Bob's rant about the comics industry is the main reason why I mostly read manga these days. Because manga series are almost always owned exclusively by their creators, you tend to get a lot more quality and original characters doing different (if sometimes weird) things. Even when American comics aren't the same corporate superheroes doing the same things over and over again, a lot of comic series have different authors and artists playing a game of musical chairs. This more often than not creates jarring shifts in style, quality and tone. And don't even get me started on series that get started and are never finished...

Ugh, prequels. I have always hated the vast majority of prequels. Most of the time they are not any good. I think it has something to do with it being kind of the equivalent of reading the end of a book first. It's fun till you know how/when/why the end comes. But, as Bob stated, people who hate on them will buy them.

Also, I personally liked Kingdom Come much better than Watchmen. It was some of the highest quality writing in comics. It wasn't meant to, nor did it come off as and attempt to replicate or copy watchmen. It was so popular in fact that for an indeterminate amount of time it was turned into the DCU actual future. I mean, I'm glad that money maker didn't work out. Knowing the future sucks and is counter intuitive.

for me part of the interest of watchmen was the mysterious past, and mysteries revealed are rarely as interesting as our imaginations made them, but i can see how these books could be good (staying out of rights argument)

and bob i saw the movie then read the comics and found both to be very entertaining, even the alternate end force the movie took. but again for me it was less about the end and more about the characters and the flashes of their past. and to me the movie did a good job with the general atmosphere and characters

I have a huge problem with the whole "if you won't buy comics from a corporation that screws creators over than there isn't much else" idea. I read tons of comics, none of which are from Marvel or DC. Image is my favorite company, and I read tons of comics from them, and other places like Dark Horse, IDW, Oni Press, and more. This makes me realize how shortsighted of a comic fan Bob seems to be, as I've noticed he rarely says anything good about comics, says nothing of non-Marvel/DC books, and just bitches about the dumb decisions Marvel and DC makes, like all of the more annoying comic fans, as opposed to using his outreach to actually promote good things about this bleeding industry.

It seems many people don't really know of Miracleman, Moore had established many of these concepts within this series before Watchmen, and before The Dark Knight Returns as well. Before Ronin, before Moore's own genre redefining work on Swamp Thing, before almost anything else there was Miracleman (or Marvelman) in 1982. If people are going to discuss the point at which "superheroes" "grew up" or became serious works of literature, I cannot see any other candidate than Miracleman personally. TDKR & Watchmen also deserve massive credit, previous posters have summed up the extent of that credit very effectively.

I don't personally see any problem with these Watchmen prequels, if they are done well, but it remains to be seen if they will be or not. It is quite a gamble to be taking with such an epic & monumental book as Watchmen.

What I see as a real shame is that DC didn't take the opportunity with the resignation of one of Alan Moore's nemesii, Paul Levitz to try & extend an olive branch to Moore. Why not give him everything that he wants & try to make piece with him? Giving Moore rights to the original Watchmen does not have to exclude DC's options to expand on the Watchmen universe as they are doing now. It would give a much deserved ownership of a work to the single most important writer in the field of modern comics. Comparing the characters Moore created for Watchmen to the ones he revamped them from is completely laughable. Like comparing Luke Skywalker to Flash Gordon, who was part of Lucas' inspiration for Star Wars.

The greatest tragedy for me, bar none, that came out of this long running war between Moore & DC executives is that Moore refused to work for DC after it.

It is a tragedy to me personally that I cannot get to enjoy Moore's work on Superman or Batman, or even more importantly, Swamp thing, and one of his many incredible creations, the incomparable John Constantine.

While Moore "swore" never to work for DC again, he did publish The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen & other titles with his friend Jim Lee after DC had bought Wildstorm & ABC comics from them. Perhaps if DC were to treat Moore with the respect that he deserves, he may come back into the fold one day & we will all be better off.

Although not everything Alan Moore creates is incredible, he is certainly one of the most incredible writers & creators ever to work in comics.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:
Firstly, TDKR came out before Watchmen. I don't understand how it can be considered in any way a 'knock-off' when Watchmen came out after TDKR did.

I'm aware that TDKR came out first. I said it was a precursor to the Watchmen knockoffs, because it suffers from the same flaws as those knockoffs: Trying to earn the label of "mature" by throwing Dark And Edgy setpieces in the reader's face.

Secondly, read this article.

Yes, yes, Miller managed to drag the mainstream American comics industry into the present day by employing techniques that European comics and even American indie comics had been using for decades. We owe him for forcing DC and subsequently Marvel to get with the program, though it probably would have happened before too long anyway.

