The Big Picture: Favorite Ms. Take - Part 1

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You know it seems to be that with the right re-tooling, Ms. Marvel could really be Marvel's answer to Wonder Woman... or even Superman. I've never even read a comic with her in it and I know who she is and parts of her back story. She's got a unique look, mainstream powers, and her name is Ms. Marvel!

You could make her the Superman of Marvel. Make her tough, and even if she isn't a natural leader like Captain America she can, thanks to so many heroes knowing her, be the rallying cry that unites them. I think it's a direction worth looking at.

The Gentleman:
Actually, by contemporary definitions, that was technically not rape. Before you flame me, allow me to explain:

As many here are fairly aware, rape in and of itself is one of the newer violent crimes established in western traditions. As such, what defined rape was very limited to violent forcible penetration without consent. The stereotype rapist were pretty much the only ones targeted by this definition. Many jurisdictions even required a resistance by the victim in order to establish force. As such, intercourse by coercion or deception were legal in many jurisdictions up until the 1990s when many reexamined the laws and amended them to include such tactics.

Rape does not have to be violent. If you drugged a woman (alcohol counts) and slept with her, it can, has, will, and SHOULD be considered rape. The examples you mentioned involved the women making a "choice", but if the victim's mind is altered (like Ms. Marvel's was with mind control) then, yes, it is unwilling sex upon a woman not in her proper state of mind to make rational decisions.

I know this story and I know this story well. Bob is going to bring up what happened to Ms. Marvel in his next episode, I wager. Spoiler: she was PISSED. She returned angry and upset, claiming she was mind controlled into everything and none of her friends questioned it or tried to stop her. Her friends failed her and let her be used, mentally and physically.

That is rape.

I don't often speak out on that, but I've been the victim of such actions myself. I HATE saying it, but, yes, I was raped once. It was miserable. Terrible. It left mental scars I carry with me to this day and it continues to affect every relationship I have and every act of love I do.

As a lover of comics, however, I continue to be disappointed with how women were, and still are, portrayed. Earlier this year, a woman was booed at Comic Con for asking the male-dominated leaders of DC Comics to have more prominent female heroes and to give them more respect. What the hell, people?

I played a game with my fiance; could we name a single female heroine that has not 1) been killed, 2) depowered, 3) raped, 4) been shoe-horned into a marriage, or 5) gotten pregnant.

... We were only able to name ONE (love ya, Squirrel Girl). From Wonder Woman to She-Hulk to Ms. Marvel to Scarlet Witch to Jean Grey to Batgirl to Storm to Black Canary to Power Girl to practically every other female character...

It's okay to break Batman's back; he'll get better. Batgirl gets shot, she's paralyzed for life. It would not be okay to turn Captain America into a sleazy, sex-crazed man-bimbo, but it's okay to do that to Starfire. It's not okay to RAPE Spider-man, but so many female heroines have been to the point that it's sickening. It's not okay to kill Alfred and stuff his body into a refrigerator, but, screw it, let's do that to Green Lantern's girlfriend.

I want to enjoy comics. As a girl, and a rape victim, I need empowering heroines in my life. Neither Marvel nor DC really seem to understand that and continue to write sexist comics almost exclusively for horny young boys. The new Catwoman comic spent 2 whole pages focusing on her boobs and butt before we even bothered to see her FACE. Can you imagine a Batman comic where two whole pages (of a 20 page comic) are spent on Batman's crotch and ass?

*breathes* Okay. Rant over people. See you next week, Bob.

Zachary Amaranth:

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:

1. Goddamnit, Bob, your show is called "The Big Picture". TALK ABOUT BIG PICTURE STUFF.

It's only a name. Not to mention, more a play on his "moviebob" title. Besides, he laid out his aim at the beginning of the series, and this isn't out of line. If you think it is, the problem isn't him.

Did you even read my whole post? I said a comics episode every now and then is fine, I don't have a problem with the concept. I'm just saying it would be NICE if he didn't do them quite as often. Because I personally don't find them interesting, but I DO find the episodes about complex issues interesting. My opinion of this episode and the show reflect this. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And how is "The Big Picture" a play on "Moviebob"? The only thing I can thing of is calling movies "big pictures" but that doesn't make any sense as he's not talking about movies.

I don't think there's anything too problematic about the idea of impregnation -> birth -> resumed relationship accomplished without the use of mind-control etc.

Trishbot:
That is rape.

I know it was, and I did not react well to the notion that this story existed at all, although I suspect the writer was attempting to parallel some of the really fucked-up Greek god myths in the process. My point was that rape as defined in court as late as 1990 probably would have not sided with her. The utter disrespect for women's rights was not just a comic thing, it was a cultural thing. It was and still is extremely depressing.

