A Bit of the Old Up, Up, Down, Down

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A Bit of the Old Up, Up, Down, Down

Most games can't handle bumping uglies.

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Martin McLauchlan:
A Bit of the Old Up, Up, Down, Down

Most games can't handle bumping uglies.

Read Full Article

This is an apt assessment of the problem with sex/sexuality in games -- really enjoyed reading it!

On one hand, there are some problems with what is shown on the screen. Mostly, it's the "male gaze" problems -- the sex scenes are designed to appeal mostly to males (or women who prefer to watch women). I don't think the real problem is with how explicit (or not) the sexual content is, but rather with the female-skin-bias, and the social messages that carries with it.*

But on the other hand, this isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem isn't what, but why. And most of the time, the "Why" doesn't really need the "What." You can deal with the issue of sexuality without showing the act. And it can still have real "weight" and "significance." When it is included, it's usually about cheap titillation, controversy, or basically moving a few more boxes because the penis often gets a vote when guys are choosing games.

To me, the big question -- and I go back and forth on this -- is whether the issue is a result of the immaturity of the developers/animators/makers of the game, or the perceived immaturity of their audience? Is it personal wish fulfillment, or is this what they really think gamers want? As with everything, the answer is probably somewhere in between the two...

____

* One major problem I see in recent games is that, in trying to please everyone, they're providing more and more options for romantic partners. This seems like a plus, from a Player Choice standpoint... but there are two issues with it:

1. It makes the relationships largely meaningless -- if there is any context provided, it's generic and portable. You can apply it to any of your choices, making mate selection a simple, superficial act of skin-swapping... which oddly sounds like a euphemism for sex.

2. When you allow the player to choose from nearly anyone, it also sets up the rather awful idea that anyone can be romanced as long as the romancer is charismatic enough and "does everything right." Too many guys (and gals, let's not be biased) apply that kind of logic in real life -- they persist in pestering a potential partner, despite clear refusal, believing they can still "win" if they use the right "combo" of words and deeds. I don't think games are causing this by any stretch, but why feed the monster?

I don't think sex or sexuality should be in games period. It is a private affair. It shouldn't matter to anyone in games or real life, who is doing who. Relationship are a public affair. There can be real complex dynamic relationships in stories without involving sexuality. If you can't create those type of relationships without bringing in sexuality, you shouldn't be making games.

Baldr:
I don't think sex or sexuality should be in games period. It is a private affair. It shouldn't matter to anyone in games or real life, who is doing who. Relationship are a public affair. There can be real complex dynamic relationships in stories without involving sexuality. If you can't create those type of relationships without bringing in sexuality, you shouldn't be making games.

This is an interesting counterpoint (and one I kinda agree with). There are a lot of storytelling options that don't require sex as a central point, and you can tell great stories without ever having to "go there" (this is, incidentally, my central objection to modern Doctor Who as well). I thought it intriguing that the article centred on Catherine, which for all its serious exploration was a plot concept that I found very troubling personally - not because of sex, but because of the cheating. Maybe it's because I'm a man with no fear of commitment (and very happily married), but plotlines that involve cheating on someone are very uncomfortable for me; they completely take me out of any positive feelings I might have for the character who does it, often to the point of "I don't think I want to watch/play this". I'm not sure what kind of commentary this might make Catherine if the most in-depth exploration of sexual relationships in a videogame is about cheating on your girlfriend. I know it's reality, and in the real world it happens all the time, and putting uncomfortable realities in front of you is part of what stimulates serious discussion, but I already see enough of it in the real world, and I'd like to look at videogames (especially story-centric ones) as a place where I can get away from some of reality's inconvenient truths for a while. This is just a personal opinion, though, and I'm probably in a minority.

The last time the "relationships in games" discussion got brought up here, someone (I'm afraid I can't remember who mentioned it, or else I'd gladly give credit), mentioned Final Fantasy IV. Specifically, that it seems to be a rarity among games - the male and female leads are already in a serious relationship as the game begins, they stay that way, they don't break up, and there's no real sexual tension between them. There is an uncomfortable third wheel, but his feelings are unrequited and neither of the significant others are ever tempted away. (They do fight once, but it's more about inappropriate/misguided notions of chivalry and overprotectiveness, and it's over thankfully quickly.) Perhaps that is in itself unrealistic, but it at least offers a different perspective on videogames and relationships.

I feel kind of weird saying this, because where do I get off with this kind of impertinence, but I think you played Mass Effect wrong. Sure, the relationships don't directly affect whether or not you win the game, but that doesn't mean they aren't well written or complex.

To explain what I mean, I'll tell you what happened in my playthrough (spoilers, but I suspect anyone who hasn't played the Mass Effects doesn't care by this time).

