Jimquisition: Limited Collector's Complete Edition

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Well said. Jim's quickly becoming the highlight of my week on The Escapist.

There's certain instances where I think an "At launch" collectors edition is fine, usually with MMOs. In those cases you're getting some bonus in game stuff for spending the extra money which you, in most cases, get for ever. Rift, for example, if you pre-ordered the CE you got a free mount for every character you'll ever make as well as some extra lil things.

I also think "Box sets" are appropriate. I own many a "Premium Edition" of games because they came in a nice box with some collectible stuff. They were in a genre I like from companies I'm fond of and am willing to spend an extra $10 on (which still only put most of the games at $60) and I got free shipping in the process, so it sorta evens out.

What bothers me is shit like what Capcom does with every game they make these days. Every 6-9months they release the same game with a few editions and an extra adjective on the title and sell it at full price. Then you have the utterly vapid fans of the series who are like "Well getting that stuff as DLC would be an extra $80 on its own." That means the shit is OVERPRICED and your a dumb-ass for paying for it at all.

You have a point there Jim S.
So like every other money maker business the games industry will eat itself if it doesn't implode first, but whats new here?
Money wants more money.
So what do you predict will happen say 2 years?

Thank you Jim. Also anyone who likes the show should check out the destructoid podcast. It is a fantastic podcast.

Many good points that you've made. I often said that I hate DLC and the way it has started to affect the customer.

I remember a time when 'online' was an incentive for gamers to buy a game. Now it is something that I have to pay extra for especially if I get a used game.

I have had one solution though: instead of the online pass in its current form I would suggest that if you bought the game new within the first x months of release, the code would entitle the owner to all of the future DLC. This would make the early adopters get the full/complete collector's edition as a bonus for early adoption.

The only problem I see with this is that I like a disc version of all the content down the line. Even now, only 60% of 360 owners has Xbox Live. Without these complete editions later on, there is no way for the other 40% to access the content. I think that this issue would also need to be addressed.

Satosuke:
So what if a special edition or 'game of the year' edition of a game is released a good chunk of time after the game's initial launch, with all the DLC included? That's a great way to get new players interested. And no, you're not stupid for buying the game when it's first released; all that means is you wanted to play the game now instead of later. And to be honest, unless it's a game-changing piece of DLC, I don't really give a fuck if there's retailer-exclusives offered at launch. If it doesn't effect the game, why would you care?

Jim spouted a lot more DERP than he normally does this week.

Frankly I'm surprised you're not more willing to wait till a price drop or for the "real" edition to come out with all the money you must spend on deviant art commissions. Ah, that was a cheap shot, I just can't stand watching deerunicorngiraffewolves gratifying the publishers who hate them.

Though, more to the point. By your argument, you're not even paying for the game anymore when you buy it new. You're paying for the dubious privilege of playing it first. And, oh boy, if publishers catch onto people like you, there's a slippery slope if I ever saw one. Next thing you know they'll start having an "early access" fee you can pay to get the game a few weeks before everyone else and, sadly, people would pay for that.

You're also willingly paying more for less content. Take the people who bought MvC3. They dropped $60 on that game then, less than a year later, UMvC3 came out with more modes and characters. With that one, the way Capcom worked out the DLC is that buying the DLC as stand-alones cost almost double what it was to just buy UMvC3; basically taking a huge dump on the face of everyone who paid to play it first.

On to your new player point, if you are indeed just paying for the bragging rights of playing it first, shouldn't someone who buys the game new, even later on, get all the added DLC for free anyway rather than have the need for multiple "editions"? That would even give the publishers an excuse to keep the game at full price. Sure its 6 months later and still $60, but you're getting access to 6months of DLC at no additional cost. But no, instead you're left to deal with what are effectively a beta version of the game, which you paid full price for, and the complete edition of the game, which you now have to pay full price for.

Or, do the reverse of that and most, if not all, future DLC is included in the price of the game. You bought it on day 1? You get all the DLC forever for free. But, if someone buys it 6months later, used or otherwise, then they have the option of buying that backlog of DLC, thus allowing the publisher to recoup some losses from time,etc.

As far as retailer specific DLC, an increasingly high amount of it DOES affect the game. FF13-2, for example, has either in game weapons, a new in-game unit, or a real world book depending on where you purchase and for what system. Fortunately, this isn't very common practice yet, but it quickly might become so and would be a tool for publishers to dissuade people from buying from Gamestop cause they have the less appealing unique DLC. It also discourages people from buying from local, independent shops since they can't offer that little extra; in short, it is especially harmful to small businesses. Small businesses are the backbone of our economy, why do you want them to fail? Why do you hate America, comrade?

