Jimquisition: Hardcore Hypocrisy

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Yeah, I agree that depth isn't everything in the game, but it can be nice, y'know. Just like any other main feature, you'd add it if you could add it well, but you wouldn't sacrifice or botch parts of the game to add it.

EDIT: I hate double posts. "Couldn't post your message" my foot.

I'm not mad. I play games because they are fun. Mario cart is one of the few games I can play with my sister who hardly ever plays games.

Infinity blade actually looks like i game i would like to be ported to PC.

I can be down on a lot of the mobile platform games for being little more than a re-skin of some classic old school game that isn't paying a penny to the creator because they are little better than the guys selling cams of new cinema releases out side Tesco.

That how ever doesn't make mobile gaming invalid, just... new. even if it is nearly as old as regular gaming.

Infinity Blade is a fine game. And being on an iOS, or being "simple", does not mean it is bad.

A fine episode, I tell you.

Didn't you already do this when you were talking about Angry Birds?

With Infinity Blade 1 & 2 it pretty much breaks down unto it looks cool, it make may play well and the story maybe badass. Yet I'm not buying a fucking iPhone just to play a game because hell I really don't use my current cellphone much if at all since I work and study at home.

Imagine Infinity Blade 2 on the Wii with Wii motion plus well done like in Skyward Sword.....
Ohhh God... please Nintendo, but the rights and make a final epic game for the Wii. <3

Anyways, Jim is right... again. :P

Sixcess:
I don't hate casual games.

I hate the industry for dumbing so many games down so that those smug, middle class cunts in those video excerpts might consider playing them.

The industry is in love with the idea that their games will gain wider recognition and acceptability - which translates either into being played at parties by 'non-gamers' or, on the flipside, being played by the multiplayer jock crowd - how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.

I hate that industry excuse when it comes to games. Some games don't need to be played at parties nor have man children saying the words fuck and faggot to be accepted. Yet the real sad thing about it people that are making games are listening to idiots that don't make or really care about games it's about stocks, bonds and numbers to those fools. Everybody is fucking nerd it just depends on what your nerd focus is.

This is a good opportunity to ask not only for Jim but for all of you. Why do you need so much of the approval from others? What difference does it make to you? Do you like a game less if strangers don't approve?

I really have nothing negative to say about the Jimquisition this time round, great episode and I agree entirely. Good work Jim. Also, best delivery on a closing two words I've seen in one of these videos yet. I actually laughed out loud.

I would consider Pacman, Tetris and Punchout to be casual games. And I would be aware they are an important part of history because the trend is games become deeper and more complex as we improve. That's the general direction of progress, up.

So you're point please?

In any case there is a recognisable difference in the purpose and design of a game like Pacman or Infinity Blade and LA Noire. Casual is as good a term as any to label that difference, and whilst casual games can be brilliant and fufill a different purpose than hardcore games (I wouldn't want to play Skyrim on a bus, or when I'm looking for some really mindless entertainment), non-casual games have qualities and purposes make them better. Short stories are brilliant, Asimov and Sherlock Holmes (that was chosen on popularity rather than cohesion. Saying Conan-Doyle makes me sound like I'm trying to be cleverer than I am :D) proved they have place in history, but it still stands that a full novel takes more work and is generally more satisfying and that is the case often enough to label a novel as 'better'

BiH-Kira:
Imagine Infinity Blade 2 on the Wii with Wii motion plus well done like in Skyward Sword.....
Ohhh God... please Nintendo, but the rights and make a final epic game for the Wii. <3

Anyways, Jim is right... again. :P

I am not sure how well the wii would handle Unreal 3.

mjc0961:

kiri2tsubasa:
I have always used this definition of gamer. Do you play games, 'yes', do you like playing games, 'yes', do you know how to get the games that interest you (retail, DD, etc), 'yes', congratulations, you are a gamer.

Or how about we end the labels: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8031-Extra-Punctuation-Dont-Use-the-Word-Gamer

I'm going to go watch some TV now. I guess that makes me a TVer, as I must label myself based on what I do for entertainment. *eye roll*

Doesn't quite roll off the tongue but I know a couple of people who are TV enthusiasts.
I don't see anything wrong with the term gamer but I can see how you might if that's the only thing people call you.
Maybe one day everyone will game in one way or another and it wont be practical but where not there yet.
But taking offense to the term or forcing a new term onto people is needless and a bit pretentious.

