Jimquisition: When Piracy Becomes Theft

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FelixG:
I liked the original intro myself...

Yeah, same here.

FelixG:
I do agree with this though, fuck the big companies, but the indis shouldnt have to deal with that, I may never play it but I am gona go buy that serious sam game just because it had an awesome commercial and I respect the dev.

Die in a fire. I don't care WHO puts out the whatever, they need money to make the games/movies/books/whatever you want, and you're a pedophile burglar if you don't give it to them simply because they're "big". If they're DRMing the Hell out of it or not making it available conveniently, then we get into a gray area, but if they're putting out a DRM-free, non-region locked, easily available product, you better (wo-)man up and pay the company.

If an indie developer DRMed the Hell out of a game and made it difficult to buy/play (e.g., you MUST have an always on internet connection for this single-player game), then pirating that game is just as acceptable as pirating one of EA's. Conversely, if a major publisher releases a game without DRM and no hassles, pirating that game is just as despicable as pirating World of Goo.

The size of the company is irrelevant. Their stance is everything. We must reward companies, big and small, for being awesome and punish them, big and small, for being dicks.

That being said, while I certainly think there's various shades of gray involved when it comes to piracy, the only morally blemish-free method is to pay for your media. If you don't approve of a company's practices, don't buy their stuff. Don't pirate it, but don't buy it, either. If you want to play a game (or watch a movie or read a book), you are morally and ethically obligated to pay for it. This isn't food; you don't "need" to play the latest whatever.

The only time it's completely morally acceptable to pirate a game is if you've already paid for it and you're using the pirated version for convenience or if the company has made it literally impossible for you to give them your money (HBO, I'm looking at you).

Crono1973:
Sorry No, Indie devs are not special and copyright infringement doesn't become theft when it involves an Indie developer.

In fact, I place a lower value on Indie games because most are ugly, simplistic and repetitive. I don't pirate them though, I watch them on YouTube and decide to skip them. I guess this show was required though, given the anti-piracy stance of the escapist.

BTW, when I hear people talk about castrating and torturing people (I guess only males are pirates), I assume they are not to be taken seriously.

I swear he said female genitalia too. This so applies not just to indie games. For example what about that new rayman game which doesn't have that strict DRM that most ubisoft games have?

Brian Hendershot:
I think people are missing the point of this video. You should pay something to humble indie devs at the very least because they respect you. They take out all the DRM, give the proceeds to charity and in the process are losing money. At the very least you are giving money to charity and getting some sweet games in the process.

And let's get off the topic of if it is theft or piracy. That's missing the point. Whatever you are doing, in the case of the humble indie devs, is just wrong.

Plus...it's only like a penny..come on...

Guilt trips don't work with text, you need TONE to successfully apply a guilt trip.

Crono1973:
If I steal your bike, then you lose a bike. That's theft.
If you copy one of your games, you lose nothing. See the difference?

No, Jim was saying still an indie game is bad....stealing a company game is fine. Piracy fucks every game maker regardless of what the charge is or who makes it. So your analogy fails, Jim is talking about taking a game with out paying and some how because they are independent they deserve less piracy than a normal company. Im thinking its more to do with poor and the rich. A big company has loads of cash so pirate them, an independent has less money so pay them for the game. When will people learn that pirates want things for free regardless what it costs or who makes the game.

I love the Humble Bundle! While I'm not nearly as extreme as Jim, and probably not as insane either, I do agree that certain kinds of piracy are more shameful than others. But this also just goes to show that a small portion of people, be they pirates on the internet or just regular people in real life, will NEVER pay for anything they can get for free, no matter how ridiculous the circumstances are.

What's wrong with clitorises, Jim?? Do you prefer something else on your lover? :S

SonOfVoorhees:

Crono1973:
If I steal your bike, then you lose a bike. That's theft.
If you copy one of your games, you lose nothing. See the difference?

