Save the Whips and Chains Until the Second Date

Save the Whips and Chains Until the Second Date

Creepers tend to get creepy when creeping.

Read Full Article

Lara Crigger:
Save the Whips and Chains Until the Second Date

Creepers tend to get creepy when creeping.

Read Full Article

And this week's theme -- perspective!

Distress is forgetting that the whole point of "dating" is not just to learn about the other person, but to teach them about you. If you were teaching a kid how to read, you wouldn't start with Conrad's Heart of Darkness. When you talk about the BDSM stuff too soon, here's what you are (unintentionally) teaching about yourself to an outsider:

1. This fetish is a priority, and a big part of your identity. Whether true or not, this fact can be a big turn-off in itself. When sex is that central to a person's "self," it sometimes indicates someone who wants to rush sex, and who may leave after the novelty wears off. Make sure you're showing other facets of yourself first.

2. You want to incorporate her into your life, rather than incorporate yourself into hers. Everyone has a list of non-negotiables they bring into the relationship, of course -- but sometimes we forget that, when that non-negotiable requires participation from the other party, well... it might have to be negotiable. And the first rule of negotiation? Don't open with everything you've got.

3. Here's a biggie, and one that is pretty unfair: You're teaching her that you fit every stereotype she has ever heard about folks in that scene. How? Because she doesn't know any better yet. She has to learn who you are, aside from your bedroom preferences. She has to learn that her preconceived notions about that whole scene are skewed by media. Both of those take time. But when you go into that stuff too soon, she truly can't help bringing all of that prior "knowledge" to the table, because she hasn't learn anything to replace it yet.

_________

Out of Luck understands that the other person has a perspective on the matter... and is frustrated that it isn't being shared. You're thinking about things in a very mature way -- it's a learning experience, failures included -- but you're thwarted by reality. Generally speaking, people hate "exit surveys."

When someone asks you why you're quitting/leaving/breaking up/etc., whether it's a relationship or a cell phone plan, we can't help but think it's so they can figure out a way to "get us back." Even if it's just to improve the quality of their service, do we really care? We're leaving, whether they get better or not, and we don't like being made to feel wrong.

So, the sad fact is that you won't get an answer in a situation like this. All reasons boil down to one core fact: They don't want to be with you anymore. Any improvements you intend to make need to be hashed out for yourself. Heck, you may find that it's your fixation with "doing it right" that is intimidating or off-putting...

But you're already in a good position personally -- you're more honest with yourself than most, and you consider the perspective of others. Answers will come, just not from the people you date.

_________

Nintendog:

What you've got is a guy who's played too many games. To him, you have no perspective of your own, you're just a game. If he enters the right sequence of moves, and executes those combos enough times, victory is assured. He does not see you as a person, he sees you as a game that can be won -- meaning you have no will of your own. If you're not with him yet, it just means he hasn't hit the right buttons or used the right strategy.

Cut him out of your life. For his good as much as yours, it needs to be a clean break. Make him aware that the problem is he doesn't respect your feelings or independence, so if he tries to "fight" you on this at all, he's only proving your point further. And then that's all. No further contact, no matter what.

You'll both be better for it.

Dastardly:

...

I think I enjoy reading Dastardly's comments just as much as Lara's. Almost like a post commentary. You guys give sound and unbiased advice in my opinion as well. Happy Holidays.

I might've posted this before and forgotten about it, but I want to say how much I enjoy reading these columns. I was pissed when I first saw that the Escapist was running something like this because they usually end up being egotistical, narrow-minded and disgustingly offensive to one gender or the other (usually to both), but this is just...good advice and interesting to read. Keep it up.

(also, I can't help thinking of the forum posts the creep from the third message must make when he's not creeping. "Bawww, why do girls always date jerks? I'M SO SENSITIVE AND INTELLIGENT, WHY WON'T YOU FUCK ME?" He probably posts here.)

Disagree. She's either into S&M or she isn't. If she is, it is easy to find out during the first romantic encounter, and if she isn't, then no amount of dates are going to change that. If such is an important part of your love life, you'll either have to find the right person, or be comfortable with cheating.

First letter thinks they have it tough, try being a male *sub*.
I've never been quite sure how to bring it up either, to be honest. A bit harder in my corner, since I can't really slowly introduce someone's behavior towards me :P
Good article as always!

Actually, I can give some advice to you, Maxwell.

You want to do some research on the internet on 'munches' in your area. A munch is a place where kinky people gather, have some drinks, talk, enjoy some food... but don't engage in any sort of play. It's kinda a meet and greet without the pressure of whips and chains.

