Legacy of Kain

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A lot of dead franchises are being resurrected these days. Maybe we'll finally see another LoK game.

<3 !!! Soul Reaver: Legacy of Kain, one of my fav games ever ^_^ there's a game that needs the HD treatment

Kind of makes me laugh when people want another game in the series. You get your wish and everybody starts bitching that it doesn't live up to the rest of them. Really have a hard time believing people anymore when they say they want another one. You want another game so you can judge it, or do you really want to play it some more. Say it is hard to tell.

You forgot one of the most important reasons: There's no Tony Jay. You can't have Legacy of Kain without Tony Jay.

Legacy of Kain was such a great series :( i miss it

HOLY SHIT LEGACY OF KAIN. I have no idea why this would be relevant right now, but I fuckin love you for making the comic.

Although I really see Moebius giving Kain that present. Raziel would probably give him a quantum physics book or something. To show him that fatalism is bullshit. Get it?

I really wish they'd make a sequel too, but it's a dead series. I don't wanna see it rebooted, and I don't wanna see it continued without Amy Hening and her team. What was, however, I'll never forget. It was everything I wanted from games.

Inuprince:
Same here, if they would finally announce a new LoK game I would scream with so much joy.
Although Raziel is my favourite, so not that much if it would be an only Kain game, but still very happy.

They wouldn't even have to continue Defiance, there would be two great things they could do:

Remake the original Soul Reaver BUT with the original story and original content that was dumped in order for more sequels ( for those who don't know : Raziel would have killed all of his brothers, a Priestess, and Kain too, you could have acquired all of the elemental Reaver upgrades that were in the sequels, more Glyph powers and areas to visit, and in the end Raziel would unleash the power of the silent cathedral and eliminate every vampire in Nosgoth)
This would be so awesome with todays graphics, and technology, but with the same great music, atmosphere, voice acting etc.)

OR the other option : make a game that takes place after Blood Omen but before Soul Reaver, we know Raziel served Kain for a 1000 years, and they conquered Nosgoth, so it could begin by Raziel being raised and fighting along Kain in a great war against the humans. With a great open world setting like Assassins Creed that could also be something very cool.

If I ever win the lottery, I will totally invest some money in one of the above projects! It would be a dream come true!

Exactly like i said in a previous post about the that Lara Croft game that shamelessly copypasted the voices of the actors of Kain and Raziel without any context in the story of the DLC

Anyway, i am alone on this when i think that the series just banished from the memories of every single person on Earth?? because i fell that this game made no impact at all or its the fangirls killed the series by inundating the Crystal Dinamic company with shipping of Kain - Raziel?? i mean, didnt the dual world (Physical and Spectral Realms) used in Soul Reaver was a good example of decent 3D plataforming back in its day?? I know that Legend of Zelda of the SNES predates the concept of dual world (i think) but for a 3D world that is a fucking accomplishment, just ask Bubsy 3D. And how about the voice acting?? since 1996 with Blood Omen 1 they were using decent actors and still nothing....not even on this site is mentioned. Did i become a fanboy and there is actually nothing worth on the series??

.......

I guess i have to do the voice myself. If only i knew audio editing and what micro should i use to record my voice.

By the way, here is an idea i posted before:

Since Silicon Knights made Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain and Eternal Darkness there is nothing good left on it, isn't it? i wish that at least Eidos and Crystal Dinamics didn't kicked to the trash all your ideas for the sequel to the first Legacy of Kain game and instead we got what Crystal Dinamics shat out as LoK: Soul Reaver 1 witch was incomplete and most of its voice acting scenes seemed to anemic compared to the other games (however there is no shortage of block puzzles in SR1.....dear god there isnt a single frame that isnt block puzzles) And its was eventually revealed that the game content was cut short for time constrains they are still on the CD if you can hack your way into it.
In short, it exist only to have the crowing gem that is LoK: Soul Reaver 2 where the story get so compelling and makes so many references to the other games (timelines) to spin your head around. But it would have been nice to see what Silicon Knights planed for the original game and also have a remastering for Soul Reaver 1 made by Crystal Dinamics but this time with ALL the content accessible this time. Because free will and fighting destiny its is core theme of these games, they should allow the choice of making the events flow to make Soul Reaver 2 happen or they could end just like Soul Reaver 1 was intended, all the fans will love it and you will have more money on your pockets for making a remastering of this game (they should use the Playstation 2 graphics because the body language in cutscenes and actions felt more organic than in LoK: Defiance )

If i have to take a guess, they will scrap the sequel to Defiance that Square Enix is making right now (who also published Deus Ex: Human Revolution, see it here http://www.gamerevolution.com/news/survey-says-new-legacy-of-kain-game-coming-5797) but instead they will try something more safe rather than solve some questions that the series left. They will instead just do what you said, that game after Blood Omen 1 and before Soul Reaver 1. At best, they will remake Soul Reaver 1 with actual choice like i said here.

Now lets take this moment to see what questions needs to be answered by the hypothetical game that will be made: (fell free to post your own)

1)How did the Hylden planned ahead so munch??? the writer said that they have access to a way to see the timeline but that doesn't answer why the Hylden Lord didn't plan for Kain resurrection in Blood Omen 2

2)how is Kain supposed to make a paradox now if Raziel is in the reaver, the only way to make one is maybe if Young Kain has already one and Older Kain goes to meet him. However, up until now we know that only Raziel had free will because he is a walking paradox himself (holding in your arm your own soul as a weapon may help) so that means for free will you need at least 2 of the object and for a bigger paradox you need 3 (2 swords + 1 Raziel) That is unless, Kain somehow liberates ALL the souls of Raziel that have been eternally trapped in the sword per time loop, one by one, lets see if the writers pull that out.

3)Why does Kain thinks that the Choronoplast Chamber used to find out about every predestined event up until now WASN'T tampered by Moebius (or someone else) long before Kain could even consider taking a look there??? Think back then in Soul Reaver 1 before the final fight with Kain there are 6 cutscenes relation some time-visions (or something) 3 were past visions of actions that Raziel (and the player) already did and the other 3 are from "the future" where 1) he confronts Kain in Nubraptor Retreat 2) Strikes Ariel with the soul reaver and becomes the white reaver 3) Raziel is standing at the top of the Silenced Cathedral after he activated the frecuency that killed all the vampires in the world. (those last visions are actually what could have been in the game but that is not the point) The point here is that we know that those 3 last visions WONT happen at all but somehow they are ignored and not questioned by Kain or Raziel, the fact that these visions could be false doesnt tip them off to ACTUALLY believe the machine was tampered

4)What stops Raziel (who has free will) to actually meet and talk to younger Kain and find a solution to the Pillar's Dilemma??? You may said that Older Kain would tell him that that doesnt happen because otherwise he will either: A) see it in the Choronoplast Chamber, B) he will have memories about it, but i dont actually believe that it is the case

5)Why Vorador wasn't resurrected AGAIN in Blood Omen 2 aftermath????

EverythingIncredible:
You forgot one of the most important reasons: There's no Tony Jay. You can't have Legacy of Kain without Tony Jay.

I can fix that, just tell me what kind of software and microphone should you recommend??

RJ 17:

vivster:
i want my soul reaver 3... or at least a nice remake of the first...

Unfortunately a Soul Reaver 3 is out of the question as Raziel no longer exists, because.....

bimbley:
Argh! I need a new LoK game so badly that simply the mention of it here is likely to leave me constipated for a week. And it's CHRISTMAS god damn you. You've constipated me at christmas! Have you no ethics?

Mind you, weren't Raziel and Kain last seen having been shlurped into one being in order to go about their teamed up violence more efficiently in future? In which case this comic must be situating itself in some previous point in the series' lore. Unless of course you've presented a penetrating look into the internal dynamics of a doubled-up conciousness, in which case bravo, sir, bravo. This comic is a psychoanalytical masterpiece!

-Bim

Actually Raziel was himself absorbed into the Soul Reaver, thus making it the all-powerful vampiric sword that it was originally fashioned to be. Kane thought this was horrible, that Raziel needed to be alive in order to break free from the unrelenting flow of time, but Raziel knew the truth: he was ALWAYS destined to be Kane's instrument of destruction. First as a living vampire, and now as the soul powering his sword. This is what allows Kane to see and slay the ancient god who was manipulating the events throughout the entire storyline.

That said, there is still room for a final game in the series, and I don't see what would be so complicated about it. Kane and Raziel broke the chain by first killing the Time Guardian when he wasn't supposed to die, and secondly by having Raziel be absorbed into the Soul Reaver. This is why the last game was called Defiance, because Kane and Raziel both defy their apparent fates in order to break free of the web the ancient god had woven. From that point on, all that is left is to destroy the invasion of the Hilden (think that's what they're called), and there you have your final ending to the entire series.

:P Didn't use spoilers because anyone who reads this most likely is as big a LoK fan as everyone else who posted here and this should all be common knowledge. I would LOVE to see a new LoK game. Blood Omen 2 and Soul Reaver 2 were my favorites before they combined Raziel and Kane into LoK Defiance. The problem with making a new LoK game to continue on from Defiance is that, as mentioned above, Kane's Soul Reaver is now so powerful that it can chop an ancient god to bits...kinda removes any possible challenge that comes next once you've earned the title God Slayer.