So...They should stop releasing complete editions?

Guilt? Ha. Not likely. Though, the occasional collector's edition is a fine thing. Sometimes it's a way to drum up more interest. Though, admittedly, most are just clutter. And store-specific DLC is something I'd like to see banished to the far side of oblivion, because if it's a game I like, and like enough to get the DLC, then I either want all of it, or to pick and choose. Offering up codes for items that exist in the game but are deemed inaccessible because I preordered from one group, but not both, is six kinds of unscratchable-itch annoying. I'd love to personally meet the asshat that came up with that idea, because my knee desperately wants to come into contact with their genitals. Forcefully.

Though, not sure what your beef with Enslaved is. You pissed at the game? The developers? The reception? The way we completely failed to buy it, but kinda just passed around a couple copies between us? What's the deal there, Jim?

The whole episode was very well said, especially the bit about confusing consumers and making everyone have to do a mountain of research to buy a damn game.

At some point, I plan to do a similar video myself about the bullshit that is the music industry and their editions (iTunes edition, SHM edition, Japanese bonus tracks, regional variations, etc.)

In the age of the internet where piracy is quite common, all these companies are doing is punishing the consumer who wants to give them their hard earned money.

http://www.cpuhack.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/PiratevsLegit.jpg - this image sums it up best.

I stopped buy special editions quite a bit ago. For the pointed points, how can something be special if EVERYBODY is special.

Sure sometimes it can be fun to get something extra but yeah.. statues.. those are cool but where to put them? DLC, sigh, you'll sell it later to everybody anyway. Not to mention when it comes to pre-order DLC that won't come out later it is never that special. Think about it a special sword, that for game balance reasons cannot be super powerful. So sure first levels it is bad ass, then it is equal and then it is just a fancy weaker sword then what you can find around.

Hell even Genki's DLC, lets be fair it is fun allot of fun but yeah it isn't needed. I did even get a nice deal with getting Darksiders free, okay then sure sounds good. Free extra older game with your new game purchase sounds fine.

But yeah special editions that really add little but "Oh you got the onion hat, lucky you" *shrug*

You know what I do allot? Second hand, the older generation hardware is allot of fun. And you know it is not always cheap either.. some titles have become rather hard to find. But worth owning, for instance Collector Editions of Zelda, yes the second disc with demo, some older zelda titles and so on. Good stuff! That is worth the extra money paid for it. This sunday I ended up ordering Persona 4, yes an old PS2 game but proven!

The best games end up to the those that you find 4-5 years later..good times. Now if you excuse me I have a foul mouthed, drunk and pissed off squirell calling me on the N64.

But yeah really .. why so many modern games need special editions. Who actually liked the balls of steel edition of DNF. Who actually did like DNF, at most I did ironically.

My god. Jim Sterling really is right about everything.

And of course, the other thing developers could do in their "collectors editions" is stop packing it with crap. I mean, take a look at some of the crap the jam in there. Oooo, concept art, behind the scenes and making of DvDs, and one good thing. And they have the nerve to charge 40 bucks or more for that stuff.

I was tempted to buy the D:3 CE but lets take a look at whats in there. The game (obviously), Diablo skull flash drive mount and soulstone flash drive with diablo 1 and 2 on it. Digital aesthetic items for D3, WoW and SC2. Behind the scenes blue/ray dvd set. An art book. And the sound track.

OMG, so much stuff right? Not really. First, anyone who really wants to buy the collectors edition has probably already played at least diablo 2, if not 1 and 2. So, wow. New copies of games. I already own. Super. The aesthetic items are meh at best. The behind the scenes "making of" stuff. Who cares? Do people even watch those? I tried watching the behind the scenes for a starwars movie once. Snore. A conceptual artbook. Again, who cares? I bought the collectors edition of Wrath of the lich king and I flipped through that art book once. Now its collecting dust. And the soundtrack. What, are you going to put it on your iPod or something and listen to the D3 soundtrack while you are out jogging? The only cool thing in the entire box is the diablo skull and the soulstone flashdrive, but even thats only a 4g drive. You can buy one of those at walmart for like 10 bucks.

And so how much are you paying for a diablo skull and a 4g flashdrive? 40 bucks (vs the price of the regular version)

How about paring down all this "value" and just giving the cool stuff that people would actually want, for at most 20 bucks. Scrap the token "collectors edition" stocking stuffer bullcrap that nobody wants and save us both money.

poundingmetal74:
The whole episode was very well said, especially the bit about confusing consumers and making everyone have to do a mountain of research to buy a damn game.

