War of the Roses Preview

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Yeah, but if they're aiming for a more mainstream audience then cue dozens of people taking the crossbow and trying to play 'sniper'. Why partake in a dramatic melee when you can lie on a hill and repeatedly miss for the entire battle?

Blunderboy:

CUnk:
Pfft. Story and setting sounds like a total Game of Thrones ripoff.

What?
It's based on actual history.

God I hope you're trolling.

But much of Game of Thrones was based on the War of the Roses.

image

Geo Da Sponge:
Yeah, but if they're aiming for a more mainstream audience then cue dozens of people taking the crossbow and trying to play 'sniper'. Why partake in a dramatic melee when you can lie on a hill and repeatedly miss for the entire battle?

Or try and take shot far beyond the Crossbow's effective range and have the bolt just bounce off all that lovely plate armour! (assuming such a mechanic exists......but if so, I shall savour the tears of the ragers.)

Geo Da Sponge:
Yeah, but if they're aiming for a more mainstream audience then cue dozens of people taking the crossbow and trying to play 'sniper'. Why partake in a dramatic melee when you can lie on a hill and repeatedly miss for the entire battle?

Blunderboy:

CUnk:
Pfft. Story and setting sounds like a total Game of Thrones ripoff.

What?
It's based on actual history.

God I hope you're trolling.

But much of Game of Thrones was based on the War of the Roses.

image

Ah with you now.
I've only seen the TV series. I haven't read the books and nothing really narrowed it down to the War of the Roses for me.

Major Tom:

Geo Da Sponge:
Yeah, but if they're aiming for a more mainstream audience then cue dozens of people taking the crossbow and trying to play 'sniper'. Why partake in a dramatic melee when you can lie on a hill and repeatedly miss for the entire battle?

Or try and take shot far beyond the Crossbow's effective range and have the bolt just bounce off all that lovely plate armour! (assuming such a mechanic exists......but if so, I shall savour the tears of the ragers.)

Good grief, I certainly hope so! No more of this Deadliest Warrior "Shooting an arrow straight into a piece of armour at point-blank range pierces it, so it's useless" nonsense!

I'm all for competitive multiplayer games that aren't modern military shooters. There's a Half-Life 2 mod called Age of Chivalry that's similar in concept to this, and what Dark Messiah did (capture points, teams, etc. but with swords and arrows). That might've taken it a little towards the hardcore end of the spectrum though, what with the no aiming reticle, even for the projectiles.

Blunderboy:

CUnk:
Pfft. Story and setting sounds like a total Game of Thrones ripoff.

What?
It's based on actual history.

God I hope you're trolling.

Something so completely outrageous as that is obviously a joke.

For fellow Yorkshiremen: Lancastrians held most of Yorkshire during the wars. The House of York was more based in the south.

Gatx:
I'm all for competitive multiplayer games that aren't modern military shooters. There's a Half-Life 2 mod called Age of Chivalry that's similar in concept to this, and what Dark Messiah did (capture points, teams, etc. but with swords and arrows). That might've taken it a little towards the hardcore end of the spectrum though, what with the no aiming reticle, even for the projectiles.

Blunderboy:

CUnk:
Pfft. Story and setting sounds like a total Game of Thrones ripoff.

What?
It's based on actual history.

God I hope you're trolling.

Something so completely outrageous as that is obviously a joke.

See you say that, but I've come across people who say something like that in all seriousness.

Major Tom:
One particular bugbear of mine: There is no such thing as plate maille. The term originated in D&D, not any historical source. Nowadays, though, it could also be used as a contraction referring to plated maille (typing in plate mail into wikipedia directs you to this) or plate and maille, The first popular in Middle Eastern countries and the latter a transitional type as armour went from the maille hauberk to the plate harness.

Teddy Roosevelt:

TO be fair, Mr. Butts, plate and mail was fairly heavy, and while it may not have restricted in terms of range of motion as much as everyone thinks, though I think it pretty nearly did, it was in all about 70 pounds of sheet and ring steel. No matter where those 70 pounds are, those are 70 pounds that will slow you down quite a bit.

OT: Also, this looks quite like a game I'd like to get.

70 pounds is on the heavy side for a field harness. Armour could weigh anywhere between 50-70 pounds, depending on the smith that made it, and if it was a fitted piece, the requirements of the customer. However, I would not use the term 'slow down' when it comes to armour. Properly fitted, the amount of movement you can do is not restricted by a lot. Carrying that extra weight will affect your ability to do high energy activities for long periods of time, so it's more of an affect on your endurance that speed.

