MovieBob: Intermission: Oh, Behave!

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Otaku World Order:
Actually, I've had it that the ushers will try and herd you out of the theater during the end credits. I hate that because I always sit through the end credits.

wooty:
Could not agree more with number 6, its right up there alongside babies on buses, babies on train, babies ON PLANES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, babies in supermarkets, babies in retaurants, (parants and) babies visiting my flat..........fuck it, I hate babies.

I'v had it withe these MOTHER^%$#ING BABIES ON THIS MOTHER^%$#ING PLANE!!!

Haha, snakes would of been preferable in my case. Try a 10 hour flight from Heathrow to Narita with a screaming baby. I tried watching the movie/listen to music, but to bring up another internet meme, "ZE HEADSETS, THEY DO NOTHING!"

Thank you for reminding me why I try and go to the cinema straight after work (4pm, sometimes earlier if my boss is in a good mood). Thor had about 20 people, Coraline had 6 of us and I was the only person watching the Lion King.

Sometimes the talking during movies is the about the most inane crap. A local theater showed The Shinning just before Halloween. A large group of my friends and I went. It was great to see such a movie in the theater it made it a better experience. Except for the group of people behind us talking. These were not teenagers though, they had to be at least in their 30s. They would not shut the f*^K up. "Oh, he trowing a ball" No, s*(T Sherlock! Do you really need to say that out loud or do you really think none of your friends would understand he was throwing a ball? If so God help us all...

I couldn't take it anymore. At the best of my ability I politely asked them to be quite. What I really wanted to say was "Shut the F*^K up or I am going to punch you in the F*^king throat!" I really had to hold myself back. And while they were good for a while, during the end of the movie they kept laughing at the most inappropriate parts. Afterwards I wanted to ask "Whats wrong with you people?!"

I just wish people like that would read stuff like Bob's rant but they are people who will most likely ignore it.

Awesome read, but I don't like the mention of pornography. Yes, we get it, you like sex, you don't need to keep reminding us.

I can't say much I got ticket to the rum direy and endded up making out with my girlfriend through most of it. give it was her me and two other people. One was texting and the other was in the very back row.

Plus you know the movie sucked.

Yeah, kids can make for a very uncomfortable experience. Once i sat two seats away from a mother who read subtitles to her kid the entire movie. Every single line. Granted, it was during a Chronicles Of Narnia (Dawn treader) movie so it's for kids (and i'm a big kid, shut up) but is it for kids who can't read? It was very hard to balance being annoyed and having an awww moment because my parents never would have done something like that for me. And what was i going to do about it, have them thrown out? I just tried my best to focus on the movie. But she shouldn't have brought her kid there.

I'm only jaded about movies, but only because the art of storytelling is one of the most important things in the world to me and it's evident with almost every movie I watch how little it means to Hollywood. I especially hate to see a movie where they make no effort to develop a character and make him likable and then suddenly at the end throw together a scene where everybody's crying because something bad happens to said character. I can't help but scream angrily whenever I see this happen.
But then, this is kind of the reason why I never go to theaters anymore. My rage at Hollywood's complete and utter lack of respect for the things I love most makes it impossible for me to be a polite moviegoer.

This is one reason why I usually wait a week or two and catch a matinee - with few people around the chance of one being a jerk is fairly small. (The other reason is I'm cheap.)

I'd like to add one myself. Anyone caught with a laser point in the theater will have the pointer crushed, preferably along with the offending hand that was holding it.

MovieBob:
Oh, Behave!

MovieBob's 8 commandments for movie theater etiquette.

Read Full Article

bob im with you till number 8. im sorry but if the movies over and there is no reason to beleave theres a end of credits reveal(like any marvel movie anyone who leaves before the credits is an idiot) then i really dont care that you want to see the credits its not my job to make sure you can see who wrote the music. If you plan to sit through it all postion yourself were people leaveing dont ubstruct your veiw.
(please forgive any spelling errors my spell check broke and i have dyslexia, thank you)

i find nr 6. funny, because it basically means you can't go to a movie theater until your child is old enough to stay at home (lets say when they're 10 years old).

how would you respond if someone were to tell you you can't go to a movie theater for the next decade?

krellen:

1nfinite_Cros5:
I honestly HATE those people who quote things MST3K-style during the film. WAIT UNTIL YOU PURCHASE THE MOVIE AND WATCH IT AT HOME.