On a side note, Oracle's a more interesting character in relation to overcoming her paraplegia and using brains rather than brawn to borderline command pretty much all the local vigilantes in Gotham. Probably the best story involving her was No Mans Land, where she creates a massive spy network to monitor the city while Batman attempts and fails to retake portions of the city.

Does Not Care For Sexual Assualt

I think I've made my point.

Well, okay maybe I'll elaborate. The whole Breaking Dawn-esque hyper gestation and birthing the father would have been really weird, but not nearly as horrific if it wasn't made pretty clear that Ms. Marvel was essentially brainwashed and bent-reality raped to do it. Could the guy have simply brought her to his world and seduced her like any normal guy? Nope, its rape time. And what's worse is that Ms. Marvel found that romantic.

I agree with what the one guy said before. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:
OK, couple of things about this video:

1. Goddamnit, Bob, your show is called "The Big Picture". TALK ABOUT BIG PICTURE STUFF. I mean, a comics episode is fine every now and then, but come on! The only reason it's been so long since you did a comics episode is that you spent the whole month of October talking about bad sci-fi movies, which is BASICALLY THE SAME GODDAMN THING. Please, just...Talk about things that actually matter more often. You're good at it.

2. I swear if I hear that motherfucking "COMICS ARE WEIRD" bit ONE MORE TIME I WILL probably just press the mute button like I did in this video. Seriously though, please stop. It's really annoying.

No way!

I love the "COMICS ARE WEIRD" episodes, they're some of my favorites.

And, in this video as well as others like it, he did talk about a big picture topic, in this case sexism and the way women are portrayed in media. Granted, he spent A LOT of time talking about the comic plot itself, but I imagine that since this one is a two-parter, he'll hit more on sexism and misogyny and "the big picture" next week.

Aiddon:
ummm.....ew. I knew comics could be pretty sexist, but this takes the cake

I've commented on this before, and even referanced that very same article in response to a number of arguements. Mainly in regards to why Ms. Marvel is a character that carries too much baggage to really be used in the general media.

What Bob seems to miss here is that this is a divisive issue. On one hand you have the whole outcry about sexism, on the other hand you have the whole aspect of this being a politically correct witch hunt by liberals and feminists looking for a fight, especially when you consider when a lot of this actually went down. Meaning among fans a lot of hard feelings get involved.

To put things bluntly this isn't the first illusion/seduction thing in the history of comics. What's more the whole gimmick of someone being made to forget they have offspring after being made to conceive a child, or just donate DNA or whatever is hardly new.

In general it's considered to be generally acceptable if some girl uses mind control to influance and use a guy, even if they run off to have their anti-christ baby in another dimension where time flows differantly or whatever, but it's a taboo when this is done to a girl. Truthfully the whole bit with Ms. Marvel being somewhat cool with it is that she wasn't mesmerized ala Dracula (which is another good example of this, why isn't there any outcry over all the vampires hypnotising girls for sex, blood, and murder?) she was taken to an illusion world where she sort of fell in love with the guy... and well, we've seen that kind of thing before also, and needless to say she had some odd feelings about that. Villains like The Enchantress, The Black Queen (with Gambit), and The White Queen (as a villain) all have some pretty odd pasts here that nobody seems to get irritated by. People might remember that "The Hellfire Club" is a BDSM club which practiced mind control, what they did to people who fell prey to it was largely going on behind the scenes, but rape and erotic torture are pretty much on the menu. This is one of the reasons why people have such... mixed opinions of Emma Frost especially seeing as she was their psychic. Overall you have to wonder how many super heroes she raped between panels over the years, and yet nobody seems to comment on how this gets shrugged off other than general mistrust of "you were a villain".

The point is that the whole thing with Ms. Marvel is no big deal in the overall scheme of evil offspring amnesia, illusion and mind control seduction and rape, and other things. It's actually pretty typical.

Truthfully the dual standard is also made rather clear when they did this really odius storyline about an Avengers character called "Starfox" who is basically supposed to be Eros, the god of male sexuality. His powers make him pretty much irresistable to women, and he has a "feelgood" power that well... makes someone feel good (use your imagination and reed between the lines). To make a long story short he was put on trial as a rapist pretty much because his very nature made him irresistable and thus a rapist since women tended to be drawn to him, he was engaging in a form of like subconcious mind control. The guy was pretty much shamed as a rapist and wound up exilng himself. It's been a long time but that's the gist of it.

