Finer Points: Part One

Finer Points: Part One

Let's dive into the Stack.

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Encaen:
Finer Points: Part One

Let's dive into the Stack.

Read Full Article

While testing my modern UR Past in flames/Pyromancer ascension storm deck for the upcoming season.

I combo off on turn 3 for lethal using Grapeshot as my finisher when my opponent uses a Mindbreak trap to counter. I very specifically when he wants to use the trap as there are two possible placements for it due to the storm ability of grapeshot. He chooses to use it after the storm trigger resolves and puts my 25 copies on the stack and I point them at his head (If he'd chosen before then the stack would have looked like this Grapeshot>stormtrigger(replaced by copies and unaffected by mindbreak)>Mindbreak and the storm spells would have resolved before the mindbreak trap killing him). In response I Remand my original grapeshot putting it back into my hand before his mindbreak exiled it and then played it again for the win.

There were also various combat tricks from before the M10 rules change with combat damage using the stack. That change killed my Morphlings! :(

Huh, I've been playing the game off and on for years and have never heard of most of this (though I did know about the whole "last spell played goes first" thing). Either these are newer rules or I just never dove into the nitty gritty details enough.

Crimson_Dragoon:
Huh, I've been playing the game off and on for years and have never heard of most of this (though I did know about the whole "last spell played goes first" thing). Either these are newer rules or I just never dove into the nitty gritty details enough.

Stack related rules aren't something that comes up very often unless you're doing something silly like playing with storm decks, getting into counterspell wars, multiplayer or T1 matches so not knowing the nitty gritty rules won't affect play all that much.

A little thing I would like to add that may be nice for players hearing for the first time about the stack.

Abilities that have "At the beginning of the/your upkeep" go off at he same time. The active player decides in what order they enter they stack. Even abilities of which the source is not his (allies or enemies) EDIT: fanklok was nice enough to point out the FAAAAAALSEness of this statement.

The same applies for "At the beginning of the end step".

Also, mana and land don't enter the stack.

TheGuy(wantstobe):

Crimson_Dragoon:
Huh, I've been playing the game off and on for years and have never heard of most of this (though I did know about the whole "last spell played goes first" thing). Either these are newer rules or I just never dove into the nitty gritty details enough.

Stack related rules aren't something that comes up very often unless you're doing something silly like playing with storm decks, getting into counterspell wars, multiplayer or T1 matches so not knowing the nitty gritty rules won't affect play all that much.

don't forget the ever silly Oblivion Ring stack abuse trick where you destroy the O-ring before the exile trigger resolves in order to exile the permanent forever.

It took me a while to really understand how that worked, since it's one of the more complicated stack abuses you can do in the game.

ZeZZZZevy:
don't forget the ever silly Oblivion Ring stack abuse trick where you destroy the O-ring before the exile trigger resolves in order to exile the permanent forever.

It took me a while to really understand how that worked, since it's one of the more complicated stack abuses you can do in the game.

That actually just came up around the office last week featuring Fiend Hunter instead of Oblivion Ring. Same principle, only Fiend Hunter seems like he'd be a little easier to get rid of.

Along the same lines, shenanigans are plentiful with Sundial of the Infinite. Just mix with Mimic Vat and be sure to wait until the Exile ability is on the stack to use Sundial! ("If the token isn't exiled when the delayed triggered ability resolves (due to Stifle, perhaps), it remains on the battlefield indefinitely. It continues to have haste.")

Pyrignis:
A little thing I would like to add that may be nice for players hearing for the first time about the stack.

Abilities that have "At the beginning of the/your upkeep" go off at he same time. The active player decides in what order they enter they stack. Even abilities of which the source is not his (allies or enemies).

The same applies for "At the beginning of the end step".

Also, mana and land don't enter the stack.

And combat damage. Though that's more for people who've played before M10 and just recently came back.

This is kinda overwhelming for the new player like me, but I do understand priority from Yu-Gi-Oh! I got an Intro Pack and 1 booster for Christmas, so I have a deck, but I need to get another to try learning the game with my brother. I don't plan on getting too serious, but it's nice to have another TCG to play.

Just remembered my favourite stack/trigger/SBE abuse that is currently standard legal.

