Jimquisition: Taking Videogames Seriously

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true thing. i agree.
if you like something , and someone else does not, you do not have to make 'em like it, for as long as you can enjoy it.
don't have less fun, just because somebody else tells you what you're enjoying is not serious.
fun does not have to be serious. and i think that sometimes is THE point.
well, ofcourse you can enjoy solving math-solutions that affect reality, or just inside a videogame in order to complete a puzzle or a quest.
and in the same way anybody can enjoy slinging birds at piggs.
both can be taken serious, but not both will affect reality in the same way.
one might become an expert in solving complex math-solutions really fast, but the other one will be an expert as firing birds with a slingshot.

in the end we all have to eat, breath, sleep and other things in order to be.
what each one uses this given lifetime for is up to the individual person.
so take your own time, and do what YOU want.
others may not take you or your way of life serious, but do you?

sidenote: better with sunglases. fits the immage.

Zac Smith:
I liked Alien 3 and Resurrection, there no where near as bad as people make them out to be

Yep, I agreed with that, and most other things in the episode. Aside from one small detail...

I specifically remember alot of the games as art debate popping up around the judgement in california about banning violent videogames. The thing is, if gaming is seen as a legitimit(sp?) art form, then it's covered by the fifth amendment (I think it was the fifth, I'm english, so not too big on american law) and therefore can't be banned.

So, to who do gamers want to take games seriously? For the large majority, I'd probably say it was the government.

SageRuffin:

TheDooD:
This subject kinda works into the shit that's going down with MLG and the FGC. MLG wants the rowdy world of fighting games to go to a more professional stance so the FGC can get more money and be more taken seriously. To me I don't care if the community isn't TV or family friendly.

A frequenter of SRK I see. And one that is not choking on their own sexual fluids at that. A rare combination indeed. I commend you sir/madam.

And the crazy thing about that argument is how some people are saying that apparently both players and commentators alike need to, say, dress in suits and whatnot. For a fucking video game. I can agree with keeping the language PG-13 since you may get the odd kid or young teen or some such (e.g. Noah the Prodigy), but having to dress up for a tournament is just overkill and unnecessary.

It's overkill for sure. When I gone to my first local major it was pretty much a party, where you'll enjoy yourself first. I can see with the young kids and shit tone down the language a bit. dressing in suits and dress clothes for a fighting game is crazy. Tournaments can go for hours, then there's the after party you don't want your good shit fucked up all sweating and shit.

Overall MLG is trying to make video games pretty much shit people will watch on TV but the way they're going about it is boring. Yet if properly run the vulgar party atmosphere of the FGC would pull more viewers because they're more down to earth.

my little opinion is that the reason they arent taken seriously is because of the name "video GAME" and what we use to describe the act of using them "play". it tends to bring people back to treating them like toys which is why you get the fox news lot complaining about this game or that, because adults dont partake of kids things.

i still remember seeing a fox news interview with an "expert" condeming a couple of city building games because they rewarded the player for using renewable energy generation and that was too liberal. but in the end they were dismissing them because no 8 yo would play them..again the perception that video games are toys only played by 8yo males.

things will change however.. give it another 15 or 20 years and todays gamers are the policy makers. where president Dovahkiin orders the army around like an rts and wonders why he cant select a solder for a first person shooter mode

dashiz94:
God, if there is one thing I can't stand about the Escapist it's how caustic people get.

So you were making wild, incorrect, and belligerent statements, but the one thing you cannot stand is when people on the Escapist get caustic.

I see.

Let's just go through the rest quickly, as I wouldn't want to be called "caustic" again.

Any maybe it didn't lead to the actuall banning of books, the argument about keeping kids indoors was used back then as a criticism of books since farming was so integral to their livelihood.

False. The New England Puritans viewed literacy and education in such as very important. While, again, they would not fancy certain topics, the whole "they criticised books because farming was integral" thing is just plain wrong.

Maybe you're talking about others, but as pertains to American history (the history you're trying to invoke by and large) they are the only group of consequence.

