sounds like I'm a little "up myself" but, fuck it, no-one cares... The day someone does, then I might pretend they actually exist...

MasochisticAvenger:
"but if you're ever going to find love, the kind that changes your life and makes you the man you were meant to be"

That's right, guys. If you don't go out and find love you're not the man you were "meant to be". It doesn't matter if you're not interested in love... that just means you are a worthless human being because apparently you're only worth a damn if you have someone who loves you.

I'm sorry that was probably a bit harsh, but that line really rubbed me the wrong way. I am someone who isn't really interested in love, relationships and all that crap, so does that make me less of a man in your eyes?

To both of you: I'm sorry, but you sound /incredibly/ bitter. These are the words of a person who has been rejected so many times that he has not only given up, but become actively angry at the world. And yeah, if you die with absolutely nobody left to mourn you, short of being the last person on the planet, that does suggest you're somewhat worthless as a person. There's a reason the Ghost of Christmas Future showed Scrooge all the people who would be happy at his death if he didn't change his ways.

P.S.: Even if you legitimately don't have a mating urge (which is unlikely; please don't get me started on "asexuals"), you should have some sort of urge to enjoy fraternal relationships. Humans are social creatures; not being interested in so much as friendship goes beyond being anti-social, and into sociopathic territory. You can't expect people to pay attention to you before you show them respect, either. Respect has to be earned, yes, but it's a two way street; if you refuse to show so much as basic human decency, nobody is ever going to show you any respect.

I'm that bitter, and no I was never rejected because I've never put myself into that posistion. I don't see the point of these relationships anyway. It sounds like a lot of work, with only very very slim odds of any kind of desired results, and very high odds of experiencing unecessary pain. To be honest I prefer being alone anyway.

Cephei Mordred:
Blah blah blah.

Look, I agree entirely that nobody is entitled to a relationship. Therefore Nice Guy(tm)s are entitled little fucks who need to gtfo.

What I don't agree with is "be awesome or gtfo, love must be earned." Yeah, you're gonna say I'm repeating myself, but your assertions do not entail a refutation, especially with the superior, overbearing tone you're taking, like I'm somehow the stupidest motherfucker on the face of the earth to not believe my human worth is solely at the discretion of others.

You're hyperbolizing the point. Your self-worth is not at the discretion of others. Obviously. However, your worth as dating material is. Dating, love, romance, whatever you want to call it, is a decision made by more than one person. You can't have 'more than one person' without other people.

It's called 'mate selection'. Humans are like every other animal--females and males have criteria they use to select mates. Love is an eventual product of mate selection. It doesn't matter if it seems unfair, that's how reality is. But the catch is; it's set up to be totally fair!

"Be awesome" is great advice. If you can't be awesome in some way, the only reason is because you're lying to yourself. Everyone is awesome in some way. And in every way someone can be awesome, there's other people who agree with how awesome it is. Women love awesome guys. Guys love awesome women. And it can be the dumbest shit too. It doesn't matter if a lot of people think, as an example, nothing of your ability to know every Transformer from the 80's cartoon does, and the name of their voice actor.

Some women out there will believe that is so totally awesome and oh god please can they have your babies! This is the entire biological principle that gets geeks laid! And geeks DO GET LAID.

But the thing is? Love MUST be earned. Being awesome is the means to maximize your chance to earn love. As for unconditional love... that is even harder to earn. I put forth the idea that if you're unwilling to earn love, then you do not unconditionally love them. Real love involves work and sacrifice. Expecting unconditional love without work or sacrifice means you just want lazy love, not unconditional love.

After all, if love must be earned, what else must be earned in life?

Everything.

Also, I believe in equality. REAL equality, not this 'men are morally inferior to women' bullshit he was spouting. Blaming an entire gender for things is bigoted and therefore wrong.

Cephei Mordred:
And yes, it does seem more like men are subject to this than women.