Comics sexist? Perhaps, but generally in regards to men when you get down to it. In general you tend to have plenty of both guys and girls who remain supporting characters on the sideline or exist to be rescued and maybe do something cool once in a while. People like to focus on the "impotent girlfriend of the super hero" while totally forgetting about how say "Rick Jones" rolled for a long time, where he was pretty much the kid who needed to be rescued accross a number of titles. There is a bit more parity here than people seem to think, even if the girls do come out somewhat ahead in that regard. That said when it comes to the major female characters they can do all kinds of things that male characters generally can't do without there being a major point made about it. People talk about how sexy the female characters are in many cases and claim it's misogynistic male fantasy, but understand that they generally wind up controlling sex and taking the lead here as often as not. When it comes to the guys they have to remain fairly subdued for the most part, and with rare exception when they aren't (like Starfox) someone jumps out to start slamming the character around left and right for being politically incorrect. You'll notice that the "playboy" lifestyle of someone like Tony Stark (which has itself been toned down especially recently it seems) is generally not portrayed as being a positive feature. If a girl is sexy, loose, and availible it's okay if she's taking the lead, but if you have a guy acting the same way and succeeding with it... well that's suddenly bad and sexist.

In short there is a whole other side to this that can be argued back and forth without resolution. The very fact that Ms. Marvel is fairly well known to those into comics and this is a fairly famous situation as such things go, is one of the reasons why she's tarnished through being a focus of the entire arguement to the point where I doubt she'll ever be used in any big way in the media outside of comics. Even if most theater goers/TV watchers didn't know this to begin with, they would probably find out about it shortly afterwards when people started learning more about the character and it's history.

What a perfect cliffhanger.

image

This story reminds me of "the pregnancy of Power GIRL".

It seems that during the 1994 Zero Hour event, Power Girl experiences a "mystical pregnancy " and gives birth to a son (supposedly named Equinox), who ages rapidly. Finally he disappears; Except for Batman BATB, Equinox has never been mentioned again in DCU.

Oh god, I remember the storyline. Well, reading about the storyline, not actually reading the comic itself.
Yeah, pretty messed up and complicated, but certainly not the only complicated part of Ms. Marvel's life. Definitely the most messed up though.

I'm glad to see an episode about her, she's one of my favorite Marvel Superheroes, though that's mostly due to how she's been represented in more recent years.

I look forward to the next week's video.

Not that comics have a particularly good track record handling the reverse situation. "Men can't be raped" or "even if you were raped it was still cheating" aren't very progressive viewpoints either.

Frostbite3789:
Gah! Garth Marenghi! Awesome!

Dark place dark place dark place dark place dark place dark dark place dark place dark dark dark plaaaaaaaaaaace!

Amazing series, easily one of the best comedies channel 4 have had in a loooooooooong time.

I love Ms. Marvel but she was too bland a character at that point, so all it takes is 1 story(which is usually rape) to mess up that character for years to come. No matter what happens to her from then on "The Rape of Ms.Marvel" is always her biggest thing. Funny part is that it was made a mind control rape situation to make it less weird.

Batman(vaguely), Nightwing, and countless other comic characters have had stupid rape stories but had strong enough stories to not be defined by it.

I first found this out on that Comicvine site when looking through character bios and history... Yeah this was Fd up and wonder how it got through publish without some one higher up axing it...

Trishbot:

The Gentleman:
Actually, by contemporary definitions, that was technically not rape. Before you flame me, allow me to explain:

As many here are fairly aware, rape in and of itself is one of the newer violent crimes established in western traditions. As such, what defined rape was very limited to violent forcible penetration without consent. The stereotype rapist were pretty much the only ones targeted by this definition. Many jurisdictions even required a resistance by the victim in order to establish force. As such, intercourse by coercion or deception were legal in many jurisdictions up until the 1990s when many reexamined the laws and amended them to include such tactics.

Rape does not have to be violent. If you drugged a woman (alcohol counts) and slept with her, it can, has, will, and SHOULD be considered rape. The examples you mentioned involved the women making a "choice", but if the victim's mind is altered (like Ms. Marvel's was with mind control) then, yes, it is unwilling sex upon a woman not in her proper state of mind to make rational decisions.

I know this story and I know this story well. Bob is going to bring up what happened to Ms. Marvel in his next episode, I wager. Spoiler: she was PISSED. She returned angry and upset, claiming she was mind controlled into everything and none of her friends questioned it or tried to stop her. Her friends failed her and let her be used, mentally and physically.

That is rape.

The original poster was saying that it wasn't rape back when the law didn't say that coercion was a means of rape. Remember, rape is most technically a legal term, like insanity, which means its definition can be changed at any time. Rape is a tricky thing. For example, in my native Georgia, the consumption of alcohol unto intoxication meakes one incapable of giving legal consent. Also, rape in Georgia is defined as the non-consentual entry of the penis into an orifice. You know what this means? If a man and woman meet at a bar, get drunk, go home, and have sex...

He raped her. But she didn't rape him.

I find that outrageous, but I concede that in the end the law exists to try to bring order and justice to something that's happening in a dark bedroom every single night where the only difference between legal and illegal is the mindset of one of the participants. Rape is an awful crime and should be fought from every angle possible, but it's also a complicated situation that, realistically speaking, we're just not capable of obliterating.

