Jimquisition: When Piracy Becomes Theft

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I think they should add a "thank God" button below the video.

Hilarious and original as always.

All hail the coming of the Superking, Jim Sterling!

Love the new intro, love the episode and its message. Here is a little something to think about for everyone reading this post: Guess what percentage of those "pedophile burglars" also pirate AAA games?

Lono Shrugged:
Ohhhh After Effects.

SOMEONE'S rolling in money

or they y'know pirated it...

People who pay for Adobe make me so sad.

I bought that Software years back and it crashes like a mofo. I went to college to use a revision that was 2 full numbers up and it STILL CRASHED LIKE A MOFO.

Worse still they haven't invented any kind of auto save yet.

REALLY?! It's hundreds of dollars for the cheaperst version, how the hell is office surpassing this product?! I got office for free just by working at Best Buy...

I can't stand adobe, they are so lazy and seem to think a few new filters will make up for a level of stability that cannot justify the price tag.

As for the video, I do agree those people are assholes. WoG was quite fun, bought it twice. Since it wasn't cross platform :P.

FelixG:
If I steal your bike, then you lose a bike. That's theft.
If you copy one of your games, you lose nothing. See the difference?

Piracy is theft, simply because you take a game/video/cd without paying for it. You are using the service that they provided and you are not paying for it. I don't care how you spin it, you are pirating.
You are a pedophile burglar, if you pirate games.

Thanks for that term Jim, I am going to be using it a lot.

There isn't a very coherent argument here for why piracy is theft under some circumstances. There's a (good) argument for why piracy of a certain sort is bad, but that doesn't make it theft. It may be as bad as theft, but it's not actually theft.

This isn't just a legalistic point. Having excised the unhelpful terminology of stealing from the piracy debate there's no reason to drag it back in. Sometimes piracy is bad, sometimes it's not; but it's never stealing, and calling it that only serves to confuse the issue.

theultimateend:

Lono Shrugged:
Ohhhh After Effects.

SOMEONE'S rolling in money

or they y'know pirated it...

People who pay for Adobe make me so sad.

I bought that Software years back and it crashes like a mofo. I went to college to use a revision that was 2 full numbers up and it STILL CRASHED LIKE A MOFO.

Worse still they haven't invented any kind of auto save yet.

REALLY?! It's hundreds of dollars for the cheaperst version, how the hell is office surpassing this product?! I got office for free just by working at Best Buy...

I can't stand adobe, they are so lazy and seem to think a few new filters will make up for a level of stability that cannot justify the price tag.

As for the video, I do agree those people are assholes. WoG was quite fun, bought it twice. Since it wasn't cross platform :P.

I use it professionally, paid for it and it has paid for itself many times over. Most (if not all) Adobe programs have a programmable auto-save function going back to at least CS2. So that problem is fixed. Premiere Pro CS 5 has added native support for DSLR cameras which is a fucking godsend if you shoot DSLR and I know Final Cut Pro trainers looking to swap over. I make a living thanks to Adobe's software line and yeah it's not without bugs and problems but it's an amazing program for people in video production and I would be pretty jobless without it.

Jim, perhaps you should take the Oprah approach; become the most powerful person via your charisma and influence, and not be constrained by government politics.

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it's a good idea to draw lines. What makes a game "indie", "cheap", or "consumer-friendly" enough to warrant protection from piracy?

Further, what makes a game "mainstream", "expensive", or "consumer-unfriendly" enough to warrant piracy?

Who defines those boundaries?

I view it like anything else:

If you object to a product for any reason; quality, production source, price, "consumer-friendliness", content, or anything else: don't buy it. The end.

You have no inherent "right" to consume it. There is no justification for consuming it without purchasing it, and it doesn't matter if you call it "Piracy", "Theft", "Copyright Infringement", or "Pedophile Burglary".

Did anyone else think he would do a video about people selling pirated software for their own profit in other countries?

Crono1973:

Furrama:

Crono1973:
Sorry No, Indie devs are not special and copyright infringement doesn't become theft when it involves an Indie developer.

In fact, I place a lower value on Indie games because most are ugly, simplistic and repetitive. I don't pirate them though, I watch them on YouTube and decide to skip them. I guess this show was required though, given the anti-piracy stance of the escapist.

BTW, when I hear people talk about castrating and torturing people (I guess only males are pirates), I assume they are not to be taken seriously.