Regardless of how you feel about how TDKR changed the way comics are percieved, there is absolutely no doubting that TDKR changed the way comics are made in absolutely fundamental ways, ways that Watchmen has never come close to achieving.

Because comics are only about technical specs and setpieces, who cares about that whole "storytelling" thing.

Agreed, I like the movie version better, WAY better, because it actually made sense! (MOVIE) That's why blue man's gotta go away, because the world hates him now, and I also love the cut out the newspaper stand, and the comic books... just because it's time saver, but they added the boy, and the newspaper stand old guy in the explosion, just so people who read the book knows that the source materials were not "forgotten", just left out because of time constrain... love the fights, and REALLY LOVE THAT TRAILER! yes, to me, the movie IS BETTER than the book, for it's devotion toward "true to source materials"!

Nicely put Moviebob, although that ending wasn't my problem with the Watchman film, for me the general tone was all off, Snyder's world was heavily stylised where as it would have had more impact if it were played for reals. For me the Watchman films was a series of little problems that added up to make an underwhelming film, and Snyder's direction didn't do much to improve matters, he is the new Joel Schumacher after all haha: http://gorillafilmmagazineblog.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/zack-snyder-is-the-new-joel-schumacher/

But yeah, I'm actually surprised it took them this long to start exploiting the Watchman series in this way. It's certainly a story that doesn't need to be added to, so it'll be a real shame if people go out and buy these new comics.

I haven't read comics since I was a kid (and even then it was mostly Spider-man and 2000AD) so I don't know what the industry is like at the moment, but it would be nice if people started coming up with new iconic heroes that better reflected a new generation, rather than holding onto characters that were created in the 30s...

By the way: DC has a new logo starting last month: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/01/13/dc-comics-gets-logo-here/

RoseArch:
Comic watchmen's ending: Makes sense
Movie's ending: Doesn't make sense.

And that's all I can say without going in to spoiler territory.

Given the amount of set-up necessary to pull off the comic's ending, I was actually okay with the movie's ending not making sense--or at least I could look the other way. The problem, for me, with the movie, was (aside from some of the truly awful acting and the jarringly awful score) how the characters were re-written (throughout the story and in the very end).

Perhaps I was taking something away from the story that no one else took from it, but most of the movie was so loyal to the comic--why suddenly make this small change that dramatically alters the entire message of the film?

With perhaps a slightly differing view I beat ya' to the punchline...

http://fourcolouralchemy.blogspot.com/

We even used some of the same imagery.

I think what bugs me is the most is two things.

1. That somehow this detracts from the original work. How? No one is pulling a Lucas and changing anything to do with the original and as I say, it stands by itself, no one is forcing anyone to buy it/accept it/acknowledge it as 'cannon'.

2. It's preventing the creators on these comics from creating 'new' work. How? The only one on there who might have trouble doing more than one book is JMS and he's still doing The Twelve (after how many years?). Point of fact these guys have been writing for DC and Marvel for a long time, how is that not the same as Before Watchmen? No one is saying they can't work on other things they've just been given an opportunity to play with someone else's cool toys.

Apologise I had to do the 'I agree' thing it made me double post somehow :)

Film ending was better as it was the big bluff to make humanity work together - i liked that he fooled the world. The book failed as it gave an obvious reason for humans to work together. Sounds vague....but don't want to spoiler it. Look it up on wikipedia if you want to know.

I say wait till the comics are out and read them. If they suck then bin them, if they are great then excellent. Fans are the worst people to get opinions from, like with Heath playing joker....all the bitching about that. If the movies people listened to fans their would be no Dark Knight movie and no Heath Joker.

Also Alan Moore can fuck off, he sold the writes to the characters so no point him moaning. If he hates DC then just self publish, but i guess he doesnt want to use his own money for that.

We dont need another Watchman, we just want another writer/artist to come up with the next new thing. Same with movies and music. They will come along eventually.

MovieBob:
There Will Never Be Another Watchmen

You may as well stop asking about it.

Watch Video

Mark "Wide"? You meant, Mark Waid with an "aid" right? Or is Neil Gaiman now Neil Guyman?

I read a quote by DC on this subject. It went along the lines of "A publisher's responsibility is to keep all their characters relevant," which is what is at the heart of all this fuss as I see it. It's a half finished statement that just seems to focus on current characters and reinventing them instead of shepherding new ideas and characters that readers may be able to enter into more freely.

The former is easier to market though and usually more profitable. It's also easier for writers and artist, who at this point are just writing and drawing official fan-comics. Not the worst thing you can do,especially for the artists, but if that's the backbone of your business plan you're never going to publish the next Watchmen.

