Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3: A Gay Erotic Love Story

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secretsantaone:

Rainboq:
You're misinterperting me, I'm saying that you can criticize, not complain. There is a difference, critizism tends to be more in depth and constructive.

Complaints are just negative criticism.

It could be the way your character moves when around other characters. Honestly, there's more to a character than just the dialogue.

What does that even mean? Awkwardly and repeatedly bumping into them from behind? It's pretty hard to show subtle body gestures in a shooting game with stock animations.

Complaints tend to be more general, whereas criticism tends to be more fine in its details. And it could be simply moving slower and pointing the camera at them more often, initiating dialogue with them more frequently and taking them on missions. Also, not every gay guy is constantly shoving his pelvis into people, regardless of what 90s TV says.

Rainboq:

dietpeachsnapple:
-It is not shallow to include homosexual relations in a game. It is shallow to include any sexual relations in a game.

That's a wee bit 'No True Scottsman'. Sexuality is a core component of human relations, and as such, sexuality can and should a part of more adult games that talk about the human condition, like Mass Effect. Hell, even TES and Fallout have sex, just heavily implied.

Yes, sexuality is a core component of human relations, but that doesn't mean it's handled well. I'd argue that sex in general has not been handled well or meaningfully in Mass Effect. I'd honestly prefer if it was just excised completely (though if it's in the games at all, I'd like them to be both straight and gay).

Avatar Roku:

Rainboq:

dietpeachsnapple:
-It is not shallow to include homosexual relations in a game. It is shallow to include any sexual relations in a game.

That's a wee bit 'No True Scottsman'. Sexuality is a core component of human relations, and as such, sexuality can and should a part of more adult games that talk about the human condition, like Mass Effect. Hell, even TES and Fallout have sex, just heavily implied.

Yes, sexuality is a core component of human relations, but that doesn't mean it's handled well. I'd argue that sex in general has not been handled well or meaningfully in Mass Effect. I'd honestly prefer if it was just excised completely (though if it's in the games at all, I'd like them to be both straight and gay).

Eh, the quality depends on what you've experienced before and your personal tastes, so that's hardly a good argument.

EDIT: Not that I'm saying your point isn't valid, some devs need to grow the hell up.

I was at a conference here in Canada, *Quebec City Cough* in September. EA sat on stage in a talkshow format filling us in on many fun upcoming titles. Mass Effect 3 became the topic, and partway through the chat, samesex relationships came up. and disappeared almost as quick as if they weren't quite sure if it was 'Appropriate' for us buisness folk to hear. And to an extent, some of us weren't mature enough, as neighboring table of fellow 'leaders' began what I call the small town groans.

I spoke up in the huge hall, at least loud enough for nearby ears saying 'um, thats what I WANT to know about'

You just made my millennium Jim. And possibly a fantasy or three. ahem. Thanks man!!!

/Salute

Beliyal:

secretsantaone:
Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see no reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

wow that is far better then anything i could ever think of kudos.

secretsantaone:

Beliyal:

secretsantaone:
Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see not reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

Which is pretty much what we have been discussing for the last 3/4 pages.

My argument is that the amount of effort adding a gay relationship into the series this late isn't worth it. The development time could have been better spent on additional general content, especially considering the small amount of development time (2 years, which is pretty tight for an RPG, especially one which prides itself on choices).

Not only that but a staple of good writing is foreshadowing and hinting. Making Shepard gay this late in the series seems much more like pandering rather than adding anything meaningful to the story.

Well, maybe you're right and it isn't worth it. However, people are happy about it and they look forward to this option. In my opinion, it is worth it. Not only because it adds new stuff to the game (however insignificant it may be), but it also means that it will be a high-budget popular game, incorporating this issue into its gameplay and story. Which is significant in the context of our real life society and culture. It will not be the first game to do this, but I am glad that it is done nonetheless. I believe it's worth it. You believe it's not. Neither of us knows how much resources and time they spent to make it happen, and what else they could've done with those resources and time. In my opinion, those resources and time are well spent (even if I may never chose that). However, we're now at the point of speculation and guessing (I doubt there's actual info called "How much people and money Bioware used to make two men have sex in Mass Effect 3?". Honestly, I can hardly imagine a conversation where they had to abandon doing some awesome mission because they had to code gay sex. But as I said; speculation and guessing).

I agree that foreshadowing and hinting would've made this better. And originally, homosexual option was in the game, which means, it was there in the writing, with all the foreshadowing and hinting. It would've been great if they left it in the game, and if we had this option from the start. Sadly, they had to remove it. There's still pieces of it left in the games though (such as this; it wasn't just the writing, even the voice acting was already done when they scraped the whole thing). In any case, I think we agree in general; I just live by the "better late than never" motto.