While I do not praise all their ways, the Puritan colonists did have many solid traits I would find admirable. Their dedication to literacy was one of them. The modern perception is one of people who hated everything and saw witches in their own shadows, but that's as accurate as Columbus discovering the earth wasn't flat, or American natives scalping people, or WWE being real.

This kind of ties into the "games being taken as art" argument as well, but as it stands games are viewed by contemporary society as a toy. Movies, music, and books have gained respect as "artistic mediums" and therefore can display what otherwise would be normally considered obscene or controversial without fear of the MAJORITY from banning it, because they recognize it as art and therefore it has a, for lack of a better word, privilege to do so. Video games are still seen merely as toys. If say, for example, a new toy came out on the market that had something controversial, guaranteed it would receive a public outcry because it doesn't have the same status as a book would. Even if the message was well intended, it still would be removed from the market because it would come across merely as obscene, not artistic. Games face that similar problem too.

Games are legally and constitutionally art, as recognised by the Supreme Court.

This is all that matters as far as your argument goes.

I understand that these mediums will always have people trying to censor and limit them, but when games are "taken seriously" we won't have to worry when these people complain, because society at large will just see them as fun Nazis and nothing more.

If that was true, Book banning wouldn't have popular support. It does, you're wrong, end of.

The morality police are still going after this other media, people dismiss pretty much every genre of music, and films have all the credibility of Fantastic Four ROUSes or any other blockbuster.

I agree with Jim. The gaming community has been more or less independent from the outsiders and now that more and more people who already grew up with games being there for them are maturing and entering into managing and leading positions, the future of the game industry seems quite bright. The modern people from outside the gaming world do not take games seriously because they have been brought up in a world that had no videogames. That is why they tend to look down upon everything that is not usual and familiar to them. But with more and more gamers entering the "adult world", we can well expect this tendency to end in about a decade or even sooner.

mjc0961:
Bravo, bravo! I hate when people spew that crap too. "Oh we can't have fun games anymore, we need serious games so games will be taken seriously." Fuck you, games are entertainment and entertainment is meant to be fun.

Why do you think fun and serious are necessarily different things?
That's what I don't get about your crowd.
There is nothing wrong with a Serious Sam every once in awhile, but I don't understand the idea that every fun thing is not serious.
I mean, Bioshock was fun, wasn't it???
What is one serious game (that people actually played and my crowd supports) that is not fun?
I, personally, want games to be both in general with a niche for silly games, not the other way around.

Yeah, why would anyone want non-gamers to take gaming 'seriously' ...what possible effect could it have on the industry and us gamers if the majority of the population thinks our preferred form of entertainment is a toy for kids and immature manchildren...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.335319-Syndicate-Banned-in-Australia-UPDATED

ooooooooooohhhhhh...

This is probably the first time Jim being OFF BASE in this one. Seriously Jim, your argument is very weak and I'll give you two names why.

Six Days in Fallujah, and Imagination is the Only Escape. Come on Jim, and come on people, if you don't think the mainstream public/media matters, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG! Because of them, gamers everywhere have lost out on those two games and the US Government had to have a freaking voting in the supreme court if Video Games can even be considered an art form.

Jim, I still love your videos, but you were just wrong here, and I had a feeling you were going to be wrong the second I saw that video pop up with that title.

Two Words: SOPA

If the Congressmen, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, etc do not take gaming seriously, then it might go away.

Ponder that for a second. Imagine if the FB-fucking-I could come shut down the Jimquisition, Zero Punctuation, etc based on nothing more than a hunch that you used illegally obtained clips of video games, or talked about their IP without proper licencing.

The escapist would go away. Every user-sourced infodump for games would go away. Skyrim Nexus, Wowhead, mobafire, Curse gaming, etc. Gone. Poof. Buh-bye. All because some politicians in cheap suits don't take gaming seriously.

And SOPA is hardly the only legislation to be proposed that would kick gaming in the nuts, crippling it for life. It's just the most recent, and the most widely known.