PS: To this day, "VAE VICTIS!" is my all-time favorite battle cry.

I remind you that the Elder God didn't die in Defiance in the hands of the purified Soul Reaver. For all we know, the Elder God true form may be underground even deeper than we were allowed to see, and its core may not be as easily destroyed. This could be a good oportunity to see if the world of Nosgoth is actually an extention of Elder Gog to the point that when we go deeper we can see lost civilitations cities with souls that are still being eternally feed to the Elder God.

Lets not forget that we still dont know how in the fuck the Hylden managed to see the timeline of the first game and manipulate the events to start Blood Omen 1. And why if they can see the timeline, why they were so surpriced that Kain survived the events that lead to Blood Omen 2 and the eventual fall of the Hylden Lord (i mean, why they didnt further in the future to prevent that from happening?)

And we also dont know how is Kain supposed to make a paradox now if Raziel is in the reaver, the only way to make one is maybe if Young Kain has already one and Older Kain goes to meet him. However, up until now we know that only Raziel had free will because he is a walking paradox himself (holding in your arm your own soul as a weapon may help) so that means for free will you need at least 2 of the object and for a bigger paradox you need 3 (2 swords + 1 Raziel) That is unless, Kain somehow liberates ALL the souls of Raziel that have been eternally trapped in the sword per time loop, one by one, lets see if the writers pull that out.

DioWallachia:

RJ 17:

vivster:
i want my soul reaver 3... or at least a nice remake of the first...

Unfortunately a Soul Reaver 3 is out of the question as Raziel no longer exists, because.....

bimbley:
Argh! I need a new LoK game so badly that simply the mention of it here is likely to leave me constipated for a week. And it's CHRISTMAS god damn you. You've constipated me at christmas! Have you no ethics?

Mind you, weren't Raziel and Kain last seen having been shlurped into one being in order to go about their teamed up violence more efficiently in future? In which case this comic must be situating itself in some previous point in the series' lore. Unless of course you've presented a penetrating look into the internal dynamics of a doubled-up conciousness, in which case bravo, sir, bravo. This comic is a psychoanalytical masterpiece!

-Bim

Actually Raziel was himself absorbed into the Soul Reaver, thus making it the all-powerful vampiric sword that it was originally fashioned to be. Kane thought this was horrible, that Raziel needed to be alive in order to break free from the unrelenting flow of time, but Raziel knew the truth: he was ALWAYS destined to be Kane's instrument of destruction. First as a living vampire, and now as the soul powering his sword. This is what allows Kane to see and slay the ancient god who was manipulating the events throughout the entire storyline.

That said, there is still room for a final game in the series, and I don't see what would be so complicated about it. Kane and Raziel broke the chain by first killing the Time Guardian when he wasn't supposed to die, and secondly by having Raziel be absorbed into the Soul Reaver. This is why the last game was called Defiance, because Kane and Raziel both defy their apparent fates in order to break free of the web the ancient god had woven. From that point on, all that is left is to destroy the invasion of the Hilden (think that's what they're called), and there you have your final ending to the entire series.

:P Didn't use spoilers because anyone who reads this most likely is as big a LoK fan as everyone else who posted here and this should all be common knowledge. I would LOVE to see a new LoK game. Blood Omen 2 and Soul Reaver 2 were my favorites before they combined Raziel and Kane into LoK Defiance. The problem with making a new LoK game to continue on from Defiance is that, as mentioned above, Kane's Soul Reaver is now so powerful that it can chop an ancient god to bits...kinda removes any possible challenge that comes next once you've earned the title God Slayer.

PS: To this day, "VAE VICTIS!" is my all-time favorite battle cry.

I remind you that the Elder God didn't die in Defiance in the hands of the purified Soul Reaver. For all we know, the Elder God true form may be underground even deeper than we were allowed to see, and its core may not be as easily destroyed. This could be a good oportunity to see if the world of Nosgoth is actually an extention of Elder Gog to the point that when we go deeper we can see lost civilitations cities with souls that are still being eternally feed to the Elder God.

Lets not forget that we still dont know how in the fuck the Hylden managed to see the timeline of the first game and manipulate the events to start Blood Omen 1. And why if they can see the timeline, why they were so surpriced that Kain survived the events that lead to Blood Omen 2 and the eventual fall of the Hylden Lord (i mean, why they didnt further in the future to prevent that from happening?)

And we also dont know how is Kain supposed to make a paradox now if Raziel is in the reaver, the only way to make one is maybe if Young Kain has already one and Older Kain goes to meet him. However, up until now we know that only Raziel had free will because he is a walking paradox himself (holding in your arm your own soul as a weapon may help) so that means for free will you need at least 2 of the object and for a bigger paradox you need 3 (2 swords + 1 Raziel) That is unless, Kain somehow liberates ALL the souls of Raziel that have been eternally trapped in the sword per time loop, one by one, lets see if the writers pull that out.

As for the Elder God, you're right, chances are he's not completely dead as I do doubt just taking out a room full of him would be taking out the core.

As for the Hylden - and it has been a VERY long time since I played the LoK games - it was my understanding that they were essentially in league with the Elder God because to my recollection the Elder God hated vampires, didn't he? I thought he wanted to replace them with the Hylden and the only way he could do that was to wipe out the vampires which is why he made Raziel into a soul-sucking assassin. And as for why the Hylden couldn't see all the events in the timeline, it's likely that Raziel's very existence made it impossible to truly see the future with any accuracy.

From my understanding, Raziel's "fate" was to kill Kain since Kain refused to sacrifice himself so that new guardians could emerge (again, haven't played in years so I could be way off on that, just remember that Kain was the guardian of balance and he was supposed to sacrifice himself). Now this might be a bit of a stretch, but I think it's a valid theory: perhaps by Raziel sacrificing himself to Kain, that itself creates a paradox since it is now completely impossible for Raziel to ever kill Kain and thus fulfill his "destiny" since he no longer exists. This would mean that Kain's fate to be killed by Raziel was unwriten, thus granting him the true free will that had been attained by Raziel.

Unfortunately, though, unless some new developer takes up the series, it's doubtful that we'll ever find out. Really hope a new LoK game will come out, but the chances are very unlikely.

Since we may never get another LoK game, I'd settled for a grand remake of the original game, only enhanced with extra content or a new alternate ending.

Seriously, Legacy of Kain was like the Playstation and Saturn's dark, gothic Zelda and Raziel was our dark, vampiritic, Lara Croft-ish wraith of violent justice.

It NEEDS to come back.

"Raziel... you are worthy...." "Become my Soul Reaver... my angel of death." "Raziel, pawn and messiah... welcome to your destiny."

Too bad Tony Jay died so they have a huge hole to fill in the main cast. no one will be able to live up to his awesome voice skills.
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R.I.P 1970 - 2006

DioWallachia:

EverythingIncredible:
You forgot one of the most important reasons: There's no Tony Jay. You can't have Legacy of Kain without Tony Jay.

I can fix that, just tell me what kind of software and microphone should you recommend??

There is no replacing talent like Tony Jay. Heck, they've tried it before with people in the past. Someone with amazing voice work would pass-on, the studio would try to recast his role, and no matter how many people or tricks they tried, they could just never get the voice to be quite right. Tony Jay is easily that kind of person. There is no voice filter in the world that could properly emulate his voice.

WhiteTigerShiro:

DioWallachia:

EverythingIncredible:
You forgot one of the most important reasons: There's no Tony Jay. You can't have Legacy of Kain without Tony Jay.

I can fix that, just tell me what kind of software and microphone should you recommend??

There is no replacing talent like Tony Jay. Heck, they've tried it before with people in the past. Someone with amazing voice work would pass-on, the studio would try to recast his role, and no matter how many people or tricks they tried, they could just never get the voice to be quite right. Tony Jay is easily that kind of person. There is no voice filter in the world that could properly emulate his voice.