I'll note that this was not one of Bob's rules, and for good reason: sometimes the snark is the proper reaction to what's on film. Not always, but sometimes it is.

Woopsy Daisy.

From Page 3 of the Article:
To put this in a more specific sense: hipsters sitting behind me at the War Horse screening? The reason I didn't sit through the credits was that if I had to listen to you comedic geniuses yammering on and using "sentimental" as a context-free criticism (especially since the word you're actually looking for is "maudlin") and mocking an actor's sad voice, I was probably going to strangle you with your own "ironically"-twee scarf. Ooh, you think John Williams' music is manipulative? You must have traveled far and seen much hardship, to be so profoundly jaded and untouchable by mere sentiment at so young an age. Sorry, no. Pauline Kael got to be cynical about Hollywood sentiment because she'd studied the medium her entire damn life - you're cynical about it because you're quoting an Adult Swim skit. Zip it. The only people your age who're allowed to be jaded about anything are carrying rifles in Iraq - you're carrying a thrift store (style, you bought it at Hot Topic) satchel in a mall. Shut up.

Another note: Snark is never an appropriate reaction when you're sharing a venue with a lot of other people who may very well be enjoying the film, because all those people are going to hear is "yak yak yak yak yak yak" when they're trying to stay immersed in whatever they're watching.

Cinemas are not venues for a fucking public performance, there's no excuse whatsoever for making wry comments about whatever is unfolding on the screen when the very act of doing so would mess up other people's fun in a place where everyone is supposed to either laugh, cry, gasp, or sit the fuck down and keep quiet unless absolutely necessary.

SilverUchiha:
I'm sort of on the fence about the texting thing. I get that for the actual movie, you'd want to put your phone away. But for the previews, what if you are meeting with people who are wondering where you are at? They are trying to get to your theater or something? I think we can be allowed to text them locations or what's up or whatever. Especially if you turn the backlight down a lot.

Presumably you will have agreed on the cinema and movie in advance, you will be told what auditorium you're in. Walk in. If you're in there already and you see your friends come up the stairs wave quietly.

Furthermore, what about emergency situations? Not emergencies for ME, but for other people who desire my advice or help? Like say there is a computer problem and their homework is due that same night. I think being allowed to step out and take a call is acceptable there.

You're not the only person in the world who can fix a computer. If they're stuck they can go to an internet cafe. It's an hour and a half to two hours. We were able to survive for generations without mobile phones surely we can do it again for the length of a movie. If for some reason you can't, put the phone on vibrate and wait until you're out of the theatre to answer it. Rule 3 applies here.

Honestly, I went to see 50/50 the other day. I went in the afternoon on a thursday because I wanted to sit in silence and enjoy the movie. If you haven't seen it there's some pretty intense moments, which can be kind of ruined by the light pollution from tiny screens dotted around the theatre.

Snooder:

...Yes, it is sometimes important to be in communication with someone else during a movie. Emergencies happen. Or maybe you're just trying to find out where your friends are because you took separate cars to the movie and one of you was late...

...But some guy checking his email for a couple of seconds to make sure that the buzz he got wasn't a fire burning down his house or something really important isn't something to tar and feather anyone over.

Quick conundrum: what about when this guy goes to bed or leaves his phone at home when going for a quiet walk or lends it to someone who needs it or has a bath/shower or turns it off for some peace and quiet? surely if emergencies are such a big part of this guy's life then he should have two spare batteries, a mini-amplifier, a waterproof cover and a spare phone secreted away in his rectum and a mini-amp for it so it always wakes him up to make sure he never misses that single, all-important life-saving message about an emergency and should not, by any means, be bothering people in a cinema when he's well aware that he has to keep his phone on lest it be a tiny messenger of imminent doom that keeps his life from falling apart

I'm not sure why I phrased that as a question. Grammar has no place in this post, it merely came here to die.

Snooder:

1. Honestly, the 'light pollution' isn't all that bad. Seriously, I have never been seriously bothered by the miniscule amount of light coming from a phone, even one sitting right beside me. Frankly, if your attention span is low enough that you absolutely cannot pay attention to the giant 20 foot (estimated) screen in front of you because of a few lumens coming from a 5" or smaller screen several feet away from you, that's a personal problem. Filter that crap out the way you filter out the exit signs.