Of course, this isn't to say that every game must be serious, or held to high-art standards. Far from it. I love me some Rock of Ages, Orcs must Die, Serious Sam, etc... but we need to take these games as seriously as any other entertainment avenue. If Harry Potter and Twilight get to exist and be taken seriously, there's no excuse for something like Skyrim to be brushed aside as "just a game."

Video games are going through a similar phase that the cinema industry did in it's first few decades. Just let it grow, ignore the shadowy organisation of social recognition and enjoy the games.

Fuck Braid; Super Mario Galaxy 2 is art.

lowkey_jotunn:
Two Words: SOPA

If the Congressmen, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, etc do not take gaming seriously, then it might go away.

Ponder that for a second. Imagine if the FB-fucking-I could come shut down the Jimquisition, Zero Punctuation, etc based on nothing more than a hunch that you used illegally obtained clips of video games, or talked about their IP without proper licencing.

The escapist would go away. Every user-sourced infodump for games would go away. Skyrim Nexus, Wowhead, mobafire, Curse gaming, etc. Gone. Poof. Buh-bye. All because some politicians in cheap suits don't take gaming seriously.

And SOPA is hardly the only legislation to be proposed that would kick gaming in the nuts, crippling it for life. It's just the most recent, and the most widely known.

Of course, this isn't to say that every game must be serious, or held to high-art standards. Far from it. I love me some Rock of Ages, Orcs must Die, Serious Sam, etc... but we need to take these games as seriously as any other entertainment avenue. If Harry Potter and Twilight get to exist and be taken seriously, there's no excuse for something like Skyrim to be brushed aside as "just a game."

... two words?

i really enjoyed alien 3 and alien resurrection as well dont know why alot of people hated them

Great video, Jim, and we're in agreement about the opinions of people that don't fucking matter. You're comfortable in your enjoyment for Alien 3 and Resurrection, that's great and fuck anyone who says otherwise. I thought they were okay films as well. All too often I somehow get sucked into useless debates about movies or games I like that fall under a general consensus of disdain by most everyone else; a lot of people hate these things because it's simply the "cool" thing to do without forming their own opinions or they're just clingy complaining dipshit fans. I hate those people. Consequently, it tends to be my fellow nerds/gamers; typically the ones who think far too highly of themselves.

That being said, I would like to follow in turn and state that I like Super Mario Bros. The Movie. I found it to be a really artistic and fun film! I saw it in theatres in 1993 and I immediately fell in love with it. And then a couple years back, I was at an Anime Convention and had a grown-ass adult man dressed as typical videogame Luigi (complete with shitty felt moustache) give me shit because I professed my enjoyment with it. I could think of nothing more fitting than to just smile brightly at him after he was done and reiterate, "Really? I love that movie."

Wookie 1:
That needs to change, it doesnt matter if we take us seriously really, it matters if the important within society does.

One question: why?

Zom-B:

Wookie 1:
That needs to change, it doesnt matter if we take us seriously really, it matters if the important within society does.

One question: why?

The important within our society has huge powers over us and this industry as a whole, you only have to look at the various laws proposed by various groups over the years to see what I mean, games are currently not taken even vaguely seriously by the major decision makers.

There was a brief blink and you'd miss it tax break for the games industry in the United Kingdom, much as there remains for Films, nobody even vaguely suggested touching the film industry's tax break and yet its worth less to the economy as far as I know.

You can also see this in the Senatorial report earlier on protesting aginst the spending on the preservation of gaming history.

I could list dozens of examples, its only because the industry gets the occasional bit of serious treatment that things like the Californian legislation did not end up succesful in the Supreme Court.

Wookie 1:

Zom-B:

Wookie 1:
That needs to change, it doesnt matter if we take us seriously really, it matters if the important within society does.

One question: why?

The important within our society has huge powers over us and this industry as a whole, you only have to look at the various laws proposed by various groups over the years to see what I mean, games are currently not taken even vaguely seriously by the major decision makers.

There was a brief blink and you'd miss it tax break for the games industry in the United Kingdom, much as there remains for Films, nobody even vaguely suggested touching the film industry's tax break and yet its worth less to the economy as far as I know.