No, Jim was saying still an indie game is bad....stealing a company game is fine. Piracy fucks every game maker regardless of what the charge is or who makes it. So your analogy fails, Jim is talking about taking a game with out paying and some how because they are independent they deserve less piracy than a normal company. Im thinking its more to do with poor and the rich. A big company has loads of cash so pirate them, an independent has less money so pay them for the game. When will people learn that pirates want things for free regardless what it costs or who makes the game.

That's not what he was saying. He said that it's always illegal for once. It's always wrong in that sense. But different circumstances can make it more or less shameful than others.

For example, pedophilia and burglary are both crimes, but pedophilia is much more shameful than burglary. It's not more or less illegal, but it affects how people look at you and judge you. In the case of burglary, just as an example, let's say you argue that you had no choice because you wanted a way to feed your starving children. And let's assume that you basically had no other choice. In the eyes of others, what you did is still wrong, but there is much less shame to it because you felt that your hand was forced due to circumstances beyond your control. No less illegal, but less shameful.

That completely goes away when you talk about the Humble Bundle for example. No invasive DRM, no over-pricing or anything else that you can use to excuse yourself. You're just a prick then. And sadly, people like that exist in all facets of society, regardless of what you're talking about.

Jimothy Sterling:
This video is not a serious "is piracy theft?" discussion. Those believing so may have slightly veered away from the intended point I was making and may have not quite gotten the sardonic part of it.

Did I get it right sir? :D

Crono1973:
If I steal your bike, then you lose a bike. That's theft.
If you copy one of your games, you lose nothing. See the difference?

Erm that bike wasnt for sale so its theft. A game is for sale, legally. So what is that? Also a difference between a friend letting another friend copy a game and the internet to download for free. Big different.

Ok, you make a picture to sell. Ten people walk in, photocopy it and walk out. Is that theft, after all you still got the original copy. Just admit you dont want to pay for stuff.

I would vote for Jim Sterling, but he is not eligible since he wasn't born in the US (I believe). Though that was almost inspiring me to quickly fill out my form for an absentee ballot for my state's upcoming primary.

While I find Jim to be generally annoying in tone this has kind of been my thoughts as well. CDproject guys got an enormous amount of flak for suing people who leaked Witcher but in this case it did hurt them and not some soulness publisher. I think the pirates deserved what they got.

1. Hey, don't look at me- I bought World of Goo. (And it was worth every penny. Seriously. Pick it up if you haven't yet. The soundtrack alone is worth what they're asking.)

2. Presumably Jim was born in the UK, so he can't be legally elected president. If we're talking more of an "armed-insurrection-dictator-for-life" kind of thing, well, let me know.

3. Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the second episode talking about piracy is the episode where the jimquisition stopped stealing borrowing video from Fallout...?

Crono1973:

Brian Hendershot:
I think people are missing the point of this video. You should pay something to humble indie devs at the very least because they respect you. They take out all the DRM, give the proceeds to charity and in the process are losing money. At the very least you are giving money to charity and getting some sweet games in the process.

And let's get off the topic of if it is theft or piracy. That's missing the point. Whatever you are doing, in the case of the humble indie devs, is just wrong.

Plus...it's only like a penny..come on...

Guilt trips don't work with text, you need TONE to successfully apply a guilt trip.

Perhaps you are right. Maybe I should try the Elcor approach.

Angry Tone. I think people are missing the point of this video. Passionately, you should pay something to humble indie devs at the very least because they respect you. They take out all the DRM, give the proceeds to charity and in the process are losing money. At the very least you are giving money to charity and getting some sweet games in the process.

And let's get off the topic of if it is theft or piracy. That's missing the point. Whatever you are doing, in the case of the humble indie devs, is just wrong.

Exasperated, Plus...it's only like a penny..come on...

Totally agree with ya Jim, it's totally shameful and just plain wrong.

This video is not a serious "is piracy theft?" discussion. Those believing so may have slightly veered away from the intended point I was making and may have not quite gotten the sardonic part of it.

Naeras:

Crono1973:
Sorry No, Indie devs are not special and copyright infringement doesn't become theft when it involves an Indie developer.

In fact, I place a lower value on Indie games because most are ugly, simplistic and repetitive. I don't pirate them though, I watch them on YouTube and decide to skip them. I guess this show was required though, given the anti-piracy stance of the escapist.