Or how about taking the third option and get Walt Disney out of the freezer to do the voice?? in the movies he was in, i could clearly tell he has a nice baritone voice that may actually pass for the real thing :D

About the software thing, i dont mean to modify my voice but instead i need to know what to use to hear my voice as clearly as possible without external noise, because there is a difference of hearing what YOU think its your voice but then when you hear it in a recording it feels different

RJ 17:
[quote="DioWallachia" post="6.335582.13561526"]I Just make this quote shorter because otherwise people will get scared of the wall of text

Listen to this to confront the wall of text apocalipse with more dignity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2RMWWBXYbs
And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASxtIadTzE

Before going into discussing a few of many questions around the game, i will tell you and everyone else here what i fell about the series now...........it has become too complex and too iconic for his own good. Just like the Indiana Jones series, if you stray too munch from the formula, people may not recognize it anymore (Kingdom of The Crystal Skull, anyone?). Lets take for example that idea of mine of going deeper into Nosgoth earth to find the core or the true form the Elder God to finish him off for good, while on his way down, Kain could see ruins of lost civilizations even older than the Vampires and Hylden and billions of soul who are still being slowly eaten by the Elder God, hinting that this may be the only chance in a long time to actually prevent history from repeating itself and end up strengthening Kain's resolve. But if the writers do this, then they will leave behind some iconic stuff like the Pillars, the Avernous Cathedral and the Sarafan Stronghold because the context of the story doesn't permit it.
How about (the writers would think) having Raziel speak to Kain trough the Soul Reaver?? since Kain is now purified of Nubraptor Curse after a long time, he can hear Raziel voice so we can have the 2 characters together and that will win many fans who believe that the interaction of those 2 was one of the strongest aspect. That COULD work but will bring many questions like: Why Kain can only hear the Raziel that has been recently absorved by the Reaver?? how about the millons of Raziels that have been stuck on the Soul Reaver in previous time loops?? why cant they talk to Kain?? This could be answered by saying that the other Raziels have spent too munch time trapped there that they have become deranged to the point that reasoning with them is useless (this could also explain why the Soul Reaver is so strong and ferocious in taking control during the events of Soul Reaver 2)
I was also imagining if the writers would try to pull a one moment of awesome by actually letting you play as Raziel in the "sequel" just in the finale only. Allow me to explain. We have the confrontation with Kain and the Elder God in the core of this eldritch abomination and after the fight, you manage to stab the beast with the Soul Reaver in the weakest spot, then Kain tells Raziel that one last thing is needed from him to finish this once and for all. So we cut back to the INSIDE of the Soul Reaver and we play as Raziel just for this final level, where we evade the other Raziels that have become deranged and we make our way to the inside of the Elder God where we commit what is probably the most AWESOME IRONIC FATE that we can do to the beast.............Raziel opens his scarf and starts to eat all the souls in existance that have been inside the Elder God, in other words, he is eating the Elder God from the inside out. Better yet, how about actually luring the other Raziels into the Elder God so they ALL devour him at the same time for massive damage. This could be awesome if it wasn't for some questions that could ruin it, Like:
A) If the Elder God dies, how will it change history for the better?? for all we know there could be another force manipulating everything, probably the same force that made Kain and Raziel indestructible (Raziel even lampshade this fact to the Elder God)
B) How could they make a paradox if the 3 elements that made possible to change history arent there?? That is, the Soul Reaver + The Spectral Reaver + Raziel. Remember, Raziel has free will because he is a walking mini paradox who has his own soul as a weapon in his arm, and you need 3 of them for the time-space displacement and vertigo to take place and introduce a bigger paradox to change history so how could you make a paradox in this case??

Now, back to answer what RJ 17 wrote:

Well....The Elder God only sides with the Elder God, because he doesnt give a fuck who is killing who as long they get killed so their souls could be returned to the Wheel of Fate (AKA dinner) If you played Defiance you may have seen the Avernous Cathedral secret dungeons where the course of events in the past is told by Hylden murals, they described that the Vampires attacked them first by orders from the Elder God, whom didnt take very well that the Hylden didnt summited themselves to the wheel and they choosed to be inmortal instead (inmortality in the sense that you dont die until you get killed, so maybe its more like Eternal Life). The Elder God sparked the genocidial hatred towards the Hylden to the point that the Vampires made the Pillars and banished the Hylden, but the Hylden casted the curse of bloodthirst, sterility and eternal life upon the vampires, so they were abandoned by the Elder God (who doesnt need them anymore since they cant die) by remaining silent, possibly so they get depresed to the point of suicide and their souls be liverated from their bodies to return to the wheel even if that mean the extintion of their race (i believe that Tony Jay was channeling Judge Frollo while doing his voice acting sesions, they are the same self righteus asshole)
Also, Raziel in Soul Reaver 2 even ask the Elder God if he actually made HIM an industructible wraith reaper of souls or he became a one without the Elder God assistance, hinting a third element that is yet to be seen

For the Hylden power to "see" the future, its not really a problem related to Raziel. I mean, in Defiance you see they planned ahead so munch to the point that Raziel free will is useless because how well everything went for the Hylden. That is why Blood Omen 2 comes as a week game. If they could masterfully predict every possibility for a being like Raziel who has free will and win then why someone like Kain would stop them if he is not supposed to have free will?? after all, they could have seen the future of Kain and kill him before the events of Blood Omen 2 could even begin. After all, the Hylden Lord defeated younger kain and stole his Soul Reaver in the intro of Blood Omen 2, so what stops him from stabing Younger Kain?? You may say that killing Raziel or Kain doesnt work because they always come back to life (Raziel being indestrutible and Kain being the Scion of Balance mentioned in Defiance) and you may be right if it wasnt for the titular Soul Reaver sword. That sword just screams convenience that it can kill permanently anything regardless if you can heal the wounds. If that sword absorvs your soul then there is nothing you can do about it, you will probably live inside the sword trapped for all the eternity, just like Raziel in every time loop.
That makes the encounter of Kain and Raziel in Willian The Just chapel more brillant, the people who manipulated them into that moment NEEDED that Raziel and the Soul Reaver to be together to make a paradox but also needed that Kain became deader than dead so he wont save Raziel from entering the reaver later on Soul Reaver 2. Thus making the timeline fit together without interference.
There is one thing that bugs me. The Hylden keep refering to Older Kain as The Scion of Balance, and they refer to Young Kain as Kain. Do they actually believe that those 2 are diferent persons?? Is that why they planned for Raziel to kill Older Kain in the Avernous Cathedral before possesing Janos Audron and they forgot about Young Kain because he was a weakling??? even if that weakling actually proves their undoing??

Your theory of Raziel sacrificing himself makes a paradox because he cant kill Kain is half right. You see, Raziel actually DID kill Kain in the Avernous Cathedral battle that lead to Raziel ripping the Heart of Darkness out of Kain. In the murals that the Vampire Citadel actually shows 2 outcomes of the prophesy of the battle, one shows the the vampire hero killing the Hylden hero and another mural show the inverse, the hylden hero killing the vampire hero. The murals didnt predict that Raziel would tear the heart out of Kain but instead it said that he will just die..........and die he did, just to come back to life for some reason. That reason, according to the writers, is the nature of the Scion of Balance that keeps him alive and i could call it bullshit but like i said before, killing with the Soul Reaver seemed like a part of the plan to make sure he doesnt come back regardless of how indistructible or inmortal he is.
So that brings us to this plot hole. When Kain confronts Moebius in the Vampire Citadel at the end of Defiance, Moebius is SHOCKED to see Kain alive. If Moebius can see the future then why he didnt see that Raziel DIDNT kill Kain WITH the Soul Reaver but instead he ripped the heart from Kain??? When you meet Moebius as Raziel in Vorador Mantion he was so fucking pleased that you killed Kain that he seemed oblivious to the fact that you didnt finish him with the reaver, you know, the weapon that makes absolutely that whatever it kills stays dead forever??? and he acts like it wasnt supposed to be alive after "dying" without a heart. So that means that they didnt actually plan to kill indestructible enemies with the reaver and instead they needed it to make the paradox and nothing else??

Now the other half of your theory makes sort of sense because of the paradox made by Raziel entering the reaver in Defiance................but it isnt show. I dont know i am making sense here so let me expand. Remember the vertigo and displacement that happens when 2 reavers of diferent time periods meet during the events of Soul Reaver 2?? well, somehow they forgot to add that effect in the finale of Defiance where Raziel comits the heroic sacrifice. You may say that it was fated to happen because we know the spectral reaver that Raziel holds in his arm still simbolises his eventual fate to be trapped in the sword. But technically, the events in Soul Reaver 2 were FATED to happen even in the presence of a paradox, all it was needed is to make a choice there and it will change history so the same could be aplied to the scene in Defiance. Anything could have gone wrong ther, like: What if Raziel speech of healing Kain and that its the only choice didnt convince him and pulled the sword out, posponing even MORE the eventual fate?? or what if Kain heards him and tells Raziel that there is another way and he is just being manipulated again and Raziel pull the sword out again now that Kain told him that there is another way?? After all, we, the players, know that Kain and Raziel havent been fully cooperative in the sense of giving each other information that was actually useful, most of the time that they are on screen they have already jumped to conclusion before the meeting, and could just been avoided if they actually take their time to tell each other what conclusions they have reached with the evidence so far, but because they are so tired of constant manipulation (especially Raziel) they end up doing EXACTLY what the enemies wanted instead of taking the time to think.
They NEEDED to place the vertigo and displacement effect or the scene would feel less powerfull. In the sense that even if Raziel could choose not to enter the sword, he still doesnt because he fully believes that its the only way. Showing how determined he is to not take the easy road to escape his destiny.

As for Raziel giving Kain free will in his last breath is kind of a strech, i believe it could be pulled off. However i also think that it is not the case. Again, think back when a decition is made DURING a paradox that was SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN but it didnt, the timeline violently arranges itselft to a path of less resistance to acomodate this monumental desition. So you think that a decition of purify Kain and grant him free will would have been THE MOST DEVASTING PARADOX seen in the series sinse someone like Kain who is a magnificient bastard could use this new found free will to finally fix everything............but it didnt. That is why i keep telling you that for that scene in Defiance, the vertigo and displacement for Raziel entering the reaver willingly and grant Kain free will would have turned the tables of destiny upside down but we cant be sure because we didnt see it happen, the scene played out like another cutscene that was not powerfull enough.

