The Skyrim/Dragon Age Baby

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Sonic Doctor:

innocentEX:
I'm guess Susan doesn't have any understanding of the Elder Scrolls Lore.

What does that have to do with anything? Qualify your statement.

Susan was talking about the characters she encountered in Skyrim:

The people that populate Skyrim are wooden quest dispensers that couldn't be more boring if they quoted actuary tables at me.

What does that have to do with Elder Scrolls lore? Is there something in the lore that says that something has struck people in the world stupid so that they act barely real in the sense that they aren't deeply characterized?

Her point was that Skyrim would be an even better game if it's characters were like Dragon Age 2 characters, because Dragon Age 2 characters, even small/mini quest characters, were deeply characterized. They just didn't just say stuff like, "I need help. I'll pay you, this is what you have to do."

DA2 characters tell you their names, tell you how certain things came to pass, how people you encounter might react, the name of the possible person you might be looking for and their relation to the speaker and how they got along, and the characters would also throw in how they felt about you and the world around you and many other random things. It makes you feel like you are talking to an actual person who has feelings/emotions and has a real life in that world.

I am amazed that anyone would take the time to quote a post with so little content in it. You sir deserve a super special award, let me be the first to give you one. -gives super special award- wear it with pride.

evilthecat:
So enlighten me then, why are the characters in Planescape: Torment so good? As mentioned, two are simply archetypes of the D&D Law/Chaos alignment system.

Well, if I was being flippant, I'd say that unlike DA2, when you run down the list of Planecape: Torment characters, you don't have to start by getting the absolutely terrible characters out of the way first.

But really, it's a combination of writing quality, individual story arcs, implementation of c&c, and similar intangibles. Also, they tend not to infodump at you (one exception to this rule is *known* to me), which is a particular weakness of Bio characters.

innocentEX:

Sonic Doctor:
Snip

I am amazed that anyone would take the time to quote a post with so little content in it. You sir deserve a super special award, let me be the first to give you one. -gives super special award- wear it with pride.

Why would you make a comment about the article's writer that makes no sense about anything in the article?

Then again, you talk about your comment like it is a low content post, and low content posts are against the forum's rules.

Kahunaburger:
Well, if I was being flippant, I'd say that unlike DA2, when you run down the list of Planecape: Torment characters, you don't have to start by getting the absolutely terrible characters out of the way first.

Ignus.

Vhalior.

Nordom.. oh God it kills me because he's adorable, but however well (and cleverly) you do it repeating the same joke over and over doesn't make for good character development.

Fall From Grace isn't brilliant either.

EDIT: I suppose that's cheating a little. These character's aren't horrible, they're just meh. There isn't enough about any of them to really love or hate, except for Nordom, and then it's the shallow love of someone who just likes the perversity of the core concept.

Susan Arendt:
The Skyrim/Dragon Age Baby

Blending the locations of Skyrim and the characters of Dragon Age 2 would make one damn fine RPG.

Read Full Article

Fun fact: My wife and I are sitting here laughing our asses off at how many times "Skyrim" appears on the front page of The Escapist. That, and this thread about mixing games, have caused me to think nothing but: "Yo dawg! We heard you like Skyrim, so we put some Skyrim in yo' Skyrim so you can Skyrim while you Skyrim."

evilthecat:

Kahunaburger:
Well, if I was being flippant, I'd say that unlike DA2, when you run down the list of Planecape: Torment characters, you don't have to start by getting the absolutely terrible characters out of the way first.

Ignus.

Vhalior.

Nordom.. oh God it kills me because he's adorable, but however well (and cleverly) you do it repeating the same joke over and over doesn't make for good character development.

Fall From Grace isn't brilliant either.

EDIT: I suppose that's cheating a little. These character's aren't horrible, they're just meh. There isn't enough about any of them to really love or hate, except for Nordom, and then it's the shallow love of someone who just likes the perversity of the core concept.

That's more my point. Some Planescape: Torment characters are the representation of some abstract archetype, because that comes with the territory of the Planescape setting. (is, after all, a world where you can debate someone out of existence or create a person ex nihlo by claiming to be someone you aren't.) But they're well written abstract archetypes that implement the c&c heavy storytelling in their own arcs.

Dragon Age 2, on the other hand, has characters that actually make me cringe.