In Mass Effect, I dated Liara. I will admit that this was a fairly stilted romance, but she was nice and smart, and I liked her. We had a simple, enjoyable relationship.

Then, in Mass Effect 2, I died and all that, and Liara left. I held out hope for getting her back, but when I finally met her, she'd, essentially, gone to the dark side. I spent most of the game following this without a romantic interest as I mourned the "death" of the Liara I'd known, and a fair portion of it trying to find a way to get the old Liara back (note: I do not have the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC).

But then I was talking to Tali, and she was nice and smart (I seem to have a type). And I eventually decided, "Well, I'm not getting Liara back, am I?" So I thought about it, and I liked Tali, and she obviously liked me, so I started to date Tali. Which, because of her physiology, creates its own unique problems, in addition to her concerns about Liara which I had to lay to rest and concerns from the crew that I was taking advantage of Tali's hero-worship of me (which, admittedly, it's kind of awkward to date someone who hero-worships you, so I encouraged her to stop that).

During this time, I was also counseling Jack. I was very careful not to be romantically interested, but a friend. But, just as I was finally getting her to open up and start to trust me, she tried to jump my bones, and I had to tell her we were just friends, and she wouldn't believe me until I said I was interested in someone else. She yelled at me and wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the game. I suspect, during the final battle, that some of her suggestions were crafted to get Tali killed.

Miranda, like Ashley before her, was mean, and kind of evil in a scary way, and I didn't like her. And she willingly worked for Cerberus, which I'd basically decided was the most evil organization I'd ever been forced to work with (I spent much of Mass Effect stomping out their bases with extreme prejudice). I never even took her on missions, when I could help it, because I just didn't like her as a person, whatever her skills were (I never bothered to find out). But I got the feeling any relationship with her would just be sex, and she'd still be mean afterward.

I've since learned from the internet that in Lair of the Shadow Broker, you discover that Liara's evilness is just a front, and in Mass Effect 3 there will be consequences for being "unfaithful" to her (we were broken up, as far as I'm concerned, okay?), which will undoubtedly put a strain on my relationship with Tali (assuming I decide to stay with Tali, which I probably will; if I do break up with Tali, it won't be because Liara asks me to, it will be because things aren't working with Tali).

Now, I could have decided to turn my brain off, pick the character of the opposite sex I found the most physically appealing, and pressed the dialog options to facilitate a relationship so I could be "rewarded" with sex, but that's a poor way to play an RPG. That's like playing P&P D&D without a personality to your character other than "kill the monsters in the dungeon", or, for that matter, playing Catherine while ignoring all the context for the levels.

I think sex and relationships could be written pretty well if people applied themselves hard enough (I sense a sex joke there)

In all seriousness though, our genre is pushed buy the consumers who by Madden Football and CoD12 etc. The "Jock" type. I don't really see sexual maturity in the foreseeable future.

Sandytimeman:
In all seriousness though, our genre is pushed buy the consumers who by Madden Football and CoD12 etc. The "Jock" type. I don't really see sexual maturity in the foreseeable future.

Skyrim disproves that.

Azuaron:

Sandytimeman:
In all seriousness though, our genre is pushed buy the consumers who by Madden Football and CoD12 etc. The "Jock" type. I don't really see sexual maturity in the foreseeable future.

Skyrim disproves that.

By getting married to anyone you did a quest for, because that's sexual maturity.

"When I say I liked it because of the sex, I don't mean that I liked the sexy anime ladies with their improbable hair and their physiques crafted by manga pervert artists."

Well, thanks for those crass generalisations of managa and anime. Saved me the time of reading the rest of the article as it is obvious the rest, will be about as intelligent.

I get that people may find attraction to cartoon charactors as wierd, the same way I find atraction to members of your own gender, but there's no need to be insulting about it. Especially when the two female protaganists of the game don't even fit the 10 year old gymnast body image generalisation you made.

Great article, and I don't often say that about Escapist features. I really don't.

Sandytimeman:

In all seriousness though, our genre is pushed buy the consumers who by Madden Football and CoD12 etc. The "Jock" type. I don't really see sexual maturity in the foreseeable future.

Sadly, it's not the frat boy stereotype to blame here. What the writer describes are pretty much all by-products of nerd/geek culture, which is frequently more misogynistic, insular and afraid of sex than the mainstream it usually claims to be better than.

Azuaron:
I feel kind of weird saying this, because where do I get off with this kind of impertinence, but I think you played Mass Effect wrong.

...

Now, I could have decided to turn my brain off, pick the character of the opposite sex I found the most physically appealing, and pressed the dialog options to facilitate a relationship so I could be "rewarded" with sex, but that's a poor way to play an RPG. That's like playing P&P D&D without a personality to your character other than "kill the monsters in the dungeon", or, for that matter, playing Catherine while ignoring all the context for the levels.