It has been a long time since I have seen a story as deep as the LoK series. The only gripe I have with the series is a few potholes that have yet to be explained, which is sad because we have all sorts of elements in play that can make massive, deep, story arcs. Time bubbles, loops that exist only because they created a paradox that allows them to exist, ancient vampire lore.

Now it has been a long while but I remember my disappointment reading some of these theories on the Eidos Interactive website only to watch moderators shoot them down... without the game developers putting anything in their place or writing in weak explanations that are only a fraction as deep and well thought out as the fan based stuff. Really: if you have such a dedicated fan-base, use their damn ideas! That being said, so much of the plot line was well written and a lot of it was very deep, so over all it rates as one of my most favorite series of all time.

PS: thank you for bringing this back to mind, I will have to find and replay all the LoK series again. It was nice to see two of my favorite characters again and I have not touched the series in a long time so it will be great to see them once more.

this was always one of my favourite game series. Soul reaver was the first game where I realized, that a deepper story was possible. I'm still hoping for the reboot

I've never played a LoK game... But everything I've heard about them tells me that I would love the story.

And it's pretty amazing and sad that a game with such amazing voice work (I've seen video clips) came out on the first generation of CD-ROM based consoles. Compare that, to, say, Final Fantasy X...and, well, yeah, you remember those voices don't you?

I guess I can't help but wonder... Is it worth it to go back and play the series at this point, especially considering its now defunct and doesn't have a full resolution?

DioWallachia:

[quote="RJ 17" post="6.335582.13562156"]

[quote="DioWallachia" post="6.335582.13561526"]

-snip-

Every time I read such a detailed text of LoK by a fan I am so happy and sad at the same time, because
I can see clearly, that probably the strong core of fans of this series, love these games so much and
would love to get a sequel of great quality to answer all questions and get a well deserved good
ending.
But I'm sad because, I'm afraid it isn't going to be happening, at least any time soon.
We may have a strong core, and probably a lot of fans or newcomers who would buy a new entry on day
one, but I think that's still not enough, this brilliant series was never marketed enough,(certainly not like Mrs. Croft ... ) so while we who know it love it to death, business wise we are still just a few people, and no one is willing to invest millions of dollars in a game if it isn't gonna turn profit.
Maybe in the hands of another publisher, like Activision who make swimmig pools full of money
with the yearly Call Of Dutys, could afford a "side project" to please fans even if it doesn't pay of
that well, but Eidos clearly isn't on the same terms with money and power.

Although I certainly wouldn't want the LoK IP to be acquired by anyone else, it should remain with
Crystal Dynamics. No need for DmC Ninja Theory style... And the new Devil May Cry example is sadly
a sad story where after 4 games, they gave the IP to a new developer rebooting it badly, despite the
fact that DMC4 sold more than 2 million in the
first month and was a success.

And Defiance didn't even sell well. That's why they cancelled The Dark Prohpecy - the sequel to Defiance, although that is only bad because it would have brought a conclusion. But it seemed to be the same game as Defiance, but with only Kain, nothing really new in gameplay...
Your version of a sequel, of finding the center of the Elder God, sounds awesome, I would love if with
some ancient power you would find with those lost souls, you would get the ability, to summon Raziel
from the Reaver, and use him for some time in Combat and Puzzles, also they could have a kind of
telepathic conversation to maintain the contact between the two characters.

I always thought that if I got to be a very wealthy guy I would totally fund projects, and the first
would be a LoK game. Of course, there yet is a minimal chance of this as of now and maybe forever,
but I personally would totally gather a team of LoK fans, to make sure we create a perfect game for
every lover of the franchise. And of course market the game like hell!

So many critics who people listen to, who have good tastes in games, when mentioning good or great
ones, never seem to mention the LoK series, and I think most of them probably never even played them.
The story is rich and compelling, even if a bit difficult, the world is amazing and beautiful, it
should be a contender to be considered the more artful games, I believe the series should have the
amount of fame as other TPS's like Prince of Persia, Assassins Creed and Tomb Raider.

Last Kain game I played was like 8 years ago on the ps2. Can't remember which one it was, but I do remember sucking a lot of blood when I played it.
Good times :)

Inuprince:

DioWallachia:

[quote="RJ 17" post="6.335582.13562156"]

[quote="DioWallachia" post="6.335582.13561526"]

-snip-

Every time I read such a detailed text of LoK by a fan I am so happy and sad at the same time, because
I can see clearly, that probably the strong core of fans of this series, love these games so much and
would love to get a sequel of great quality to answer all questions and get a well deserved good
ending.
But I'm sad because, I'm afraid it isn't going to be happening, at least any time soon.
We may have a strong core, and probably a lot of fans or newcomers who would buy a new entry on day
one, but I think that's still not enough, this brilliant series was never marketed enough,(certainly not like Mrs. Croft ... ) so while we who know it love it to death, business wise we are still just a few people, and no one is willing to invest millions of dollars in a game if it isn't gonna turn profit.
Maybe in the hands of another publisher, like Activision who make swimmig pools full of money
with the yearly Call Of Dutys, could afford a "side project" to please fans even if it doesn't pay of
that well, but Eidos clearly isn't on the same terms with money and power.

Although I certainly wouldn't want the LoK IP to be acquired by anyone else, it should remain with
Crystal Dynamics. No need for DmC Ninja Theory style... And the new Devil May Cry example is sadly
a sad story where after 4 games, they gave the IP to a new developer rebooting it badly, despite the
fact that DMC4 sold more than 2 million in the
first month and was a success.

And Defiance didn't even sell well. That's why they cancelled The Dark Prohpecy - the sequel to Defiance, although that is only bad because it would have brought a conclusion. But it seemed to be the same game as Defiance, but with only Kain, nothing really new in gameplay...
Your version of a sequel, of finding the center of the Elder God, sounds awesome, I would love if with
some ancient power you would find with those lost souls, you would get the ability, to summon Raziel
from the Reaver, and use him for some time in Combat and Puzzles, also they could have a kind of
telepathic conversation to maintain the contact between the two characters.

I always thought that if I got to be a very wealthy guy I would totally fund projects, and the first
would be a LoK game. Of course, there yet is a minimal chance of this as of now and maybe forever,
but I personally would totally gather a team of LoK fans, to make sure we create a perfect game for
every lover of the franchise. And of course market the game like hell!

So many critics who people listen to, who have good tastes in games, when mentioning good or great
ones, never seem to mention the LoK series, and I think most of them probably never even played them.
The story is rich and compelling, even if a bit difficult, the world is amazing and beautiful, it
should be a contender to be considered the more artful games, I believe the series should have the
amount of fame as other TPS's like Prince of Persia, Assassins Creed and Tomb Raider.

I may not be a fan, but I certainly would buy a Kain sequel or prequel if they ever decided to make one.

DioWallachia:
Yeah, no need to be summoning up walls of text. :P

Heh heh, I think the main difference between you and I is that you're seeing everything in a very complex manner that does indeed fit well with the incredibly complex manner in which the story flows. I, on the other hand, seem to be seeking out the path of least resistance, the easiest possible explinations that make sense within the confines of the story.

I do indeed remember the shockwave of distortion from the end of SR 2, when the "coin lands on its side" and time is forced to rearrange itself. To that end, I do agree in order for my theory to be correct, about Raziel causing a paradox by making it impossible for him to kill Kain because he sacrifices himself to Kain, there should have been another massive shockwave of distortion again. However this wouldn't be the first time that a monumental occurance in a game was repeated with a much lesser effect in that game's sequel, but I've yet another idea that might fit the bill.

Perhaps all that was ever needed was a single paradox, that time-altering occurance at the end of SR 2. Perhaps that single paradox is the paradox we're both looking for to allow the game to continue on. I think a quote from the end of SR 2 was something like "Throw a rock into a river and you won't stop the river, but you can divert it." It is possible that this paradox wiped out ALL the histories that were known by the Elder God, Moebius, and the Hylden and replaced it with a fresh new history which ends with Raziel sacrificing himself to Kain. The biggest problem with this theory is that it implies that Raziel never gained "true" free will, however this problem is mildly negated by one of the major themes of the story: there is no such thing as "true" free will. This wouuld mean that Raziel wasn't free to pick his own fate, he simply bound himself to a new one that none of the other groups (Moebius, Elder God, Kain, Hylden) could have foreseen because it happened long after all the foreseeing was done.