Mostly subjective: You can't know how distracting your phone light is going to be to other people. There's also this issue: If everyone whips their phone out we're going to light up the whole seating area and dim the screen. Unless we begin operating on a system by which a minimum number of people can light up their phones and anyone else who wants to use it has to wait in a que until a space is free, in order to ensure we keep light pollution to a minimum. And let's be honest, enforcing such a system would be a hassle.

Even more so in my own little dream-version of it, because in that one the cinemas pay a stern-looking ex-headmaster to stand in the projection booth loudly uttering wry, passive-aggressive insults at anyone attempting to defy the carefully-established system. Alternatively, the janitors nail an incredibly graphic photo of a violent sex crime on the cieling in dim colours, to ensure that it's only visible when the light level reaches a certian That way potential dissenters will keep their luminosity to themselves in order to avoid traumatising everyone in the area. This will, of course, be an exercise in futility because when the light go up there will be a whole lot of screaming. I see that as a positive. While many innocents may go home in a cold sweat, a lot of people who were thinking about breaking the rules get the same punishment as well, ensuring that no cinema-related thoughtcrime will go unpunished.

Rest assured: there's a very good reason why the rules of the privately-owned establishment who's rules you agreed to abide by when paying tell you to turn the fucker off when the film starts. At least, I think that's the point I started trying to make ages ago.

I work in a cinema, and I approve of this message.

However I really don't care for customers who stay until the end of the credits. You know what if you REALLY want to know where it was filmed or what kind of lenses they used then look it up online when you get home. I've got 5 minutes to clear up all the popcorn, sweet wrappers, coffee cups, and used tissues that people leave on the floor with a broken brush and pan, by myself. And after a 12-13 hour shift I just want to go home and eat my dinner.

Though I'd also like to add a couple more rules that people should follow in a movie theatre:

9: At least try to clean up any rubbish you leave behind. Seriously. I know Popcorn has a tendency to go everywhere (which is why Cinemas store it in a special heated cage to placate it), but coffee cups, Popcorn cups, drinks bottles, and apple cores should go in the bin. It's basic etiquette, and it means the theatre is cleaner for everyone. This goes double if you brought your own food in.

10: If there is a problem, tell a member of staff. If someone's using a phone, or making noise, or something's up with the film, and it is bothering you go find a staff member, and they'll sort it out. the cinema I work at has, at most, 3 members of staff on at one time (usually 2), and this includes the projectionist. We have other things to do besides sit in on every showing of every film, and so we can't tell if someone's being unruly. We endeavour to check in when we can, and shows that are likely to be trouble will likely have someone sitting in (I have seen the last three Twilight movies MULTIPLE times in the same day; I don't get paid enough for that). If you come out at the end and complain then we can't do anything about it.

EDIT: Currently the "Turn off your Phone" message in our theatre is done by The Muppets. If you ignore Kermit the Frog telling you not to use your phone then we are well within our rights to slap it out of your hand and crush it under our boot.

image

thenumberthirteen:
I work in a cinema, and I approve of this message.

However I really don't care for customers who stay until the end of the credits. You know what if you REALLY want to know where it was filmed or what kind of lenses they used then look it up online when you get home. I've got 5 minutes to clear up all the popcorn, sweet wrappers, coffee cups, and used tissues that people leave on the floor with a broken brush and pan, by myself. And after a 12-13 hour shift I just want to go home and eat my dinner.

Though I'd also like to add a couple more rules that people should follow in a movie theatre:

9: At least try to clean up any rubbish you leave behind. Seriously. I know Popcorn has a tendency to go everywhere (which is why Cinemas store it in a special heated cage to placate it), but coffee cups, Popcorn cups, drinks bottles, and apple cores should go in the bin. It's basic etiquette, and it means the theatre is cleaner for everyone. This goes double if you brought your own food in.

10: If there is a problem, tell a member of staff. If someone's using a phone, or making noise, or something's up with the film, and it is bothering you go find a staff member, and they'll sort it out. the cinema I work at has, at most, 3 members of staff on at one time (usually 2), and this includes the projectionist. We have other things to do besides sit in on every showing of every film, and so we can't tell if someone's being unruly. We endeavour to check in when we can, and shows that are likely to be trouble will likely have someone sitting in (I have seen the last three Twilight movies MULTIPLE times in the same day; I don't get paid enough for that). If you come out at the end and complain then we can't do anything about it.