So as long as the whores are usually ugly and stupid it's okay to treat them like crap? I mean, YOU don't treat them like crap, but it's OKAY if others do because they're ugly... and stupid. Who cares about them? It's not like they're PEOPLE or anything.

Indy games need player support far more than a big publisher would. They're hungry little people holding up cardboard signs and trying to do the best with what they have while standing next to Mr. Bigg Moneybags and his neon signs and slave labor. This is a morality issue, and there comes a point when the line between copyright infringement and theft blur, and the term "intellectual rape" can be applied.

That guy. Don't be that guy.

I said Indie devs are not special, that means that they shouldn't be treated any better or worse than you would treat big publishers.

What was your retarded ass point again?

It was lost on you apparently.

I'd vote for a jim sterling presidency, if just for the accent alone.

Then again, I voted for cthulu in the last election, so i might not be the best supporter.

lord.jeff:
Piracy discussions are the only time I see the "that's not technically theft" come up, no one bothers to correct anyone when they says "That game stole it's story from..." there's no loss of the original product so it can't be theft yet no one seems to care unless it's misused in regards to piracy.

That's because nobody in those other discussions are trying to say that it literally means a property crime.

If I condemned people who 'steal a kiss' as being completely equivalent to someone who smashes into a candy store and runs off with bags of Hershey's Kisses, then I should hope someone would say say 'Technically, that's not theft. It just means to sneak up on your lover and give them a smooch.', because it's important that people realize the distinction.

'Piracy' discussions are the only time that people genuinely equivocate those two meanings, forcing people to have to explain that they're not the same thing.

The whole "I'm not stealing because I'm making a copy" is sort of questionable as well.
When you have a product on a shelf in a store, and you copy it but the physical shelf copy remains, then that's one thing. But if the product never HAS a physical copy, then, how is copying it not stealing?

People who buy the game, pay for a copy.
People who pirate the game, get a copy without paying for it.

The two get the same thing, just that one didn't pay for it. Sounds like stealing to me.

empirialtank:
I'd vote for a jim sterling presidency, if just for the accent alone.

Then again, I voted for cthulu in the last election, so i might not be the best supporter.

The accent suggests he can't be president even if people did vote for him. You can't be foreign-born and become the president, at least under current laws.

MonkeyPunch:

Dexter111:
Sorry dude, but there's no "middle ground" and it's still not "theft"... you can't apply the concept of "theft" to intellectual goods, it may be cockmongery or dickery, douchebaggery or something like that and I always make sure to pay at least 5€ even if I already own most games, but it's still not theft.

I know I will regret asking, but can't it be seen as theft?

So lets say you pirate the indy game Aquaria.

That game costs 20 Euro.
You have the game in your possession because you downloaded via a torrent instead of the official site.
So 1 copy on your HD, but no money in Bit Blot's account.
For every copy of Aquaria on someone's HD Bit Blot should have the equivalent value on their bank account. 20 copies sold should equate to 20 times the games value on Bit Blot's account.
(edit- also just thought about from the aspect of: if you are in possession of something you didn't legally acquire, surely you must have stolen it?)

They are missing 20 Euro because in theory if you have Aquaria on your HD Bit Blot should be up 20 Euro. But they aren't - they've been robbed of that payment.

Aside from me actually buying Aquaria and never playing it so far along with the other half of my games on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/Dexter111/games/?tab=all&sort=name (Has played 132/276 games.) it wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever as any pirated copy still doesn't equal a lost sale, quite the opposite it might create new ones because people liked it so much and want to pay for it or they recommend said game to their friends.
If I let a friend play Aquaria through my Steam account that doesn't mean that is a "lost sale" either as the likelihood of him getting it was very low to start with, if I give it a bad review and 3 people on my friends list decide not to buy it because of that even though they've been eyeing it I haven't generated "less sales" either. So, no... noone would have robbed anyone of anything.

mjc0961:
Hell, I'd vote for Jim to be president. I'd vote for him long before I'd vote for Gingrich or Romney.

Dexter111:
Sorry dude, but there's no "middle ground" and it's still not "theft"... you can't apply the concept of "theft" to intellectual goods, it may be cockmongery or dickery, douchebaggery or something like that and I always make sure to pay at least 5€ even if I already own most games, but it's still not theft.