You can also see this in the Senatorial report earlier on protesting aginst the spending on the preservation of gaming history.

I could list dozens of examples, its only because the industry gets the occasional bit of serious treatment that things like the Californian legislation did not end up succesful in the Supreme Court.

Utterly disagree. There's lots of creative product that isn't beholden to some influential group of rich people in order to be "good" or "taken seriously".

If all you want is mainstream acceptance so that the video game industry can continue to shit out sequels and soulless triple A FPSes, that's fine, but the industry doesn't need to be taken seriously to survive, put out great games or have free reign in terms of content.

What you want is the a video game Hollywood. I don't, because on average Hollywood makes the world's shittiest movies.

Zom-B:

Wookie 1:

Zom-B:

One question: why?

The important within our society has huge powers over us and this industry as a whole, you only have to look at the various laws proposed by various groups over the years to see what I mean, games are currently not taken even vaguely seriously by the major decision makers.

There was a brief blink and you'd miss it tax break for the games industry in the United Kingdom, much as there remains for Films, nobody even vaguely suggested touching the film industry's tax break and yet its worth less to the economy as far as I know.

You can also see this in the Senatorial report earlier on protesting aginst the spending on the preservation of gaming history.

I could list dozens of examples, its only because the industry gets the occasional bit of serious treatment that things like the Californian legislation did not end up succesful in the Supreme Court.

Utterly disagree. There's lots of creative product that isn't beholden to some influential group of rich people in order to be "good" or "taken seriously".

If all you want is mainstream acceptance so that the video game industry can continue to shit out sequels and soulless triple A FPSes, that's fine, but the industry doesn't need to be taken seriously to survive, put out great games or have free reign in terms of content.

What you want is the a video game Hollywood. I don't, because on average Hollywood makes the world's shittiest movies.

You have utterly misunderstood me, I dont the industry to be Hollywoodised and I agree most big blockbustery type movies made there are bad. My point was more that while games are not taken seriously they are threatened, as much as we dont like to think about it we are outside of the major accepted hobbies for a great many within the elite of our nations, that may not matter to most and it probably shouldnt. But, it threatens us much more than any of us would like when you still have people like Senator Yee from California or Keith Vaz in Britain who will fail to see why our industry is justified in existing. I recall reading a statistic that of the 650 MP's in the current Parliament fewer than 100 had understanding properly of video games and of those who had voted the majority had voted on early day motions condemning the industry as a whole.

So yes, I do think we need that level of beign taken seriously not to end up at a legal dead end. Or (this bit is personal opinion and unsupported)like Comic Books where they had to rename to graphic novels and still sturggle to get more than token acknowledgement as legitimate.

Anyway You misunderstood my point entirely. Its not so that we can become like movies in the lack of creativity its that we can become like them in the sense that its only crazies who believe they should be censored unto death and possibly made illegal, in a THINK OF THE CHILDREN sort of way.

Reading up Jove a couple of posts up the page makes my point wonderfully:

Jove:
Six Days in Fallujah, and Imagination is the Only Escape. Come on Jim, and come on people, if you don't think the mainstream public/media matters, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG! Because of them, gamers everywhere have lost out on those two games and the US Government had to have a freaking voting in the supreme court if Video Games can even be considered an art form.

I could add more to that list, also look at Australia, Syndicate is now banned there because key decision makers believe that it should not see the light of Austrailian day, doesnt matter how much YOU like it, the government has just come in and said no, you cannot play this game no matter how much you may like your hobby.

That, that right there is why we need to be taken seriously.

(also read the Lowkey post Directly below the Jove one, in which he also makes my point involving SOPA).

Wookie 1:

You have utterly misunderstood me, I dont the industry to be Hollywoodised and I agree most big blockbustery type movies made there are bad. My point was more that while games are not taken seriously they are threatened, as much as we dont like to think about it we are outside of the major accepted hobbies for a great many within the elite of our nations, that may not matter to most and it probably shouldnt. But, it threatens us much more than any of us would like when you still have people like Senator Yee from California or Keith Vaz in Britain who will fail to see why our industry is justified in existing. I recall reading a statistic that of the 650 MP's in the current Parliament fewer than 100 had understanding properly of video games and of those who had voted the majority had voted on early day motions condemning the industry as a whole.