As a lover of comics, however, I continue to be disappointed with how women were, and still are, portrayed. Earlier this year, a woman was booed at Comic Con for asking the male-dominated leaders of DC Comics to have more prominent female heroes and to give them more respect. What the hell, people?

I played a game with my fiance; could we name a single female heroine that has not 1) been killed, 2) depowered, 3) raped, 4) been shoe-horned into a marriage, or 5) gotten pregnant.

... We were only able to name ONE (love ya, Squirrel Girl). From Wonder Woman to She-Hulk to Ms. Marvel to Scarlet Witch to Jean Grey to Batgirl to Storm to Black Canary to Power Girl to practically every other female character...

It's okay to break Batman's back; he'll get better. Batgirl gets shot, she's paralyzed for life. It would not be okay to turn Captain America into a sleazy, sex-crazed man-bimbo, but it's okay to do that to Starfire. It's not okay to RAPE Spider-man, but so many female heroines have been to the point that it's sickening. It's not okay to kill Alfred and stuff his body into a refrigerator, but, screw it, let's do that to Green Lantern's girlfriend.

I want to enjoy comics. As a girl, and a rape victim, I need empowering heroines in my life. Neither Marvel nor DC really seem to understand that and continue to write sexist comics almost exclusively for horny young boys. The new Catwoman comic spent 2 whole pages focusing on her boobs and butt before we even bothered to see her FACE. Can you imagine a Batman comic where two whole pages (of a 20 page comic) are spent on Batman's crotch and ass?

*breathes* Okay. Rant over people. See you next week, Bob.

You obviously know about Women in Refrigerators. What the website does well is tell you how many female characters have been hurt and in what ways. What it doesn't do a good job of telling you is whether men in comics are treated very differently, and they aren't. Read some of the responses on the site by writers like Peter David and Fabian Nicieza. Most long-standing heroes have suffered debilitating injuries, humiliation, or death. Superman was killed. Captain America didn't turn into a bimbo, but he was rendered paralyzed for a time. The Hulk had his neck snapped and his enemy had a woman have sex with him while he was powerless to stop her. Of course, she didn't have a penis, so it wouldn't have been rape in Georgia.

The problem we're dealing with is that you can't legitimately get mad at comic book writers for doing horrible things to women without implying that those horrible things should be reserved for men. Batman gets his back broken and that's just what happens to superheroes. Ms. Marvel gets raped and Bob calls is misogynistic. Why wasn't Batman's injury misandrist? Because his genitals were not assaulted?

I understand that it would be tough to see members of your gender seemingly singled out for abuse, but the alternative is saying they can't be hurt, that they're too important to be vulnerable to the same pains and problems that the male heroes experience and that people of all genders and types experience in real life. As for "needing empowering heroines," even if I give you that, I won't give you the right to command writers to only write stories you like. It would be absurd for me to demand that Gambit's history be retconned so he never really led a bunch of mass-murderers into a killing field, and I think it's equally absurd to say that heroes that share your gender must not have "too many" bad things happen to them.

Nightwing was raped. Nobody really talks about it much. Barbara Gordon is back in action, much to the dismay of hanicapped fans who liked reading about her in a wheelchair. When these sorts of thing happen, I think the only rational reaction should be to acknowledge that these worlds are worlds in which anything can happen, and we shouldn't be surprised, angered, or disenfranchised when they do.

Further reading on Tvropes.org:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUnfairSex
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbuseIsOkayWhenItIsFemaleOnMale
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsOkWhenItIsFemaleOnMale

DISCLAIMER: I mean no offense, I don't intend to minimize anyone's pain by removing references to the poster's rape, and I hope all discussion that may proceed from this post be civil and benevolent.

AH! "Dark Place" reference! yes! i fucking loved that mini series. jesus yes!

mrblakemiller:
info

You make a sound argument, and I feel it needs a proper response.

I absolutely don't want to imply I hold a double-standard where women should be immune to all physical or emotional harm in comics, or that men shouldn't be exposed to these same situations.

Just like my own rape doesn't mean that men can't get raped or that it is any less a terrible thing.

But, and I want to be clear on this, I do see a very very different attitude writers and fans have about treating male and female characters in comics completely differently.

I understand that women in comics will always be big-breasted, statuesque, supermodel-perfect goddess. God forbid we ever had a "normal" looking heroine with a modest build. It's the same idealized male fantasy where all the men are walking mountains of rippling biceps, washboard six-packs, and mountainous pecks.

And I do agree that, in many instances, both male and female heroes go through similar problems, be it death, paralysis, de-empowerment, or even sexual assault. But it's very telling how people react to these.