Now one of my biggest problems with the series was maintaining the timeline in the games. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the SR games take place long after the BO games? That the BO games are Kain creating and building his vampiric empire and the SR games are with Kain already established as Top Dog and Raziel's trying to toss him from his throne? That being the case, it could be said that since the massive paradox takes place in SR 2, no one would ever know how it effected history. This explains how Moebius is so shocked to see that Kain is indeed still alive when - according to the history that Moebius knows - he should have been killed by Raziel. It would also explain how the Hylden didn't see Kain's return either, since their prophecies and plans all went flawlessly before the paradox occured in SR 2. As for the Elder God, he would be the only one to know how time was effected by the end of SR 2, however since Raziel destroyed the fate and history that the Elder God had written for him with his actions at the end of SR 2, the Elder God could no longer predict how Raziel's actions will effect time since Raziel was now bound to a fate that was not supposed to happen, and so he has to carefully choose his words and actions with Raziel in an attempt to manipulate Raziel back into killing Kain, thus completing the timeline just as the Elder God had origially written it.

As for your proposed sequel of plunging into the ancient depths of Nosgoth and finding all the forgotten civilizations that the Elder God has dragged down to be devoured, the simple answer to holding a conversation with a single Raziel rather than the infinited Raziels that wouuld theoretically be within the sword is to simply remove the infinity. Yes, in theory, Raziel was devoured countless times by the sword. But to the Kain at the end of Defiance, it happened only once. And it is from that point of view, that of Kain's at the end of Defiance, that we'd follow on into the next game and as such that is the only Kain and point of view that remains relevant in the LoK universe. As such there would indeed only be 1 Raziel in his sword, and I really did like the idea that another poster mentioned: perhaps Kain acquires an ancient power while traveling to the core that allows him to summon Raziel from the sword, allowing you to play as Raziel in the Spirit Realm to solve puzzles and such.

I was a big fan of this series myself. It's in my collection of all time favourites. I remember puzzling my noggin on the conundrum of buying Blood Omen II from the game store when I was still 13.

I heard that at some point they were working on another installment to follow from Defiance, but it got cancelled quite early.

Reboots sound cool, but are a bit icky because of voice acting and plot issues. Tony Jay is a problem for voices, and there's also no telling if the other guys could still voice their parts with the same quality.

Still series had so many interesting elements to work with. Something new done in the spirit of the old games would be awesome in this generation. Story in games has been lackluster on the whole for a while now.

come to think of it, i've never beaten any Legacy of Kain games

remnant_phoenix:
I've never played a LoK game... But everything I've heard about them tells me that I would love the story.

And it's pretty amazing and sad that a game with such amazing voice work (I've seen video clips) came out on the first generation of CD-ROM based consoles. Compare that, to, say, Final Fantasy X...and, well, yeah, you remember those voices don't you?

I guess I can't help but wonder... Is it worth it to go back and play the series at this point, especially considering its now defunct and doesn't have a full resolution?

It is worth to go back and play because this is a gem that has been forgotten, kinda like how the movie Citizen Kane is claimed to be the best movie of all time now and back then in 1941 (Even if Citizen Kane actually didnt manage to get its money back in the box office, damn you casual movie goers!!! Fucking casuals, always ruining ma fun since the 40's)

Lets compare, shall we? both have a good soundtrack, decent cinematograpy (Citizen Kane made popular the use of Chiaroscuro) And even if a video game using cinematic cutscenes in these days seems like common ground (or a taboo if they are very long and UNSKIPABLE like in this series) back then it was quite an accomplishment specially if it is made with the in-game engine up to every detail in the body language.
Legacy of Kain also had excellent voice acting from the start back in 1996 and when they jumped to the 3D platforming in Soul Reaver, it didnt FAIL has horribly as the others of its time (Bubsy 3D says hi) and i remind you that there is the dual world platforming (Material and Spectral Realm) and that means more jumping puzles that dont fail (You may say that Legend of Zelda made the dual first but that was in 2D, Soul Reaver made it first for the 3D era and IT WORKED PERFECTLY)

As you may notice, the selling point is that the story is quite well made even if if the very first ones are quite generic in the start. Kain gets killed in the first game (Blood Omen) and resurrected as a vampire and wants revenge and a cure for his vampiric curse, and the Lieutenant Raziel (in Soul Reaver) gets casted on the Lake of the Death for surpassing Kain in the evolution chain and guess what? he wants revenge. There is however the fact Kain told stories about his adventures to his closest minions and Raziel learned very quickly how a revenge scheme may bite you in the ass and everyone around you, especially if there are time traveling involved. So you think that he wont fuck up like Kain did, right?? WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG, you have yet to see how fucked up and corrupt the world of Nosgoth has become. There are so many plot twist to make your head explode and that is just the tip of the iceberg

Now bear with me while i call reinforcement down here

Trishbot:

I am quoting you to take your attention to this

Burningsok:

I am quoting you to take your attention to this. Also the fact that i am quoting everyone here is because NO ONE ever reads the comments past the first and second page unless quoted (remember this, its a plot point for what i am about to say later)

Inuprince:

Also quoting here

Shark Wrangler:

I will explain the " Yes to Reimagining, no reboot or remake" in a few seconds

poiumty:

And you too

Kitsuna10060:

You wont miss this wall of text that is about to come. I assure you.

Jinx_Dragon:

Gonna need you to confirm my theories i am about to say

andy_wolfe:

Welcome aboard to the Hall of Dissapointed Fans. The "Games are art" section is at your right

Now back on topic with remnant_phoenix:

I am going to sound like a nostalgic moron, but the games back then were simple and like a dinner at midnight. Games like this one are like a series of books that you read once and get satisfied to the point that you may read it again in the future when you want to have a new perspective of how the events ocurred. The games today however cram so many things to do that, once you finish once, you get terrified by the sheer amount of stuff you may have to do AGAIN in order to fully experience everything there is to offer (get all those ultra hidden stuff in the hyper mega difficult dungeon to get the "golden threesome ending") and you may not try it again

So, you problem is that you may get dissapointed because the series was never finished. And you may be right. A series like this i quite a shame that it didnt impact in the world. Does that mean that there is nothing to offer?? Actually there is, but if you are a video game producer, they series may seem like a total failure.

Again, lets go back to the Citizen Kane example. Good critical reviews and no enough box office returns. In the words of the producer, its a piece of shit and bad news for any movie i am financing. EVERYTHING in this movie is bad news and i dont care if it has good camera angles, a simple character study about the legacy of Charles Foster Kane (get it???) where we see its raise and fall or even good lightning for dramatic effect also know as Chiaroscuro. If i ever take notes of this movie i will lose money that i will rightfully steal from the dumb masses. I am right :D ???

So you may enjoy this series for what it is, but also keep in mind that this is perhaps a moment in history where we look back at what it could be the most original and well tough series in gaming history ..............that somehow, like Citizen Kane, went forgotten until now. If you are into exploring the possible reasons of why such thing didnt came to be, then this series may entertain you outside the games as well. Lets see........

"The series slowly loosed its fanbase because they were made in the Golden Age of Gaming (1996-2003) where the best examples of video games were available"
That its sort off true. Take a look for example to what i was playing back then:

Populous 3: The Beggining
Dungeon Keeper 1 and 2
Black & White
Messiah
Sacrifice
MDK
Diablo 2
Hexen and Heretic
Decent
Rise of The Triad
Blood
Tyrian
Vynil Goddess From Mars
Psychonauts
Requiem the Avenging Angel (it sucked and had a lots of bugs tough)
Heroes 3 Of Might And Magic

To name a few. So as you can see, Legacy of Kain had (miracleously) survived in a ocean of games where the innovation and weirdness were at his highest. And lets face it, back then we didnt have hopes for video games to have a coerent plot other than kill things because they are on the way mostly because other games focused on the fun aspect (is not a bad thing) and mostly because we didnt know any better, kinda like how a Twilight fan didnt read any other book in his life and think this one is the best of all (are you ashamed yet??). But not for long

"The Series is too complicated for its own good"
Not really, it more like one the the few examples back then where the sequels arent the same guy in another situation (sort of like Indiana Jones) but rather a continuation of the events left off in a previous game. You may be thinking that a series like this would make people actually pay and play for the previous titles to catch up with the story of the game that they started with, so in the end more money for the company, right?? Well, it would if it wasnt that the people is too fucking lazy to do just that, "buying things that may or may not give me the answer i desire is too risky" they will think. Sort of like when in a political debate, one of the debateers acuses another of being a child molester and the people inmediately go for the path of less resistance and assume that he actually is a monster because "you can never be sure"
Besides, if you mean in the sense that its too deep to undertand then dont worry, the characters (if you pay any fucking atention) will monologue about their current situation and options most of the time (not because the developers think you are a moron) because they too are trying to piece together what they just learned and what does it mean in the grand scale of their destiny. Take for example Raziel in Defiance, you think he has droped a few IQ since Soul Reaver 2 because he is relating thing we already know, but if you remember what happened in Soul Reaver 2, the last time he got overconfident and arrogant got him not killed but almost trapped eternally in the Reaver, so he is trying to make sence to that again before jumping to conclusions.