WRONG. Like he said in the video and I'll repeat, this isn't about using proper legal terms. We already know that it's technically not theft, we just don't care. It's about calling people who take things without paying for them what we always call people who take things without paying for them: THIEVES. BURGLARS. ROBBERS. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't care what they'd be legally charged with if charges were brought upon them. I don't care that the "original copy" is still there. They took something without paying for it. THEY STOLE IT. They're dirty thieves. And like the video says, in the event when they stole a game that was already dirt cheap, contains no DRM, and 100% of the sale money goes to the people who created the game, they deserve to be treated with the same scorn we would treat a person who commits actual burglary and would actually be charged in a court of law as a thief.

It's just sad that so many people are missing the point of the video so they can sit here and defend these bastards who would take even cheap, DRM free indie games without paying for them with this nonsense about proper legal terms that nobody should care about. These people are truly villains. There is no justification for their actions. Stop trying to make them sound more dignified and start hurling as much shame as possible at them.

Well, the only thing anyone calling someone a thief, burglar or robber who isn't one sounds like is borderline stupidity, also demagoguery and cheap sensationalism and makes me ignore someones opinion to start with as they don't have a point to stand on.
The other thing I think about hearing it is this video:

Aside from that, "these people" likely aren't truly villains but kids without a PayPal account or credit card as I've mentioned before.

I admit i once pirated indie but I felt bad and bought them cause they were so damn good and was on steam so cost sweet FA, now I don't waste the bandwidth pirating as indie games are of such high caliber I skip any chance for the guilt and just buy them (currently loving Trine 2). Ubisoft though can go die in a hole for always online DRM and EA for its obsession with online passes. What annoys me most is dedicated multiplayer games though where I have to buy a copy for each member of my family, when they cost $40+ this quickly becomes very expensive and unaffordable.

Sweet new intro!
I agree with you, but taking the word Pedophile out of context like that is not cool.
Seriously, think of a small child that has been sexually abused and is scarred for life. Is that equivalent to you to a financial matter? If yes, that's a sad materialist sentiment you have... If so think again, and think hard.

I both disagree and agree with Jim this time. I agree with the idea that it might be legally considered copyright infringement, but calling it theft isn't really wrong because that's basically what's going on. Terminology doesn't really matter. In this case it really just makes it sound more complex then it is; a large percentage of the group just downloads the cracks to play games for free instead of paying for them.

What I disagree is that it only applies to indie games without DRM. Even just indie games in general. DRM isn't an excuse to pirate to me. Yes, indie games are cheaper and normally have small development teams that need to get money to, you know, eat. People pirating the Humble Bundles are especially guilty of taking advantage of situations.

But how is that different then AAA games? The cost of the games is higher, but the number of people working on it and time is takes normally is too. That just means there are more people who's financial future rely on the game selling well. There are exceptions of course. The big picture is what I'm talking about though. Larger games need to sell just as much as smaller ones to keep the people making them employed. It's not like the money for more games just appears.

And not liking the publisher isn't an excuse either. I don't like EA. I think they only make game companies worse overall. But that doesn't mean pirating Mass Effect 3, which has multiple teams working on it and represents a lot of money, is suddenly alright. Mass Effect 3 will still sell like hotcakes. Mainly because it's a series a lot of people know and it's being released on every major console that could possibly handle it. But that isn't the case for some games.

I don't know. I just felt like saying something because I'm bored. It's pointless in the end because people who do it will continue thinking what they're doing isn't wrong and people who are adamant it is won't change their mind. So meh.

All these people saying that "piracy isn't theft" because it's not actually stealing anything just come across as ignorant pedophile burglars to me. If you do a runner on a taxi, or if you don't pay for a trip to the doctor, you aren't really stealing anything either, just their time. But that time is still worth something- these people need to be paid for providing a service.

These indi developers are people who are giving up their time, usually hundreds if not thousands of manhours to create games. You can steal services just as much as you can steal an object.

rankfx:
All these people saying that "piracy isn't theft" because it's not actually stealing anything just come across as ignorant pedophile burglars to me. If you do a runner on a taxi, or if you don't pay for a trip to the doctor, you aren't really stealing anything either, just their time. But that time is still worth something- these people need to be paid for providing a service.

These indi developers are people who are giving up their time, usually hundreds if not thousands of manhours to create games. You can steal services just as much as you can steal an object.