So yes, I do think we need that level of beign taken seriously not to end up at a legal dead end. Or (this bit is personal opinion and unsupported)like Comic Books where they had to rename to graphic novels and still sturggle to get more than token acknowledgement as legitimate.

Anyway You misunderstood my point entirely. Its not so that we can become like movies in the lack of creativity its that we can become like them in the sense that its only crazies who believe they should be censored unto death and possibly made illegal, in a THINK OF THE CHILDREN sort of way.

Reading up Jove a couple of posts up the page makes my point wonderfully:

Jove:
Six Days in Fallujah, and Imagination is the Only Escape. Come on Jim, and come on people, if you don't think the mainstream public/media matters, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG! Because of them, gamers everywhere have lost out on those two games and the US Government had to have a freaking voting in the supreme court if Video Games can even be considered an art form.

I could add more to that list, also look at Australia, Syndicate is now banned there because key decision makers believe that it should not see the light of Austrailian day, doesnt matter how much YOU like it, the government has just come in and said no, you cannot play this game no matter how much you may like your hobby.

That, that right there is why we need to be taken seriously.

(also read the Lowkey post Directly below the Jove one, in which he also makes my point involving SOPA).

Ok, I did misunderstand your point. You've made yourself clear, however, I still disagree that having the approval of certain members of society is supremely important.

Just like movies and other sorts of media, video games will grow and change, without the approval of the mainstream, politicians or the "decision makers". While certain elements may remain underground for longer, or not be seen as commercially viable, the long and short of it is is that censorship in any form is usually not tolerated.

Games like Six Days in Fallujah as mentioned by Jove (By Jove! Get it?) weren't cancelled because "decision makers" were against it, it was because people did take it seriously, and felt it was inappropriate. Mostly veterans complained and Konami decided not to publish it and so the developer couldn't get the funding or find another publisher to make it (so far). I see this less as a "videogames aren't taken seriously" issue and more as that in this instance they were taken too seriously. People take it seriously when some sociopath shoots up a mall or school and they find a copy of Modern Warfare in his home. People don't find a Schwarzenegger movie in a guys home and say that movies make people kill. At least no one reasonable does. Six Days in Fallujah was not a mainstream public or media controversy, it was a lot of veterans feeling like the game was inappropriate and Konami caved.

As for games like the Syndicate being banned in Australia, that's a cultural and political symptom and is not directly related to videogames. Australia also has stronger, or at least more heavily enforced censorship laws when it comes to movies and other visual media. To point out Syndicate and not mention recent movies like Human Centipede or A Serbian Film being banned in Australia is a bit disingenuous and feels like cherry picking, when said censorship laws aren't directed solely at videogames.

Being taken seriously is not a requirement to have the games we want. All that we need is strong anti-censorship laws and developers and publishers willing to challenge people's perceptions. You cannot legislate "seriousness".

I don't want to dispute that public perception or law maker's attitudes aren't important, but I just believe that the medium will live or die on it's own merits and doesn't need a crusade to prove it's worth or convince some politicians to accept it. Censorship, just like prohibition, never works. People will defy it, find a way around it and continue to find ways to produce and consume whatever media they please.

Why anyone gives a crap about Roger Ebert's opinions on anything except film (which many disagree with anyway) is beyond me. The only relevant response to his "games aren't art" comment would be "Stick to your own medium and don't presume to speak for the entire length and breadth of artistic creation you fat-headed old man".

Agreed.

Loved that closer. Out of character but fucking awesome "Thank God, for the Jimquisition"

i think by "seriously", gamers mean tolerated, because with court cases like brown vs EMA they become afraid for their hobby. and know that any source of criticism against video games could be used to put more restrictions on the sale and creation of video games. that is what people are afraid of... that and of being called a nerd every time they leave the basement.

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