Also, plate and maille armour was pretty much obsolete by the mid 15th century. The full plate harness was quite well developed, so the amount of mail was generally restricted to the joints, so the maille component wouldn't be a great part of the total weight.

OT: I'm also intrigued by this game. I wonder if Paradox will release a demo for it, like they did for Mount & Blade (restricted levels or something, but enough of the game to get a good feel for the game. I dished out for both Mount & Blade and Warband based on those demos).

Edit: On my bugbear, anyone who studies the subject in any capacity wouldn't use Plate maille anyway, it's just not a term used by any source. Contemporary sources usually differ in terminology (depending on country), but harness seems to be the term most often used to describe what us normally called a suit today.

In my defense, I was thinking more the heavier armor worn by knights who would fight mounted in any case, as opposed to other knights and men-at-arms who would fight without horses (in this case, then, usually lower class men-at-arms, as knights could usually afford horses), as foot soldiers would likely wear a lighter armor, since all movement was dealt with by their own legs rather than a much stronger horse's.

Though, in terms of mobility, wouldn't duration of high energy activity come into play. Say, if I can sprint 100 meters without armor, but then I put on armor and I can sprint, and one would expect the sprinting then to be at the very least marginally slower as well, for a distance of 50 meters, wouldn't overall mobility be much reduced anyway?

Well, regardless, you've clearly outdone me in your knowledge of medieval armor, something I should therefore catch up on given my interest in medieval warfare which led to my interest in more modern forms of war. Maybe I should take a break reading up on the properties of modern battlefield armor and look back at the basics of good old steel.

Blunderboy:

Gatx:
I'm all for competitive multiplayer games that aren't modern military shooters. There's a Half-Life 2 mod called Age of Chivalry that's similar in concept to this, and what Dark Messiah did (capture points, teams, etc. but with swords and arrows). That might've taken it a little towards the hardcore end of the spectrum though, what with the no aiming reticle, even for the projectiles.

Blunderboy:

What?
It's based on actual history.

God I hope you're trolling.

Something so completely outrageous as that is obviously a joke.

See you say that, but I've come across people who say something like that in all seriousness.

Just to reassure you, yes I was joking. However I had never heard of the War of the Roses until I heard ASoIaF was based on it. Either I wasn't paying attention in school or else it's just not something we learn about in our history courses in America.

Teddy Roosevelt:

Major Tom:
One particular bugbear of mine: There is no such thing as plate maille. The term originated in D&D, not any historical source. Nowadays, though, it could also be used as a contraction referring to plated maille (typing in plate mail into wikipedia directs you to this) or plate and maille, The first popular in Middle Eastern countries and the latter a transitional type as armour went from the maille hauberk to the plate harness.

Teddy Roosevelt:

TO be fair, Mr. Butts, plate and mail was fairly heavy, and while it may not have restricted in terms of range of motion as much as everyone thinks, though I think it pretty nearly did, it was in all about 70 pounds of sheet and ring steel. No matter where those 70 pounds are, those are 70 pounds that will slow you down quite a bit.

OT: Also, this looks quite like a game I'd like to get.

70 pounds is on the heavy side for a field harness. Armour could weigh anywhere between 50-70 pounds, depending on the smith that made it, and if it was a fitted piece, the requirements of the customer. However, I would not use the term 'slow down' when it comes to armour. Properly fitted, the amount of movement you can do is not restricted by a lot. Carrying that extra weight will affect your ability to do high energy activities for long periods of time, so it's more of an affect on your endurance that speed.

Also, plate and maille armour was pretty much obsolete by the mid 15th century. The full plate harness was quite well developed, so the amount of mail was generally restricted to the joints, so the maille component wouldn't be a great part of the total weight.

OT: I'm also intrigued by this game. I wonder if Paradox will release a demo for it, like they did for Mount & Blade (restricted levels or something, but enough of the game to get a good feel for the game. I dished out for both Mount & Blade and Warband based on those demos).

Edit: On my bugbear, anyone who studies the subject in any capacity wouldn't use Plate maille anyway, it's just not a term used by any source. Contemporary sources usually differ in terminology (depending on country), but harness seems to be the term most often used to describe what us normally called a suit today.

In my defense, I was thinking more the heavier armor worn by knights who would fight mounted in any case, as opposed to other knights and men-at-arms who would fight without horses (in this case, then, usually lower class men-at-arms, as knights could usually afford horses), as foot soldiers would likely wear a lighter armor, since all movement was dealt with by their own legs rather than a much stronger horse's.