God yes, it has always amazed me how messy people are in the cinema. I mean nowhere else in the world would anyone even consider throwing that amount of rubbish on the ground and leaving it for someone else (me) to clean up. I know it's my job to clean up after customers but seriously do you shit on the bonnet before taking your car to get cleaned?

EDIT:

11 Leave the poor prick behind the counter alone. He didn't set the prices, he knows they're high, he earns less an hour than it costs to buy a medium popcorn and coke.

12 If it's busy sit the fuck beside someone. Leaving one seat between you and the next customer down is no good to anyone, at least leave two.

Spot1990:
God yes, it has always amazed me how messy people are in the cinema. I mean nowhere else in the world would anyone even consider throwing that amount of rubbish on the ground and leaving it for someone else (me) to clean up. I know it's my job to clean up after customers but seriously do you shit on the bonnet before taking your car to get cleaned?

It's something about cinemas. People don't care. I'm just glad we don't sell Nachos because then I'd be crawling through melted cheese every day.

For example when we serve tea and Coffe we let customers put in their own milk and/or sugar (mainly because it saves us lots of time), and we have a bowl of clean teaspoons for stirring and taking teabags out. EVERY day there is at least one person who after using a spoon just puts it back with the clean ones. And we even have people put teabags in the spoon bowl with the spoons. This means that we then have to clean ALL the spoons by hand and put them out again for the next guy to do the same. I hope I never get invited to these peoples' houses for dinner as they evidently just put all their dirty dishes back in the cupboard for next time.

Good rules Bob. The points you talk about are the main thing that puts me off mainstream cinemas. I try and catch things in smaller local venues when I can, or go and non-busy times if I have to visit a multiplex.

The only thing I don't do is switch my phone off. It's on silent (not vibrate, completely silent), and it stays in my pocket. I, too, detest the light pollution of phones used in cinemas. But on the other hand my phone does take an age to switch on and off. I know it's not a exactly a major problem to wait for it. But it's easily avoided by just leaving it on and silent, so I do this.

When I went to see the reboot of Nightmare on Elm Street, the person in front of us brought a 5-year-old. The kid was scared out of their mind, but the parents didn't take the kid out of the theater!

Oh god this reminded me of the time I went to see Deathly Hallows pt 2 with my sister. There was a woman a few rows in front of us who let out one of the most annoying laughs ever at two points during the funeral at the start. It was quite obvious that this was going to continue. So the third time she let one out my sister took it, replicated it, then turned it up to 11. We never heard a single noise from her afterwards and I think I heard someone clapping for my sister.

Anyways I agree with all of the things moviebob specifies, movie theaters are supposed to be public, yes, but they are also supposed to be about the movie. If you are doing something that distracts someone then you should not be in the theater.

I can only think of one really annoying movie-going incident, and, while I can't remember what it was I saw, I do remember the jackass who wouldn't stop fake screaming at some stupid jump-scare. And the guy didn't stop doing it for another few seconds, after the movie moved on to the next scene.

And then there was this one other time when I saw Captain America, this family's kids wouldn't keep quiet. The father was trying his hardest to keep them under control, but it didn't help that they were two rows behind me. They would occasionally act restless, but were quiet throughout most of the movie.

OK firstly as a parent of small children I always have my phone on (silent) to hear from our babysitter when I am at the cinema. I take an aisle seat, and if my phone starts vibrating, and it is our sitter 'll go outside and answer it. No problems with that I hope. We also have Cry Baby sessions at our local cinema where people with kids can take them to see a film, usually a kids film or at least a G rated film, but hey you can take your kids.

Otherwise a story. A friend of mine won tickets to go and see William Friedkin's Sorcerer in a never seen in Australia director's cut, with a Q&A with William Friedkin afterwards. His girlfriend didn't want to go so he gave a ticket to me. Awesome, 'cause I love Friedkin. Anyway Friedkin does an introduction and the lights go out.

Five minutes into the film a phone rings. Now if that happened to me, I'd be frantically trying to cut it off and crawl under my seat in shame at not having switched my phone to silent. Instead this person answers the phone! And has a conversation at the top of their voice.

