The Big Picture: Untransformed

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MovieBob:

Alright, responding to this is probably a mistake on my part but I've had about enough of this particular point - the Sucker Punch thing, I mean.

Firstly, there is a difference between a movie (or any other piece of art) being smart/stupid/meaningful/shallow and being GOOD or BAD (or "well-executed" or poorly-executed) in any one person's opinion. I don't "expect" everyone to call, "Sucker Punch" GOOD; but that it's NOT a "stupid" film - that it's actually slightly over-stuffed with IDEAS, meaning, layers of symbolism both thematic and visual, genuine imagination and actually attempts (with mixed results, to be sure) to actual SAY something is objectively provable simply by watching it... which I'll give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you did. It is, in as measurable a way as possible, a smarter movie than any of the Transformers films (which are OPENLY "about" as little as possible); to the point that there's really no discernable reason to compare them.

However, if you're looking for the "difference" between appreciating these two nothing-to-do-with-eachother films, it comes down to where the appreciation comes from. I can find you other legitimate reviews - positive and negative - of "Sucker Punch" aside from mine that found something intellectually engaging about the film. This is NOT as true for the "Transformers" films (though I'm sure a few can be found) whose most passionate defenders tend to come down on the side of "I just want to turn off my brain and watch the fireworks!" "not every movie has to be high-art!" or some variation thereof.

Sucker Punch has an interesting concept and ideas, but the film is too dumb to fully execute on said ideas. It intends to have meaning but Snyder (who has only make one good movie "Dawn of the Dead") is not a good enough filmmaker to fully broaden those ideas into a complete narrative.

But the truth is...film taste is subjective depending on age, mood, personality, and other circumstances. You have to accept the fact that just because someone does not enjoy the same things you enjoy (case in point Sucker Punch being one of the worst movies of the year IMHO) does not give you the right to downright insult them. Intelligence cannot be measured with taste. I know a lot of intelligent people who'd rather escape from their exhausting jobs and watch something mindless like a Transformers or a Fast Five over thought-provoking pieces that try to win Oscars.

I watched Men in Black just the other day. Excellent, compared to a lot of what we get these days.

Say what you like about how much the 90s sucked, a lot of good genre movies came from that period. It was a time just before studios went into overdrive with sequels and comic franchise plundering, where CGI hadn't quite replaced animatronics yet, and where making somekind of effort seemed to count.

Sure, it is largely a nostalgia filter, and I've already forgotten most of the bad movies, but look at the line up: Jurassic Park, Men in Black, Home Alone, Total Recall, The Mask, Something About Mary, Galaxy Quest. All good, solid stuff. And probably responsible for setting terrible trends.

Skunktrain:
Fun fact: "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" is the direct result of the first Transformers movie doing well, take from that what you will.

It is? , please explain further!
(Not that I don't belive you I'm just curious)

Vausch:

ZippyDSMlee:
I still do not know why he is harping on the green lantern it was not that bad all things considered.

Actually, it was. I don't think it was as terrible as Bob made it out to be, but it was pretty darn bad. I went into the movie fairly unbiased and had a friend with me that had never read a single comic and she hated it too. Yes, I knew who the Green Lanterns were, had a basic rundown of the story, and understood a lot of the lore, but I haven't gone through the entire history of the comics (yet) and was going to pick at them for not getting a character's hairstyle right.

And yes, it is understandable for different opinions, but there are times when a film can just be provably bad. This was one of them.

I tend to hate subpar films but I found GL to be ok at best the worest thing about it was it was draggy. It was hella better than Ghost rider/Batman 4(the one before bale)/Xmen 3/Spiderman 3(and reboot >> lulz),All the TF films,ect,ect,ect,ect,ect.

I just have seen far worse and far better.

MovieBob:

However, if you're looking for the "difference" between appreciating these two nothing-to-do-with-eachother films, it comes down to where the appreciation comes from. I can find you other legitimate reviews - positive and negative - of "Sucker Punch" aside from mine that found something intellectually engaging about the film. This is NOT as true for the "Transformers" films (though I'm sure a few can be found) whose most passionate defenders tend to come down on the side of "I just want to turn off my brain and watch the fireworks!" "not every movie has to be high-art!" or some variation thereof.

But I'm sure that even you like to "turn off your brain" and watch utter crap from time to time. Perhaps a more clear example would have been that Piranha movie you once mentioned liking; the one you admitted was trash but fun? Is there an appreciable difference between liking that trashy movie and liking Transformers? And would it be reasonable to generalise that people who like that piranha movie are also too dumb to be trusted with automobiles, despite you (a smart person) also enjoying that movie?