There's apparently already a lot of snobs who game from what Jim said. In fact, at this point, the amount of people who play "hardcore" games is shrinking while the "casual" gaming market is expanding like crazy. The "hardcore" snobs aren't going to feel too superior when nobody is making "their" games anymore...but then the "casual" snobs are probably not going to be pleased when publishers who are used to "hardcore gamers" sensibilities (call it forgiveness...or gullibility) try laying online passes and full price beta tests on them.

Sixcess:
how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.

How else can I explain that? Allow me to try. ME3 is about an entire galaxy at war. You know how there has been rounds of criticism in the upper echelons of gaming designers and critique about how cutscenes are becoming to be seen as an outdated concept, and gamers don't really like them? And also how cool sounding elements of a game not being present to be played don't really please people? Like how, say, if ME3 came out surrounded by the sell that this is full scale galactic warfare, and never had an option to allow you to experience that, if you wished...

Well, in ME3, you're getting the opportunity to take part in said full scale, interplanetary shitstorms, to show that this isn't just Shepherd and friends. This really is the entire galaxy, fighting for it's very existence. And they're expressing that through gameplay, giving you the opportunity to forge desperate alliances and engage the reapers across the galaxy on more then a single front, dominated by a single team, led by a single man.

That's the way I see it, they're integrating an element that will feel, perfectly in line with the experience they've been building up to for 2 of the best games this generation. And I for one can't fucking wait.

Or, you know, they're just dicking you. You personally.

As for the stupid notion that single player is for nerds, where did you even get that idea?

Jim, I think you'll find that Mario Kart fan was insulting you because you yourself are a massive hypocrite. You gave Mario Kart 7 a 5 for being a rehash of the same formula, which it totally is; I completely agree there. However you gave Modern Warfare a 9.5. I think someone needs to get their priorities straight.

Brilliant video. I would consider myself a hardcore gamer, but that's mostly because games are a large part of my life, even outside of actually playing them. I have no problem with people who want to pick up a controller and be able to play a game. In fact, a number of my favorite games have been mechanically 'shallow' experiences. Little Big Planet is a great example. Tetris is another.

And one more point, LBP is probably the hardest game I've played this year. That includes hard mode clears of Crysis 2, DNF and Deus Ex HR, just to name a few. Casual doesn't mean easy, it means easy to learn.

I'm not going to spend the time to read the four pages of comments. But hey as an avid gamer, I love simple games sometimes. I love rpgs but sometimes playing things like Earth Defense Force, or boxing or anything else that consist of brainless killing, is just the way to go. I don't kill Call of Duty but that is because of the fans and just a broad personal preferences. I sat at Gamestop for the Battlefield release to be the only one to get Cursed Crusade. I love games and the ones I love are the ones that I don't hear some elitist saying that the game they pick is the best and only real gamers play that game.

The term hardcore gamer only brings up negative connotations among pretty much every other gamer. I have played games for 20 years and I will continue to do so until I die. I still refuse to group my self with those hateful gamers who attack anything that isn't the mainstream.

On Jim's note about 8/10. My favorite games are rated as such, Final Fantasy 6 9/10 (on its re-release with Final Fantasy 5 on Playstation 2) Earth Defense Force (6.9/10) Kengo Masters of Bushido (6/10) Gladiator Begins (6.5/10) I have played for 20 years and only my most favorite game ever is even close to a 10.

Games can be awesome in their own right and should be reviewed on their own merit, not the title.

Tin Man:

Sixcess:
how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.

How else can I explain that? Allow me to try. ME3 is about an entire galaxy at war. You know how there has been rounds of criticism in the upper echelons of gaming designers and critique about how cutscenes are becoming to be seen as an outdated concept, and gamers don't really like them? And also how cool sounding elements of a game not being present to be played don't really please people? Like how, say, if ME3 came out surrounded by the sell that this is full scale galactic warfare, and never had an option to allow you to experience that, if you wished...

Bioware consider cutscenes outdated? Bioware?

Well, in ME3, you're getting the opportunity to take part in said full scale, interplanetary shitstorms, to show that this isn't just Shepherd and friends. This really is the entire galaxy, fighting for it's very existence. And they're expressing that through gameplay, giving you the opportunity to forge desperate alliances and engage the reapers across the galaxy on more then a single front, dominated by a single team, led by a single man.

Sounds great, only y'know, it's not going to play like that. It's going to play like every other online multiplayer shooter in existence, only not as good.

Multiplayer is a bad medium for storytelling. It's the difference between listening to an audio book read by your favourite actor and hearing the same book shouted out over a public address system by an illiterate 12 year old... who's playing Nyancat in the background.