Dastardly:

Susan Arendt:
The Skyrim/Dragon Age Baby

Blending the locations of Skyrim and the characters of Dragon Age 2 would make one damn fine RPG.

Read Full Article

Fun fact: My wife and I are sitting here laughing our asses off at how many times "Skyrim" appears on the front page of The Escapist. That, and this thread about mixing games, have caused me to think nothing but: "Yo dawg! We heard you like Skyrim, so we put some Skyrim in yo' Skyrim so you can Skyrim while you Skyrim."

Add some minecraft, and every link on the escapist will lead to the article.

how about The Last Remnant + Skyrim instead?

innocentEX:
I'm guess Susan doesn't have any understanding of the Elder Scrolls Lore.

Really? Why?

Susan Arendt:
The Skyrim/Dragon Age Baby

Blending the locations of Skyrim and the characters of Dragon Age 2 would make one damn fine RPG.

Read Full Article

Great thought, but I'd say older Bioware games had better characters. Have to agree about the vistas of Bethesda combined with the characterization of Bioware. RPG heaven.

Your hypothetical game baby made me realize that no other babies could be as amazing as that. It's an odd feeling, knowing that my future children will have no chance at being that awesome.

Alright, future kids, prove me wrong! ...and Don't tell your mother I said this.

This almost sounds like a great idea. I think it'd be a lot more fun to have a combination of Skyrim and Dragon Age Origins, though, since Origins had much more intersting characters. Varric was about the only one in DA2 who wasn't flat and cliched.

Although what's wrong with Dragon Rim? I'm sure I read a story about that, it starred Spike and Rarity.

Double post, sorry.

innocentEX:
I'm guess Susan doesn't have any understanding of the Elder Scrolls Lore.

*shrugs* Vibrant and interesting locals with fairly disappointing characters inhabiting it, from what I've heard.

Since I have no life and I am a heathen, I am guilty of playing only one Bethesda game: Fallout 3. However, if Fallout is truly similar to the Elder Scrolls in what I've been told, then what Susan said was rather spot-on: Vibrant and interesting locals with a lot of deep lore and backstory behind them, but with wooden characters that fail to deliver anything representing actual character interaction.

Also, it would help if you actually tried to justify yourself in your post.

I can't think of a single character I liked or cared about in DA2. Not one.

Back before Fable came out and was being covered by XBox Magazine it was given the working title Project Ego. While I was reading the articles I was also playing Morrowind avidly.
I had the same kind of dream with those two games. I wanted to see the Fable magic/combat system and graphics with the free roaming endlessness of Morrowind, and include it's item/spell generation.

Azuaron:

Amaror:
First they would have to fix the gameplay from dragon Age 2.
Even if they had the best characters and enviroments, if the gameplay was still like that i couldn't enjoy it.

I haven't actually played Dragon Age 2 yet... (I always wait for the price of a game to drop to around $10. Just bought Fallout and Fallout: New Vegas! Woo!) But I did enjoy the combat of the first Dragon Age. Not as much as I could've, but I grew up on Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, so the top-down tactical battle appeals to me.

Now that I'm thinking about it, there aren't many RPGs with battle systems that I really enjoy. Probably just the new Fallouts (first-person shooting plus VATS! Because I'm actually not that accurate on my own.) Actually, I got into a couple of the beta weekends for SW:TOR, and I did enjoy the combat there. Hmmm... (Another point for Bioware?)

Oh i don't mean that kind of gameplay weakness. The gameplay in Dragon Age Origins was GREAT. And in KOTOR the combat was great too. The problem with DA 2 is that they had the worst idea in the world. They made enemys respawn. It ruins every attempt to play tactical because you can't taunt enemys if there are new ones coming the whole time, you can't protect your mages, if the enemys keep spawning behind them. It ruined the gameplay.
In the other factors was ok, but not nearly as good as origins, and the end of the story is really really really bad.
I could go on. DA 2 is not the "worst game evaaaaar", but i don't think you should buy it, because when a developer runs a promissing franchise in the ground so hard, they don't deserve the money, in my opinion.

Mixing one quart of sewage with three quarts of ambrosia will get you four quarts of sewage.

Dragon Age 2 shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.