If there is a right way to play RPGs, this is it. Shepard and other RPG protagonists might be blank slates to a degree, but they're almost always charactes whose development you can control, not actual stand-ins for you. My Grey Warden didn't romance Morrigan because I thought she was the hottest option, he did it because I pictured a Circle mage locked up and told to control his abilities and serve the mundanes all his life suddenly being sent out into the world and meeting a wild, beautiful Apostate mage...it made sense.

(BioWare RPGs should not have sex scenes, though, for no reason more nuanced than because they look fucking terrible. People talk about them like they're the "end reward" of the romances when they're the worst and least important part.)

I can't agree that it's "Time to graduate" or anything like that, but I can agree that they're handled a bit childishly at the moment. When I played MGS3, and I got to oogle at the big blouse bunnies that Eva had, I was all the more happy for a distraction to the ridiculous/overwritten plot they were going into. I saw it as a joke, and that's what I'll take it as.

As for the Duke Nukem Forever part, I shot that girl in the face with absolutely zero qualms. You know why? Because I'm Duke Nukem, and they were some of the most annoying characters I've ever seen in a video game. Shortly after that, I stopped playing the game because it was just plain boring anyways.

Mass Effect(or Bioware's handling of Romantic relationships) was decent. They all have been, at least in my eyes. My Commander Shepherd needs some relief flying around in the deep darkness of space. Plus he's a gray area character, he does what he feels is right at the moment. I enjoyed the game immensely and sought the relationships on my own terms.

I played Catherine up until the baby puzzle (I played that puzzle for about 2 days and just couldn't wrap my head around it for some reason, right at the end, whatever, doesn't matter) and it did handle relationships well in certain ways, in other ways, IT WAS RETARDED. I tried to push Catherine away as much as possible and she always seemed to end up in my bed or something. And when he answered the phone call/text or whatever it was when he was out with Katherine? Please. The game made me laugh, but other than that, I wouldn't be able to ever recommend it to anyone. Maybe if Vincent took his head out of his ass every once in a while, I'd be able to relate more, but I couldn't.

ph0b0s123:
"When I say I liked it because of the sex, I don't mean that I liked the sexy anime ladies with their improbable hair and their physiques crafted by manga pervert artists."

Well, thanks for those crass generalisations of managa and anime. Saved me the time of reading the rest of the article as it is obvious the rest, will be about as intelligent.

I get that people may find attraction to cartoon charactors as wierd, the same way I find atraction to members of your own gender, but there's no need to be insulting about it. Especially when the two female protaganists of the game don't even fit the 10 year old gymnast body image generalisation you made.

I think you should probably have a lie down, cool your jets, and re-read the article when you've learned HOW TO TAKE IT LIKE A MAN.

This article was excellent. Outlined everything that is wrong with the dialogue-challenged sex in most games, the frankly dull humour in Duke Nukem, and what Catherine did right. But, since you're too preoccupied getting all arsey that intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls, then I think you're a little too defensive for your own good.

Richardplex:

Azuaron:

Sandytimeman:
In all seriousness though, our genre is pushed buy the consumers who by Madden Football and CoD12 etc. The "Jock" type. I don't really see sexual maturity in the foreseeable future.

Skyrim disproves that.

By getting married to anyone you did a quest for, because that's sexual maturity.

Well... no. It's not maturity. However, there is some built in game world context that does at least attempt to couch that game mechanic by stating that Skyrim is a brutal place (and if you've been there, it is, obviously, you can't ride an hour outside of town without being assaulted by something that wants to kill you be it animal or man/mer) and so when people find someone who's a good person and they happen to be wearing the "I'm open to marriage" symbol you might get hitched to them without courtship just for the sake of having a relationship that might produce offspring before one of you is snubbed out of existence. It's thin, but at least they put it in there.

Seventh Actuality:
Great article, and I don't often say that about Escapist features. I really don't.

Sandytimeman:

In all seriousness though, our genre is pushed buy the consumers who by Madden Football and CoD12 etc. The "Jock" type. I don't really see sexual maturity in the foreseeable future.

Sadly, it's not the frat boy stereotype to blame here. What the writer describes are pretty much all by-products of nerd/geek culture, which is frequently more misogynistic, insular and afraid of sex than the mainstream it usually claims to be better than.

Azuaron:
I feel kind of weird saying this, because where do I get off with this kind of impertinence, but I think you played Mass Effect wrong.

...

Now, I could have decided to turn my brain off, pick the character of the opposite sex I found the most physically appealing, and pressed the dialog options to facilitate a relationship so I could be "rewarded" with sex, but that's a poor way to play an RPG. That's like playing P&P D&D without a personality to your character other than "kill the monsters in the dungeon", or, for that matter, playing Catherine while ignoring all the context for the levels.