At some point, I plan to do a similar video myself about the bullshit that is the music industry and their editions (iTunes edition, SHM edition, Japanese bonus tracks, regional variations, etc.)

In the age of the internet where piracy is quite common, all these companies are doing is punishing the consumer who wants to give them their hard earned money.

http://www.cpuhack.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/PiratevsLegit.jpg - this image sums it up best.

Indeed, that image does sum it up best.

Studios would do well to just give us the freaken movie as well. Stop with the DvD/Blueray multi packs with the director cometary and interviews with random people ( I don't care what the boom guy was thinking during the shoot) with bonus games and previews and other crap. Just give us the damn movie and charge us less.

Thankyou Jim!

RE: Price Cuts

Price cuts are a matter of supply and demand. Games that sell well stay at higher prices while games that sell poorly get their prices cut. It's as simple as that.

For example, right now on Steam both Modern Warfare (a game four years old) and Duke Nukem Forever (a game less than a year old) sell for $19.99. Black Ops, over a year since the original release, is still a full $59.99!

RE: DLC

There are two types of DLCs, good and bad.

The good DLCs take the form of what used to be called expansions for PC games. Borderlands and Fallout 3/NV are perfect examples of games with good DLCs. It is not only inevitable that such DLCs will be bundled in a "GOTY Edition" it is a good thing because it allows newer customers to get the full experience right out of the box.

The bad DLCs take the form of pointless extras like skin packs. The Oblivion horse armor and similar items in Dragon Age: Origins are perfect examples of bad DLC. These things do have their place though in free-to-play games. The infamous hats in Team Fortress 2 are a good example.

Finally there is the worst kind of extra content, the non-downloadable extra content. Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 is an example. You bought the original MvC3 but want the extra content from UMvC3? Sorry, you can't get it a la carte, you must pony up the money for a full version of UMvC3. This is criminal* and I don't know how Capcom is still getting away with this. These sorts of things made sense back in the 80s and 90s when Capcom made their money on the arcades and it was nice that they kept making updated versions of their coin ops. But in the days of DLCs this is simply unexcusable.

*I'm being hyperbolic.

Zom-B:

bringer of illumination:

Scrumpmonkey:
Firsly i would just like to say;

You should NEVER feel guilty for buying used, it is your RIGHT as a consumer.

I have to say that I don't really understand this argument.

It's also my right as a human being to seclude myself in my apartment, live in my own filth, and die at the age of 30 from a heart-attack caused by overwhelming obesity.

Does the fact that one has the right to do this mean that one shouldn't be embarrassed or feel guilty for leading such a life?

No, I'm not saying that these two things are exactly equivalent, but can you at least see where I'm coming from?

I'm not saying this because I think buying used is something to feel guilty about (not especially anyway), but rather because I see this argument that "If it's my right to do something then it's always perfectly acceptable to do it and there shouldn't be any negative consequences" so often.

And it's just so dumb.

"Wall of text that I don't in any way disagree with"

Well I DID say that I didn't think they were equivalent and that buying used games wasn't something to feel guilty over.

The only thing I took any umbrage with is the argument that the fact that it's your right to do something makes it perfectly acceptable.

So I hardly understand the purpose of your response.

I agree, Enslaved: Odyssey to the West was a shit game. Luckily I found it for $40 or something like that over the internet on release. For us who live in Australia, that's pretty good. Still, I won't play it ever again.

girzwald:
My god. Jim Sterling really is right about everything. .

the only thing that annoys me is when collectors editions give you "in-game" stuff

look, Im not paying this much for pixels..I want "physical" Items people

but dont write off all collectors editions..sure its probably not worth it unless your a big fan, however if you are....theres sotmhing special about a nice box and extra things...and some are really cool

Like Infamous 2..an awsome looking big box (looks great on top of my shelf) coles backpack, and a really cool figurine/statue...I usually go for ones with figurines in them (like the batman AC one..that was awsome)

in other words...you know what your getting,

Alas I am a sucker for artbooks so I continue buying whatever edition of the game coming out. I mean hell I got Diablo 3, Mass Effect 3, Max Payne 3, and Ninja Gaiden 3 all preordered and all collectors (though I am getting Max Payne 3 for $50). That's $330 just about without the tax included. Yet I get them because I love the stuff that it comes with and because I know I am going to love the games already. Don't mind shelling out that extra bit of cash for something I know I love.