As for the stupid notion that single player is for nerds, where did you even get that idea?

I didn't get that idea, but it feels to me that the industry did. Maybe there's nothing more to it than them chasing those big Call of Duty bucks (e.g. CoD is the best selling franchise in the world and is mainly known for its multiplayer - ergo if we shoehorn multiplayer into our game it will become the biggest franchise in the world. And if you think that's ridiculous reasoning just look at the money that has been poured into cranking out WoW knock-offs in the futile hope of stealing Blizzard's business.)

Actually, I kinda hope that is the case, because the alternative is that the games industry has a massive inferiority complex and is ashamed of its players. Multiplayer games are played by happy smiling people in well lit living rooms (at least according to the ads.) Singleplayer is played by unsocialised nerds in dank basements (I'd say according to the ads but when was the last time you saw an ad for a single player game that showed someone actually playing it?)

My point, overall, is that whilst there is nothing inherently wrong with 'casual' games and/or non-traditional platforms for those games, there is a danger that the industry will fall so in love with the idea of broadening their audience that they will forget what used to be their core audience - the traditional console and pc gamers.

Bioware are cramming multiplayer into everything that moves right now. Valve said a while back that they're unlikely to ever make a solely single player game again. And just as a game designed as a multiplayer title cannot provide an equally satisfying single player experience, nor can games designed for a casual audience provide the experience that the, for want of a better word, hardcore audience are looking for. Not as the norm at least.

For some people, or me at least, its not so much the iOS games that are the problem, as it is the systems. First you have the iPhone, which would require a switch in cell phone service just to play games, and second is the iPad which costs way too much (before you call hypocrisy, I don't have a PS3 for the same reason). The clips you showed of this game make it look great, and I would love to play it, but unfortunately it was only released for the "casual" iOS market, on systems I don't feel are worth buying. This is the problem with "casual" gamers, or rather new gamers, they don't realize that their being ripped off, and those of us who do realize are missing out on good games.

It's important to note not all Hardcore Gamers are idiots like this. I consider myself a Hardcore Gamer and enjoy iPhone games all the time. In fact, I have clocked in over 70 hours in Infinity Blade alone. I enjoy both sterile reboots and games that copy classic formulas in new and interesting ways.

I think the term Hardcore Gamer should be linked to someone who is heavily invested in the gaming scene and who is also skilled at all games, rather than someone who refuses change or refuses to accept when change is needed.

Sixcess:

Actually, I kinda hope that is the case, because the alternative is that the games industry has a massive inferiority complex and is ashamed of its players. Multiplayer games are played by happy smiling people in well lit living rooms (at least according to the ads.) Singleplayer is played by unsocialised nerds in dank basements (I'd say according to the ads but when was the last time you saw an ad for a single player game that showed someone actually playing it?)

Legend Of Zelda Skyward Sword? Red Steel 2? There are a few out there, surprisingly a lot for the wii, considering how it is always shown as a social multiplayer console. I for one miss Singleplayer games, as it is often those ones that have the most replayability due to more focus on the writing, building a fun game world etc etc

Daystar Clarion:
Still doesn't explain why you gave Mario Kart that score for 'not changing anything', then MW3 ended up with a very high score.

You know Call of Duty right?...

Have you played MW3?

No?

Well then how can you form an opinion on something you HAVE NOT PLAYED?

Seriously: Give it a rent, play through the singleplayer storyline, admire the best sound design and overall immersion of the series in the game itself (It is surprisingly easy to get sucked in when you are just dumped STRAIGHT into the action instead of having a tutorial at the start!).

Do all of this with an open mind and no prejudice against it and you will see why it gets such a high score. Infinty ward have polished the engine and game to a perfect shine (inb4 trolls who have not played the game saying "polish a turd and it's still a turd") (inb4 people lying about having played the game so they can get away with trolling (Seriously; anyone who has played the game will appreciate how good it is and if you do not you obviously have not played the game!)) (inb4 people herp derping that you can't say CoD is good) and you can tell that they really know how to get the best out of the engine.

To quote The Spoony One:

"Yes, and that was twenty...years...ago. This is 2011. Gamers expect more. They deserve more."

We're supposed to be PAST simple games by now. We should be striving for more difficult, engaging and deep experiences. Ones that cannot be achieved on the iPhone.

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

Where I Came from? I came from Nethack, Civilization, and Close Combat; and a less casual set of games there has rarely been. Heck, my mother used to play ZZT on weekends.