If there is a right way to play RPGs, this is it. Shepard and other RPG protagonists might be blank slates to a degree, but they're almost always charactes whose development you can control, not actual stand-ins for you. My Grey Warden didn't romance Morrigan because I thought she was the hottest option, he did it because I pictured a Circle mage locked up and told to control his abilities and serve the mundanes all his life suddenly being sent out into the world and meeting a wild, beautiful Apostate mage...it made sense.

(BioWare RPGs should not have sex scenes, though, for no reason more nuanced than because they look fucking terrible. People talk about them like they're the "end reward" of the romances when they're the worst and least important part.)

^ Have to agree. I do like the sweet romantic kisses - and the fade to black for DA2 was okay in some instances - but where Bioware drops the ball is after you've got the relationship going they basically go back to being a regular companion that you all too occasionally get additional dialog with - Alistair comes to mind in DAO - WHY oh WHY could I not talk to him about our relationship and where it was going before he dumped me in front of all of our friends? /weep hysterically.

Seventh Actuality:

Azuaron:
I feel kind of weird saying this, because where do I get off with this kind of impertinence, but I think you played Mass Effect wrong.

...

Now, I could have decided to turn my brain off, pick the character of the opposite sex I found the most physically appealing, and pressed the dialog options to facilitate a relationship so I could be "rewarded" with sex, but that's a poor way to play an RPG. That's like playing P&P D&D without a personality to your character other than "kill the monsters in the dungeon", or, for that matter, playing Catherine while ignoring all the context for the levels.

If there is a right way to play RPGs, this is it. Shepard and other RPG protagonists might be blank slates to a degree, but they're almost always charactes whose development you can control, not actual stand-ins for you. My Grey Warden didn't romance Morrigan because I thought she was the hottest option, he did it because I pictured a Circle mage locked up and told to control his abilities and serve the mundanes all his life suddenly being sent out into the world and meeting a wild, beautiful Apostate mage...it made sense.

(BioWare RPGs should not have sex scenes, though, for no reason more nuanced than because they look fucking terrible. People talk about them like they're the "end reward" of the romances when they're the worst and least important part.)

Completely agree with these two comments (seriously Azuaron, fantastic anecdotal storytelling there). My absolute favourite part of my character's relationship with Leliana was her singing; followed closely by her talking about shoes. I also agree that someone needs to lock the sex cutscene animator in the basement until after the game ships - totally unnecessary.

Thyunda:

ph0b0s123:
"When I say I liked it because of the sex, I don't mean that I liked the sexy anime ladies with their improbable hair and their physiques crafted by manga pervert artists."

Well, thanks for those crass generalisations of managa and anime. Saved me the time of reading the rest of the article as it is obvious the rest, will be about as intelligent.

I get that people may find attraction to cartoon charactors as wierd, the same way I find atraction to members of your own gender, but there's no need to be insulting about it. Especially when the two female protaganists of the game don't even fit the 10 year old gymnast body image generalisation you made.

I think you should probably have a lie down, cool your jets, and re-read the article when you've learned HOW TO TAKE IT LIKE A MAN.

This article was excellent. Outlined everything that is wrong with the dialogue-challenged sex in most games, the frankly dull humour in Duke Nukem, and what Catherine did right. But, since you're too preoccupied getting all arsey that intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls, then I think you're a little too defensive for your own good.

Not a problem with "intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls", you you just don't need to point your dislike out with insults. It ruins the point of holding up Catherine as a game that deals with sex well, when you give the opinion that the games art direction is created by 'manga pervert artists'.

I get a little sick of the game community taking pops at another medium that is also about virtual worlds using inflammatory language like the above, while at the same time getting up in arms when the rest of society decries their medium with inflammatory terms like 'murder simulators'. Some much for consistency....

I think someone is trying to be a like Yahtzee and be humorously offensive about things like manga. It would have worked if the same type of language was used to describe the failings of Duke or MSG, that would have been quite funny (i.e the why Yahtzee successes with this type of humor, the scatter gun approach). Unfortunately the most inflammatory language was reversed for just one topic medium. Which shows more about the writers bias than mine.

I spent the whole Mass Effect 2 "sex" scene wondering why I was watching two fully clothed mannequins awkwardly bump into each other. Then it finished & I felt a bit dirty.

ph0b0s123:

Thyunda:

ph0b0s123:
"When I say I liked it because of the sex, I don't mean that I liked the sexy anime ladies with their improbable hair and their physiques crafted by manga pervert artists."

Well, thanks for those crass generalisations of managa and anime. Saved me the time of reading the rest of the article as it is obvious the rest, will be about as intelligent.

I get that people may find attraction to cartoon charactors as wierd, the same way I find atraction to members of your own gender, but there's no need to be insulting about it. Especially when the two female protaganists of the game don't even fit the 10 year old gymnast body image generalisation you made.