Anyone who thinks that doing a runner from a taxi is theft is just as wrong as the people who think piracy is theft. You can't steal a service.

rankfx:
All these people saying that "piracy isn't theft" because it's not actually stealing anything just come across as ignorant pedophile burglars to me. If you do a runner on a taxi, or if you don't pay for a trip to the doctor, you aren't really stealing anything either, just their time. But that time is still worth something- these people need to be paid for providing a service.

These indi developers are people who are giving up their time, usually hundreds if not thousands of manhours to create games. You can steal services just as much as you can steal an object.

Here's an opinion sandwich. Idiots are the bread :D The actual debate is the meat and cheese there in the middle :D

#1: Copying is not theft, therefore copying is fine! <-- Wrong. The way you define 'theft' doesn't change whether something is right or wrong.
#2: Copying is or is not theft but the semantics don't affect the morality of copying. Copying is still wrong even if it's not theft. <-- Tasty debate goodness
#3: Copying is or is not theft but the semantics don't affect the morality of copying. Copying is still fine even if people choose to use the word 'theft' to describe it. <-- Tasty debate goodness
#4: Copying is theft, therefore copying is evil! <-- Wrong. The way you define 'theft' doesn't change whether something is right or wrong.

People who say, "I can just pirate it" have no fucking clue how much of an asshole they are being.

Terminate421:
People who say, "I can just pirate it" have no fucking clue how much of an asshole they are being.

I agree! It's so annoying!

I just want to shake these jerks and say "It's not 'piracy' it's copyright infringement! Piracy is a moral abomination, copying things is wonderful and natural!"

I feel your pain.

Lono Shrugged:

theultimateend:

Lono Shrugged:
Ohhhh After Effects.

SOMEONE'S rolling in money

or they y'know pirated it...

People who pay for Adobe make me so sad.

I bought that Software years back and it crashes like a mofo. I went to college to use a revision that was 2 full numbers up and it STILL CRASHED LIKE A MOFO.

Worse still they haven't invented any kind of auto save yet.

REALLY?! It's hundreds of dollars for the cheaperst version, how the hell is office surpassing this product?! I got office for free just by working at Best Buy...

I can't stand adobe, they are so lazy and seem to think a few new filters will make up for a level of stability that cannot justify the price tag.

As for the video, I do agree those people are assholes. WoG was quite fun, bought it twice. Since it wasn't cross platform :P.

I use it professionally, paid for it and it has paid for itself many times over. Most (if not all) Adobe programs have a programmable auto-save function going back to at least CS2. So that problem is fixed. Premiere Pro CS 5 has added native support for DSLR cameras which is a fucking godsend if you shoot DSLR and I know Final Cut Pro trainers looking to swap over. I make a living thanks to Adobe's software line and yeah it's not without bugs and problems but it's an amazing program for people in video production and I would be pretty jobless without it.

I'd be interested if you could show me where that autosave is. I know Western Washington University would thank you since nobody in the art department knows of any such thing.

dbenoy:

Terminate421:
People who say, "I can just pirate it" have no fucking clue how much of an asshole they are being.

I agree! It's so annoying!

I just want to shake these jerks and say "It's not 'piracy' it's copyright infringement! Piracy is a moral abomination, copying things is wonderful and natural!"

I feel your pain.

Piracy involves a boat, weapons, and another boat usually.

The fact that they use the word for file sharing (illegal or not) has always felt silly to me.

Like changing the name of jaywalking to "rape" to try and make it sound much more horrible than it is.

I'd prefer folks bought their stuff, but when people call it piracy it really feels like the debate has fallen apart before it even began.

i vote jim for president of the usa, so i can sit back in the uk and watch what madness occurs with popcorn in hand

it's a win-win scenario.

If anyone hasn't said it yet, I'll say it now and agree with them;

Anyone feel like Playstation Plus is the same as Piracy?

"I get games for free that others have to pay for."

Sounds like Piracy to me, it's only ok because Sony gets a small fee from the tarts that subscribe to it.

I would assume most pirate sites don't even ask you for money to do the same thing.

theultimateend:
As for the video, I do agree those people are assholes. WoG was quite fun, bought it twice. Since it wasn't cross platform :P.