I agree 100% that the games industry has trained consumers to take a wait and see attitude with a new title. They tell you in advance that they will have DLC, which means that there will be a Game of the Year/Complete edition if you are patient enough and most likely it will retail for a much cheaper price with all content on disc. Also, any title with a sequel will likely get a bundle at some point down the road. All these things tell the savvy consumer to save their pennies.

Keep on preaching the good word Jim!

Being a die hard Fallout fan. I got the collector's edition of Fallout 3 when it came out. The the DLC was announced, I had to buy them individually through that shitty games for windows thing. Awhile later they release the GOTY edition with everything in one disc for like 50 bucks. Needless to say I was pissed.

For New Vegas, it killed me to do it, but I didn't buy it when it came out, I was gonna wait for some edition where all the DLC was in one disc but thanks to Steam I got it with all the DLC for like 20 bucks. I think that at the very least, if you buy a Collector's Edition of a game when it comes out, all future DLC should be included for free!

Another reason why used games are good for the consumer and their wallets, and naysayers are either full of themselves or out of touch with reality.

I disagree with the point about 'GOTY editions' and 'Complete Editions' of games being a bad thing. Yes, it does give people a reason to wait for it to come out. But it's not like the people who pay for it on release don't get anything. They normally get to play the game a year+ in advanced. Though it is shrinking more and more. But even 6+ months is a long time in my opinion. That's a pretty good deal for about $30-$40 depending on the added content (like the MK9 Complete seems mostly a waste to me).

As for Collector's Editions, I don't think they're inharently bad for new IPs if they follow a few simple rules. These are: Don't make it too expensive (the $200 for a new IP example falls under the just stupid price-range. I wouldn't pay that much for an IP I LOVED unless the stuff was actually completely worth it), include some good quality items in it and not just DLC, and finally, don't try making multiple versions to confuse people. I think games like Records of Argast War did it right. From what I remember, the CE was only $60, with $50 for the normal. That's only $10 and is actually the normal price for a game. I actually like that some games are making the pre-order bonuses special editions.

That brings me to multiple retailer DLC. DON'T DO THAT. There is not anything more annoying to me then having to choose between someplace I want to buy a game. I can buy it somewhere I don't like like Gamestop and get something good or someplace I do like and miss out. It's just stupid.

Easily your best video so far. I'm in total agreement with ya Jim, and Thank you! I just hope everyone listens.

Am I an idiot for buying ME3 collector's addition. Meh, maybe. Do I regret that choice? Meh, not really.

Jim Sterling is a true American hero.

Shotgun Guy:
Thank you Jim and even if nobody listens to you at least after everything goes to shit people like me can point to your videos and say "Look! You fucking twats! He's been warning you all along and you didn't listen...YOU DIDN'T LISTEN!!!"

Hah, too true buddy. Thing is, nobody does listen. People will still buy AT LAUNCH, pretty much anything, it's in their nature. People will line up around the block to be the first to watch or buy the latest, because of hype, fanboy/girlism, or just to be cool, first, or because they just don't care about anything else and want it that bad.

It's nothing new. With the price of games climbing, the DRM and updates, extra software and patches needed, day one DLC, just no matter what fucking happens people will still line up around the block to be the first, and it will sell like all shit on the first day. So if the "evil publishers" can get away with it, they'll damn well do it. That's not to say the games aren't getting better and a million times more elaborate and still don't warrant these price hikes, but the pubs are just trying to make money, like any Bill Gates or Joe Blow.

Thankyoou Mr. Sterling (in monotone primary classroom voice)

pretty true. im also never happy if i have to get a DLC which still costs some money. i got my self the CE of ME2 which cost me 120AUD. and later on i still had to get the DLCs for this game. i was always wondering why i dint had access in to these 2 rooms on the normandy.

AC2 was different. you got at least the whole lot, including a statue of ezio (always on my desk) and the additional levels. yes, i did pay more but at least i had the whole lot.
deus ex HR the missing link was at least worth the money. even it should have been in the final version, it was very good and if you play in stealth mode, i actually got out over 8 hours of game play.

but i do agree that if the publisher bring out a game no one has really heard of or how it will be, this is really stupid and almost false advertising.

bringer of illumination:

Zom-B:

bringer of illumination:

I have to say that I don't really understand this argument.

It's also my right as a human being to seclude myself in my apartment, live in my own filth, and die at the age of 30 from a heart-attack caused by overwhelming obesity.