For someone looking for others in the lifestyle, it's a great place to meet and network. Just be yourself. Don't put on your subbie pants and beg to be abused (it's a munch, that's defeating the purpose of a munch), but let people know who you are, and start engaging with the community.

Sometimes, I don't know how you come up with the advice for people, Lara. I'd draw up a big blank on the spot.

Dastardly:
Nintendog:

What you've got is a guy who's played too many games. To him, you have no perspective of your own, you're just a game. If he enters the right sequence of moves, and executes those combos enough times, victory is assured. He does not see you as a person, he sees you as a game that can be won -- meaning you have no will of your own. If you're not with him yet, it just means he hasn't hit the right buttons or used the right strategy.

Cut him out of your life. For his good as much as yours, it needs to be a clean break. Make him aware that the problem is he doesn't respect your feelings or independence, so if he tries to "fight" you on this at all, he's only proving your point further. And then that's all. No further contact, no matter what.

You'll both be better for it.

That's actually a really good way of putting it.

MaxwellEdison:
First letter thinks they have it tough, try being a male *sub*.
I've never been quite sure how to bring it up either, to be honest. A bit harder in my corner, since I can't really slowly introduce someone's behavior towards me :P
Good article as always!

Also a male sub over here, I got next to no clue how to go about finding the right partner.

DracoSuave:
Actually, I can give some advice to you, Maxwell.

You want to do some research on the internet on 'munches' in your area. A munch is a place where kinky people gather, have some drinks, talk, enjoy some food... but don't engage in any sort of play. It's kinda a meet and greet without the pressure of whips and chains.

For someone looking for others in the lifestyle, it's a great place to meet and network. Just be yourself. Don't put on your subbie pants and beg to be abused (it's a munch, that's defeating the purpose of a munch), but let people know who you are, and start engaging with the community.

That sounds like a good idea, I've just been terrified of typing anything into google related to the fetish because....well its the internet.

Seventh Actuality:
(also, I can't help thinking of the forum posts the creep from the third message must make when he's not creeping. "Bawww, why do girls always date jerks? I'M SO SENSITIVE AND INTELLIGENT, WHY WON'T YOU FUCK ME?" He probably posts here.)

That's exactly what I was thinking as I read it. I hope some of them read this column and see themselves in it.

AbstractStream:
Sometimes, I don't know how you come up with the advice for people, Lara. I'd draw up a big blank on the spot.

Dastardly:
Nintendog:

What you've got is a guy who's played too many games. To him, you have no perspective of your own, you're just a game. If he enters the right sequence of moves, and executes those combos enough times, victory is assured. He does not see you as a person, he sees you as a game that can be won -- meaning you have no will of your own. If you're not with him yet, it just means he hasn't hit the right buttons or used the right strategy.

Cut him out of your life. For his good as much as yours, it needs to be a clean break. Make him aware that the problem is he doesn't respect your feelings or independence, so if he tries to "fight" you on this at all, he's only proving your point further. And then that's all. No further contact, no matter what.

You'll both be better for it.

That's actually a really good way of putting it.

In a different article Lara said almost the exact same thing, I think it was the one about nice guys, still good advice.

DracoSuave:
Actually, I can give some advice to you, Maxwell.

You want to do some research on the internet on 'munches' in your area. A munch is a place where kinky people gather, have some drinks, talk, enjoy some food... but don't engage in any sort of play. It's kinda a meet and greet without the pressure of whips and chains.

For someone looking for others in the lifestyle, it's a great place to meet and network. Just be yourself. Don't put on your subbie pants and beg to be abused (it's a munch, that's defeating the purpose of a munch), but let people know who you are, and start engaging with the community.

Huh. Interesting thought. Luckily, I've got a partner who I'm very happy with atm, but that's great for all the others out there!
I don't think I could do that though. Honestly, it seems a bit...awkward, to me to have a meet up based on that sort of thing. /shrug.

Good article this week, imo. Interesting read, especially that part on 'avoiding exit surveys'

The last letter clearly shows that its sender has a problem in the guy, but in her evidence she refers to him holding doors for her. Obviously all the other stuff is fairly dodgy, but opening doors, or more usually holding doors open for people is a common courtesy that I try to extend to people at all relevent times, regardless of whether I know them or even want to know them. Its not something that I would do specifically to try and impress a girl.

Hmm, have I ever posted on this blog before? Don't think so.

MaxwellEdison:
First letter thinks they have it tough, try being a male *sub*.

I think there are more doms out there, so being a sub should be easier. I don't think there are any subs without some dom tendencies, but there are plenty of doms that don't like being subs.

capacollo:

Dastardly:

...