Dude, you make MANY fine points, and I agree with every single damn one. I loved the characters in DA2 but hated the environs, and I LOVE the environs and scope of Skyrim, but for the life of me can't remember ANY of the inhabitants names. A dream pairing of Bioware's writers and The Elder Scrolls history and scope would be truly a thing to see. It might even happen one day, who knows?

I think every game ever should have Isabela in it. As a general rule.

I would argue that Dragon Age 2 has BioWare's best core cast of characters to date, so I would very much like to see Bethesda put the same amount of care and effort into molding theirs. Or alternatively have BioWare experiment with more expansive projects, although that's bound to attract even more of the knee-jerk fanboy rage which DA2 seemed to elicit.

Actually, I'd play Skyrim if I could care about the people. Beautiful cities don't really do much for me. It's a super pretty game, but if I can't care about the people I'm saving or become invested in the story, then I'm not going to really play.

Which is why I was willing to put up with Kirkwall for DA2. Because I adored my friends and would do anything to explore their characters. But Skyrim has so much to do. You can never not find something to do in Skyrim. Neverrrrr.

I'd play the shit out of this hypothetical game. It would never leave my console/computer.

I think it'd be funny if our bulking friend Shale made an appearance in Skyrim, just randomly killing chickens on farms ha ha, I'm sure the Companions of Jorrvaskar would be called in to take care of her. :o

Also if this were to happen finally the Jarl of Whiterun's son wouldn't constantly remind me every 2 fucking seconds that I shouldn't be in there. Shut up and go to bed I'm robbing your ass!

Yes, if we had a freedon of TES games with characters of DA games we would have a win. its a shame DA was so linear, it could ahve been an awesome game.

Susan Arendt:
The Skyrim/Dragon Age Baby

Blending the locations of Skyrim and the characters of Dragon Age 2 would make one damn fine RPG.

Read Full Article

I might address specific points of the article later, but for now, I'll just leave an Albert Einstein inspired thought.

You say that you loved the setting and lore of Skyrim, but disliked the wooden characters. Inversely, you loved the characters of Dragon Age, but disliked the environment as being shallow and uninteresting. Thus, to combine the brilliant characters of Dragon Age with the enthralling setting of Skyrim, it would create a perfect game, correct?

Well, possibly. But what would happen if the end result was Skyrim's characters implanted in Dragon Age's setting?

ResonanceSD:
Mixing one quart of sewage with three quarts of ambrosia will get you four quarts of sewage.

...look, man, unless you made some sort of typo in there, I'm pretty sure that's flawed logic. Otherwise, it's your thinking that if anything has a flaw, that flaw overwrites every positive thing in its favor, no matter how minor the flaw might be.

ResonanceSD:
Dragon Age 2 shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.

Aaaaaand now I think I might see why you don't have a great grip on chemistry.

SpaceMedarotterX:
How the fuck can I be nostalgic about a game I played a month ago? And no, it has nothing to do with how hard it is to get to KNOW a character, it has to do with how that character is, how you interact with them, how they tie into you.

Ah, Planescape: Torment. I still retell the 'Three Wishes' story from time to time.

SpaceMedarotterX:
See in DA2 I have a collection of utter fucking morons I can't get to leave me the hell alone up until I inevitably sell Fenris off into slavery, murder Anders, Isabela and Merill, and you have to be barking mad if you think I brought ANY of the fucking DLC.

...wait, what?

SpaceMedarotterX:
There's a difference between DA2 and Planescape Torment can be summed up in an image

image

WHAT IS THE NATURE OF A MAN?

Look, man, I'm gonna be honest: the only difference you're portraying there is that Planescape was primitive, gray, and impossible to read without a microscope, while Dragon Age had to be photoshopped into looking bad. I realize that the former couldn't be further from the truth, but do you see my point?

SpaceMedarotterX:
And I love how you can state "Well DA2's characters are good" while utterly failing to provide any argument as to WHY they are good, while I have stated, again and again, why they are terrible wastes of space.

Could you reiterate a few reasons you've got? If you just copy/paste from previous posts of yours with similar content, I've no problem with that.

Candidus:
No, no, no, no, no.

Dragon Age 2? Really?

Let's see. There's Anders Cullen, the borderline plagiarized-from-Twilight brain-fart of Hamburger Helper. "I love you, but I'll hurt you, Oh, I can't control it!". Repeat ad nauseum. Moving on...