Whether or not you enjoy a movie "ironically", or "intellectually" or "explosiony", it all shows up the same in the ticket sales - you might find Sucker Punch full of compelling ideas, the guy next to you might have watched it purely for the costume designs. I don't see how it is reasonable for anyone to come along and call you a couple of cretins just for having those preferences.

Incidently, Transformers 3 was THE biggest movie in China last year. And most of them saw it dubbed into Chinese, so dialogue really isn't that important when making money. (watch any movie dubbed into Chinese it sounds AWFUL - bad lip sync, and voices don't fit any actor or situation at all)

jack583:
here's a tip for mr bay:
KEEP...
HUMANS...
OUT OF IT......

But how to make it relate-able to the masses!??!

Im PunkRex,
And thats bloody depressing...

imnotparanoid:

Skunktrain:
Fun fact: "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" is the direct result of the first Transformers movie doing well, take from that what you will.

It is? , please explain further!
(Not that I don't belive you I'm just curious)

Proberly to do with popularity with Hasbros older shows. Transformers does well as a movie, therefore a TV show gets made, Hasbro makes money, so try the same with another of their francises (in this case MLP), Lauren Faust offers after her Galaxy Girls proposal gets shot down (I hope that gets made some day) by Hasbro, Magic is made!

Welcome to Costco I love you

Arkvoodle:
The live-action films are far from the worst thing to ever happen to Transformers.

And the next movie (which I hope gets marketed as "Trans4Mers") is scheduled for two years from now. Two years is a VERY long time in Hollywood-Land. A lot of things can happen.

For example... in two years, maybe they could all come to their senses...

Seriously though... I don't care. Every movie that gets made pays someone. Not just big name actors and producers... but grips and gaffers and assistant camera operators. Greensmen, CG artists, craft service people, make up artists, and so on down the line are all middle class folks making a living, buying groceries, and paying mortgages because someone had the good idea to greenlight a project that has a good chance of turning a buck. I hope they never stop making (insert franchise of choice here) movies.

Fortunately, the film industry makes several hundred films a year, a few thousand globally, so if you hate Transformers (I know I do) you can choose another film you'll probably like.

But then there are the fans. I keep hearing people complain about Transformers not getting it right. What does that mean? It's obviously my opinion, but this is a trilogy of big budget FX spectaculars based on a low budget cartoon infomercial for cheap plastic children's toys from the 80s. What could have been done wrong? Just throw some robots on the screen... toss in some nationalism and a speech about our hope for peace, add a hot chick, and release.

And Bob... Shia Labouf (did I spell that even close to right?) didn't ruin Transformers. He did as good a job as anyone could do in a film made for adult men trapped in their nostalgic 12 year old minds. Hell, Liam Neeson is a brilliant actor, and there isn't a single frame in all of Phantom Menace where he manages to look a single CGI character in the eye.

Who cares? I'm gonna be watching the better movie playing in the next theater anyway. Now what I would care to hear a lot more about is the accounting and backroom dealing that guides Hollywood decisions. That stuff is fascinating.

Xman490:
What happened to making a trilogy, then not going back to it for 10 years or so? Are entertainment corporations so much more greedy now than they were 30 years ago?

Why?

What is the magic in the number three? Why should a franchise vanish for a decade after each "trilogy"?

And no... the entertainment industry isn't less or more greedy (assuming the act of running a for profit business means the same things as greed), but they are technically capable of doing things now that they could not do back then.

There is really no reason I can think of why we can't have a Batman movie every few years. If you enjoy them, that's more likely a good thing than a bad thing.

Remember folks... it isn't art vs. commerce. Art IS commerce.

I'm sure I'm going to get glares for this but, I liked the Transformers movies. ...The parts with the robots and fighting of course not for the story. But I'm sure that's where most of the complaints are for, the story. Oh well.

Most of the time, I'd be disgusted that another one of these wretched films is being made but for some reason I can't shake this feeling of schadenfreude. It's mostly directed at Michael Bay for getting typecast in a rut, at Hollywood for being forced to whore itself out even more to pay its bills and at the stupid masses that line up like pigs to wallow in this crap.

All I have to say is kudos to Bob for a great episode.

BrunDeign:
Bob you honestly can't want them to portray Hawkeye in the same way as he is in the comics. I mean look at that! How could you take that guy seriously?

I kinda agree, I feel like they should have put a mask on him at least though. oddly enough they've shifted comic Hawkeye to look more like the movie one anyway which is even more annoying.

This was so snotty and condescending it makes me want to give Bob a swirly just on general principle.

They're letting Michael Bay make another Transformers movie? No, no, no. Though it does explain why the Matrix didn't work last time.