In my mind it's a little too late to worry about creating a "Gay ark" for Shepard. Two games where Shepard fallen in love with, connected with and romanced a member of the opposite gender (Or at least one Ken Doll with a women's body and the same gender) which makes the amount of time and effort to do the 180 decently isn't worthwhile.

That or it's just hamfisted in there as people shrug it off as Shepard approaches Male Steroid dude and says to his previous lovers; "I'm only interested in men." as they just shrug it off. Happens all the time, after-all

Edit: And then maybe some comments from homophobic humans/aliens (Who happen to be demonized in every possible way before-hand) which you must put down with a renegade bullet or a paragon parable

Rainboq:

secretsantaone:

Rainboq:
You're misinterperting me, I'm saying that you can criticize, not complain. There is a difference, critizism tends to be more in depth and constructive.

Complaints are just negative criticism.

It could be the way your character moves when around other characters. Honestly, there's more to a character than just the dialogue.

What does that even mean? Awkwardly and repeatedly bumping into them from behind? It's pretty hard to show subtle body gestures in a shooting game with stock animations.

Complaints tend to be more general, whereas criticism tends to be more fine in its details.

So why would I have the right to criticise but not complain if it's just a matter of focus?

And it could be simply moving slower and pointing the camera at them more often, initiating dialogue with them more frequently and taking them on missions.

Moving slow and bringing people into life threatening situations = being flirty. Alrighty then.

Also, not every gay guy is constantly shoving his pelvis into people, regardless of what 90s TV says.

Nice work trying to paint me as homophobic by taking it out of context. In context, I was pointing out how hard it would be to convey something as subtle as flirting using stock shooter animations.

Beliyal:

secretsantaone:
Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see no reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

Sure we could decide to go completely against the grain and completely flip from paragon to renegade and vice-verse in-between games if we want to. But where's the fun in that? The Mass Effect Trilogy was built around the fact that "Choices Matter". A decision made in the first game could have the potential to bite you in the ass in the third. Going from peace-loving diplomat to kill-crazy psychopath is going to make a character appear inconsistent and unstable. And if that's what the intention is, fine. Just be sure to recognize that.

I had never heard so many words for dick before...

goliath6711:

Beliyal:

secretsantaone:
Heaven forbid people use the comments section to discuss rather than mindlessly worship the content creator.

I love discussions. However, they too often turn into mindless arguments with all the same points being abused over and over.

Simply put, I see no reason to bash the option for homosexuality in ME3. They wanted to put it in the previous two games too, but unfortunately, we live in society where homosexuality is frowned upon. I don't think it's an issue with writing or retconing; it's an issue with our society. Finally, they decided to say "Fuck it, we're doing it this time" and put the option in the game, where it should have been since the beginning. Sure, it would've been better if it was there from the start (I'm sure some people were disappointed for not having a gay option), but they had to scrap that idea for various reasons. I am not bothered by it though, as I don't see it as that big of an issue. You can play a consistent Shepard and not change anything at all in all three games. You can also decide that it was boring to be paragon and choose to be renegade. Or change your face or your class. There's no viable explanation for that, in-game, and your squadmates are going to address you all the same even if you suddenly went from being a noble soldier to some full-biotic douche, or you had a complete face change surgery. So, why is homosexuality such a problem? If I can completely change the look and morals of my character, I should be able to suddenly decide that my Shepard wants man sex (or woman sex). Or I could just pretend that s/he was gay from the beginning and it was other people who were not, so I couldn't indulge in my desires. Or I could completely ignore this option and play as I played until now. I have three Shepards, neither of them is gay and neither of them will suddenly become gay, because I want to finish relationships with the ones I romanced in ME2. But I could make a new Shepard, romance no one in ME1 and 2 (or romance someone just because I can) and then romance my true and only love in ME3.

There, here's a discussion.

Sure we could decide to go completely against the grain and completely flip from paragon to renegade and vice-verse in-between games if we want to. But where's the fun in that? The Mass Effect Trilogy was built around the fact that "Choices Matter". A decision made in the first game could have the potential to bite you in the ass in the third. Going from peace-loving diplomat to kill-crazy psychopath is going to make a character appear inconsistent and unstable. And if that's what the intention is, fine. Just be sure to recognize that.