Hi.
Yeah, I'm watching a movie.
A movie.
Yeah, I'm in the cinema.
*louder* Watching a movie!
No, it's just started.
That's alright, no bother.
Yeah I can do that.
Ok, I'll meet you for a drink there.
Yep.
See you.
Bye.

All this while the director of the film, and a great director at that is sitting in the cinema. Fucking arrogance.

This was a pretty fun read, and a topic that sadly never gets old. It seems your commandments have inspired confessions....

1,2,3: Yes - though most cell phones have a silent "vibrate" function. I use that and check the display quickly to see if it's important, then leave to follow up or just ignore it.

EDIT: A live theatre I go to precedes every play with a recorded message about giving a certain amount of money to charity for every show that goes uninterrupted by phones. Movie cinemas should incorporate this (if some already have, I didn't know).

4. Sometimes it can't be helped. I laughed out loud many times at Revenge Of The Sith when I probably shouldn't have. I'm not alone on that one.

5. Can work, though rarely (and I know critics will always hate it, regardless). Trying to start the "slow clap" during Ghost Rider when Nick Cage said, "The Devil may have my soul, but he doesn't have my spirit." garnered real laughter from an audience that was embarassed to have already paid to be there.

6. Parents: Check online for theatres in your area that have special matinee showings for parents with infants. They play the movie at a lower volume, with the lights raised a little, and everyone there has babies so crying and feeding is an expected occurance that no one will be disturbed by. These exist.

7. I took my 3-year-old to see Puss In Boots a few weeks ago... she was the youngest there AND the most well-behaved. Just bragging ;) But seriously, know your kid and use good judgement. ...also, 3D is a bad idea for a first moviegoing experience.

8. These are the people who should get special seats.

Xanthious:

I love her indignation at being expected to act like a human being.

I also love the fact she thinks being in the USA means you can text in theaters.

thenumberthirteen:

However I really don't care for customers who stay until the end of the credits. You know what if you REALLY want to know where it was filmed or what kind of lenses they used then look it up online when you get home. I've got 5 minutes to clear up all the popcorn, sweet wrappers, coffee cups, and used tissues that people leave on the floor with a broken brush and pan, by myself. And after a 12-13 hour shift I just want to go home and eat my dinner.

You hear that, Moviebob? No Samuel L Jackson for you!

DressedInRags:
Another note: Snark is never an appropriate reaction when you're sharing a venue with a lot of other people who may very well be enjoying the film, because all those people are going to hear is "yak yak yak yak yak yak" when they're trying to stay immersed in whatever they're watching.

Constant commentary on the film is not the same thing as snarky commentary to a particular incident, which is what I was talking about. The "no talking in the theatre EVER" is wrong, because sometimes that is the proper reaction.

For instance, at midichlorians the proper response is to go "WHAT?!" as loudly as possible. And anyone that says otherwise is wrong.

krellen:

DressedInRags:
Another note: Snark is never an appropriate reaction when you're sharing a venue with a lot of other people who may very well be enjoying the film, because all those people are going to hear is "yak yak yak yak yak yak" when they're trying to stay immersed in whatever they're watching.

Constant commentary on the film is not the same thing as snarky commentary to a particular incident, which is what I was talking about. The "no talking in the theatre EVER" is wrong, because sometimes that is the proper reaction.

For instance, at midichlorians the proper response is to go "WHAT?!" as loudly as possible. And anyone that says otherwise is wrong.

...

Touche.

And here's some low-content post filler.

Moviebob, First off, I have to say I am digging the list.

I have been very lucky, since I was a little kid, to be able to go to movies, so whenever I go to movies, I follow the rules, in fact, I try to go beyond the rules.

I put my phone on vibrate, I don't check my phone, even if the movie sucks (You have no idea how hard it was to not do that during Meet The Spartans after seeing it a 2nd time).

I can't say the same for kids in movie theaters. I have had kids damage my going experiences twice, once at The Dark Knight (Little girls saying "Shit!" every 10 minutes for the first fifty minutes isn't funny, no matter who you are) and another at Inglorious Basterds.

I have also made my apologies before In a post last year about my older brother and his wife bringing their triplets to Toy Story 3. It was that kind of stuff that made me hate myself for even thinking of going to the movie, but it made me a better person, and told me that bringing a baby to a movie is a bad idea even while I knew it was a bad idea.