I think you should probably have a lie down, cool your jets, and re-read the article when you've learned HOW TO TAKE IT LIKE A MAN.

This article was excellent. Outlined everything that is wrong with the dialogue-challenged sex in most games, the frankly dull humour in Duke Nukem, and what Catherine did right. But, since you're too preoccupied getting all arsey that intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls, then I think you're a little too defensive for your own good.

Not a problem with "intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls", you you just don't need to point your dislike out with insults. It ruins the point of holding up Catherine as a game that deals with sex well, when you give the opinion that the games art direction is created by 'manga pervert artists'.

I get a little sick of the game community taking pops at another medium that is also about virtual worlds using inflammatory language like the above, while at the same time getting up in arms when the rest of society decries their medium with inflammatory terms like 'murder simulators'. Some much for consistency....

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

Thyunda:

ph0b0s123:

Thyunda:

I think you should probably have a lie down, cool your jets, and re-read the article when you've learned HOW TO TAKE IT LIKE A MAN.

This article was excellent. Outlined everything that is wrong with the dialogue-challenged sex in most games, the frankly dull humour in Duke Nukem, and what Catherine did right. But, since you're too preoccupied getting all arsey that intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls, then I think you're a little too defensive for your own good.

Not a problem with "intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls", you you just don't need to point your dislike out with insults. It ruins the point of holding up Catherine as a game that deals with sex well, when you give the opinion that the games art direction is created by 'manga pervert artists'.

I get a little sick of the game community taking pops at another medium that is also about virtual worlds using inflammatory language like the above, while at the same time getting up in arms when the rest of society decries their medium with inflammatory terms like 'murder simulators'. Some much for consistency....

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

So if they were more realistic then the artists would be less 'perverted'. And only manga as a medium is guilty of depicting needlessly sexualized women. I know quite a few western movies and TV shows that are trying to sneak out of the room at the moment. Megan Fox and others have made a career off it.

I am quite happy to state that there are something that are not right about some forms of manga. That does not mean the whole thing should be labeled with such inflammatory language, especially when from what I have seen the game being discussed is not even guilty of any of manga's faults. The characters are not loli and they are not Soul Caliber types either.

I don't even know why the article needed to have a section about the writers disgust with manga artists in the first place, since it was not applicable the the subject at hand. Someone just felt they had to get a dig in.

Thyunda:

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

All lawyers are greedy fucks, and all Christians are bible thumping jerks that push their beliefs on you, too, right? It's certainly not a loud minority shaping the perceptions of everyone listening, right?

If you had any interest in the medium, or did research on it, you'd find that it's just as wide and varied as any other. Not every manga female has breasts twice the size of her head. In fact, a vast majority of them do not. There are entire genres of manga that do not have characters drawn in such a way.

Blanket statements are the worst things to defend.

As a manga pervert artist im offended!

But i'll let you off as Garrus is awesome.

Draconalis:

Thyunda:

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

All lawyers are greedy fucks, and all Christians are bible thumping jerks that push their beliefs on you, too, right? It's certainly not a loud minority shaping the perceptions of everyone listening, right?

If you had any interest in the medium, or did research on it, you'd find that it's just as wide and varied as any other. Not every manga female has breasts twice the size of her head. In fact, a vast majority of them do not. There are entire genres of manga that do not have characters drawn in such a way.

Blanket statements are the worst things to defend.

PREACH OPTIMUS, PREACH!!!

Asking gaming to grow up overall is fine but media in general does these things. Mind you i'm not defending them and i'm not saying we should stop trying. I want a story where I can gawk at a girl half the time and generally listen to here the rest, nothing wrong with abit of balance.

Still havn't played DNF but Bayonetta seems to have that area covered at a far higher calibre anyways.

ph0b0s123:

Thyunda:

ph0b0s123:

Not a problem with "intelligent people ALSO may not like cartoon girls", you you just don't need to point your dislike out with insults. It ruins the point of holding up Catherine as a game that deals with sex well, when you give the opinion that the games art direction is created by 'manga pervert artists'.

I get a little sick of the game community taking pops at another medium that is also about virtual worlds using inflammatory language like the above, while at the same time getting up in arms when the rest of society decries their medium with inflammatory terms like 'murder simulators'. Some much for consistency....

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

So if they were more realistic then the artists would be less 'perverted'. And only manga as a medium is guilty of depicting needlessly sexualized women. I know quite a few western movies and TV shows that are trying to sneak out of the room at the moment. Megan Fox and others have made a career off it.

I am quite happy to state that there are something that are not right about some forms of manga. That does not mean the whole thing should be labeled with such inflammatory language, especially when from what I have seen the game being discussed is not even guilty of any of manga's faults.