THAT man lacks the touch to given that kind of power. So I will choose not to accept this aspect of reality. Bah-weep-Graaaaagnah wheep mini bong, there IS only one Transformers movie... Yes.

The question that once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own. And yet, how ironic...
...For I now find I have no choice at all.

What's amazing about Bob is that he still doesn't seem to understand the notion that a person's taste in films isn't necessarily indicative of the their intelligence or intellectual capabilities. To say otherwise and to use it as fact is incredibly ignorant. I do question someone's tastes if the legitimately enjoyed that last two Transformers films, but I'm not about to question how smart they are. One has very little, if anything, to do with the other. I can understand Bob's anger towards the fact that Transformers is as successful as they've been, but to marginalize people's intelligence because of it is downright stupid.

I choose to remain cautiously optimistic.

I still think the first Transformers was great, and captured the essence of the show and mythology as well as you could.

ZippyDSMlee:

Vausch:

ZippyDSMlee:
I still do not know why he is harping on the green lantern it was not that bad all things considered.

Actually, it was. I don't think it was as terrible as Bob made it out to be, but it was pretty darn bad. I went into the movie fairly unbiased and had a friend with me that had never read a single comic and she hated it too. Yes, I knew who the Green Lanterns were, had a basic rundown of the story, and understood a lot of the lore, but I haven't gone through the entire history of the comics (yet) and was going to pick at them for not getting a character's hairstyle right.

And yes, it is understandable for different opinions, but there are times when a film can just be provably bad. This was one of them.

I tend to hate subpar films but I found GL to be ok at best the worest thing about it was it was draggy. It was hella better than Ghost rider/Batman 4(the one before bale)/Xmen 3/Spiderman 3(and reboot >> lulz),All the TF films,ect,ect,ect,ect,ect.

I just have seen far worse and far better.

I'd have to say in terms of terrible, it's much worse than Spiderman 3 (I liked it, I know the flaws and what was missed out on, but I hold it much higher than other "bad" superhero movies) and I'd put GL about on par with the 90s Captain America. See, the biggest problems I had with it were what they did to Parallax, they never expound upon the rings' weakness to yellow, the CGI is very sub-par, the entire movie looks like it has a green film over it, we never find out what happened to Amanda Waller, they let Hal keep the most powerful weapon in the universe after quitting the GL corps, Sinestro has NO REASON to take the yellow ring (you can't even say it's because he wants power, that is NEVER given any foreshadowing and reason), and as an added kick to the teeth the movie is way too loud at the "ABLOOGY WOOGY WOO" moments. I'm not even talking like the theatre was too loud, it had to be the sound in the movie itself because it was just as bad when I saw it at home.

Respect the material???

BWAHAHAHAHA!

It's Transformers! A weekday afternoon cartoon/toy product line!

"The person is great, but People [as a group] are dumb..."

Our best scientists are still searching for a solution to that problem. So untill one is found, I propose that all people wait till the critics give it a verdict before going to see it. That way, they'll not get as much income from people trying to find out for themselves if it's good.

Or we could all mob iTunes with purchase orders for Scot Pilgrim at the same time until they get the money they deserve... 'cause, you know, numbers can sway the favor.

As much as I find myself agreeing with Moviebob, I am dead tired of this "Marching Morons"/"Idiocracy"/"Brave New World" us versus them crap.
I know that it's easy to look at "the masses" and make these big lump generalizations.
I know that it makes the crap parts of society easier to explain and therefore easier to handle.
I know that it makes it feel better to have un-popular opinions or be a fan of a niche genre, or "someone with a brain" (however you choose to define that last one)
but the world is god-damn complicated and the explanations that DO exist aren't always the ones that leave you feeling like your a member of the Brotherhood of Evil God Damn Mutants.
Entertainment is subjective, and what you get is what you get.
Can entertainment be criticized then? Yes, and as well it should be, but that doesn't mean you get to create some kind of BS narrative about "leaders" and "followers" or "idiot nation" or whatever.
The only real reason to do it, is because it FEELS good and it makes things easier to swallow, when the real problem isn't figuring out how to swallow something, but to figure how to not swallow it in the first place.

"Steppenwolf" > "Brave New World"
Any day

I was expecting a terrible movie for the third one and I was right. At least it wasn't as bad as the second one, did that movie even have a plot? Oh well, I'll probably just not bother watching the 4th.

Also that Rock movie sounds awful, I you would have to pay me to watch that and I bill out at $125 an hour.

*Pauses the video right at the start.*

Okay, so since this is about transformers, Movie Bob is inevitably going to make some joke that a dozen or so people are going to take the wrong way, take personally, and complain about on the forum because they feel as though he attacked them personally. Usually a sure sign that what he said really hit a nerve.