Though, in terms of mobility, wouldn't duration of high energy activity come into play. Say, if I can sprint 100 meters without armor, but then I put on armor and I can sprint, and one would expect the sprinting then to be at the very least marginally slower as well, for a distance of 50 meters, wouldn't overall mobility be much reduced anyway?

Well, regardless, you've clearly outdone me in your knowledge of medieval armor, something I should therefore catch up on given my interest in medieval warfare which led to my interest in more modern forms of war. Maybe I should take a break reading up on the properties of modern battlefield armor and look back at the basics of good old steel.

There would have been little, if any, difference a plate harness for foot and horse. Should the horse have been killed in melee or the knight otherwise unhorsed (and assuming there wasn't half a dozen guys waiting to jump on him), the knight would have had to have fought on foot anyway. The only thing I can think of that was the domain of the mounted knight was those absurdly long and pointy sabatons (armour for the feet) that emulated the fashion of the time, but my books tell me those could be removed for combat on foot.

As to the mobility issue, I will concede that it is a theoretical exercise for me, I'm far too poor to own a plate harness (or anything outside a helmet, really. That reminds me, I really should get around to finish sewing that Gambeson one day...). But from accounts I a have read, a knight wearing properly fitted armour and trained in its use, the armour shouldn't pose much of a problem. Knights doing things like cartwheels and handstands fully armoured are described and pictured in contemporary texts. Here's a short video showing some aerobics in armour. And another video from a show called Weapons That Made Britain (if you can get a hold of that show, it's really quite informative. It's 4 parts, but well worth the watch if you are interested in this kind of thing).

Though in that latter video the guy states 80 pounds for a full Milanese harness. I will defer to him, seeing as he's made a career out of this and this is just a hobby for me, but I will note that Italian armour, due to the nature of their battlefields, generally tended to be somewhat more heavily armoured than their German counterparts. Personally I like the look of German armours, so I tend to gravitate toward German sources.

Edit: Wait a minute, I can think of some armours made for foot. Though they are somewhat later than the War of the Roses. I'd have to look them up, but from what I remember, they tended to have some more plate around the back of the thighs and bum, so technically they'd be heavier. In the following century, a piece of armour called a tonlet became popular for foot combat. It was essentially a steel skirt, though I have seen one piece that had a detachable section so it could be used on horse.

IndianaJonny:

jez29:

yayforgiveaway:
Ever heard about warband?

My thoughts exactly, as far as I can see this is Mount and Blade with perks - which is no bad thing. Looking forward to Mount and Blade 2 far more though, since we know that Taleworlds can deliver the goods.

Bump. Mount and Blade rather ninja'd on this concept.

You all know that the same company that published Mount & Blade is publishing this game too right?

Everyone in this thread seems to be glossing over that fact. I think this is the spiritual sequel that Mount & Blade 2 deserved. Just doing it with another developer I guess.

I can safely say I look forward to the tactics and gameplay that this will offer.. considering that medieval options consisted of run forward and hopefully mow down the enemy and later be squashed by knights kinda lends itself to the modern FPS player whos runs forward into the enemy mass to kill everything..

I do hope they do this well, not just favoring massive horse-riding aristocracy wielding lances and wearing the perfect metal harness.. I can't really see a way to kill those guys, except with a well aimed gun shot and assuming this is before the common English usage of the gun then I can't say this will be a balanced game..

On the plus side, I look forward to wiping Lancaster's arse across the cold wet floor of Northern England.. see you guys on the field..

AzrealMaximillion:

IndianaJonny:

jez29:

My thoughts exactly, as far as I can see this is Mount and Blade with perks - which is no bad thing. Looking forward to Mount and Blade 2 far more though, since we know that Taleworlds can deliver the goods.

Bump. Mount and Blade rather ninja'd on this concept.

You all know that the same company that published Mount & Blade is publishing this game too right?

Everyone in this thread seems to be glossing over that fact. I think this is the spiritual sequel that Mount & Blade 2 deserved. Just doing it with another developer I guess.

Yeah, guess they're sticking to what they know - we're were just miffed the OP article seemed to have glossed over Paradox's earlier M&B at all in a kind of "omg, look who just invented sliced bread for the first time ever" way.

Why have I not heard of this genre yet? Do want! Guns are getting boring. Even bows/crossbows (the non-modern ones mind you, the Man's bow/crossbow) would feel awesome to be using in team matches.

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