Well, I never changed my Shepard like that. I see no point in it really, I choose to play as a certain class, with a certain face and certain morality and I play it like that in both games. However, I guess some people don't find that fun. Personally, I'm not into creating a mentally unstable inconsistent character who changes completely between the games. But the homosexuality issue is not that hard to justify in-game. And if it is to some people, they can just ignore it completely. Even though, I believe they put it in because they could finally do so, without fearing people tearing them apart for it (although, that's questionable, since we're having these discussions). I mean, Fox tore them apart for even putting actual three seconds of sex in ME1. If homosexuality was an option too, it would've turned into a Crusade. But now, it's the end of the franchise, and whatever happens, it all ends so, even if people complain, it will not, in any way, mess up their work (and profit) and hamper next parts of the franchise (because there won't be next parts, at least not with Shepard. ... I suppose). And maybe it opens a path for new games with this option. In the beginning, there's always the biggest uproar. Each new try will provide less and less complaints, hopefully.

Beliyal:

Well, maybe you're right and it isn't worth it. However, people are happy about it and they look forward to this option. In my opinion, it is worth it. Not only because it adds new stuff to the game (however insignificant it may be), but it also means that it will be a high-budget popular game, incorporating this issue into its gameplay and story. Which is significant in the context of our real life society and culture. It will not be the first game to do this, but I am glad that it is done nonetheless. I believe it's worth it. You believe it's not. Neither of us knows how much resources and time they spent to make it happen, and what else they could've done with those resources and time. In my opinion, those resources and time are well spent (even if I may never chose that). However, we're now at the point of speculation and guessing (I doubt there's actual info called "How much people and money Bioware used to make two men have sex in Mass Effect 3?". Honestly, I can hardly imagine a conversation where they had to abandon doing some awesome mission because they had to code gay sex. But as I said; speculation and guessing).

I agree that foreshadowing and hinting would've made this better. And originally, homosexual option was in the game, which means, it was there in the writing, with all the foreshadowing and hinting. It would've been great if they left it in the game, and if we had this option from the start. Sadly, they had to remove it. There's still pieces of it left in the games though (such as this; it wasn't just the writing, even the voice acting was already done when they scraped the whole thing). In any case, I think we agree in general; I just live by the "better late than never" motto.

Is it really worth it if it's cheapened? Surely it would be better to finish off this franchise and start a new one with a homosexual character, rather than shoe-horning it in so late. To me it just seems patronising, like 'here's your token gay relationship, now leave us alone.'.

On the issue of resources spent, let's have a look different at what different elements go into a videogame.

Writing - Someone has to write the romance, which characters, how it progresses, how it ends up etc.

Dialogue writing - After that, the dialogue between the characters needs to be written including multiple speech trees and paths for different conversation choices

Voice acting - Then they need to get the voice actors in to record the lines and the sound editors to get it into a fit state

Animation - Someone needs to animate the romance scenes, including a presumably unique sex scene which uses no stock animations

Coding - After that, someone needs to actually put all the different elements into the game and not have it clash with everything else

Quality control - The romance needs to be played through multiple times under different conditions to make sure there are no bugs or errors

So probably quite a bit of time I'd imagine.

Jumping back to the age verification...
Yes I can see why it was placed there, but is this really any worse then having an MS-paint image of a guys dick on screen accompanied by Jim saying "Those fucking cunts" repeatedly?

Meh, it doesn't really matter, when I first saw the verifier I was thinking "So help me, if this verification is only here because of homosexuality I am fucking GONE" so I'm just glad there was a legitimate reason behind it.

secretsantaone:
Is it really worth it if it's cheapened? Surely it would be better to finish off this franchise and start a new one with a homosexual character, rather than shoe-horning it in so late. To me it just seems patronising, like 'here's your token gay relationship, now leave us alone.'.

On the issue of resources spent, let's have a look different at what different elements go into a videogame.

Writing - Someone has to write the romance, which characters, how it progresses, how it ends up etc.

Dialogue writing - After that, the dialogue between the characters needs to be written including multiple speech trees and paths for different conversation choices

Voice acting - Then they need to get the voice actors in to record the lines and the sound editors to get it into a fit state

Animation - Someone needs to animate the romance scenes, including a presumably unique sex scene which uses no stock animations

Coding - After that, someone needs to actually put all the different elements into the game and not have it clash with everything else

Quality control - The romance needs to be played through multiple times under different conditions to make sure there are no bugs or errors

So probably quite a bit of time I'd imagine.

Quite possible, and yet, even after all that time and resources spent, they decided to just remove it from the first game, for example. If it really cost them so much to do it, wouldn't it be wiser to let it there and use it, instead of removing it and virtually throwing money and time away? That seems like a huge loss to me, if it really is so costly (time and resources wise). But anyway, since ME3 is the final game, I think they really didn't cheap out on this and I can't picture them choosing between some essential story and/or gameplay part and gay romance option, and then choosing that they'll do the latter. Probably, they had the time and resources for both. Maybe I'm too trustworthy and/or naive though.