*Pauses the video at 1:42*

Oh heck no, he just used the word nimrod. He is now officially given the forum all it needs to hate and slander his name again, although every single one of these people will likely come back to see his videos next week, the week after, and likely all the way up to his next transformers review where we can all do this same chant and dance one more time and I can make yet another forum post like this, one more time.

Let's see the lineup.

Kanatatsu:
This was so snotty and condescending it makes me want to give Bob a swirly just on general principle.

Casual Shinji:
Way to contradict yourself... again. *points to The Phantom Menace episode*

Oh, and nice one on insulting the fans of these movies... again.

Seriously, Bob; Grow up.

FelixG:
Wow, bob insulting people who happen to not agree with him.

If I didn't know better I would think he was an average forum goer!

anthony87:
Christ Bob, rein in the fucking elitism a bit would you?

Jimmybobjr:
Im hating Bob More and more every single episode he does.

I mean, god. Sucessful movies are sucessful for a reason, man.

And there you have it. I guess Movie Bob got it spot on when he said, "Sometimes you really can see these things coming."

Vausch:

ZippyDSMlee:

Vausch:

Actually, it was. I don't think it was as terrible as Bob made it out to be, but it was pretty darn bad. I went into the movie fairly unbiased and had a friend with me that had never read a single comic and she hated it too. Yes, I knew who the Green Lanterns were, had a basic rundown of the story, and understood a lot of the lore, but I haven't gone through the entire history of the comics (yet) and was going to pick at them for not getting a character's hairstyle right.

And yes, it is understandable for different opinions, but there are times when a film can just be provably bad. This was one of them.

I tend to hate subpar films but I found GL to be ok at best the worest thing about it was it was draggy. It was hella better than Ghost rider/Batman 4(the one before bale)/Xmen 3/Spiderman 3(and reboot >> lulz),All the TF films,ect,ect,ect,ect,ect.

I just have seen far worse and far better.

I'd have to say in terms of terrible, it's much worse than Spiderman 3 (I liked it, I know the flaws and what was missed out on, but I hold it much higher than other "bad" superhero movies) and I'd put GL about on par with the 90s Captain America. See, the biggest problems I had with it were what they did to Parallax, they never expound upon the rings' weakness to yellow, the CGI is very sub-par, the entire movie looks like it has a green film over it, we never find out what happened to Amanda Waller, they let Hal keep the most powerful weapon in the universe after quitting the GL corps, Sinestro has NO REASON to take the yellow ring (you can't even say it's because he wants power, that is NEVER given any foreshadowing and reason), and as an added kick to the teeth the movie is way too loud at the "ABLOOGY WOOGY WOO" moments. I'm not even talking like the theatre was too loud, it had to be the sound in the movie itself because it was just as bad when I saw it at home.

I saw the both bad CA films and yet say that GL is simply not that bad, now the Xmen films treated the lore worse IMO but were a tad better paced but all in all I could stand GL more.

I dunno, if I cared for the content that much seeing how I have only seen the first Transformers movie, but anything linking Idiocracy and MIB is worth watching!

Jimmybobjr:
Im hating Bob More and more every single episode he does.

I mean, god. Sucessful movies are sucessful for a reason, man.

I just go with it. Like he's said before, he now watches movies as a job rather than for fun. And for some reason I feel like he's becoming the type of critic he's hated. And for some reason I feel like him and Jim have switched places. Where the Jimquisition has become at least somewhat thoughtful. MovieBob is becoming a person who is beating a dead horse of "I disliked this movie, they did it wrong imo, so now I'm just going to keep beating the horse."

On the other side of the coin, Yahtzee said if you like something then nothing he (or anyone else) can say will remove you from your idea of if you liked the film or not. Unless there is a niggling little doubt in the back of your head that you do not like it as much as you think you do.

Man that Captain America costume is meh. The one from First Avenger was great but that is pretty terrible.

SadakoMoose:
As much as I find myself agreeing with Moviebob, I am dead tired of this "Marching Morons"/"Idiocracy"/"Brave New World" us versus them crap.
I know that it's easy to look at "the masses" and make these big lump generalizations.
I know that it makes the crap parts of society easier to explain and therefore easier to handle.
I know that it makes it feel better to have un-popular opinions or be a fan of a niche genre, or "someone with a brain" (however you choose to define that last one)
but the world is god-damn complicated and the explanations that DO exist aren't always the ones that leave you feeling like your a member of the Brotherhood of Evil God Damn Mutants.
Entertainment is subjective, and what you get is what you get.
Can entertainment be criticized then? Yes, and as well it should be, but that doesn't mean you get to create some kind of BS narrative about "leaders" and "followers" or "idiot nation" or whatever.
The only real reason to do it, is because it FEELS good and it makes things easier to swallow, when the real problem isn't figuring out how to swallow something, but to figure how to not swallow it in the first place.