Except Megan Fox is in fact an actual woman, and not a drawing.

Draconalis:

Thyunda:

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

All lawyers are greedy fucks, and all Christians are bible thumping jerks that push their beliefs on you, too, right? It's certainly not a loud minority shaping the perceptions of everyone listening, right?

If you had any interest in the medium, or did research on it, you'd find that it's just as wide and varied as any other. Not every manga female has breasts twice the size of her head. In fact, a vast majority of them do not. There are entire genres of manga that do not have characters drawn in such a way.

Blanket statements are the worst things to defend.

Yes. But the manga that gets attention drawn to itself comes under the 'blanket statement'. If you have to actually go looking for the exception to the rule, then the statement applies.

Thyunda:

ph0b0s123:

Thyunda:

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

So if they were more realistic then the artists would be less 'perverted'. And only manga as a medium is guilty of depicting needlessly sexualized women. I know quite a few western movies and TV shows that are trying to sneak out of the room at the moment. Megan Fox and others have made a career off it.

I am quite happy to state that there are something that are not right about some forms of manga. That does not mean the whole thing should be labeled with such inflammatory language, especially when from what I have seen the game being discussed is not even guilty of any of manga's faults.

Except Megan Fox is in fact an actual woman, and not a drawing.

Draconalis:

Thyunda:

To be fair, it's hard to imagine manga women being drawn with any attempt at a realistic portrayal of an actual woman, and the characters regardless of age are often needlessly sexualised. So I would say it's a valid point.

All lawyers are greedy fucks, and all Christians are bible thumping jerks that push their beliefs on you, too, right? It's certainly not a loud minority shaping the perceptions of everyone listening, right?

If you had any interest in the medium, or did research on it, you'd find that it's just as wide and varied as any other. Not every manga female has breasts twice the size of her head. In fact, a vast majority of them do not. There are entire genres of manga that do not have characters drawn in such a way.

Blanket statements are the worst things to defend.

Yes. But the manga that gets attention drawn to itself comes under the 'blanket statement'. If you have to actually go looking for the exception to the rule, then the statement applies.

Megan is real, so what, she serves that same purpose as the women you were talking about in manga. Oh, so needlessly sexualized women is fine if it is real women rather than non real ones?

And the manga that gets the attention is actually the exception, I am afraid, rather than the rule. Any mainstream manga like Bleach, etc has a whole spectrum of females characters, body types, personalities, etc. Anyone suggesting the manga is only filled with 10 year old looking female characters is demonstrating they don't know what they are talking about.

Thyunda:

Yes. But the manga that gets attention drawn to itself comes under the 'blanket statement'. If you have to actually go looking for the exception to the rule, then the statement applies.

First off, it's not "The exception that proves the rule" because the exception is hardly an exception at all, it is the majority. second, I've already covered this statement with my greedy lawyers comment. Since you didn't seem to understand, allow me to break it down for you.

You don't hear about the good ones, why report on the good ones when it's easier and more amusing to report on the bad ones. many people prefer listening to bitching over praises and compliments.

ph0b0s123:

I don't even know why the article needed to have a section about the writers disgust with manga artists in the first place, since it was not applicable the the subject at hand. Someone just felt they had to get a dig in.

I do think that was a little below the belt *badum-tish*.

I think it was related to the subject as the style/aesthetics of the game itself are manga based and lets face it Yahtzees said a hell of a lot worse, even if it was just a quick joke. Still, felt abit of spite in the sentance, maybe im reading to much into it.

And it was a good article.

As far as the 'manga artist' thing goes I find the problem is rather than the manga artist being 'pervy' he's giving a representation of what his audience wants. I can understand giving titillation to an adolescent audience, but what they want is getting farther and farther from reality and it's really kind of sad. Perhaps even worse is that's the 'Shounen' manga, 'Seinen' manga which is supposed to be for a more mature audience it's always little girls. Ugh, I know there will still be some decent stuff out there but for the most part Korean Manhwa has surpassed Japanese manga in my opinion.

Anyways, considering the topic I really hate it when a game treats me like a sweaty palmed virgin. Over the latest Steam sale I picked up Two Worlds II for $5, as I'm always up for an open world RPG, and the start is just face palming bad.

PunkRex:

ph0b0s123:

I don't even know why the article needed to have a section about the writers disgust with manga artists in the first place, since it was not applicable the the subject at hand. Someone just felt they had to get a dig in.

I do think that was a little below the belt *badum-tish*.

I think it was related to the subject as the style/aesthetics of the game itself are manga based and lets face it Yahtzees said a hell of a lot worse, even if it was just a quick joke. Still, felt abit of spite in the sentance, maybe im reading to much into it.

And it was a good article.