As if for it being cheapened; well, we can't tell yet, maybe it will truly look cheap and cheesy as hell. In which case, I will probably change my mind and conclude that they shouldn't have been trying to put it in if they couldn't have done it properly. But maybe it turns out to be good, "natural" and awesome. I guess we have to wait and see. And I'm sure some people won't mind even if it ends up being cheap.

Rainboq:

Avatar Roku:

Rainboq:
That's a wee bit 'No True Scottsman'. Sexuality is a core component of human relations, and as such, sexuality can and should a part of more adult games that talk about the human condition, like Mass Effect. Hell, even TES and Fallout have sex, just heavily implied.

Yes, sexuality is a core component of human relations, but that doesn't mean it's handled well. I'd argue that sex in general has not been handled well or meaningfully in Mass Effect. I'd honestly prefer if it was just excised completely (though if it's in the games at all, I'd like them to be both straight and gay).

Eh, the quality depends on what you've experienced before and your personal tastes, so that's hardly a good argument.

EDIT: Not that I'm saying your point isn't valid, some devs need to grow the hell up.

I hear you, I suppose it is pretty subjective. For that matter, Bioware handled it better than most devs (*glares at Team Ninja*). Hell, some of the romances actually were quite well written (I never romanced her, but I'm told Jack's was good, with it being cheap sex like she was expecting with you being renegade, and a meaningful relationship if paragon). It's just that I feel that they were all rather tacked on, secondary or even tertiary compared to the main parts of the games (EDIT: TO say nothing of Kelly Chambers *rage*), to the extent that they were never really given the attention they deserved. In a way, that's one reason I find this whole controversy weird; it's such a secondary part of the game.

How was that deserving of an age verification? So crudely drawn penises are fine but the line is drawn at reading aloud slash fic?

*slow clapping*

We are in the presence of a master satirist. Oh and that filter won't stop the kids from being turned gay.

Umm... What the fuck?

Wow. Then all the yaoi fangirls cream their drawers, missing the joke, but still happy.

secretsantaone:
Is it really worth it if it's cheapened? Surely it would be better to finish off this franchise and start a new one with a homosexual character, rather than shoe-horning it in so late. To me it just seems patronising, like 'here's your token gay relationship, now leave us alone.'.

On the issue of resources spent, let's have a look different at what different elements go into a videogame.

Writing - Someone has to write the romance, which characters, how it progresses, how it ends up etc.

Dialogue writing - After that, the dialogue between the characters needs to be written including multiple speech trees and paths for different conversation choices

Voice acting - Then they need to get the voice actors in to record the lines and the sound editors to get it into a fit state

Animation - Someone needs to animate the romance scenes, including a presumably unique sex scene which uses no stock animations

Coding - After that, someone needs to actually put all the different elements into the game and not have it clash with everything else

Quality control - The romance needs to be played through multiple times under different conditions to make sure there are no bugs or errors

So probably quite a bit of time I'd imagine.

This argument is so board it's pointless to even list this. I could take everything you just said and use for any argument from "Here's why they shouldn't allow any romance options" to "Here's why they shouldn't allow moral choices".

In order to have this in, it had to be planned. Back when the game was first starting, and since its elements were planned in the first one it's been in the planning since at least 2006. Nothing about Shepard beyond the actual romance dialogue trees ever seemed to say out loud what his sexual preference was, because it was always left up to the player's choice. Saying that they cheapened it and made it token seems belittling to said choice.

Syntax Man:
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo, lemme get this straight, Jim and Yahtzee can cus like sailors and the thing is fine with that, but an the mere mention of homosexuality it age gates the fucking thing?

Real mature, seems that this world still has a long way to go.

As for the actual episode...what the flying fuck was that?

Really? "The mere mention?". How was all of that a mere mention? SHEPERD POUNDING WREX'S BRIGHT GREEN ANUS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A MERE MENTION! Yahtzee and Jim may swear but rarely are their exclamations quite so graphic or in such a high concentration. Have you ever seen those "sex story" sites or the more icky parts of deviant art? All of those stories, no less graphic than what Jim read to us now and as a whole covering a range of topics from homosexuality to heterosexuality to bestiality (as I'm told), are age gated. I have a feeling that if Jim was to graphically describe heterosexual sex, it would also be age-gated in the exact same way as his gay erotic love story.

This is not "ooh homosexuality is icky" as much as it is "ooh sex is icky" and that problem rests with Western and particularly American culture as a whole. Not the Escapist.