In any case, great list, Moviebob.

SonicWaffle:

Moeez:
This is the only list you need.

Pffft. THIS is the only list you need!

Haha I love that one too, especially the bit about explaining the plot. My sister always wants to ask because she might get confused, and I'm like, "why are you here if you can't understand the movie?".

I don't necessarily agree with using your phone to tell your friends where you are in the theater. When you go to a movie, yes it is a social experience, but you are not there to talk to your friends, you are there to watch the movie. I tell this to my friends anytime we are forced to sit apart and they start trying to get everyone in the theater to adjust seats so we can sit together. If you need to discuss the movie wait until its done. There is no reason to talk during the movie, a small amount of "Oh did you see that." or "Oh that movie looks good." is acceptable, anything other than that and I personally would have you removed from the theater. As for the one person who told the story about that rowdy group of teenagers, I would have personally removed from the theater myself.

octafish:
OK firstly as a parent of small children I always have my phone on (silent) to hear from our babysitter when I am at the cinema. I take an aisle seat, and if my phone starts vibrating, and it is our sitter 'll go outside and answer it. No problems with that I hope. We also have Cry Baby sessions at our local cinema where people with kids can take them to see a film, usually a kids film or at least a G rated film, but hey you can take your kids.

Otherwise a story. A friend of mine won tickets to go and see William Friedkin's Sorcerer in a never seen in Australia director's cut, with a Q&A with William Friedkin afterwards. His girlfriend didn't want to go so he gave a ticket to me. Awesome, 'cause I love Friedkin. Anyway Friedkin does an introduction and the lights go out.

Five minutes into the film a phone rings. Now if that happened to me, I'd be frantically trying to cut it off and crawl under my seat in shame at not having switched my phone to silent. Instead this person answers the phone! And has a conversation at the top of their voice.

Hi.
Yeah, I'm watching a movie.
A movie.
Yeah, I'm in the cinema.
*louder* Watching a movie!
No, it's just started.
That's alright, no bother.
Yeah I can do that.
Ok, I'll meet you for a drink there.
Yep.
See you.
Bye.

All this while the director of the film, and a great director at that is sitting in the cinema. Fucking arrogance.

You'd expect someone who's so intent to come to the cinema for a Friedkin director's cut of an old movie screening to not be so inconsiderate. I guess even movie buffs can be douches.

As long as I can watch the movie pants-less all of those rules are fine.

thenumberthirteen:
I work in a cinema, and I approve of this message.

However I really don't care for customers who stay until the end of the credits. You know what if you REALLY want to know where it was filmed or what kind of lenses they used then look it up online when you get home. I've got 5 minutes to clear up all the popcorn, sweet wrappers, coffee cups, and used tissues that people leave on the floor with a broken brush and pan, by myself. And after a 12-13 hour shift I just want to go home and eat my dinner.

Oh no, then you'll hate me because I love the credits where I get to see who specifically did the cool thing I liked in the movie: cinematography, music, editing, visual FX, cast. Also, I just like being able to take it all in after a particularly powerful movie.

I know IMDB lists them all now, so I might start changing that behaviour. Did not know the staff hates my kind of moviegoer.

To me you can start the third world war in the cinema next to where I sit for all I care. BUT if you even try to disturb me I'm gonna make your sorry ass leave one way or another....

I got to many annoying stories to keep track... Including (but not exclusive to) seat kickers, kids/babies, small bladder/smokers, texting/calling/etc, crunchy/unnecessary loud snack, throwing of snacks, "explaining the movie",fire alarms, complainers of how bad the movie is (before end), spilling of stuff on me, couples somewhat to eager (and loud)...late comers, people unable to read seating ticket..
And my personal favorite: translating of movie for a kid, yes trying to TRANSLATE THE WHOLE MOVIE..(Pixar movie subbed, the dubbed where on almost the same time)
Yes I sometimes go to a lot of movies....

Seriously though it is surprising how many people lack common sense and courtesy of not disturbing others... Since most people seem to agree you do not ruining other peoples movie experience and/or peace...

Knight Anon:
As long as I can watch the movie pants-less all of those rules are fine.

Fine by me ;P, just tell me what seat you used and I could hardly care less...

I miss those overly elaborate "please turn off your phone" trailers all of the major theatres had a few years ago. Whatever happened to those?

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