I actually DO know that Nightwing was sexually assaulted. And yet, nobody, NOBODY mentions it. Nobody at all. Not unless conversations like these pop up. People act like it didn't happen. Why? Because they don't like talking about one of their favorite male heroes being a sex assault victim. It makes them uncomfortable. Hell, it makes ME uncomfortable because Dick Grayson is my FAVORITE DC hero (and my favorite Batman. Suck it Bruce). But why are people so ashamed to talk about it? Why is it something future writers ignored? Why is it something fans ignored and don't protest? They just choose to ignore it didn't happen. As a victim, who had to undergo extensive counseling, never talking about it, never dealing with it, never coming to terms with it, is so very unhealthy. To pretend it "never happened" is unhealthy. But, in DC's world, it "never happened" and they won't talk about it.

The way Batman dealt with being handicapped after Bane and the way Barbara dealt with it were entirely different. Now, I will NEVER say that Barbara wasn't a strong character, either before or AFTER she became wheelchair-bound, but at the same time, I also find it offensive that Barbara was ONLY kept handicapped, not because it was good for her, but because it gave them some "affirmative action" with handicapped readers. As one female writer said, "it's ridiculous to think that in the DC universe, where Cyborg runs around with robot legs, where heroes die and get resurrected so often, where certain heroes have the exclusive power to heal all wounds, or even in the Batman universe exclusively, with Bruce's millions, access to all medical technology on the planet, or even access to the Lazarus Pits, that Barbara either can't get the help she needs or she CHOOSES to stay crippled."

On a tangent, the only reason Barbara was even crippled to begin with was because Alan Moore wrote the Killing Joke, originally an "alternate universe", and, as much as Alan Moore is an influential writer, I'd also peg him as one of the most misogynistic, sexist, female-mangling comic writers in HISTORY. I can barely name any of his work that doesn't involve torrid amounts of excessive abuse, mentally, physically, or sexually, against female characters. Barbara was just on his chopping block that year.

More on point, my problem with how comics treat female characters isn't that sexual assaults occur. That's not the problem. But the problem is that they happen SO OFTEN (almost exclusively to female characters), for so LITTLE REASON, and they use sex against females as a crutch for telling easy-to-think-up ways of hurting a female character.

Was there really ANY essential story reason for Sue Dibny to be raped by Dr. Light that couldn't have been done in an alternative manner? Did Jessica Jones HAVE to be sexually assaulted for nearly a year to traumatize her into giving up superhero life? Did Mockingbird need to be raped to justify her murdering a man (which upset Hawkeye)? Did Joker HAVE to strip Barbara Gordon naked after he had already shot her? Was that COMPLETELY necessary?

To quote John Byrne, he acknowledged the problem and said "there's a difference between a female heroine suffering harm because she is a HEROINE and because she is a WOMAN. When a female police officer is shot, she's shot because she is a cop, not because she is female."

The problem is just that. A story like "the Rape of Ms. Marvel" occurs, not because of her occupation, but because of her gender. That is the worst feeling in the world, to be belittled, demeaned, diminished, and hurt just because of what you are (a woman, a black man, a homosexual, etc.) The problem with female heroines, MUCH more than male heroes, is their emotional and physical pain often occurs, not because they are heroes, but because they are WOMEN.

Therein lies the key difference.

... People other than me watched Darkplace? MovieBob watched Darkplace? But this might mean that
the doors of Darkplace are open. Not the literal doors of the building, most of which were closed. But evil doors. Dark doors. Doors, to the beyond. Doors that were hard to shut because they were abstract and didn't have handles. They were more like portals really. From this day on I shall have to fight these forces of darkness, and deal with the burden of day-to-day admin.

mrblakemiller:

The problem we're dealing with is that you can't legitimately get mad at comic book writers for doing horrible things to women without implying that those horrible things should be reserved for men. Batman gets his back broken and that's just what happens to superheroes. Ms. Marvel gets raped and Bob calls is misogynistic. Why wasn't Batman's injury misandrist? Because his genitals were not assaulted?

You obviously didn't get the point. The problem isn't the existence of rape in the plot. The problem is that no one seems to be concerned about the fact that Ms. Marvel was raped, she doesn't seem to have a problem with it, and it's romanticized. That is a massive problem. Comic book writers are free to write about rape, in both "real" and fantastical forms, but when they act like it's some normal event that's just part of the plot and even romanticize it, that it ridiculous.

The reason why it's misogynistic is because it's part of a big issue with how rape victims aren't often taken seriously and hear dismissive remarks like how their clothing choice or past sexual activity means they asked for it. It may not seem related at face value due to the fantastical nature of the rape, but the fact that no one had a problem with this pervades a larger problem.

ETA: It looks like Trishbot has a better response than I do.

Wow, that IS rape!
And nobody batted an eye?! :(

On a related note, just saw Immortals based on your review and it was great!
Keep up the comics-are-weird episodes!!!