Does the fact that one has the right to do this mean that one shouldn't be embarrassed or feel guilty for leading such a life?

No, I'm not saying that these two things are exactly equivalent, but can you at least see where I'm coming from?

I'm not saying this because I think buying used is something to feel guilty about (not especially anyway), but rather because I see this argument that "If it's my right to do something then it's always perfectly acceptable to do it and there shouldn't be any negative consequences" so often.

And it's just so dumb.

"Wall of text that I don't in any way disagree with"

Well I DID say that I didn't think they were equivalent and that buying used games wasn't something to feel guilty over.

The only thing I took any umbrage with is the argument that the fact that it's your right to do something makes it perfectly acceptable.

So I hardly understand the purpose of your response.

Some things that are in your right to do are perfectly acceptable. Some things aren't. Depends on who you are and what the right in question is.

bringer of illumination:

Zom-B:

bringer of illumination:

I have to say that I don't really understand this argument.

It's also my right as a human being to seclude myself in my apartment, live in my own filth, and die at the age of 30 from a heart-attack caused by overwhelming obesity.

Does the fact that one has the right to do this mean that one shouldn't be embarrassed or feel guilty for leading such a life?

No, I'm not saying that these two things are exactly equivalent, but can you at least see where I'm coming from?

I'm not saying this because I think buying used is something to feel guilty about (not especially anyway), but rather because I see this argument that "If it's my right to do something then it's always perfectly acceptable to do it and there shouldn't be any negative consequences" so often.

And it's just so dumb.

"Wall of text that I don't in any way disagree with"

Well I DID say that I didn't think they were equivalent and that buying used games wasn't something to feel guilty over.

The only thing I took any umbrage with is the argument that the fact that it's your right to do something makes it perfectly acceptable.

So I hardly understand the purpose of your response.

Well, acceptable is entirely subjective. Some people think that it's entirely within a person's rights to die at the time of their choosing, especially if they are living in pain or with a terminal disease. Yet some people also think that's not acceptable.

In many places it's a woman's right to have an abortion and yet some people don't think that's acceptable too.

My point is YOU only get to choose what is acceptable for YOU. While I would never endorse living in your own filth and dieing of obesity at 30, it's also not my place to tell people they can't do that.

Whatever your position is, you're drawing comparisons between used sales and terrible lifestyle choices. It casts used sales in a negative light, which is the only reason I can think of to make such a comparison. Since you didn't compare used sales to something positive I can only infer you take a negative view of them.

Remember that Extra Consideration bit they used to do on here, Jim? I'd love to see you and Yahtzee have a back and forth debate over some of these issues in more depth. Both of you have my highest respect for your insightful and entertaining analysis of the gaming industry and culture. Considering the used games debate pits you both on opposite ends, I think the discussion would be very informative and entertaining.

Also, THANK GOD FOR JIM STERLING!

erttheking:
Am I an idiot for buying ME3 collector's addition. Meh, maybe. Do I regret that choice? Meh, not really.

why would it make you an idiot? it just means you think the extra stuff is worth it

(and no Im not just saying that because Im geting it too....*cough*)

I figured since mass effect was at one point MY FAVORITE THING EVER I would end the series with somthing special

Satosuke:
So what if a special edition or 'game of the year' edition of a game is released a good chunk of time after the game's initial launch, with all the DLC included? That's a great way to get new players interested. And no, you're not stupid for buying the game when it's first released; all that means is you wanted to play the game now instead of later.

GOTY editions are awesome when they come around. I play nearly every genre out there, so GOTY editions are near-guaranteed games I'd love, plus all of the worthy, game-extending DLC along for the ride.

But I can't say that will be the next bloke's choice, even if it's hailed as 'The Game of the Year' of some year. Price is an issue too; While I know the GOTY edition is a significant price reduction compared to the content provided, it's still a $50-$60 game to a person who's not familiar with the game.

I'll agree with you that no one is a fool for buying a great game on/near release day. If you do feel like a fool, ask yourself if you REALLY feel more entertained hearing about how amazing a game is, or just playing the damn game. You'll have to sort out the cost from there.

After this video, it hit me. The best way to protest is not to boycott or *insert other means here*. It's to wait for the price to drop. Publishers like to boast about first day/week/month sales. If we wait for the price to drop - usually a year or so - it's like poking them in the eye legitimately.

The hard part is the waiting I guess.

Is it just me or is he completely missing the point of complete editions? You know, the whole releasing it a year later for a cheaper price with included dlc? you know, to give older games a bit of steam after its already fallen out of most people radars?

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