If you're proud to pay for what you like so are others. Many would not get it if they did not got it for free first. I showed you proof of that before, it works for AAAs and indie games the exact same way.
Sad to say but not all indies are worth the price they ask for. The ones who asked for those who liked their games to donate always profited from this, actually. There are some who really are a bit stingy, but I don't hate them because at least they open up their horizons. They do not pay for everything they liked, but they are still pat of a trend that benefits creators.

So what is it that I missed and which keeps you unconvinced so ?

theultimateend:
SNIP

On the toolbar in Premiere and After Effects. EDIT-PREFERENCES-AUTOSAVE.

You can adjust how often, where and how many times it saves.

Saved my ass many times.

EDIT: I am kinda surprised that they never twigged the Auto-save function considering it's normally saved with project files, plus you need to manually specify it when you are setting up your project folders. Your media management must be in shambles.

Book me a flight to America and I will wrangle that media for you like a motherfucking digital cowboy.

And here I thought Sterling was a lost cause, then suddenly he makes this video. Thanks for it Jim, it was a much needed adition to your series about piracy.

Dexter111:
Btw. another article I read about this today: http://www.webpronews.com/paulo-coelho-on-sopa-pirate-everything-i%E2%80%99ve-ever-written-2012-02

For the love of God, DON'T pirate Paulo Coelho. His prose is coarse and the content is magic based self-help bland crap; given the option i would rather inhale the smoke of burning one of his works before reading them (and yeah, i read them before, painful).

He is, with Alejandro Jodorowsky, a overhyped, pseudo spiritual POS that sells illusions to desperate lost people.

Jim for president.
Pretty much agreed with everything he said. If you can't find a shred of decency within yourself to pay money for things like that and can't even realize that you're a worthless piece of shit, then the only appropriate reaction to that is sheer pity (due to said pirate being permanently brain-damaged)

I liked this series so far, but I have to draw the line here.

Piracy is too new and complex an issue to sacrifice semantic clarity for the sake of emotional impact. We need to speak precisely about these things as much as we need to speak loudly. Saying it's ok to call piracy theft, even while admitting it's factually incorrect, because it sets the right "tone," is dragging this debate into the same miserable tradition of rhetoric that US politics exists in. It's shameless alarmism, and a low, "ends justify the means" subversion of rational discourse.

If you need to equate piracy to an existing crime that has emotional weight for people, try vandalism or destruction of property. That's what piracy really does. It doesn't deprive the developer of the game, or their rights to the game, but it makes the developer's rights to the game less valuable overall because it no longer provides the same opportunity to make money that it did.

orangeapples:
Now all of that sounds good and all, but they seem to not have a grasp of the real world. Yes, developers are creating video games and other media because they enjoy creating these things, but in order to do that they will need to be able to survive. These people need food, shelter and adequate warmth. If developers had to get a job as well as make games they would not have enough time to do both. Certain creations are ideas and want to be exchanged freely, other creations are products and want to be exchanged for goods. People do not want to pay for ideology, but they will be willing to make donations.

Being at the mercy of your public's good will is part of being an entertainer. If you just pretend to be an entertainer and try to sell a bland "product" at a fixed priced because you just want to eat, you chose the wrong career.

I'm also very familiar with this debate, If you're interested in exchanging some views tell me and I'll PM you.

In conclusion: the world is full of dicks. The World of Goo situation was really sad because they went above and beyond the call of duty, making these incredibly easy for the consumer.

And seriously, who the hell pirates the Humble Indie Bundle?

It may not be "theft," but it still makes you one of the biggest douchebags on the internet.

And now I'm off to play my legally purchased copy of World of Goo.

Nope. Definition of theft cannot hinge upon whether not committing the act would help someone who needs it versus doesn't need it. Doesn't make sense.

Ariyura:

orangeapples:
snipped for length

I do have a question about your post. You say that importing is piracy? Can you explain that to me? How is it piracy when you've legally paid for it and the large shipping fees that come along with importing from another country.

I do not personally believe it is piracy. I believe it is a part of capitalism. You want a product so you purchase from a market that supplies it. It is more akin to black-market or bootlegging than actual piracy.

But the companies that lose out on the sale categorize it as piracy. For them, sharing, reselling, and importing are "piracy". They are all very different things, but companies use a blanket term to make them all "evil". I did my best to use the quotation marks on piracy in this sense. sorry if that didn't come across as I intended >_<

You're wrong Jim. There is no difference between pirating an indie game and pirating a game that is backed by a major corporation. Either way, you're still depriving people of money that they worked to earn.

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