Anyway, the point of the story that I drew from it was to satirise mass effect fans who are complaining about their shepard having the mere potential to be gay. (Though I doubt they're complaining about the Sapphic side of things)

DressedInRags:

Heaven's Guardian:
Not that it wasn't funny, but it really was a strawman argument; I think we've had enough threads about this already, but most of the objections are about canonical authenticity and over when gay relationships were introduced.

What, so if a strait femshep decides to bat for the other team in the second installment, that's acceptable?

But when a male Shepard does it, then OMG CONTINUITY FUCKUP?

That makes no sense to me.Is femshep allowed to get away with it because they're more used to seeing girls go both ways in their porn? Has no-body told these people that men can be casually bisexual as well?

Did you play the first game at all? You do know that there was a lesbian option in the first game, right? There aren't continuity issues there. If you were referring to the ability to change your mind between games, you can't even do it in that direction; you can't start a new relationship with Liara in LotSB. And if the developers really felt the need to introduce a gay option to make a character casually bisexual when Shepard, with one exception, can't have casual sex at all, that seems like an epically poor decision, since it cannot be an action that Shepard takes in-game. So your objection is moot, and as a side note, you really should learn your homonyms.

El Luck:
Ok this doesn't have anything to do with the video but why am I being asked to verify my age?

The last thing this vid needs is homophobic comments: i.e: an audience under the age of 18

very very subtle....

if you need me I will be in the toliet

Vault101:
[

so you say your "anti-gay"....does that mean you think gays should be "cured" in some way or another?

anyway I dont see why its a big deal, persoanlly I dont see this as "catering to a specifi group" I see it more as allowing more options for shepard..both in charachter and romance options

I've written some detailed posts on it with mixed responses, no need to start a fight about it. In short we don't have a "cure" for homosexuality that's viable right now, though ideally that will happen with time, and more akin to what I've posted in commentary on science fiction (ie have the condition elimited in the process of simply making people perfectly healthy) as opposed to some kind of witch hunt with people being run down and dragging off to surgey clinics or having needles stuck in their arm or anything.

In the short term I think gay men and lesbians need to be considered seperate issues. Men and women are differant both physically and psychologically, and this applies to homosexuals as well. Despite liberal assurances that it's not the case, the reality is that gay men ARE more likely to attack children than just about any other group. Even with the statistics put out by the left wing you see you'll notice a trend to use stats compiled from all homosexuals and then applied to the arguements, once you remove the lesbians you wind up with gays being twice as likely to attack children as straight guys which kind of destroys a lot of the point. Not to mention that such statistics are compiled with an agenda and you'd only see the left wing promoting statistics that reinforced what they wanted to say.

Most importantly though I've had a lot of experience with such things, both having been trained to deal with sexual predators, and having looked into it being a sex abuse victim myself (which does not invalidate anything I say). One thing you'll notice is that you just don't see lesbians attacking little girls, I mean sure, I'm sure there are exceptions where it's happened, but very rarely. When you hear about homosexual assault, who is it that does it? Gay men. That's not just bad press, in about a decade of working as casino security where morons leave their kids unattended off the gaming floor and don't want to pay for daycare or whatever, I have literally dealt with dozens if not hundreds of gay men trying to lure little boys, more than I've seen straight guys with little girls (and that does happen with some frequency). I have not run into a single lesbian trying to pick up little girls... so really it's not bad press, that's how it is "on the street" so to speak from someone who was paid to look out for things like this. Of course due to concerns over NAMBLA we had to treat the gay pedos with kid gloves, but that's a whole differant story.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think gay men should be arbitrarly lined up, executed, castrated, or anything else. We're not dealing with a situation where this is the case for every gay man or anything of the sort. I do however think gay men should be registered, much like sex offenders, but without the active tracking. They should be prohibited from going places around children as a matter of policy, and probably given twice the penelties as normal for violations or if they are caught trying to actually go after children. By a lack of active tracking I mean I don't think an entire neighborhood needs to be informed that so and so is gay, but I do think schools should be basically informed, and it should be attached to IDs so if say some gay guy comes into a casino and gives his ID to be allowed to gamble casino security is aware, and can also inform the guy where to stay away from (arcades, day care, etc..) to prevent accidental tresspass and similar things.

Overall while many people would object out of hand, this is an attitude that has come from long experience, and I've gone through periods where I've been more or less extreme. This seems like a pretty middle ground compromise as it presents few limitations. To be honest as a straight guy I don't hang around schools, playgrounds, arcades, etc... unless I have a good reason (like being paid security) so really being told you can't go there isn't something that is going to hamper most people unless they are up to something to begin with. It's very much one of the cases where I actually think the maxim "only the guilty should be concerned" kind of applies. Some would talk about railing against any kind of limitation, but at the same time I'd ask WTF would an adult man with allegedly no interest in kids fight for the right to go hang around a playground or children's arcade? I mean seriously.