Do I see an episode on classic Doom Patrol in future? 'Cause I saw Crazy Jane there, and let's face it Doom Patrol defines "Comics are Weird" but in a good great way.

Spacefrog:
Hmm, the most Rebooted, rewritten and most reimagined of all female superheroes.
Now i always thought that title belonged to Power Girl.
This should be interesting :)

Yeah, there sure are a whole bunch of different takes on Power Girl and all the other various incarnations/alternate universe forms and whatnot of Supergirl. Ms. Marvel's been through her share of weirdness, though, plus some female versions of Captain Marvel for bonus points (with the Nextwave one as my personal favorite).

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:

Did you even read my whole post?

Yup. Still doesn't change the fact that he's not literally addressing the big picture just because his show is named that, and you were complaining that he should spend more time doing that.

It doesn't really matter that you said additional things, like how a comic episode now and again was fine. You evidently don't get what the show is about. You were not just whining about the number of comic episodes.

And all the information you needed was in what you parroted back to me. He doesn't need to address movies for "The Big Picture" to make sense. It's a play on the fact that he's "Moviebob." Nothing more is needed.

Do you also rant about how there is no extra punctuation in Extra Punctuation? Do you complain that some of the cutscenes in Unskippable are skippable? Do you feel No Right Answer is bad for occasionally giving a clear right answer? Are you burning with rage at the fact that there is no "escape" in Escape to the movies?

I hope not, but I can't be sure based on your nitpicking here.

misterprickly:
What a perfect cliffhanger.

image

This story reminds me of "the pregnancy of Power GIRL".

It seems that during the 1994 Zero Hour event, Power Girl experiences a "mystical pregnancy " and gives birth to a son (supposedly named Equinox), who ages rapidly. Finally he disappears; Except for Batman BATB, Equinox has never been mentioned again in DCU.

That was meant to be a reference to the villian Libra... but it is interesting they choose that name.

SnakeoilSage:
You know it seems to be that with the right re-tooling, Ms. Marvel could really be Marvel's answer to Wonder Woman... or even Superman. I've never even read a comic with her in it and I know who she is and parts of her back story. She's got a unique look, mainstream powers, and her name is Ms. Marvel!

You could make her the Superman of Marvel. Make her tough, and even if she isn't a natural leader like Captain America she can, thanks to so many heroes knowing her, be the rallying cry that unites them. I think it's a direction worth looking at.

She's been retooled up the wazoo, given her own series, made field leader of the New Avengers, and still neither writers nor readers care enough to take her from second string status. I don't think it's that much of a problem with the character itself just that superhero comic readers do not see female characters as focal characters.

yunabomb:

mrblakemiller:

The problem we're dealing with is that you can't legitimately get mad at comic book writers for doing horrible things to women without implying that those horrible things should be reserved for men. Batman gets his back broken and that's just what happens to superheroes. Ms. Marvel gets raped and Bob calls is misogynistic. Why wasn't Batman's injury misandrist? Because his genitals were not assaulted?

You obviously didn't get the point.

I submit to you that it's not that I didn't get the point, it's that I found the point somewhere other than where you found it. For my money, when you tell someone they've "missed the point," you're basically saying that what they got out of it is not what they should have gotten out of it, and that I find pretentious and presumputous. We both "read" the same "text" (can you tell I was an English major?), but we got different things out of it. I ask that you allow me to do that. I know it's an overlong response to this trifle, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

The problem isn't the existence of rape in the plot. The problem is that no one seems to be concerned about the fact that Ms. Marvel was raped, she doesn't seem to have a problem with it, and it's romanticized. That is a massive problem. Comic book writers are free to write about rape, in both "real" and fantastical forms, but when they act like it's some normal event that's just part of the plot and even romanticize it, that it ridiculous.

The reason why it's misogynistic is because it's part of a big issue with how rape victims aren't often taken seriously and hear dismissive remarks like how their clothing choice or past sexual activity means they asked for it. It may not seem related at face value due to the fantastical nature of the rape, but the fact that no one had a problem with this pervades a larger problem.

Now, let's keep our terms aligned here. You say it's a problem and then you say it's ridiculous, so I'm going to let "problem" win the day and tell you what I think you're trying to say. I think you're trying to say that if a comic book writer wants to show a rape, you're enlightened and civil and libertarian enough to allow that, but you won't allow the people around the raped woman to respond in a way you don't like. To me, that's just one step removed from demanding that comics never contain rape. Now, of course, if Ms. Marvel gets raped, I don't want Captain America saying, "Well, maybe don't dress so slutty next time." I might even go so far as to write a letter telling Marvel I won't buy anymore comics like that, but I can't stretch my own morals enough to tell this company what they can and can't do with their characters in their stories.