I think I enjoy reading Dastardly's comments just as much as Lara's. Almost like a post commentary. You guys give sound and unbiased advice in my opinion as well. Happy Holidays.

Me too. I reckon Dastardly could do just as good a job of this column as Lara does, and that's a compliment for both of them.

Oh, and yes, Happy Holidays.

If she's not answering your messages, take the hint. She doesn't want to talk to you. Ever.

I too don't understand why some people do that. Especially after a sustained relationship (see dating or friends).

Good points, here, by both Lara and Dastardly. Dating isn't a QTE you can just keep trying over and over again. If one of you is not into it, there's very little that can be done to get that perspective to change. You could force the matter, which just brings it to a head, and that barely works. You could wait until she's self conscious about her age, and hope she settles for it, thinking it a last compromise for some long term goals.

Or, you know, you could realize that doing such things massively destroys any respect she has for you, thereby reducing whatever image of you she had. Best to just take things as they are, and find someone else to date.

In regards to #2, fuck that. He deserves better than just being shut out like that.
Personally, I think it's pretty damn rude and cowardly to just cut yourself off from someone without saying anything or giving a reason. Unless the person's dangerous or a creeper, or abrupt disconnection is the only way to end it drama free, fucking say something. The person getting thrown by the wayside is going to assume they did something wrong, and if they can't tell what, leaving them hanging is only gonna lead to more pain for them. That'd be like coming to work one day only to find no one's talking to you and your desk is cleared out. It's a strong hint that you've been shit-canned without your knowledge, but being refused a reason as to why prevents that person from learning from any mistakes they might have made. It's rude, cowardly, and demoralizing.

But then again, I myself have never actually been on a date, so my perspective's a little limited.

In regards to #3: Generally good advice, but I think theres one caveat.

Make sure youve told them that you dont like their behaviour, first.

There are quite a few people out there who "dont want to hurt peoples feelings", but use that excuse as a cover to not even bring up the issue at all with the person. If somebody is doing something you dont like then you tell them, clearly and plainly, "I dont like that behaviour. You need to stop."

If it continues, then you cut them out of your life.

Unfortunately it is more common than youd think for people to stress over an issue and wonder why it wont stop, without actually having taken any steps to bring it to anybody's attention. You have to summon up the courage to talk about the issue, regardless of shyness or wanting to not hurt peoples feelings.

Satosuke:
That'd be like coming to work one day only to find no one's talking to you and your desk is cleared out. It's a strong hint that you've been shit-canned without your knowledge, but being refused a reason as to why prevents that person from learning from any mistakes they might have made. It's rude, cowardly, and demoralizing.

Or you're not part of their reality anymore and have to live in london below...

Seriously though: I never experienced that kinda stuff. I bet its not nice at all, but keeping your calm and not giving in to the selfdoubt probably does more for you, than knowing what you did wrong, if there even is anything you did wrong.

For the person looking for their damsel in distress:

First, I want you to watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFAozYmmjWs

Now answer honestly - is this you? I assume its not, but if it is, we've found your problem. If its not, let it stand as a reminder that you're doing better than a lot people ;)

That said - sexuality is an important part of who we are. If this is an important part of you, then I recommend you explore it more. Have you explored your local scene? Are you involved in the scene online? Fetlife is a really good social networking site for SM - ie it has active groups and good discussion rather than just being a meat market. Sign up (its free, and no, I'm not employed by them), see if you can find people in your area/with your interests. There are also plenty of groups there for people new to SM where more experienced folks answer questions. If there is a local scene where you are, try going to some munches. Meeting other kinky folks will help you grow and understand yourself better, maybe introduce you to stuff you didn't even know you liked - and who knows, you might meet someone with compatible levels of kink there. If nothing else, it is good for your self-esteem to hang out with people that don't have that knee-jerk "omg woman hater" reaction.

Kink brings an extra level of complexity to the already complex task of relationships - but remember that relationships are work and NOTHING in them is going to be perfect at first. Compatibility, sexual or otherwise, requires communication and compromise. You and your partner will each some with kinks and quirks that are new to the other one, maybe they'll be deal breakers, maybe they won't. If something's a dealbreaker, it will always be one - but there are plenty of things that a person might not be into simply because they haven't been exposed to them. I thought I hated martinis, but I was proven wrong by a night spent hanging out with my fabulous husband, enjoying his company and patiently tasting all the samples he made for me. I wouldn't have done that if I didn't enjoy his company so much. Exploring new things is fun if you enjoy spending time with the other person - and as Lara pointed out, that goes both ways.