As I said above, I LOL when Yahtzee does it as he does it to everything. If I was insulted by his comments about people who like manga, I only have to wait two minutes for him to be tearing a strip off people who own PC's, like FPS, etc. The difference is Yahtzee is offensive about everything. He does not discriminate. The article above would have worked if Duke developers had been described as perverts or similar as well. But no such language was just reserved for manga.

As for mass effect, there are some characters who have more than just "pass 3 skill checks" investment in them. Tali and Garrus are both options who you could care a quite a bit about and had a lot more depth and reason for potentially wanting to be with you than simply "bonus" content. But still overall very good read, might have to play it now.

Draconalis:

Thyunda:

Yes. But the manga that gets attention drawn to itself comes under the 'blanket statement'. If you have to actually go looking for the exception to the rule, then the statement applies.

First off, it's not "The exception that proves the rule" because the exception is hardly an exception at all, it is the majority. second, I've already covered this statement with my greedy lawyers comment. Since you didn't seem to understand, allow me to break it down for you.

You don't hear about the good ones, why report on the good ones when it's easier and more amusing to report on the bad ones. many people prefer listening to bitching over praises and compliments.

let me break this down for you.

The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable. Not because it encompasses 100% of all manga, because that'd be ludicrous, but if you take the people who like these cartoon women a little bit more than they should, and be constantly exposed to their ridiculous fantasies and insistence on displaying anime and manga girls in circumstances most unladylike, then maybe you'd have a little bit more sympathy for the article. Countless times I had to ask myself, what kind of person draws this stuff? These women, these characters, exist solely for that single purpose.

And as for greedy lawyers? Lawyers who choose their own cases are very common, and easily outside of the rule. So it doesn't apply.

I dunno. I think it's not like Catherine was any better than the other videogames. It's just that Catherine's MAIN plot revolved around the sex/romance aspect, so it HAD to appear more developed.

And I may add: how many -movies- have you seen that display convincing romance relationships? Very veeery few, and only if the romance happens to be the main focus of the story.

I don't think we can ask videogames to be more than what they are. You can't ask a depiction of romance to be any better in a videogame, unless the whole videogame's story involves romancing that person. And even then, it would be awkward.

ph0b0s123:

PunkRex:

ph0b0s123:

I don't even know why the article needed to have a section about the writers disgust with manga artists in the first place, since it was not applicable the the subject at hand. Someone just felt they had to get a dig in.

I do think that was a little below the belt *badum-tish*.

I think it was related to the subject as the style/aesthetics of the game itself are manga based and lets face it Yahtzees said a hell of a lot worse, even if it was just a quick joke. Still, felt abit of spite in the sentance, maybe im reading to much into it.

And it was a good article.

As I said above, I LOL when Yahtzee does it as he does it to everything. If I was insulted by his comments about people who like manga, I only have to wait two minutes for him to be tearing a strip off people who own PC's, like FPS, etc. The difference is Yahtzee is offensive about everything. He does not discriminate. The article above would have worked if Duke developers had been described as perverts or similar as well. But no such language was just reserved for manga.

I suppose. I don't like to get hung up on haters, especially ones making a good point about crappy game play mechanics and story structure. I don't think he's generally attacking manga artists, he's proberly just not a fan of certain manga aesthetics. I don't like to get overly sensitive about such little qwips. I'll be watching this guys posts abit more carefully though.

Great article. Very well thought out, and I agree with pretty much all of it.

I do get a little annoyed that developers, especially RPG developers, seem to treat romance more and more like a puzzle. As long as you pick the right words, any girl/guy will swoon and want you to ravage them like a scene a D.H Lawrence novel.

Fact is, attraction is a complicated thing. You can have two incredibly good looking people standing next to each other, and they may not find each other attractive at all, despite the fact that everyone else in the room is eyeing them up hungrily like a dog in a bone yard.

For an example of how I think romance in games can be effectively portrayed, compare any of Bioware's games to KOTOR II, the sequel Obsidian made to Bioware's KOTOR.

In any average Bioware game, the easiest way to get into anyone's pants is to talk to them about their troubled childhood/the day their wife was murdered/the time when they briefly went evil. As soon as you do that, they either proclaim that they're madly in love with you and want to travel with you to the ends of the earth, or they're madly in lust with you and can't wait to get you by yourself and jump your bones in every position they can think of. The implication from Bioware seems to be that if you're a therapist, you can get with anyone. Obviously, it's good that Bioware are at least attempting to show relationships based on trust in their games, but they still feel rather stilted.

KOTOR II, on the other hand, was different. There are characters such as Mira who, if you try to chat up, will outright tell you that they're not attracted to you. And the romances themselves are much more implied than in KOTOR I, and follow a much more solid emotional arc. Instead of going "OMG! You helped me with my issues, I will love you forever!", characters instead tend more towards "Hey, you helped me with my issues. I kind of feel like I'm developing feelings for you. Maybe we should see where things go between us." Which, I feel, far more accurately depicts the beginning stages of a relationship.