Pot and kettle, man. You're the one who brought up gender inequality. He just called BS on it.

gallaetha_matt:
Just had to come back and add another opinion, that is to say - we need another term for what we're all calling a Nice Guy. It's a bit of a misnomer and it can lead to confusion in people that aren't reading hard enough.

When I graduated high school, my clique used to call it 'Bitter Virgin Syndrome.' If they weren't a virgin, it was 'Born-again Virgin Syndrome.'

archvile93:
I'm that bitter, and no I was never rejected because I've never put myself into that posistion. I don't see the point of these relationships anyway. It sounds like a lot of work, with only very very slim odds of any kind of desired results, and very high odds of experiencing unecessary pain. To be honest I prefer being alone anyway.

There was this one time I had to wake up at 5am to go to work. My girlfriend (who lived a couple hours out of time) was visiting and crashing, so she slept beside me. Very very nice, warm, comfortable sleep. No need for heaters, or blankets, just arms and the nice scent of a woman.

My alarm was set for 4 in the morning, and it was the most annoying thing on the planet. Alarms always make me wake up miserable. So, she decided it was a great idea to wake herself up quietly, go to the kitchen and put on a pot of coffee, and then half an hour early, wake me up with kisses and very gentle nudging that only a soft warm lover can provide.

Yes, the relationship ended. Yes, there was pain. But in the end, I have memories like that from my relationships, memories of awesome women doing awesome things that reminded me how awesome this world is.

Trust me, that one morning trumps any argument about how I -might- feel pain.

DracoSuave:
snip

Tell me something.

Were you born lacking empathy, or did you learn to be that way?

You are quite entitled to your opinions, but they all seemed to be predicated on the simple principle of "I'm awesome, if you aren't you deserve to die forever alone, lol sucks to be you!"

If you really feel that way, fine, but please have the intellectual honesty to know that's what it is.

Cephei Mordred:

DracoSuave:
snip

Far from it.

I believe everyone has the capacity to be awesome, but when people aren't awesome, it's because they don't see what they do or what they are to be of value. Being awesome is about embracing yourself, and who you really are.

Thing is, being awesome is SO subjective, and has such a broad definition that the only way people can fail to fill it is by choice. Choosing not to be awesome is a problem of self-worth, and I'm not going to lie to them and say 'Hey, look guy, don't worry if you're not awesome, someone will find you.' Sometimes, empathy means telling the hard truth when the problem is a failure to face the truth.

Fact is, nature's not fair. It doesn't matter one bit if I am empathetic or not; natural selection is going to take place. Mates are going to select mates. People will judge each other before they let their genitals touch. This is how the universe IS. Bitching and moaning about what's right and what's fair will NEVER change these fundamental truths.

You have to earn good things, one way or another. Instead of bitching that you have to work for love, why don't you, instead, realize there's an endless number of ways TO earn love, and that one of those ways is effective and perfect for you, and then go do that?

gallaetha_matt:
Just had to come back and add another opinion, that is to say - we need another term for what we're all calling a Nice Guy. It's a bit of a misnomer and it can lead to confusion in people that aren't reading hard enough.

There's already a word for that in English: a wimp. "Symp" is also good, and it's already in use colloqually.

Oh, and this article is 100% WingedIncubus approved, except that this time it's a woman speaking the truth. It's harsh, but it's a reality check.

Of course, saying to a bunch of nerds, geeks, and otherwise shy people hiding behind the "social anxiety" tag here that "nice guys suck" is like promoting atheism to a bunch of fundies inside their own church, or going around a Occupy Wall Street rally dressed in power suit to yell at them with a microphone to get washed and find a job. It won't win her a lot of friends.

In the end of the day, "being yourself" is being yourself at your best. It's showing that you see yourself as worthy, and that you project the best qualities in you. Nice isn't one of them, it's the bare mininum for social decency, everyone's nice with someone. However, dating is a marketing's game, you have to be able to find your market, sell your goods, and find buyers.