And tell me, would you not rather have Battle for Wesnoth, The Bard's Tale, or Aralon - full, open, deep, rewarding experiences - than pretty yet ultimately limited experiences like Infinity Blade?

By all means, keep making Infinity Blades. But do not let them take over. Do not pull a Microsoft here, replacing all your Skyrims, STALKERs, and Half-Lifes with Kinectimals, angry birds, and Fruit Ninja clones. This is the root of the backlash, I feel, and it is vital not to ignore it - that while the extent and vehement nature of the anger may be unwarranted, our "hardcore" games of the modern age may well be superseded by an industry eager to chase this new golden cow. Remember, fellow gamers, the story of the PC, utterly abandoned by Microsoft when they had a more lucrative system. Microsoft are back, sure, but they're back for the casuals, make no mistake. Take note of the fate of gaming on the Wii - buried in shovelware, six feet under in under six years. Watch Microsoft and Sony focus on making their consoles family friendly at the expense of their "hardcore" contingent, and realize that this is not a question of coexistence, but of survival.

This thread just proves that gaming is srs bzns.

I'm not sure that's a good thing.

EverythingIncredible:

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

lord.jeff:
I'm really glad that the whole Casual vs. Hardcore has for the most part disappeared; it was the dumbest of all the downfall of gaming crap that I've heard over the years.

Wha? No, it hasn't disappeared at all. I still see it everywhere.

Daystar Clarion:

EverythingIncredible:

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.

EverythingIncredible:

Daystar Clarion:

EverythingIncredible:

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

omicron1:
Watch Microsoft and Sony focus on making their consoles family friendly at the expense of their "hardcore" contingent, and realize that this is not a question of coexistence, but of survival.

This is the funny thing though, Nintendo's hardcore market was basically the fans of first party franchises. The Marios, the Zeldas. That was all that could keep fans due to the lack of decent 3rd party support and by extension, 3rd party hardcore games.

Microsoft and Sony aren't as reliant and don't have as big a first party status, so keeping 3rd parties is in there very survival and I seriously doubt that they could trip up like Nintendo did.

Daystar Clarion:

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Console games have been around just as long and haven't seen that level of depth.

lol

EverythingIncredible:

Daystar Clarion:

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Console games have been around just as long and haven't seen that level of depth.

lol

You honestly believe that? You really think that no console game has ever equaled the complexity of a PC game?

That's just...

The...

Forget it.

Atmos Duality:

Cpu46:

Otaku World Order:
So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?

Try playing Double Dash with 4 players going through the final stretch, both racers perfectly in tune with their partners, neck and neck down to the last moment with a blue shell bearing down on you and tell me Mario Kart isn't hard core. I have lost blood over that game.

Oh man, back in the day, my sis and I had a zen-like connection that lead to the doom of many self-proclaimed "pros" at Double Dash. For most levels, I drove, she killed.

Don't be fooled by the cutesy colors: Double Dash can be every bit as cutthroat competitive as any shooter.

My sis doesn't have any zen. What she has are lightning fast reflexes, magma for blood, and a never say die attitude. To date my toughest opponent ever. Me and my cousin are the ones with the near telepathic connection and it still takes the two of them working in perfect unison to knock my sister out of first place whether she is alone or partnered with someone else.

Daystar Clarion:

EverythingIncredible:

Daystar Clarion:

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Except...don't games like Infinity Blade prove that games like system Shock or Deus Ex can already be made on the platform -now-? It's not a matter of lacking the resources or capabilities. For god's sake, Infinity Blade already looks about as damn good as many other modern releases, so it is not an issue of having to grow the technology up.

Hell, they could make a Civilisation game for the damn thing! If I'm not allowed to assume pure laziness, then do tell, what is the compelling reason for more often than not providing such weightless content?

GothmogII:

Daystar Clarion:

EverythingIncredible:

Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Except...don't games like Infinity Blade prove that games like system Shock or Deus Ex can already be made on the platform -now-? It's not a matter of lacking the resources or capabilities. For god's sake, Infinity Blade already looks about as damn good as many other modern releases, so it is not an issue of having to grow the technology up.

Hell, they could make a Civilisation game for the damn thing! If I'm not allowed to assume pure laziness, then do tell, what is the compelling reason for more often than not providing such weightless content?

I understand that, it's more a matter of waiting for a dev to commit to something like that for IOS. The tech exists, someone just needs to come along and make that game.

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