Except that the main difference between the two is that Anders actually has something that can be called a curse. Being ageless and virtually indestructible is not offset by looking like you're wearing body glitter. Being possessed by the avatar of Vengeance and living with the knowledge that it was your own hatred that corrupted a spirit of pure Justice? That's a curse.

Candidus:
Fenris. Picked him up. Never took him with me because he's just a dirty heap of tween fodder. "Hrrrr, what they *DID* to *ME* -smoulder--smoulder-". Fuck off. Next.

For some reason, I thought that Fenris wouldn't have gotten nearly the same flak if he'd been built differently. Scraggly-bearded Norse hulk with magical brands? Badass, and actually befitting of a name from Norse mythology. And when someone like that reveals crippling levels of angst, it looks like it means something, and that something had to really screw him up to make him like that. With the current Fenris, you get the feeling that he was just born in the wrong era, ie, one that didn't have LiveJournal.

Candidus:
Merril. The one whose story you know from start to finish the moment you see the blood magic and hear the words "but *I* can control it". Charming and boring equally.

Erm...did you mean to place the emphasis on 'can' rather than 'I'?

But either way, Merril's entire storyline was part of a series that Tropers would know as "Bad Powers, Good People." In other words, are certain varieties of powers inherently good or evil? Are necromancers evil simply because they're necromancers, or is it because of how they apply that power? Merril seems to think otherwise, and one of the running debates of the Dragon Age series was over whether or not Blood Magic was inherently an evil thing.

The flip side, of course, is "Good Powers, Bad People," which we don't get to see much of, unfortunately. If you're familiar with the World of Darkness lore, you get Vivesectors, who've essentially taken what's fundamentally a 'healing' form of magic and use it to create unspeakable monstrosities from living creatures, people included.

But, again, back to Merril: she's clearly a good person, and it's not like she's actively channeling demons for her power, but by the quest's end, it became clear that it's human (or elf, dwarf, etc) error that makes certain kinds of magic 'evil.' Blood magic is no more inherently evil than nuclear power, and 'demons' are only viewed as evil because the 'good' ones simply don't have any desire to enter the mortal coil.

Candidus:
Some Dwarf. Dashing rogue. Talks dirty with Isabella. I took him with me everywhere and still can't remember his name. Says it all.

...look, man, to be honest, it sounds like you weren't paying much attention. Like, at all. Claiming that you don't remember his name isn't grounds to assert that he's forgettable.

Candidus:
Isabella was alright. Substantial, but not my cup of tea. A reluctant pass for Isabella.

See? You're not even hiding the fact that you're trying to come up with bad things to say about each character. If you only give "a reluctant pass" to someone who you have literally nothing bad to say about, then you're trying too hard to maintain your bias.

Char-Nobyl:
Snip

On Anders.

Yes, I know that Anders Cullen really did have a curse whereas Edward Cullen really didn't, but that's irrelevant to the point. Who cares what the specifics of Edward's condition are? The point is that his whole character boils down to "I love you, but I'll hurt you, I can't control etc etc", and Anders is written precisely the same way.

By an enormous Twilight fangirl.
Which you could say is an enormous coincidence.
If you were an enormous dunce.

On Merril.

"but by the quest's end,"

Here, let me fix that for you.

"but by the quest's beginning,"

There you go. Next.

On Dwarf and Isabella.

I paid about as much attention to DA2 as the junior-writer fanfiction that comprised most of it warranted.

I gave Isabella a reluctant pass because while I had nothing bad to say about her, I had nothing particularly good to say either. "She's substantial" I said. It's the sort of abstract and imprecise praise you give to someone who is in no way praiseworthy. Then you hope to hell that nobody asks you to get specific.

I just realized something reading through all these rants. Now, here we have people basically agreeing with Susan about how DA2's characters were excellently made and rememberable. And then others that disagree completely because they thought they were completely forgetable and unlikeable.

Now I throw myself into the people who actually liked DA2, Mostly because there were characters in there who were personable. People who had lives and backstories, and reasons for the quests they give. But, thats not what I'm getting at here.

What I realized is that everyone in the world is different right? But so are the characters in the game. Everyone is going either like/dislike certin characters depending on the person they are themselves. I see people here posting that mostly everyone hated Anders, but yet I see and know people who liked him. Me personally, I hated his constant whining. for freedom from the Templars! But yet, I bet you 20$ that anyone who has experienced anything about the slave trade that's happening in the world today, they'd like Anders a whole lot more.