"Amy Hennig (the writer of the series from Soul Reaver and onward) didnt want to make an original series because it cost too munch, its too diferent to the mainstream audience and coming up with ideas is kinda hard"
Well, there is actual effort put into this series and since the series was SUPPOSED to end in Soul Reaver (meaning that only 2 games would exist) i think that they were trying to go for a Citizen Kain here if we consider the content of Soul Reaver, rather than milking the series, they wanted to give us a experience here

Now i am going to be honest here, when i heard that Crystal Dinamics only cared for the Tomb Raider games and Amy left the developers to make the Uncharted games i said to myself "what a fucking bitch, what the hell are you doing riping off Indiana Jones?? You may as well stayed on Crystal Dinamics where they will market Lara as a sex symbol because otherwise you wont get a paycheck at the end of the month. So munch for the "writers focus on creative expression, video games will greatly improve" isnt it?? And the worst part is that the Uncharted series is going to get a movie. I know that from a marketing perspective, abusing the Indiana Jones style of movie is kite a good idea since the people who watched the Crystal Skull have been scared for life, and need someone else to power their fantasies of adventure but for fuck sake lady, dont you think that an original series like, i dont know, FUCKING TIME TRAVELING VAMPIRES is better that this shit??? I guess you have to play it safe with the writing otherwise the people may get scared with something good and diferent"

But then i realised, that i cant really blame the lady at this point. I beheld the fall of this lady with a new sense of horror. I can see how hard is to make a video game today compared to making movies since more things could go wrong in a game than in a movie. And lets not forget that the incompetent news media has been always looking for an excuse to demonize games long ago (forgeting the fact that violence has been around forever) but they only focus on the ones that are marketed very strongly (doing actual research may seem like work -_- and besides its not like other games exist, i am right Ebert??) So trying something that has already worked and passed under the radar is kinda the way to go.
Lets take for example "The Binding Of Isaac". If this game get to be well know, then the media would explode and abuse this thing to death and i remind you that this game shows the old christian propaganda as evil, God as a prick (mind you, he saved Isaac in the end but the ordeal that the kid had to suffer doesnt justify this), Deals with the devil to improve survival chance. Hopefully this game relatively obscure and sadly it has to stay that way until a mayor number of people have played it and can defend it from the ignorant masses.
Fuck, how about "Six Days in Fallujah" mentioned in the Extra Credits of Facing Controversy?? They are even critising the games for being called "games" because apparently judging thing in context may........you know.... make sense. Its official, we are in the middle age again. Just like when they mention "Alchemy" and the people take the pitforks and torches because its related to magic and we have to rename the fucking thing to "Chemisty" because you know its not like that its core is the same thing. (The alchemy analogy may also be used in a Minecraft forum to defend a harmless update, be carefull tough) And yes, i fully expect a Spanish Inquisition, why you ask?? When people are this stupid is kinda hard to make something original without getting fired or hold any hope that it will survive the test of time when there is no future. And it brings us to this........

"The advent of the Internet actually ruined the Legacy Of Kain series" hear this while you read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZzAwDy6frY
I know what are you going to say: "But Emperor Dio Extrrrrrrrrrrrrravaganza of Wallachia The 21th, how could the most powerfull tool for comunication that mankind ever made could possibly be responsible for this series downfall and many others?? you clearly have gone off your meds and therefore your opinion is invalid. HAR HAR HAR"
Well (i will reply) Actually i am writing this in the middle of the night and i havent finish this fucking post since the morning because (i am sorry but i must tell you) i have a normal life and i am kinda tired. Besides, that is something i have to say right here and is not the piracy. Lets face it, most of us have a very high opinion of ourselves and our tastes so when Internet was made popular we werent happily exchanging video game recomendations and porn but instead we were exchanging insults about shipping Raziel-Kain and Raziel does Janos up the ass, saying that someone mom appears to have slept with many other people (time travel may be involved) and curiously, most of the people that you disagree happens to be nazis. So nothing back then was being advanced, and when you were bored you loaded a video on Youtube, while you think how many sock puppets you need to agree with you during these "holy war" where logic has no place, you saw other games and lets plays and eventually forgot about your "humble" crusade, in fact, you felt bad for even asking something for fear to the hardcore people to smash your noob face for asking about some plot holes without knowing Quatum Physics first to even DARE, DARE I TELL YOU!! to talk in the forums and you brain now associates the subject of LoK to painful shame. HOWEVER that is not the only thing. Have you ever felt.............empty..... playing a single player game?? Like, you enjoy the game but something is missing or you fell kinda bad for enjoying it???? That is your social instict playing on your emotions, you seek aprobal for your hobies and actions because you think you are wasting your time and should be doing other things like beating your wife or neglecting the children or making a 90 minutes autopsy of the Star Wars Prequels. And aparently some producers knew about that and decided to fix it by making multiplayer based games over the single player campaing kind of games. Playing on our instic of proving that our dicks are bigger than the neibour next door, and the fact that every single fucking parent in existance read too many self help books that told them to never treat like shit their kids or they may have a horrendous hibrid of a
Nazi-Commi-Bin Laden for a son, seeking revenge on the world. So These parent told us that we are the profesied godsend child who is unique as a snowflake and they allowed us...oh i am sorry, i mean, they SUGGESTED to our lord and savior that having internet in our house for multiplayer experience may be fun.....at the same time as many other parent in the world............It went as well as you imagined. And with many addictive games where you can show how long is your lvl 69 staff of penetration today, is kinda clear that they ALL learned from the first guys. Remember, a winning formula is one that makes money flow, making shit for the art its not going to buy another moon on Jupiter.

And worst of all, even if we were lvl headed to not do that, you may still think that your taste is superior to anyone else even if its the only thing you ever read/play/watch to the point that event with the most powerfull tool of information you are and WILL do something as stupid as this:
http://www.latinoreview.com/news/open-letter-to-universal-your-wolfman-ripped-off-twilight-9247
(sinse this is Legacy of Kain, you actually HAVE good taste but lets just stick with the example here)

So yeah, the series died because we failed at being human beings and were easily mislead into liking other things that were designed to be adictive like chocolate but not fullfiling like Ravioly with Bologneza (Janos Audron said it best)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uzv_Or8UOY&feature=related
Consider us now less of what we once were
We, experienced but incapable to change anything; and the gaming industry, resoursefull, but corrupted

- Shark Wrangler

The word that the fans SHOULD have researched for is "Remastering" Soul Reaver 1.
They keep the game intact but upgrade the graphics so they are able to do more subtle body language like in Soul Reaver 2 and possibly make the scenery more beautiful, so the impact of seing the world destroyed is more effective AND they should add the lost content that was intended for the original Soul Reaver 1 but was scrapped. It should be in form of a choice (because free will is a theme here) If we manage to weaken Kain and make him retreat instead of escaping with the time portal that will lead to the events of Soul Reaver 2, then the game will go on as it was intended:
Adquiring the "Shifting Planes at Will" to get in the cult of vampires in the human citadel and adquiring "Possession" to get in Turel's Area, all the way to Nubraptor's Retreat where Kain escaped, and finally, the Silenced Cathedral most inner sanctum where the you will active the humans weapon to destroy the vampires of the world once and for all.

No remake, no reboot. Just that. After all it will be cheap for the producers to put money into, just upgrade the graphics and make the content that is ALREADY on the CDs available, connect a few dots and done. Easiest quick money ever and the fans will enjoy a game that is just like it was before without being dumbed down to the masses.

Also, older fans may notice that this remastering will make the second game in the series where the "bad" ending (Kain escapes in the time portal) is canon just like the "bad" ending from Blood Omen 1 that is canon. The "good" endings also end in a bad taste if you actually know how what really was happening. In Blood Omen 1, the "good" ending was to sacrifice yourself to restore the Pillars of Nosgoth and seemed like a a noble cause........until you learn that this will mean the extinction of the vampire race and their bloodline is what ACTUALLY kept the Pillars intact and keeping the Hylden in their place, meaning that this choice was doomed from the start. As for the "good" planned ending of Soul Reaver 1, once again the vampires are extinct in this scenario so there is even less chance of restoring the pillars and the world, and since the Elder God only cares for the souls he feeds, this may probably mean that his golden age of squishy mortal humans has begun. Worst case scenario, he may convince Raziel to travel back in time to get manipulated by Moebius so he gets to see the vampire prophesies and Janos Audron so he gets mad at the Sarafan, tries to kill them and return the hearth to Janos, but gets eaten by the Blood Reaver who becomes the Soul Reaver that later will end in the hands of Younger Kain and history repeats itself

- RJ 17
"It is possible that this paradox wiped out ALL the histories that were known by the Elder God, Moebius, and the Hylden and replaced it with a fresh new history which ends with Raziel sacrificing himself to Kain"
"It would also explain how the Hylden didn't see Kain's return either, since their prophecies and plans all went flawlessly before the paradox occured in SR 2"
"The biggest problem with this theory is that it implies that Raziel never gained "true" free will"
I hardly agree with that because the Hylden (for example) actually knew about the other timelines enough to actually BENEFIT from the paradox that Kain and Raziel where resposible off and werent aware that it was actually part of the plan. So it doesnt bug me that they knew alot of the timelines, it bugs me that they failed to see a bit more farther in the future to see that in the new timeline that THEY ALLOWED TO EXIST they end up losing to Younger Kain. The only logical explanation is that, if we think of the revenge theme in the series, The Hylden were only obseded of kill ONLY the ancient vampires and destroy the pillars. They were and always be the cause of their pain, its because of the vampires delusions caused by the Elder God, that they were imprisioned in a demonic dimention that they would spend forever going mad for isolation, and every second the hatred will grow more and more into becoming perfect clarity with only one objetive in mind.....REVENGE!!!!!!
I also work under the assumption the Hylden had a very limited capability to see the future unlike the Elder God or Moebius; simply because i believe the pillars also had the feature of blocking most of the Hylden powers to a minimum besides of locking them down. After all, a race that was capable to hold down the vampire to a stalemate HAS to be quite powerfull in the same aspects as the vampires, but they made the pillars first. Yet the Hylden managed to predict that paradox in Soul Reaver 2, with the limited resourses they had, that lead them to be free and make the events of Blood Omen 2.