I honestly hear about this convoluted plotline and have a hard time thinking the writer thought he was writing a rape story. Is he dumb for writing it without understanding the implications of what he was writing? I'll say "maybe," since I haven't read the story for myself and (no offense) Bob has a habit of showing only the side of the story he wants to show to villify whom he wants to villify. I'm glad Claremont came along and retconned the story. So what then, if anything, DO I want comic book writers to do or do differently? I want them to have a reason, even if I never hear them say it or it remains a mystery in the story itself, for every major story beat and plot point they write. In the end, I think the writer of this story simply didn't think about the implications of what he was writing, which led to a bigger brouhaha than it seems from my limited perspective that he wanted (unless he truly was trying to say that rape is okay, which he is allowed to do, he just won't have me as a customer).

I think these days stories like this are fewer and farther between. Even when Alex DeWitt (I looked up her name because I didn't want to just call her "GL's girlfriend") gets stuffed in a fridge, the writer does it to show just how far Major Force is willing to go to hurt Green Lantern. That's real life, says the guy who just finished reading a book about the Columbine High massacre. I welcome that stuff in my comics, because I want to read about a world that is awesome, fantastical, and impossible, but also, real.

Trishbot, I have a reply for you percolating. I'll get on it after I get some homework done.

Apropos of (almost) nothing: I don't mean to offend, but I'd really like to read a story about a woman who is raped and gets over it quickly and easily, just to see how a writer would pull that off. Does anyone know of a story that does this effectively? Something like,

"Yes, it happened, and it hurt, and I hate it, but it only confirmed in me what I already knew: that this world is harsh, that terrible things happen, and that I have very little control over my own life. I knew that before and afterward. Life goes on."

well in defense of super hero women story archs, I think Raven had an awesome story arch that wasen't sexist.

Trishbot:

I played a game with my fiance; could we name a single female heroine that has not 1) been killed, 2) depowered, 3) raped, 4) been shoe-horned into a marriage, or 5) gotten pregnant.

... We were only able to name ONE (love ya, Squirrel Girl). From Wonder Woman to She-Hulk to Ms. Marvel to Scarlet Witch to Jean Grey to Batgirl to Storm to Black Canary to Power Girl to practically every other female character...

Raven technically doesn't have any of those happen to her. I mean...her physical body dies at one point, but its not like the usual they died but some writer loved them so they retconned it into not dyin.

Also Cassie from Teen Titans (Wonder Girl). The only time she died was some weird illusion fake out by Aprhodite.

STOP. HOLD UP.
I have a problem with this being called "Rape."

This "rape" depends entirely on the accusation that Marcus used mind control, (both mechanical and psychological) against her will. I need actual evidence of this, not just Bob and Carola Strictland saying so. (Please keep in mind that I have not read the comic in question, but I did go to http://www.carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/msmarvel2.html for research.

First, lets talk about Marcus's plan, or "Scheme" to get to Earth.

From Ms. Strictland's Article:

Daddy vanished (when he killed himself off a few millenia before), and Marcus was left alone. Not particularly liking semi-Limbo, he decided to go to Earth. He concocted a scheme by which he could be unnaturally born on Earth, speeded up in growth, and thus be able to prevent the destruction his presence in normal space would eventually create. He coldly chose the mother of the thing that would be himself: "The powerful combination of Kree and human strengths, would be the perfect vessel," he decided, and chose the perfect double of the only human woman he had ever known and loved: his unnamed mother.

Creepy and Oedipus-like? Perhaps. Keep in mind this poor bastard spent his entire life in a pocket dimension, isolated from any society, and even his own father left him trapped there.
What kind of rap-sheet made this guy evil in the first place? Am I to just assume that Marcus is evil because he the son a villain?

What the hell is so wrong with wanting to get out of Limbo? So he wanted to find a girl from Earth. Guess what? Humanity marries each other for money and power to better their own lives all the time, and no one bats an eye. Guess what else? Women also selectively choose what traits they want in a mate. This guy wants to escape a lonely life in Limbo AND he wants to selectively choose a mate, and now its suddenly so wrong?

But hey, intention is hard thing to prove without context. Lets just get to the method:

...[Marcus] couldn't explain his plight and let her decide if [Ms. Marvel] wanted to go through with his crazy idea or not; he wouldn't even consider that she might have a better idea for getting him to Earth. Instead he went about wooing her: poetry, clothes and music he furnished, thinking that those are the only things women are interested in.

How is it that being non-transparent, or even chauvinistic = sinister? Yeah, Rapists disguise their intentions. So do awkward guys inexperienced with love. Hey, turns out Marcus has been living in fucking Limbo, isolated from any kind of society. Forget about his evil father (who abandoned him) and then all this wooing seems like just foreplay. If this wooing was so objectionable, why does Ms. Marvel let it continue? Did she scream "Stop! Send me back home now"? It sure doesn't look like it. Please someone tell me that I'm missing a huge detail here.