I could state my opinions on why I felt the book ending, just in a scaring countries to work together sense, works better but would have dragged the film out, but this topic isn't really about that.

I would be perfectly happy with a Rorschach movie. Like Dark Knight but with less brooding and more murdering.

And they have a perfect setup. He was the only one who didn't quit when capes were disbanded. So what happened to him between that time and the start of the Watchmen story?

I'm still holding out for a movie or Game of Thrones quality series of this:

And really wouldn't Transmetropolitan make an awesome tv series if it had the budget and production level of Dr Who?

Vault101:

Calendor1:
.

arnt half of those owned my DC/Marvel anyway? like image?

I seem to be favour Vertigo (are they owned by DC?) , anyway after recently getting inot comics the state of the industry is somthing that I am now obligated to give a shit about....though I dont know much about it...its not good is it?

Wriggle Wyrm:
snip...

Ive been reading alot of comics latly, and only one has been about a superhero (spawn)

No, none of those are. DC has Vertigo and Marvel has Icon, but the ones I mentioned are completely separate companies. Image is a company that publishes creator-owned comics without taking part in any ownership of the characters. It is the most diverse and creator-friendly comic company there is, and they publish a wide range of genres. It's my favorite company. Image, IDW, Dark Horse, Oni Press, Archaia, and many others are examples of non-Marvel/DC related companies where you can find great, original comics.

Is Bob ever gonna talk about Vertigo in his Comics Are Weird?

"There. Are you satisfied? No? OK. COMICS ARE WEIRD!"

Then I was satisfied, so the whole episode was kind of a bonus.

I think there won't be anything else like Watchman because nowadays if a writer has a crazy new idea for a comic he'll publish it independently, or put it online, or both. Hell, Warren Ellis published Freakangels as a webcomic; it's no Watchman, but it's certainly pushing boundaries (let's try to put a graphic rape scene on a DC/Marvel comic to see if they're cool with it). While a freer venue for creators, it's also bound to create some fragmentation of the fan base, as usually only big fans will seek those out, while Watchman was just a regular mainstream comic that everyone knew about. There are no more Alan Moores nowadays pushing the mainstream, they all left.

DVS BSTrD:
It's not that they shouldn't make the prequels because it's Alan Moor's characters.
They shouldn't make the prequels because it's Watchmen.

I don't have this sort of reverent appreciation for Watchman, but I can tell it's a complete work that needs no further elaboration; in fact, any apparent gap it leaves behind is deliberate and meant to foster ambiguity. I know I won't be buying the prequels, and if more geeks had a smidgen of self control to not buy things they do not like being published we would be seeing a lot less money grabs such as these.

2 things
1: good comics, you have to check out Atomic Robo.
2: my opinion on watchmen ending, the books version was vastly Superior. here is a take that rarely comes up:

I cannot believe all of the people who are saying they like the movie ending better. The ending of the book is more jarring, more disorienting, more appropriate, more memorable, more thought out, and it works WAY better in regards to the characterization of Dr. Manhattan and Veidt.

Watchmen needs the giant squid. It just does. The movie ending is frankly terrible, and is an un-removable stain on an otherwise half way decent film. I could honestly write an entire term paper on why the ending should have been retained, But I am aware that this is just a comment section, and I personally find it obnoxious when I have to read 10 pages of information on why Knuckles the Echidna is "more rad" than Sonic the Hedgehog.

Tipsy Giant:
I thought the movie was great, but that the chump they hired to select the music picked every cliched track in the world, making important scenes seem comical, i'd love a version without them so I could edit in my own choices, couldn't be worse!

It's subjective of course, but I wouldn't use the word "cliched"... Instead, I'd say archetypal.

I think it would be a bad choice to choose deep cuts off of lesser known albums. The soundtrack was intended to evoke the era.

I'm also for the movie ending. I mean, the book ending relied on psychics existing, and being understood so well that their powers can just be duplicated and precisely tuned with science. This despite not a single psychic character appearing in the book aside from one line about an unknown self-proclaimed psychic corpse in the suplementary material between the chapters, and the whole point of the story thus far being that no one except Dr Manhattan has super powers. Which means the new ending made a lot more sense to me.

Though I'll admit the gory results in the book, affecting sidecharacters we knew, had a lot more impact than the clean movie version with character we don't know. What I don't get was why we didn't get to see it from the perspective of the first Night Owl. In the book, he was already dead, but that scene was cut from the movie. So he could have given us a character we knew and who, storywise, was supposed to die anyway, to make the ending more personal. Don't know why they didn't do that.