Also the true free will his not well defined in this world, if we take the rules seriously then the free will is granted for anyone who is next to a paradox (because Raziel is walking with himself in his arm he is a mini paradox with legs) But not sure if the free will in this case is the inmunity to be predicted by Omnicient beings (Moebius even says that no one can predict him but they consider the repercusion of his posible actions) Maybe in this world, anyone has free will but it so happens that since there are so many omnicient players around, they ALWAYS say and act in the same way in the time periods they are so their victims end up doing the same thing over and over. But we have to stick with one set of rules and since its apparent that everyone want to manipulate Raziel and he happens to be the one with the sword of overkill and a walking paradox, i assume that free will is for the people next to a paradox
That means that every time that something like this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMrou_zJNtc&feature=related
The Raziel and The Kain during that lapse of free will they had there will say and act diferently, The Kain will probably say something diferent each time loop to convince Raziel. That is why, as a fail safe, the people manipulating them actually made sure that the Soul Reaver went berseker so it will stab Kain as soon as possible to avoid more complications)

Now here is something i dont undertand, we know that the Hylden were responsible for the corruption of the Circle of Nine that eventually lead Kain to make a choice to restore the pillars, but only in Blood Omen 2 we get to see them outside the dimencion they were trapped. So.......why didnt they invade in the timeline previous to the second paradox in Soul Reaver 2?? I mean, didnt they made all the Blood Omen 1 thing so they could escape?? both choices made by kain will eventually lead to the pillars being destroyed so what is stopping them from appearing in the world or be even mention in Soul Reaver 1?? Aparently it was the resurrection of Janos Audron what made them go in with full force, but Janos wont be even alive if it wasnt for the fucking Hylden!! if they leave the timeline intact they could just invade and not worry about Janos but no invasion was made and if it was, it wasnt even mention by Kain. In fact he looked quite surpriced when the new memories formed in his mind after the second paradox in Soul Reaver 2 finale so he hasnt heard of anything Hylden related before until the timeline with Blood Omen 2 was formed

I need a rest, you all may answer as you desire

DioWallachia:
Holy fucking shit

Reading this entire post carefully would probably occupy my entire day (reading is the 99%) so I'll just skim through it and answer what I think is important:

Soul Reaver doesn't need a remastering. It serves no purpose outside of nostalgia. Remember Soul Reaver was the direct continuation of Blood Omen, a complex story in its own right which needs to be understood before anyone tries to go into SR, otherwise all they would end up with was questions. And contrary to what you may think, doing all the animations, models, effects etc. is around 90% of the budget for a game so it wouldn't be dirt cheap as you're trying to assume. And I kind of prefer what came of the original story (with all the time fuckery and stuff) instead of the conclusion that was supposed to be, because SR2 was better than its predecessor in my opinion.
So if you're gonna remaster SR, then you pretty much need to remaster the whole series and I'd rather not see that either because it'd just repeat history all over again.

That's the thing with games - people aren't looking at games (or movies for that matter) as if they'd want to read a good book - the people who prefer the writing, the story of a game to its mechanics aren't as prevalent as the people who just want a small amount of shallow enjoyment and gratification to tidy up their rotten day. The problem with a thinking man's game is that there are way less thinking men than there are people who just want their bread and circuses. That's why Citizen Kane didn't get the popularity it deserved, and why simple, shallow, but addictive mechanics will always win over the population next to a deeper and more complicated story. Add to that the fact that the gameplay of the LoK series in general was a bit mediocre, with nothing to stand out about it other than the fact that it worked, and the outcome becomes unsurprising.

Perhaps porting the LoK series to another medium would capture people's attention - an LoK movie or book, if done right, would be amazing - but for now we're stuck with a dead, unresolved series that had the potential of being one of the greatest of all time, yet it was either too ahead of its time or not in the right medium. It's a damn shame, but there's nothing we can do about it.

As for the Hylden, I'm not sure what you're talking about. The Hylden are the demons that invade previous to the second paradox in SR2. The green, black and red demons that you fight as Raziel - those are Hylden. It's mentioned in Defiance that their visage changed from being trapped in the other realm. As for why they don't look that way in BO2, we can assume that not all of them changed. The reason they're not present in SR1 was because Kain supposedly shut their portal down in BO2 forever. The story does have its plot holes, it's not fireproof in any way.

DioWallachia:
Or how about taking the third option and get Walt Disney out of the freezer to do the voice?? in the movies he was in, i could clearly tell he has a nice baritone voice that may actually pass for the real thing :D

Not quite enough of a Disney buff to know what movies he did voices for.... or that he even did voices in the first place. o.O

DioWallachia:
the greatest wall of text, in the HISTORY of walls of text

holy mother of god man!! calling it a 'wall of text' is a fucking understatement, you typed out a god damned Chrysler building!!

poiumty:

Perhaps porting the LoK series to another medium would capture people's attention - an LoK movie or book, if done right, would be amazing - but for now we're stuck with a dead, unresolved series that had the potential of being one of the greatest of all time, yet it was either too ahead of its time or not in the right medium. It's a damn shame, but there's nothing we can do about it.

I'm with you here, been saying it for years to. the Legacy of Kain as a book would be pretty much awesome and really, a book would be more flushed out in details or tie up the few remain plot threads from Defiance (cause really, it didn't leave to many left)

Kitsuna10060:

DioWallachia:
the greatest wall of text, in the HISTORY of walls of text

holy mother of god man!! calling it a 'wall of text' is a fucking understatement, you typed out a god damned Chrysler building!!

poiumty:

Perhaps porting the LoK series to another medium would capture people's attention - an LoK movie or book, if done right, would be amazing - but for now we're stuck with a dead, unresolved series that had the potential of being one of the greatest of all time, yet it was either too ahead of its time or not in the right medium. It's a damn shame, but there's nothing we can do about it.

I'm with you here, been saying it for years to. the Legacy of Kain as a book would be pretty much awesome and really, a book would be more flushed out in details or tie up the few remain plot threads from Defiance (cause really, it didn't leave to many left)

I was about to say that there was a novel of Blood Omen 1, but after clearing my memories, i saw in this website that actually its just a japanese release of the game and i mistook the cover for a book cover. http://www.thelostworlds.net/Library/

In case if there IS a book for this series, it has to be about Moebius or the Elder God perspective. Mainly because the time travel rules and the omnicient powers arent well explain to begin with. And its head scratching how these 2 could even make mistakes with such power. Knowing their limitations and what kind of character flaw they have to even disregard the possibility of a paradox being introduced without the proper handling may be nice.
Or of course, there is the time within Blood Omen 2 and Soul Reaver 1 that may be nice to see. How long Kain has spent in the Chronoplast Chamber too see when he needed to take the risk of making a decision during a paradox (a decision that apparently didn't know that it will cause the Hylden invasion)

I love you, that's all I have to say.

I doubt it would ever come to pass but, could you imagine a new LoK written by Amy Hennig and developed by Naughty Dog? It'd be linear as hell, but it would be incredible!

Oh, and; VAE VICTUS!

As much as I desperately long for a new LoK game, it isn't going to happen. Too many issues have arisen that would prevent a new addition to the series, problems that are truly insurmountable: the death of Tony Jay; Michael Bell not wanting to voice Raziel any more; Crystal dynamics shameful obsession with the Tomb Raider series and Amy Hennig leaving the company have pretty much made any chance of a new LoK game non-existent... or at least the chance for another good LoK game.

DioWallachia:

Kitsuna10060:

DioWallachia:
the greatest wall of text, in the HISTORY of walls of text

holy mother of god man!! calling it a 'wall of text' is a fucking understatement, you typed out a god damned Chrysler building!!

poiumty:

Perhaps porting the LoK series to another medium would capture people's attention - an LoK movie or book, if done right, would be amazing - but for now we're stuck with a dead, unresolved series that had the potential of being one of the greatest of all time, yet it was either too ahead of its time or not in the right medium. It's a damn shame, but there's nothing we can do about it.