2x Heartless summoning
1x Corpse Cur
1x Selhoff occultist

The two summonings make the cur cost 0. When he hits play state based effects kill him off as he's got 0 toughness and his ability triggers from him entering the battlefield. As he's in the graveyard when you choose the target for his ability you can put him back into your hand. This let's you go infinite with the occultist triggering each time eventually milling out your opponent provided he can't interact with you.

It would be nice to get more people to understand the difference between a permanent and spells on the stack and how those two things are different in regards to keyword abilities that affect permanents. Shroud, hexproof, and protection from blue are not valid foils against counterspells.

What gets confusing is when people start playing cards between stack resolutions.

Encaen:

ZeZZZZevy:
don't forget the ever silly Oblivion Ring stack abuse trick where you destroy the O-ring before the exile trigger resolves in order to exile the permanent forever.

It took me a while to really understand how that worked, since it's one of the more complicated stack abuses you can do in the game.

That actually just came up around the office last week featuring Fiend Hunter instead of Oblivion Ring. Same principle, only Fiend Hunter seems like he'd be a little easier to get rid of.

Along the same lines, shenanigans are plentiful with Sundial of the Infinite. Just mix with Mimic Vat and be sure to wait until the Exile ability is on the stack to use Sundial! ("If the token isn't exiled when the delayed triggered ability resolves (due to Stifle, perhaps), it remains on the battlefield indefinitely. It continues to have haste.")

My personal favorite for breaking the stack is Time Stop, but to each their own.

Drunkbot:
It would be nice to get more people to understand the difference between a permanent and spells on the stack and how those two things are different in regards to keyword abilities that affect permanents. Shroud, hexproof, and protection from blue are not valid foils against counterspells.

It's actually relatively simple, if you decide to make boxes for everything(MTGO style). Any spell that is in the process of being cast goes onto the stack(normally on the bottom of the stack, but sometimes not). The way I generally play the stack is with either spells(instances, sorceries and permanents as they're being cast), or with note card copies of their abilities(Whever X happens do Y). Make an actual stack of spells and abilities.

The stack isn't that bad for the most part when I play, the problem is my group has trouble understanding that creatures are spells that create creatures, so he spent 10 minutes arguing his hexproof beastie couldn't be countered. I eventually convinced him by showing him the giant eldrazi that has special wording 'can't be countered'.

Pyrignis:
A little thing I would like to add that may be nice for players hearing for the first time about the stack.

Abilities that have "At the beginning of the/your upkeep" go off at he same time. The active player decides in what order they enter they stack. Even abilities of which the source is not his (allies or enemies).

The same applies for "At the beginning of the end step".

Also, mana and land don't enter the stack.

I've taken the liberty of bolding the part that is FAAAAAAALSE. If multiple abilities would trigger at the same time they go on the stack in APNAP order that is the Active Players abilities go on the stack first and they may order them however they like then the Nonactive Players abilities go on the stack in turn order and they order them as they like.

An example:

I only control a Sheoldred, Whispering One and you only control a Nath of the Gilt-Leaf at the beginning of your upkeep Sheoldred and Nath's abilities will trigger and go on the stack in APNAP order so the stack would look like

Sheoldred's third ability
Nath's first ability

If we both pass You sacrifice your Nath, then if we both pass again I discard a card.

You savvy?

Could you kindly mention the article/discussion is related to MTG or some other similar card game at the start? I'd rather not have to slog through 2-3 paragraphs to finally discover I have no interest in the subject.
PS: Preferably in giant red flaming letters.

One of my favorite stack quagmires comes from the Nightmares from the Torment set. Because of the sacrifice rules and the way the stack worked, you could effectively use them to remove lands and creatures, even the life of other players from the game in a constant rez circle. From the rules:

One combo in Waking Nightmares is very tricky. With some help from the Odyssey set's Malevolent Awakening, your Nightmares can take things away for good.

How? When you play a Nightmare, such as Faceless Butcher, it comes into play ability goes on the stack. In response, you sacrifice the Butcher to play Malevolent Awakening's ability. Then the Butcher's leaves-play ability resolves first, but the Butcher hasn't removed a creature from the game yet. The leaves-play effect does nothing. So the comes-into-play effect removes a creature from the game that can never be brought back!