... and trust me, from experience, if you see some solitary guy hanging out in an arcade watching the kids there is very rarely a good reason for it. Sadly you can't do anything out of hand, but trust me, after about 10 minutes you can almost guarantee your going to have to at least step in and make your prescence known at some point (at which point the guy will almost universally go scurrying like a cockroach).

Part of it is what they called "colored glasses" when I took Criminal Justice. Basically people remain optimistic and liberal because they never really see the world properly the way how someone who does law enforcement, "high end" security work, or receives the proper training does. See, you take the right training, watch people through cameras when they don't think they are being observed, and respond to incident after incident and write (or read) report after report, you see things as they actually are, and can recognize behaviors you once wouldn't have been alarmed by for what they are.

Criminals an predators survive because they seem normal, your child molester, shoplifter, pickpocket, stairwell rapist, mugger, or whatever doesn't look like some dude from America's most wanted. He looks like your ordinary person, and can talk a good game about being harmless. Most homosexual predators for example are EXACTLY the guy who looks like the poster child for "we're unfairly maligned, and don't attack children" they don't go walking around covered in tattoos and looking like prison rapist nightmares, or dirty old men. Just like a shoplifter might be an old lady who looks like (and probably is) someone's grandmother, especially if it's part of an organized ring because people tend to be a lot more laid back with the elderly not to mention all the special laws about treating them with kid gloves and so on. You watch this crap 20 million times on a camera and it burns in.

While I'm rambling in a long post, I might as well explain how this kind of thing works as well. See, little boys are braver than girls and have immortal action and adventure fantasies in their head, they are warned, and take warnings less seriously than girls who tend to be a bit more aware of people being after them probably because people teach them more seriously. Your typical gay pedo is going to be some normal looking guy in his 20s or 30s, maybe even good looking, who hangs around an arcade or similar place, to see who has been left without parents or a sibling, and hasn't fallen in with another pack of kids. Or more indidiously for those carrying books, because kids have homework and a lot of your casino parents will have the kids their kids bring the homework to the casino. Basically the pedo will probably play a few video games, offer the kid some extra quarters or something, and then when the kid runs out offer to help him with his homework. The kid probably wants to go somewhere quiet to concentrate with a flat surface so it's pretty easy to gert the kid to enter a stairwell, where the cameras tend to be aimed at the landings. The pedo gets the kid into the stairwell and then goes to do homework with him in the middle of the landing where they can sit, or the kid can *ahem* turn around and use the steps as a flat surface. In that position it's where the pedo can do his thing and unless a security officer comes by on a patrol, at the right moment your going to find the traumatized lad crying with the guy long gone. Even if you find him, because it happened between landings there won't be a great video record since the act itself took place between landings. This is assuming the guy didn't mess with the cameras and security wasn't too busy to notice (given that there are tons of them). Now granted this rarely goes down, because well. there are procedures that make it harder to get away with, but really you'd be shocked how many normal looking dudes have tried to carry out that basic plan.

manic_depressive13:
How was that deserving of an age verification? So crudely drawn penises are fine but the line is drawn at reading aloud slash fic?

Of course, friend. We don't want our readers turning gay, now do we?

Redlin5:
*slow clapping*

We are in the presence of a master satirist. Oh and that filter won't stop the kids from being turned gay.

Props.

OT: I would just like to say that even a person who enjoys the attention of men, some of that was... disturbing. To say the very least. I appreciate the satire though.

All of the one-liner witticisms I want to make might get me booted from the forums for being too sexually explicit.

I now consider you awesome.

Thank you Jim.

Xanthious:

Varya:

Tanakh:
I am not particulary trilled by a gay shepard, my problem is that it feels like retconning.

Realizing I'm cutting your whole rant just to bash on this one staement but I have to. This is a BS argument for several reasons.
1. A lot of people will START at ME3, and a game should, while taking it's legacy in account, try and be a stand alone work. Anyone starting at 3 have no history to "betray" by playing GayShep
2. You can play ME1 and 2 with the intention of being GayShep, but not finding a suitable partner. RPG options 4 the win.
3. People come out as gay in every period of their lives. He could have been in the closet or just bi-sexual untill now. Again, roleplay.
4 I can play as the SAME Sheppard but with different faces and different personality in all three games. They let me fuck up my own history if I want to, why on earth would that freedome not be extended to sexuality.
5 it's a friggin OPTION! If it messes with YOUR Sheppard, he can be as straight as you want to. I wanna give it to Garrus up the arse, why would you care if I do that?