"Steppenwolf" > "Brave New World"
Any day

While the masses might not nessacarily be an idiocracy, the fact remains that big movie companies are now choosing the safe route of "Let's appeal to everybody". All while completely forgeting the words of wisdom: "those that try to pander to all, satisfy none"... or something to that effect, wherever I heard that line has probably twisted it a few times first.

And so... We're back where we started. And now caught up in a serious line of thought, I must propose a real 'solution'.

Hollywood should go back and take their media class again. It probably comes under "Audience", as in "know your audience" or "specific audience". In which my high school media teacher would say "the more specific the audience the better".

If it's not under "Audience", then I think there's probably something called "Targeted Marketing"; And wether that exists or not, Hollywood seems to ignore it.

Moviebob, can we please get away from movies you don't like.

The real interesting part of this segment was the idea that Michael Bay is working on Transformers to help green light another movie idea. I never knew future movies were traded like commodities between a director's wants and what companies want.

Everything else about why people who like such movies are idiots is just childish and doesn't actually make an argument. Look at the Green Lantern review, you talked about what about the film was bad, i.e. bad actors selection, bad special effects, and so on. Now listen to your review of Transformers. You're calling the moviegoers of such films idiots. I think you never should have reviewed Transformers 2 and 3 because your complaints are the same for both movies and they devolve into ad-hominums toward the audience without really addressing the film.

If you don't like the film, REVIEW SOMETHING ELSE!

Your Star Wars review asked fans to move on and quick making such a big deal over the films-
physician, heal thyself.

If you think there are better movies coming out than Transformers then review those movies. Not everyone follows movie premiers and big budget movies like Transformers have the revenue to flood advertising.

i get what your saying bob, but i have to rage abit against you, the spiderman reboot is looking way! better than toby mcquaries one, the actor fits the more witty and geeky peter parker, its following the actual comics this time and by the looks of it, it shows an interesting twist, i dont get you sometimes.

marvel now has control over spiderman movies and wants to create a new one that everyone will enjoy, toby as spiderman wasn't witty or geeky really, just more serious and this new guy does the opposite but has an serious side to him aswell, so just drop the stupid idea of this reboot being bad

Bob, I like your stuff. You usually state your opinions so well. You usually have good reasoning. But here, you basically said "This movie is going to suck and anyone who likes it is dumb". I mean, dude. I liked thor. I liked captain america. I liked the hulk. But I also like 2 fast 2 furious. Does my enjoyment of that one movie make me dumb? I like explosions and car chases, but I don't think that's anything to base my IQ or knowledge on. You don't have to be mad anymore. It's over. You might have to sit through one more transformers. I'm sorry. But, taking it out on a huge rant against the mainstream audience and calling everyone who likes explosions dumb just was not the way to go here. There's being an intellectual with opinions, and then there's being a dick. You crossed the dick line with this episode here, bob. There was no reason whatsoever to stereotype and insult the entire mainstream movie audience. Yes, the loss of transformers to the mainstream audience is sad. But you know what? You still have the Avengers to look forward to. So stop whining and insulting people for no reason.

I've been saying "people are stupid" since before it was cool.

I guess I'm what you call an "Old School Pessimist".

OZITOMAI:
marvel now has control over spiderman movies and wants to create a new one that everyone will enjoy, toby as spiderman wasn't witty or geeky really, just more serious and this new guy does the opposite but has an serious side to him aswell, so just drop the stupid idea of this reboot being bad

Small correction: The OPPOSITE is actually true of most of that - Marvel DOESN'T have control over Spider-Man, and the point of making this movie is to ensure that they don't get to.

Prior to operating their own studio (and that studio becoming part of Disney) Marvel primarily "licensed" the movie-rights their properties to other studios - Sony owns the rights to Spider-Man, Fox owns the X-Men, etc.

Now that Marvel DOES have their own outfit working (which produces the Avengers-affiliated movies) they have also been exercising their contractual-ability to reclaim movie-rights to certain characters if the studios who initially licensed them are not willing or able to produce NEW movies with them within a certain timeframe, which is how they got The Hulk "back" from Universal. Part of the reason that Sony pressed ahead with a lower-budget/cheaper-actors remake of Spider-Man rather than keeping the original series going somehow is to make sure it happened quickly (and could spawn sequels quickly) enough to prevent Marvel Studios from taking the character back.

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