I'm with you here, been saying it for years to. the Legacy of Kain as a book would be pretty much awesome and really, a book would be more flushed out in details or tie up the few remain plot threads from Defiance (cause really, it didn't leave to many left)

I was about to say that there was a novel of Blood Omen 1, but after clearing my memories, i saw in this website that actually its just a japanese release of the game and i mistook the cover for a book cover. http://www.thelostworlds.net/Library/

In case if there IS a book for this series, it has to be about Moebius or the Elder God perspective. Mainly because the time travel rules and the omnicient powers arent well explain to begin with. And its head scratching how these 2 could even make mistakes with such power. Knowing their limitations and what kind of character flaw they have to even disregard the possibility of a paradox being introduced without the proper handling may be nice.
Or of course, there is the time within Blood Omen 2 and Soul Reaver 1 that may be nice to see. How long Kain has spent in the Chronoplast Chamber too see when he needed to take the risk of making a decision during a paradox (a decision that apparently didn't know that it will cause the Hylden invasion)

i'd say ether the over grown squids perspective or Kain's, Moebius was never really that interesting to me, yeah he was 'omnicient' and important to the general everything going on, but he seemed pretty 1 dimensional to me, but the elder god is a whole other story, same with Kain, there was a LOT that they did that got no screen that was just as important as anything Moebius did.

but then, maybe there was something in Blood Omen 2 he did to be interesting, :/ that's the only one i haven't played, and the only one i don't have, nor have then money to spare to get >.<

The quote function is broken (again for Christ sake) so i depend of you actually coming around this post if i replied or not

--- to poiumty ----

The demons that appeared in Soul Reaver 2 cannot be Hylden but instead they are inhabitants from the dimencion that the Hylden were banished. But for the sake of argument lets just pretend that they are Hylden for a moment. We seem them in Soul Reaver 2 for the first time in Nosgoth future (100+ years after the Pillars collapse) and they appeared in Nosgoth past (500 years before the collapse of the Pillars) to stop Raziel to progress any further to retrieve Janos Audron heart. Now, if they are able to jump from the other dimencion to this one 500 years back, then the Pillars have already failed to do their job because all that the Hylden needed to do is just slowly teleport one by one here and there wont be a need to make the Pillars collapse anyway nor any massive scheme. Remember, the Pillars are supposed to keep them there AND reduce their powers to a minimun. After all, this is the race that was the equal to the Vampires in every level and imprisining isnt going to do anything because they will just warp back here, so i assume (never explained) that the Pillars ALSO reduce any reality altering power to null. But even then it seems so simple to just warp until every Hylden is free.
So, again, this was before the second paradox in Soul Reaver 2 and we see that both in the future and the past they can warp in Nosgoth at will without the help of that portal in Blood Omen 2 (that doesnt exist in this timeline yet) And yet, we dont see Kain mention them in Soul Reaver 1 nor Raziel shows any knowledge about them either; After all, Kain used to tell his adventures to his liutenuants when he was making the empire in the future, so you would expect at least to mention that a fucking army of extradimencional demons who hated vampires tried to take over the world, and since they can warp to the Nosgoth world anytime they would have tried it in both timelines.
It would make a bit more sence if the Demons werent Hylden but instead the habitans of the dimencion that the Hylden were banished to. Then, they would get brainwashed or converted to the cause of the Hylden to act as agents for them, because the dimencional barriers are Hylden-proof but doesnt include other races.

So now the only problem left is that we dont know why they didnt invade after the Pillars were gone in the original timeline (that is the events up to the finale of Blood Omen 1, including the time travel that made Kain the last vampire on Nosgoth) Alright then, we know that both choises are rigged to make the Hylden win (either by the extintion of the vampire bloodline that keep the pillars intact or by destroying them when you refuse) but there are no mention of any Hylden in the Blood Omen 1 >> Soul Reaver 1 timeskip. Apparently it was because they needed Janos Audron to be alive to use him in a machine that kills every living creature on Nosgoth. For what?? why do they care to kill every creature in the world?? arent they in a vendeta against the Vampires?? i know i said before that they are mad and deranged for imprisionement but they have at least some coherent capability to actually make a plan. A plan that resulted in a timeline where they dont win anyway (failed to check a bit more far into the future, eh?) Cant they just invade without Janos and kill everyone or open the chest of everyone to look for the heart and THEN use the machine??
They planned to kill every creature alive because that would prevent for more creatures to be born and eventually kill to be returned to the wheel and since they are inmortal and cant be returned to the wheel, there is little the Elder God can do and will possibly starve him to death. That is a nice explanation of their omnicidal tendencies but it left you to wonder why wont the tell the vampires about the Elder God if they knew if he existed or who he really is

---- to Mojo el Furio ----

Wait...WHAT??? Michael Bell doesnt want to voice Raziel anymore???? how?? why?? the other stuff you said i already expected something like that (like Crystal Dinamics milking the tits of Lara for cash); But him not wanting to do a voice?? that just struck me as odd since in the voice acting sesions he seemed to have so much fun working. Is there a link somewhere to see his opinion?? In another note, if Tony Jay was alive today and said that he doesnt want to make the voice for the Elder God; i could agree with that. Such a nice guy doing evil characters would have killed him more faster. Good is alergic to evil indeed.

----- to Kitsuna10060 ----

In Blood Omen 2?? you mean for Kain or Moebius?? it doesnt matter anyway, Kain in Blood Omen 2 is just Younger kain just after BO1, so he hasnt grow up from the "take over the world and the humans are sheep to be herd" not even in the end. Vorador is inexplicably and killed at the end without explanation of why cant he be ressurected. Janos Audron is trapped in the Hylden dimension, and didnt mention anything that could make Kain know the gravity of how far his enemies planed for him to fuck up the world.
In short, nothing of value is gained

In Defiance, we get to know that the Ancient Vampires abducted human children that the Pillars chose when they are born, and then they get converted to vampires to preserve the steril vampire lineage and therefore keeping the Pillars intact and the Hylden in their place. The last humans they captured were Mortanius and Moebius who, after avoiding vampirization, they managed to make a revolt and claimed the pillars for human ownership. In one of the murals in the vampire citadel, you even see the iconic paralizis staff of Moebius that i presume was granted to him by Elder God. This is apparently why Moebius hates Kain so munch because he is probably the first vampire guardian in a long time.
The writers need to explore if the Vampires shotted themselves in the foot by abducting children without asking; or it was the intervention of the Elder God that fucked everything up (again). I find kinda hard to blame the vampires, especially because the vampirization prosses need the Hearth of Darkness to work and since Janos Audron is like a vampire jesus, thinking that he may have fucked up or even have treated the humans like shit, sounds kind of imposible. Unless of course, the Janos we see in Soul Reaver 2 and beyond is a character develepement of a previous Janos who was a dickhead and learned his lesson in a hard way. So yeah, maybe having a game exploring the most hated character in the series + having a explanation of how the omnicience works + how Janos became the saint that he is + if the elder god had to work hard to manipulate Moebius; seems like a good idea to me

"if the elder god had to work hard to manipulate Moebius" aaah man, now i have to critice what i just said.
Remember, Nubraptor's Curse blinded Moebius from the true form of the Elder God, but that was like 500+ years in the future where Blood Omen 1 took place and if we assume that the Elder God gave the staff to Moebius then he most likelly saw him. Unless of course, his omnicient also managed to fuck him over, meaning that if he got the curse on Blood Omen 1 then he most likely had him in every moment of his existence regardless of what time period he is (see why a explanation may be nice?)

While we are on the Janos Audron subject, i think that another sequel possibility besides the "get the the center of the earth to find the core of the Elder God and kill him with the help of Raziel inside the blade, who then raids all the Raziels in existance, that have been imprisioned in the Soul Reaver, to the Elder God core and eat him from the inside out. The mere presense of all those Raziels in the same time period will make the BIGGEST PARADOX IN THE EXISTANCE OF ALL PARADOX IN FICTION EVER and possibly destroy the universe with the hope that everything resets back to normal without the Elder God presence" is a sequel where you simply revisit Nosgoth in specific points where is possible for Kain to jump to the Hylden dimension in search for Janos Audron and to find the Hylden general to purify his vision and let him see the true monster that has caused both Hylden and Vampires to destroy each other. Maybe we can get a dimencion hole big enough to trap the Elder God and trap him for all eternity.

DioWallachia:

--- to poiumty ----

snip

In one of the last scenes of Defiance, when Kain gets blasted through the portal to the other dimension, the demons there (looking just like the ones in SR2) seem to be familiar with him and tell him that his form "will go first". This only makes the most sense if the demons are the hylden, and their form was also changed into the monstruosities before him.
They do appear in Nosgoth's past for some reason, we can chart this up to something yet unexplained or assume that the hylden had some measure of time-travelling powers. Like I said, plot's not airtight.
As for why the hylden aren't mentioned in SR1, it's because the writers didn't think that far ahead, obviously.
I'll admit I forgot most of the doomsday fuckery in BO2. That game didn't seem to follow the same plot guidelines as the others, but having the Hylden try and kill everything after the world was doomed by Kain's decision anyway makes them less of a competent, respectable enemy and more... comedic.
They can't invade without Janos because they can't all get out at the same time, in fact it's implied that the portal isn't too strong and only a trickle can flow through. As for TEG, he *was* the vampires' god so whatever the hylden say might not hold much sway.

But yeah, BO2 kinda breaks the story so much that I don't think it can even be all explained anymore. Best to just consider BO2 as non-canon.

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