Well if we accomodatd your Shepard then what about the people that want to be able to bugger livestock with their Shepard? Are they not as important as the gay crowd? What about the people out there that want a pedo Shepard? Do we accommodate them too and maybe throw a couple little boys on the ship? These are all just options after all.

So because EVERY choice isn't avaiable no choice should be? I mean come on. OK, I'm gonna go against my better judgement and take you seriously.
Having romance potions is not a new thing in ME. We're simply expanding on themes, not taking things in new directions. So expanding romance options is NOT the same as letting everyone decide if they wanna battle reapers or herd cows. Not that that is unheard of, in ME1 you couldn't pursue you lifelong goal of looking at a scanner for hours at an end, but the BioWare went crazy and let you do that in ME2, while everyone who made their Sheppard enjoy driving a car in ME1 had their experience ruined because they could no longer take long drives at the surfaces of barren worlds.
As for ypur second point, if you don't understand the difference in how appropriate it is for a character to be gay and be a pedophile, you've got serious problems. I mean, honest to god, long hours of therapy, kind of problems. If you think homosexuality is objectionable in and of itself, a so called "homofobe", which is the logical conclution I do from someone comparing homosexuality with pedophilia, then say so, so that I can dismiss you for a little twat. I sincerely hope you simply used an ill-adviced comaprison and are in fact, not a little twat.

Therumancer:

Vault101:
[

so you say your "anti-gay"....does that mean you think gays should be "cured" in some way or another?

anyway I dont see why its a big deal, persoanlly I dont see this as "catering to a specifi group" I see it more as allowing more options for shepard..both in charachter and romance options

snip.

having a "cure for the gay" is an ethical shitstorm... and the fact is pletny WONT want to be cured

also is pedopheillia the same as Gayness?

I mean is a man who molests a boy "actually" gay (gay in that he has a sex life with other gay med) or is he only interested in little boys? if so theres a difference

also..attachting a stigma to being gay like that...can you jsut imagine? what would set everything back, "coming out" would be a death sentence and nto to mention gay youth suicides

I still think your lumping all gay men together

That was probably the most amazing thing I have ever have and ever will hear.

Thank god for Jim Sterling!

Therumancer:
SNIP

What are you talking about? If you are going to say anything so dripping with bullshit please come with a source so it can be torn apart.

Prepubescent boy are inherently feminine in biological design, being nearly identical to prepubescent girls everywhere but genitalia. Gay men are attracted to MEN, aka masculine features. If you are going to do anything stupid like equating sexual deviancy to sexual preferences then at least make the most logical connection there is: straight men are the pedophiles.

But sexual deviancy isn't about sexual preferences. It's not even about sex. Power, control and anger are the always primary motives. In a study of 1300 convicted rapists, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill: most were well-adjusted people who had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.

Therumancer:

Vault101:
[

so you say your "anti-gay"....does that mean you think gays should be "cured" in some way or another?

anyway I dont see why its a big deal, persoanlly I dont see this as "catering to a specifi group" I see it more as allowing more options for shepard..both in charachter and romance options

I've written some detailed posts on it with mixed responses, no need to start a fight about it. In short we don't have a "cure" for homosexuality that's viable right now, though ideally that will happen with time, and more akin to what I've posted in commentary on science fiction (ie have the condition elimited in the process of simply making people perfectly healthy) as opposed to some kind of witch hunt with people being run down and dragging off to surgey clinics or having needles stuck in their arm or anything.

In the short term I think gay men and lesbians need to be considered seperate issues. Men and women are differant both physically and psychologically, and this applies to homosexuals as well. Despite liberal assurances that it's not the case, the reality is that gay men ARE more likely to attack children than just about any other group. Even with the statistics put out by the left wing you see you'll notice a trend to use stats compiled from all homosexuals and then applied to the arguements, once you remove the lesbians you wind up with gays being twice as likely to attack children as straight guys which kind of destroys a lot of the point. Not to mention that such statistics are compiled with an agenda and you'd only see the left wing promoting statistics that reinforced what they wanted to say.