For example, I'll bring up my favorite set of characters, Varric and Isabella. I loved these two. They were funny, bantering, and always had something good to say. I realized not too long ago I have two best friends that are EXACTLY like these two. One is a guy who'd always stick up for me and have my back, While the other, (sadly an ex-gf of mine) is ironically a sailor, and loves nothing more then freedom and making her own choices. But yet, put these two in the same room together and instant hilarity!

The point I'm trying to make is, wheather or not you like these characters, is all dependant on you, your experiences, how you were brought up, and most importantly,

YOUR OWN CHARACTER.

See here...writing style that Bioware used in Ferelden (first one at least, only played Origins) and mixed it with atmosphere Bethesda utilized in Skyrim...

...yep, that means I am in Westeros and reality now feels lacking, especially if I get a Direwolf.

I completely agree here (almost!). Skyrim's environments and Dragon Age Origins' characters put together would be perfect :D

I'd disagree with this article as I do remember some characters in my experiences with the TES (The Elder Scrolls) games. No I don't remember their names, but their character stands out in their actions and involvement in quests: Remember the woman that got robbed in Morrowind, but wants you to give her glove to her robber to show her love? Remember The crazy Wood elf in Oblivion that thought people were watching him, hires you to spy on other people, and would go insane by killing people with a battle axe if you encourage his paranoia? How about the Orc librarian in Skyrim's Winterhold academy that constantly reminds you to not mess with his books, yet shows respect when you become an Arch-mage?

I know a lot of characters repeat themselves in a TES game, but there is some definition to the quest givers that--while not revealed as bluntly as a character in a Bioware game--do distinguish the Orc librarian from an Orc battle-mage found in a dungeon across the map. Its like saying Samus Aran (from Metroid) has no character when you don't consider her background as a bounty hunter, how she got her suit, or her skill in combat.

Dragon Age 2 is a questionable choice.
If she had suggested Origins then I could actually read this without cringing.

Varric is the only likeable character in DA2. :| I couldn't even look at Aveline most of the time because of her ridiculous chin.

I remember loads of the side characters from Morrowind and Oblivion but I would be hard pressed to make my brain come up with one of those many runaway mages that eventually turn to blood magic...and yet still expect you to defend them. :|

Char-Nobyl:

Susan Arendt:
The Skyrim/Dragon Age Baby

Blending the locations of Skyrim and the characters of Dragon Age 2 would make one damn fine RPG.

Read Full Article

I might address specific points of the article later, but for now, I'll just leave an Albert Einstein inspired thought.

You say that you loved the setting and lore of Skyrim, but disliked the wooden characters. Inversely, you loved the characters of Dragon Age, but disliked the environment as being shallow and uninteresting. Thus, to combine the brilliant characters of Dragon Age with the enthralling setting of Skyrim, it would create a perfect game, correct?

Well, possibly. But what would happen if the end result was Skyrim's characters implanted in Dragon Age's setting?

ResonanceSD:
Mixing one quart of sewage with three quarts of ambrosia will get you four quarts of sewage.

...look, man, unless you made some sort of typo in there, I'm pretty sure that's flawed logic. Otherwise, it's your thinking that if anything has a flaw, that flaw overwrites every positive thing in its favor, no matter how minor the flaw might be.

ResonanceSD:
Dragon Age 2 shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.

Aaaaaand now I think I might see why you don't have a great grip on chemistry.

Shhhh...we're dealing with selective breeding, here. :)

Bethesda Has stayed pretty true to TES Universe, Bioware Has disapointed the hell out of me with DA 2 and I forsee Bad things in the future. Even if they had the engine I think biowares end result would pale in comparison .

Nannernade:
I think it'd be funny if our bulking friend Shale made an appearance in Skyrim, just randomly killing chickens on farms ha ha, I'm sure the Companions of Jorrvaskar would be called in to take care of her. :o

I love Shale. LOVE. Any opportunity for more Shale is fine by me.

For people saying that they really hated DA 2 characters, I'm curious - what class did you play? (This is about characters only, not about the gameplay.) I wonder if there's any correlation between people's enjoyment of the game (or at least with regards to the characters and story) and the class they chose.

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