Everyone's got some good points to sell for someone. Even the dweebiest, most shy of nerds has a girl attracted to him within his close range of people he encounters, even though chances are she won't be a ten or a swimsuit model. But she might be cute, she might be attractive in her own right. But if all you see in your dating radar it's the hawt ones and you can't compete with those hotshots who have a better shot at her than you do, then it's your expectations that are too high.

You know what this is making me think of?


The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys™" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Yes, SOME are manipulative people (not very good ones, there are better ways I'm sure), but most are just people with some serious issues with confidence and want this validation, but the only way they know how to get it is to "be there for her" etc. and unload their problems because that's what they feel they need.

As you may be able to tell, I've been there, not as a "Nice Guy™", I try not to manipulate people to such a degree, but as a genuine nice guy with low confidence. While it may come across as pressuring people into a relationship/sex, what I really wanted was help and I tended to feel close and trusting towards those I liked.

Now, while I still suffer from low confidence, I now have to social skills to prevent these tendencies and embarrassing myself.

One thing I will agree with, saying "He was nice" IS damning someone with faint praise, it happens to me a lot sadly, I don't have many talents or much to make me stick out. So I just keep going, even if I don't see worth in myself, someone else could and I;d give the same advice to any genuine nice guy with low confidence.

J-meMalone:
You know what this is making me think of?


The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys™" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Yes, SOME are manipulative people (not very good ones, there are better ways I'm sure), but most are just people with some serious issues with confidence and want this validation, but the only way they know how to get it is to "be there for her" etc. and unload their problems because that's what they feel they need.

As you may be able to tell, I've been there, not as a "Nice Guy™", I try not to manipulate people to such a degree, but as a genuine nice guy with low confidence. While it may come across as pressuring people into a relationship/sex, what I really wanted was help and I tended to feel close and trusting towards those I liked.

Now, while I still suffer from low confidence, I now have to social skills to prevent these tendencies and embarrassing myself.

One thing I will agree with, saying "He was nice" IS damning someone with faint praise, it happens to me a lot sadly, I don't have many talents or much to make me stick out. So I just keep going, even if I don't see worth in myself, someone else could and I;d give the same advice to any genuine nice guy with low confidence.

I propose we end this thread with these words, seeing how it all just ends up in perpetual flamewar.

J-meMalone:

The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys™" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy. When the main qualitative of a guy by other girls that he is "nice", it means he has no spark that drives women attracted. Even something like "this guy is an asshole" or "he can be such a brat sometimes" is better than "being nice". At least she's qualifying you with something.

People who brag about being nice, is like ice cream bragging about being plain vanilla. It's the bare minimum, but it's plain nonetheless.

It's simple, really. Within seconds girls and women KNOW whether they'd be opening the door to date you or not, and next to nothing will change that unless she's put you in the maybe category and you say something or show a glimpse of something that attracts her.

Ophenix:

AquaAscension:
Where did this "be a supernova" thing come from?

A lot of posts here were saying how bitchy girls are to blame for Nice Guy™ insecurities, how women can be introverted but a guy has to change otherwise he is a bastard and other nonsense like that.
There is a common belief that Nice Guys™ are just insecure and are doing their best because of it... Well, you want to get ride of your insecurities? Become a Supernova.

I know it sounds stupid and ridicules and over the top and irrelevant. It isn't...
We are all bashful gamers but while some of us hide behind our insecurities some of us fight them. "Nice" isn't a trait to flaunt, nice should be the norm and you should have enough personality traits and life experience to be more than just nice, and if you aren't than you should start now.

You didn't answer my question. You answered the question you thought I asked.

I AM a Supernova. Poet, martial artist, musician, writer, and, yes, pretty cool/nice guy. My personality isn't defined by my niceness, it's refined by it. It's the icing on top of my six pack. It's chocolate sauce on the Sunday of my fingertips as they blaze across the fret board. It's the mother f***in' cherry on top of the shake that is my poetry.