Use Malevolent Awakening to bring back a previously sacrificed nightmare and boom, keep the chain going.

5ilver:
Could you kindly mention the article/discussion is related to MTG or some other similar card game at the start? I'd rather not have to slog through 2-3 paragraphs to finally discover I have no interest in the subject.
PS: Preferably in giant red flaming letters.

Hexproof is a recurring series about nothing but MTG. It kind of got mentioned the first time. Every other time, just look for the magic card printed right at the beginning.

Jhereg42:
One of my favorite stack quagmires comes from the Nightmares from the Torment set. Because of the sacrifice rules and the way the stack worked, you could effectively use them to remove lands and creatures, even the life of other players from the game in a constant rez circle. From the rules:

One combo in Waking Nightmares is very tricky. With some help from the Odyssey set's Malevolent Awakening, your Nightmares can take things away for good.

How? When you play a Nightmare, such as Faceless Butcher, it comes into play ability goes on the stack. In response, you sacrifice the Butcher to play Malevolent Awakening's ability. Then the Butcher's leaves-play ability resolves first, but the Butcher hasn't removed a creature from the game yet. The leaves-play effect does nothing. So the comes-into-play effect removes a creature from the game that can never be brought back!

Use Malevolent Awakening to bring back a previously sacrificed nightmare and boom, keep the chain going.

That would probably work with Oblivion Ring and Fiend Hunter in standard, you just have to change up how to get rid of the ring and hunter.

EDIT:I double checked the FAQ, and the ruling is still current. The easiest way is with a sacrifice or destroy effect that's an instant.

I tend not to play up to date tourney rules since my games are mostly us old people who played when it first came out in high school and mostly have older sets in storage. We dug them out recently (along with some other buys that occurred during a brief relapse into buying cards when Torment came out) and have been getting back into building decks to annoy each other. Heck, I still have my Blue/White Stasis deck from way back when and that is in no way shape or form tourney legal.

fanklok:

Pyrignis:
A little thing I would like to add that may be nice for players hearing for the first time about the stack.

Abilities that have "At the beginning of the/your upkeep" go off at he same time. The active player decides in what order they enter they stack. Even abilities of which the source is not his (allies or enemies).

The same applies for "At the beginning of the end step".

Also, mana and land don't enter the stack.

I've taken the liberty of bolding the part that is FAAAAAAALSE. If multiple abilities would trigger at the same time they go on the stack in APNAP order that is the Active Players abilities go on the stack first and they may order them however they like then the Nonactive Players abilities go on the stack in turn order and they order them as they like.

An example:

I only control a Sheoldred, Whispering One and you only control a Nath of the Gilt-Leaf at the beginning of your upkeep Sheoldred and Nath's abilities will trigger and go on the stack in APNAP order so the stack would look like

Sheoldred's third ability
Nath's first ability

If we both pass You sacrifice your Nath, then if we both pass again I discard a card.

You savvy?

I humbly bow to your greater knowledge of the rules. I did not, and was not, savvy.

Dang brain, why must you betray me.

A little late to this one since I was out last week, but I've had some weird dealings with the stack. The biggest one was sacrifices as costs. It took a tonne of convincing my dad that he couldn't Swords to Plowshares my Ornithopter that I just sacrificed to Goblin Bombardment. The reason he can't do this is because costs are paid before players get priority. In other words, the Rrnithopter had already left play by the time he could even cast StP.

A similar thing came up with Aether Flash, which does 2 damage to creatures when the enter the battlefield. What he believed was that since death is state-based, I wouldn't have time to sacrifice to Goblin Bombardment. Of course, I could because Aether Flash' ability uses the stack.

Weird situations with priority:

Madness when it was first introduced:
its P1s turn.
P2 plays an instant cast causing P1 to discard a card.
P1 discards Arrogant Wurm, plays a land and THEN pays the madness cost, putting the wurm into play.
P1 hadnt passed priority since the wurm was discarded, thus he still had the option of playing it.
fun times.

With the stack, all i can think of is Countering/redirecting split seconds with morph creatures.(Morphing doesnt use the stack)

Escapist hits you with the doublepost.

 

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