The point here is that indie games a) generally don't cost anything at all and b) often times the money doesn't go to the official publisher money pile, but to the developer. Also they don't screw me over by making me install spyware on my computer in order to let me play the game, unlike said publishers. That's why it's infuriating to see how cheap people are. It's like pirating an ice cream sandwich, if that had been possible.

It doesn't really change the argument for whether or not it's "copyright infringement" or "theft", indeed. But if I got told one guy pirated Bastion and another guy pirated a Ubisoft title, I know which of them I'd call out as the bigger douchebag.

You can't pirate an ice cream sandwich, you can steal one and that's theft. Pirating software is not theft, it's copyright infringement.

For those who are confused about copyright infringement vs theft. Copyright Infringment means that only certain entities have the RIGHT to make COPIES of something, usually the publisher. Others who do it are infringing on the copyright as they are not legally allowed to make copies (outside of a legal backup). No matter how people try to twist it, it just isn't the same as walking into Wal Mart and stuffing a 360 game into your pants.

Scummy little toads ripping off humble developers that deserve money more than corrupt publishing conglomerates?!

LET'S CROAK SOME TOADS!!!

*Bucky O' Hare fanfare*

Azuaron:

FelixG:
I liked the original intro myself...

Yeah, same here.

FelixG:
I do agree with this though, fuck the big companies, but the indis shouldnt have to deal with that, I may never play it but I am gona go buy that serious sam game just because it had an awesome commercial and I respect the dev.

Die in a fire. I don't care WHO puts out the whatever, they need money to make the games/movies/books/whatever you want, and you're a pedophile burglar if you don't give it to them simply because they're "big". If they're DRMing the Hell out of it or not making it available conveniently, then we get into a gray area, but if they're putting out a DRM-free, non-region locked, easily available product, you better (wo-)man up and pay the company.

I actually buy all my games and ignore those with horrible DRM and what not, but good job violating the terms of service by calling me names!

Though I do agree, HBO are kinda douchebags, I resent having to get cable just to watch that damn show.

They cracked the Humble Indy Bundle? How do you crack that which has no copy protection?

Piracy is unacceptable regardless. Saying a big company deserves it and an independent company doesn't is pathetic. For starters all the big companies started off as independents.Its like reading comments written by retards. Either you are against it or for it, the size of the company isnt an issue. Its like saying rich people should be burgled more than poor people and making a law that allows it. Those that thing, somehow, pirates give a shit about independent gaming and thats why they pirates games from big companies as some kind of protest. Pirates dont give a shit. They want the game for free and they will download it for free. If your mum made a game with her life savings.....people would still download it for free.

Once again, I thought I was 100% done with extreme profanity as humor, but Jim Sterling proves that there's still a little bit toothpaste left to squeeze out of the tube if you're clever enough with your wordings. Seriously, I laughed out loud twice during this video.

As for the actual content of it. I'm having a little bit of a problem with what he's implying with this whole string of piracy videos. No question that pirating games from struggling indie developers that trust their customers is more despicable than pirating a AAA-game from a big publisher. But that doesn't in any way justify pirating a game from a major publisher. I know that's not what he's saying, but I can easily see some people justifying pirating with "they have more money than they can spend, they're not hurt by piracy". Which is not OK! It's kind of important for me to draw the line, "less bad" does not equal "not bad".

Raggedstar:
Wait...people torrent the humble bundle? Geeze, WHY? Why would anyone want to do that with a bundle that allows you to pay what you can? That's pretty low indeed.

Probably doesn't help that they host official torrents for downloading the games in the bundle. (Used it once for the Linux version of Shank. Like Hell I was going to download 2 gigs the old fashioned way.) Also, they probably don't check the IP addresses of all the downloads, since the honor system dictates that all those separate downloads are just the same guy from different computers rather than pirates.

SonOfVoorhees:

Crono1973:
If I steal your bike, then you lose a bike. That's theft.
If you copy one of your games, you lose nothing. See the difference?