You will have to walk a fine line with any seemingly "vanilla" girl, and the right time to have the conversation will depend on your situation. But light bondage is becoming much more accepted by society, so you've got a certain amount of leeway. There are plenty of love scenes in reasonably popular movies that contain a bit of blindfolding or tying up - try watching one with her and judging her reaction. If its "omg gross" well then, guess you've got your answer - but if its neutral or even positive, then there's an opening. Bondage iconography shows up all around us, keep your eyes open. Find ways to introduce the topic slowly in a low-pressure way, and gauge how to progress from there.

Good luck :)

Caffiene:
In regards to #3: Generally good advice, but I think theres one caveat.

Make sure youve told them that you dont like their behaviour, first.

There are quite a few people out there who "dont want to hurt peoples feelings", but use that excuse as a cover to not even bring up the issue at all with the person. If somebody is doing something you dont like then you tell them, clearly and plainly, "I dont like that behaviour. You need to stop."

If it continues, then you cut them out of your life.

Unfortunately it is more common than youd think for people to stress over an issue and wonder why it wont stop, without actually having taken any steps to bring it to anybody's attention. You have to summon up the courage to talk about the issue, regardless of shyness or wanting to not hurt peoples feelings.

This, so much this. "Nice guys" are as much the victims of the situation as they are a part of the problem. It's not their fault that they're bad at reading subtle signals -- and frankly, I think pretty much all men are to a certain extent. When a girl turns a date down with something like "I'm not looking for a boyfriend right now," the guy hears the "right now" part, and thinks "oh, so if I wait long enough, I have a chance." He's wrong, but that doesn't mean she's not leading him on, intentionally or not. When it comes to dating, a little bit of openness goes a long way, and that applies doubly when you're trying to let someone know you aren't interested.

capacollo:

Dastardly:

...

I think I enjoy reading Dastardly's comments just as much as Lara's. Almost like a post commentary. You guys give sound and unbiased advice in my opinion as well. Happy Holidays.

I think they should actually team up to co-write this article.

I suppose I've been lucky, most of the girls that end up approaching me/I meet ARE into some level of BDSM.

The whips and chains tend to be part of the courting process, in my case.

And they're always proposed by the other person. I just happen to be extraordinarily flexible and open-minded.

Yes, I know this is barely related to the overall message.

Fearzone:
Disagree. She's either into S&M or she isn't. If she is, it is easy to find out during the first romantic encounter, and if she isn't, then no amount of dates are going to change that. If such is an important part of your love life, you'll either have to find the right person, or be comfortable with cheating.

Or she's never tried it and doesn't know what it's about. Or she is interested, but a bit scared or shamed out of it. Or she is really into it, but thinks it's a bad idea to let a total stranger handcuff you to a bed and gag you, which is why a smart person doesn't push for that sort of thing until after they know each other.

This isn't a dichotomy, it's a sliding scale. There are plenty of reasons a person may think it's a really bad idea on the first date. Even somebody who is really into that sort of thing isn't going to want to do it with somebody they don't trust or care about.

Whoops, sorry about the double post. I blame the new forum agreement popping up when I posted this.

Fearzone:

MaxwellEdison:
First letter thinks they have it tough, try being a male *sub*.

I think there are more doms out there, so being a sub should be easier. I don't think there are any subs without some dom tendencies, but there are plenty of doms that don't like being subs.

Well, that doesn't explain the difficulty of finding dominant women in my life :P

Numbers 2 and 3 have some thing in common I would like to address. If your not interested in someone who is interested in you fucking tell them. That passive aggressive ignoring thing is much more cruel than a polite but firm refusal. It's better for them and it's better for you. You can't just assume they'll "take the point".

Sorry for going off the handle like that, but that kind of thing just pisses me off.

MaxwellEdison:

DracoSuave:
Actually, I can give some advice to you, Maxwell.

You want to do some research on the internet on 'munches' in your area. A munch is a place where kinky people gather, have some drinks, talk, enjoy some food... but don't engage in any sort of play. It's kinda a meet and greet without the pressure of whips and chains.

For someone looking for others in the lifestyle, it's a great place to meet and network. Just be yourself. Don't put on your subbie pants and beg to be abused (it's a munch, that's defeating the purpose of a munch), but let people know who you are, and start engaging with the community.

Huh. Interesting thought. Luckily, I've got a partner who I'm very happy with atm, but that's great for all the others out there!
I don't think I could do that though. Honestly, it seems a bit...awkward, to me to have a meet up based on that sort of thing. /shrug.

That's the beauty part; it's not about meeting people, not a meat market, it's not about scoring or any of that.

It's just about people sharing a common interest having dinner or something. It's not so much about meeting someone to play with... it's about finding people who can give you practical advice.

 

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here