Anyways, it's good that Catherine are being made. Sex is a huge topic, and can be used for far more than titillation. There are a whole host of issues and ideas that can be addressed by using sex and romance as a motif, and we need more developers to explore this, rather than throwing it in merely as fanservice.

Thyunda:

Draconalis:

Thyunda:

Yes. But the manga that gets attention drawn to itself comes under the 'blanket statement'. If you have to actually go looking for the exception to the rule, then the statement applies.

First off, it's not "The exception that proves the rule" because the exception is hardly an exception at all, it is the majority. second, I've already covered this statement with my greedy lawyers comment. Since you didn't seem to understand, allow me to break it down for you.

You don't hear about the good ones, why report on the good ones when it's easier and more amusing to report on the bad ones. many people prefer listening to bitching over praises and compliments.

let me break this down for you.

The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable. Not because it encompasses 100% of all manga, because that'd be ludicrous, but if you take the people who like these cartoon women a little bit more than they should, and be constantly exposed to their ridiculous fantasies and insistence on displaying anime and manga girls in circumstances most unladylike, then maybe you'd have a little bit more sympathy for the article. Countless times I had to ask myself, what kind of person draws this stuff? These women, these characters, exist solely for that single purpose.

And as for greedy lawyers? Lawyers who choose their own cases are very common, and easily outside of the rule. So it doesn't apply.

"The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable."

I love that if someone like Jack Thompson used the same reasons for their views on videogames being 'murder simulators', etc, everyone here would be up in arms. Just swap manga for videogames in the above, it works. Talk about double standards.

ph0b0s123:

Thyunda:

Draconalis:

First off, it's not "The exception that proves the rule" because the exception is hardly an exception at all, it is the majority. second, I've already covered this statement with my greedy lawyers comment. Since you didn't seem to understand, allow me to break it down for you.

You don't hear about the good ones, why report on the good ones when it's easier and more amusing to report on the bad ones. many people prefer listening to bitching over praises and compliments.

let me break this down for you.

The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable. Not because it encompasses 100% of all manga, because that'd be ludicrous, but if you take the people who like these cartoon women a little bit more than they should, and be constantly exposed to their ridiculous fantasies and insistence on displaying anime and manga girls in circumstances most unladylike, then maybe you'd have a little bit more sympathy for the article. Countless times I had to ask myself, what kind of person draws this stuff? These women, these characters, exist solely for that single purpose.

And as for greedy lawyers? Lawyers who choose their own cases are very common, and easily outside of the rule. So it doesn't apply.

"The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable."

I love that if someone like Jack Thompson used the same reasons for their views on videogames being 'murder simulators', etc, everyone here would be up in arms. Just swap manga for videogames in the above, it works. Talk about double standards.

Except there is a HUGE difference here. 'Murder simulator' is a bollocks term in itself, so it doesn't apply.

Thyunda:

ph0b0s123:

Thyunda:

let me break this down for you.

The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable. Not because it encompasses 100% of all manga, because that'd be ludicrous, but if you take the people who like these cartoon women a little bit more than they should, and be constantly exposed to their ridiculous fantasies and insistence on displaying anime and manga girls in circumstances most unladylike, then maybe you'd have a little bit more sympathy for the article. Countless times I had to ask myself, what kind of person draws this stuff? These women, these characters, exist solely for that single purpose.

And as for greedy lawyers? Lawyers who choose their own cases are very common, and easily outside of the rule. So it doesn't apply.

"The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable."

I love that if someone like Jack Thompson used the same reasons for their views on videogames being 'murder simulators', etc, everyone here would be up in arms. Just swap manga for videogames in the above, it works. Talk about double standards.

Except there is a HUGE difference here. 'Murder simulator' is a bollocks term in itself, so it doesn't apply.

As I said, double standards...

ph0b0s123:

Thyunda:

ph0b0s123:

"The 'rule' in question was the article's statement. If you're not interested in manga and only see what happens to cross your path, guaranteed you'll get the impression of the writer's statement. And no, I DON'T mean what people have complained about. I mean what's available on the shelves of Forbidden Planet and whatever I happen to bump into online. Since you argued with the statement by saying "If you did some research...", then the statement is perfectly applicable."

I love that if someone like Jack Thompson used the same reasons for their views on videogames being 'murder simulators', etc, everyone here would be up in arms. Just swap manga for videogames in the above, it works. Talk about double standards.

Except there is a HUGE difference here. 'Murder simulator' is a bollocks term in itself, so it doesn't apply.

As I said, double standards...

There's a huge bloody difference between sexualised pictures and a slanderous term applied to wargames.

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