Erm that bike wasnt for sale so its theft. A game is for sale, legally. So what is that? Also a difference between a friend letting another friend copy a game and the internet to download for free. Big different.

Ok, you make a picture to sell. Ten people walk in, photocopy it and walk out. Is that theft, after all you still got the original copy. Just admit you dont want to pay for stuff.

Whether the bike/game is for sale is not relevant at all. No difference if you obtain the copy from a friend or online. Your picture example is interesting, I have no answer.

Your last sentence is bullshit, you shouldn't go around calling people pirates just because they have a different view than you.

One thing I'd like to point out: ever since Jim added the chainsword to the intro, there's been two little hiccups in the audio where that segment was inserted. In this new intro, the hiccups are still there, and they're no longer in a place where it even makes sense for them to be there.

Can whoever's responsible for the intro please fix this? :)

Acrisius:
For example, pedophilia and burglary are both crimes, but pedophilia is much more shameful than burglary.

An shame has what to do with anything? lol. Stop coming up with idiotic reasons. Theft is theft, whether the person is rich or poor - thats how the law sees it. Look at the shame amount is just guilt and morals....not law.

I think this is the best way to explain how this works. Yes, it's been on the escapist before.
image

File sharing is kind of a dick move, so I learn to go without.

What about games that devs refuse to release games in other countries? AAI2 is a upcoming example. People are making a english patch but its not going to be released till a certain time if Capcom still says no. Am I such a bad person for pirating a game that Capcom has no intention of releasing even after I told them I'd buy the game?

In my opinion, if a company refuses to or can't release a game in my country then its ok to pirate. Or if you cannot buy it in any store and if you do buy it, the dev sees none of the money unless its rereleased(AKA: Earthbound).

When did theft come to mean that somebody lost something?

You go in and add a bunch of zeros to your bank balance, then buy a bunch of games on debit.
The bank didn't lose anything, no physical object was transferred, the store got paid. Are we going to argue there was no theft there.

Theft has been widely understood, since basically the dawn of history, of someone taking something that doesn't belong to them.

That the other person no longer had it was simply a side-effect of physical reality, but was never the point of theft.

Not until pirates started thinking, "How do I justify my douche-baggery?" anyway.

RaikuFA:
What about games that devs refuse to release games in other countries? AAI2 is a upcoming example. People are making a english patch but its not going to be released till a certain time if Capcom still says no. Am I such a bad person for pirating a game that Capcom has no intention of releasing even after I told them I'd buy the game?

In my opinion, if a company refuses to or can't release a game in my country then its ok to pirate. Or if you cannot buy it in any store and if you do buy it, the dev sees none of the money unless its rereleased(AKA: Earthbound).

I wouldn't condemn anyone who pirated The Last Story in North America, I would ask them how good it is.

Crono1973:

Whether the bike/game is for sale is not relevant at all. No difference if you obtain the copy from a friend or online. Your picture example is interesting, I have no answer.

Your last sentence is bullshit, you shouldn't go around calling people pirates just because they have a different view than you.

The opinion doesnt matter. Im calling a person a pirate cos they copy, not buy, something that isnt theres. Its not a one off loan or copy of a friend in which you do the same for him. Its a site that copies it to thousands of people. Strangers. Your only reason to go their is because you want it for free.

You say my last sentence was bullshit but you still wouldnt be happy with people copying something you made for free instead of paying you for it.

SonOfVoorhees:

Crono1973:
If I steal your bike, then you lose a bike. That's theft.
If you copy one of your games, you lose nothing. See the difference?

Erm that bike wasnt for sale so its theft. A game is for sale, legally. So what is that? Also a difference between a friend letting another friend copy a game and the internet to download for free. Big different.

Ok, you make a picture to sell. Ten people walk in, photocopy it and walk out. Is that theft, after all you still got the original copy. Just admit you dont want to pay for stuff.

Actually its not.

Otherwise there would be no pictures of paintings ect on the internet

I doubt I will be charged with theft for this

or

This

Kwil:
When did theft come to mean that somebody lost something?