But what I REALLY want to know is about all that juicy "sinister mind control" technique...

When Ms. Marvel didn't respond, as he explains to her in the present, "...Finally, after relative weeks of such efforts -- and admittedly, with a subtle boost from Immortus' machines -- you became mine."

Ok, strap in boys and girls... Its Law and Order: SVU time.

The very next paragraph in Ms. Strictland's prosecution:

This is not hidden between the lines. Little kids can read the obvious fact: he raped Ms. Marvel. The artwork goes to great lengths -- two close-up panels -- to show Ms. Marvel's ecstacy during the pseudo-mating.

And... Fizzle.

Wait, that's it? Just some dialog open to interpretation and she rests her case? Seriously, what they hell do these machines do?! The only clue as to their function is that Immortus used them before on Marcus's mother, and that they create dream worlds. THAT'S IT! Absolutely nothing else about them. Hell, maybe those fancy machines just make Marcus smell more attractive along with all that fancy dream world they created! Damn, that's a crime now?! I better stop wearing cologne and stop taking girls out to restaurants that I have made arrangements at.

Creating dream worlds can subtlety but drastically change someone's motivation and personality in life ala Inception. Or they can just be pleasant diversions, like every fraking romance story EVER. Turns out this story is too fraking vague to make any determination.

I don't enjoy defending rapists, so someone PLEASE SHATTER THIS ARGUMENT! Innocent until PROVEN guilty. I went through Strictland's essay, and it just goes onto rampant feminist rage after this badly presented accusation. Unless this happens, my jury is hung, and the Defendant, Mr. Marcus, will be acquitted of the charges of "Rape."

wakes up preggers and no idea how? sara pezzini from witchblade anyone?

Season 2 episode 1 of Star Trek the next generation.

Same story with the counselor to start, I just happened to have watched it just last night lol.

Why did I predict that there would be a ton of idiots in this thread trying to defend Marcus's actions?

Oh well... at least when Bob shows these idiots the rest of the story next week, that should shut them up for a bit...

Wat.
No, seriously. Wat. ALL of my wat. Amounts of wat equivalant to my amounts of NO to the Yogscast's recent MLP minecraft videos.

Zachary Amaranth:

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:

Did you even read my whole post?

Yup. Still doesn't change the fact that he's not literally addressing the big picture just because his show is named that, and you were complaining that he should spend more time doing that.

It doesn't really matter that you said additional things, like how a comic episode now and again was fine. You evidently don't get what the show is about. You were not just whining about the number of comic episodes.

And all the information you needed was in what you parroted back to me. He doesn't need to address movies for "The Big Picture" to make sense. It's a play on the fact that he's "Moviebob." Nothing more is needed.

Do you also rant about how there is no extra punctuation in Extra Punctuation? Do you complain that some of the cutscenes in Unskippable are skippable? Do you feel No Right Answer is bad for occasionally giving a clear right answer? Are you burning with rage at the fact that there is no "escape" in Escape to the movies?

I hope not, but I can't be sure based on your nitpicking here.

Oh, dear god. I was not complaining about the comic episode because of what his fucking show is called. I was complaining because I just don't think they're very interesting. That whole bit about the show's title was not meant to be taken literally, I was just proving a point. I can't believe I have to clarify something so blindingly obvious, but there it is. Are we done now? Please?

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:

Oh, dear god. I was not complaining about the comic episode because of what his fucking show is called. I was complaining because I just don't think they're very interesting. That whole bit about the show's title was not meant to be taken literally, I was just proving a point. I can't believe I have to clarify something so blindingly obvious, but there it is. Are we done now? Please?

If it was blindingly obvious, you wouldn't have said the contrary.

Sorry, dude. I'm guessing we're done, but only because you know you've fucked up and are backtracking.

I'd seen this on Cracked, but still makes my head hurt.

Still, I'll go ahead and say it: if the writers hadn't been oblivious to the fact that this was, yes, rape, and hadn't manufactured a happy ending out of Stockholm syndrome, it would have been pretty fucking awesome. Don't tell me the concept of a transdimensional entity abducting women to use their womb as a portal, mysoginistic as it is, isn't also deliriously interesting.

Towels:
stuff about rape

You're making a tempest on a teapot. I mean, your point is valid, but your entire problem with it esteems from a single fact you didn't take into account when you read the article: it was meant to be read only by people who had read the original comic. I haven't, and judging by your comment you haven't either, but it's very clear that the article assumed readers would have. Maybe you're right and Strickland's claims don't hold water, but we can't verify that unless we read the actual comic, which unless it's available online or someone works at a second hand comic book shop will be quite hard. It'd be like discussing Shakespeare without having ever read his works. Except instead of Shakespeare it's insane time-traveling incest-rape (so pretty much the same thing).

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