What I asked is "what the hell is a supernova?" As a poet, as a writer, as a person, Supernova means nothing to me because I literally do not know what it means. Hold on, let me check wikipedia and see if I can come up with an answer.

*Checks wikipedia*

Supernovae are extremely luminous and cause a burst of radiation that often briefly outshines an entire galaxy, before fading from view over several weeks or months. During this short interval a supernova can radiate as much energy as the Sun is expected to emit over its entire life span.

Ahhh okay, so saying, "Be a supernova" is a little akin to Katy Perry's Firework song? "Come on let your colors burst"? Shine bright, show who you are. I do that. But I fucking hate that analogy. In my opinion, it's asking people to burst brightly but violently. Oh, and once you do that, you can't go back to shining. It's trading beauty for evanescence. But I guess the truth of telling people to simply be themselves, shine with their own light without the implication of burning out afterward is simply not poetic. Enough. Why must our light be ephemeral?

However, on thinking... our light has to be ephemeral because we were born. Because we are alive. Sometimes I get angry (or I would were I a character in a play) at my mother. I get angry because the reason I'll die is that I was born. And we can't go back into darkness. As much as there may be comfort in that idea, this life was not given for us to not live in it.

I would have liked the metaphor more if there were a more powerful reason to "be a Supernova." See, what she should have said, what she should have implored us to do was find what gives us the energy to shine. For me, it is music, teaching, poetry, thinking, speaking, slam, so... many things that I adore doing. And since she didn't, I'll now at least implore myself to continue following what I love to do, use that love and passion as fuel for my eventual transformation into a Supernova state, and here's why:

Furthermore, the expanding shock waves from supernova explosions can trigger the formation of new stars.

Because being the being of light that I am, though I was born into darkness and ignorance I want to leave this world brighter. I want to trigger someone else to shine simply because they want to emulate the energy that I am made of. I don't want to be a supernova simply to get a girl because relationships break, entropy is our mistress; I want to be a supernova to add my energy to something, to give back, to create more light.

Make sense?

WingedIncubus:

J-meMalone:

The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys™" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy. When the main qualitative of a guy by other girls that he is "nice", it means he has no spark that drives women attracted. Even something like "this guy is an asshole" or "he can be such a brat sometimes" is better than "being nice". At least she's qualifying you with something.

People who brag about being nice, is like ice cream bragging about being plain vanilla. It's the bare minimum, but it's plain nonetheless.

It's simple, really. Within seconds girls and women KNOW whether they'd be opening the door to date you or not, and next to nothing will change that unless she's put you in the maybe category and you say something or show a glimpse of something that attracts her.

I actually agree with you here, nice is NOT a good thing on it's on, hence why I later mentioned agreeing that it's damning with faint praise. However no one person sees the world and people the same way. What's "just nice" to one girl may be amazing to another. There is no perfect man or woman because perfect means different things to different people.

Basically what I'm trying to say is what qualifies someone as "just nice" is different to different people and while the nice guy may come across boring to many, the probability is he will still meet many who see him more that "just nice."

Kahunaburger:

Kopikatsu:

Methe:
I suspect that everyone agreeing that nice guys finish last (without any caveats) are still teenagers. No offence to anyone who isn't.

...That's kind of the point. Nice guys don't 'win' (Not that women are a prize to be won) until mid-life when women start looking to settle down. Which, yes, means that they finish last. It's the assholes who attract all of the girls/women at the earlier stages of life.

Oh, that's what it was referring to. I always thought "nice guys finish last, assholes finish first" was about premature ejaculation.

(Although in all seriousness, I don't really buy that dickishness is attractive to young people, and friendliness is only attractive to older people.)

Yeah, it's definitely not. People are people, and people are different.

PS I'm not mid-life, I'm just not a teenager :P

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