You go in and add a bunch of zeros to your bank balance, then buy a bunch of games on debit.
The bank didn't lose anything, no physical object was transferred, the store got paid. Are we going to argue there was no theft there.

Theft has been widely understood, since basically the dawn of history, of someone taking something that doesn't belong to them.

That the other person no longer had it was simply a side-effect of physical reality, but was never the point of theft.

Not until pirates started thinking, "How do I justify my douche-baggery?" anyway.

You need to re-examine your example. How did the bank lose nothing AND the store get paid?

From a non-legal standpoint, I'm not certain what makes people so insistent that piracy not be called theft. From the perspective of someone who is not prosecuting or defending anyone in a legal battlefield, the sentiment is still the same. You take something that is being offered one specific way by a developer, tell them that you know better than them when it comes to how their work is distributed, and then create a scenario where they receive no recompense for their work. While the specifics don't necessarily fall in line with theft, the spirit of harming someone else financially for one's own personal benefit is still fairly similar.

Really guys, you're not in court, and while you can perhaps defend certain acts of piracy, things like this can't be gussied up by changing the word.

I dont care what any of you do. Download whatever you for free, i really dont care. Just dont make out its a moral crusade against capitalism or against big business. You just want it for free - i can understand that. Not all the bullshit reasons you all give for it.

SonOfVoorhees:

Crono1973:

Whether the bike/game is for sale is not relevant at all. No difference if you obtain the copy from a friend or online. Your picture example is interesting, I have no answer.

Your last sentence is bullshit, you shouldn't go around calling people pirates just because they have a different view than you.

The opinion doesnt matter. Im calling a person a pirate cos they copy, not buy, something that isnt theres. Its not a one off loan or copy of a friend in which you do the same for him. Its a site that copies it to thousands of people. Strangers. Your only reason to go their is because you want it for free.

You say my last sentence was bullshit but you still wouldnt be happy with people copying something you made for free instead of paying you for it.

You basically called ME a pirate and that is bullshit.

It's the sad truth of our society that there will always be people who are going to pirate it, just like there will always be people who steal things from shops etc. We can only try to reduce it but it's nearly impossible to stop it completely.

You have to try and make people want to pirate it less, something that DRM won't achieve.
If I recall correctly, the humble indie bundle made quite a lot of money, despite that some pirated it or just paid 1 cent. Many paid a good sum as far as I remember.

It seem a bit hypocritical to call this theft and the other not. I'm still calling in copyright infringement, indie or not. But imo, it's morally worse than pirating from big publishers. At least, that's how I see it.
Another thing, the indie bundle is far, far more worth than 1 cent and I don't really see much of a moral difference whether you pay 1 cent or pirate it. Yes, they allow it, doesn't mean that you have to take advantage of it.

Love the new intro/outro.
I've been saying it since the first video, those bastards that pirated HiB deserve whatever they get. It's mind-boggling how cheap/evil they are.

Ziggy:
humbel indie bundle: DON'T PAY ONE CENT. they will lose money

What if I have 20 friends, and I like 5 of those friends more of the others, so I buy 15 $.01 bundles (and always make sure it goes to humble bundle) and 5 $20 bundles? I would love for them to add that option, it makes me feel so bad every time I see that "Need money for food" picture >.<
But yeah, you're right, don't pay $.01, they deserve more.

Qitz:

Ziggy:
humbel indie bundle: DON'T PAY ONE CENT. they will lose money

Unfortunate but true. Just paying one cent is worse than pirating the game because paying them the one cent loses them money while pirating it doesn't.

Still a shit thing to do? Of course, but the lesser of two evils in the Humble Indie Bundle's case.

Though this just goes to show you that people will use any backwards ass logic they can get their hands on to validate piracy. Even if the games are good, cheap and DRM free they'll still come up with some BS excuse about why they NEED the game but can't be asked to pay for it.

Actually the bundle was pirated and downloaded from their own servers so they did lose 1 cent less from people paying 1 cent. One of those working with it actually asked people to be kind enough to find a torrent and get the games that way rather than wasting their server capacity while ripping them off at the same time.

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