Most importantly though I've had a lot of experience with such things, both having been trained to deal with sexual predators, and having looked into it being a sex abuse victim myself (which does not invalidate anything I say). One thing you'll notice is that you just don't see lesbians attacking little girls, I mean sure, I'm sure there are exceptions where it's happened, but very rarely. When you hear about homosexual assault, who is it that does it? Gay men. That's not just bad press, in about a decade of working as casino security where morons leave their kids unattended off the gaming floor and don't want to pay for daycare or whatever, I have literally dealt with dozens if not hundreds of gay men trying to lure little boys, more than I've seen straight guys with little girls (and that does happen with some frequency). I have not run into a single lesbian trying to pick up little girls... so really it's not bad press, that's how it is "on the street" so to speak from someone who was paid to look out for things like this. Of course due to concerns over NAMBLA we had to treat the gay pedos with kid gloves, but that's a whole differant story.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think gay men should be arbitrarly lined up, executed, castrated, or anything else. We're not dealing with a situation where this is the case for every gay man or anything of the sort. I do however think gay men should be registered, much like sex offenders, but without the active tracking. They should be prohibited from going places around children as a matter of policy, and probably given twice the penelties as normal for violations or if they are caught trying to actually go after children. By a lack of active tracking I mean I don't think an entire neighborhood needs to be informed that so and so is gay, but I do think schools should be basically informed, and it should be attached to IDs so if say some gay guy comes into a casino and gives his ID to be allowed to gamble casino security is aware, and can also inform the guy where to stay away from (arcades, day care, etc..) to prevent accidental tresspass and similar things.

Overall while many people would object out of hand, this is an attitude that has come from long experience, and I've gone through periods where I've been more or less extreme. This seems like a pretty middle ground compromise as it presents few limitations. To be honest as a straight guy I don't hang around schools, playgrounds, arcades, etc... unless I have a good reason (like being paid security) so really being told you can't go there isn't something that is going to hamper most people unless they are up to something to begin with. It's very much one of the cases where I actually think the maxim "only the guilty should be concerned" kind of applies. Some would talk about railing against any kind of limitation, but at the same time I'd ask WTF would an adult man with allegedly no interest in kids fight for the right to go hang around a playground or children's arcade? I mean seriously.

... and trust me, from experience, if you see some solitary guy hanging out in an arcade watching the kids there is very rarely a good reason for it. Sadly you can't do anything out of hand, but trust me, after about 10 minutes you can almost guarantee your going to have to at least step in and make your prescence known at some point (at which point the guy will almost universally go scurrying like a cockroach).

Part of it is what they called "colored glasses" when I took Criminal Justice. Basically people remain optimistic and liberal because they never really see the world properly the way how someone who does law enforcement, "high end" security work, or receives the proper training does. See, you take the right training, watch people through cameras when they don't think they are being observed, and respond to incident after incident and write (or read) report after report, you see things as they actually are, and can recognize behaviors you once wouldn't have been alarmed by for what they are.

Criminals an predators survive because they seem normal, your child molester, shoplifter, pickpocket, stairwell rapist, mugger, or whatever doesn't look like some dude from America's most wanted. He looks like your ordinary person, and can talk a good game about being harmless. Most homosexual predators for example are EXACTLY the guy who looks like the poster child for "we're unfairly maligned, and don't attack children" they don't go walking around covered in tattoos and looking like prison rapist nightmares, or dirty old men. Just like a shoplifter might be an old lady who looks like (and probably is) someone's grandmother, especially if it's part of an organized ring because people tend to be a lot more laid back with the elderly not to mention all the special laws about treating them with kid gloves and so on. You watch this crap 20 million times on a camera and it burns in.

While I'm rambling in a long post, I might as well explain how this kind of thing works as well. See, little boys are braver than girls and have immortal action and adventure fantasies in their head, they are warned, and take warnings less seriously than girls who tend to be a bit more aware of people being after them probably because people teach them more seriously. Your typical gay pedo is going to be some normal looking guy in his 20s or 30s, maybe even good looking, who hangs around an arcade or similar place, to see who has been left without parents or a sibling, and hasn't fallen in with another pack of kids. Or more indidiously for those carrying books, because kids have homework and a lot of your casino parents will have the kids their kids bring the homework to the casino. Basically the pedo will probably play a few video games, offer the kid some extra quarters or something, and then when the kid runs out offer to help him with his homework. The kid probably wants to go somewhere quiet to concentrate with a flat surface so it's pretty easy to gert the kid to enter a stairwell, where the cameras tend to be aimed at the landings. The pedo gets the kid into the stairwell and then goes to do homework with him in the middle of the landing where they can sit, or the kid can *ahem* turn around and use the steps as a flat surface. In that position it's where the pedo can do his thing and unless a security officer comes by on a patrol, at the right moment your going to find the traumatized lad crying with the guy long gone. Even if you find him, because it happened between landings there won't be a great video record since the act itself took place between landings. This is assuming the guy didn't mess with the cameras and security wasn't too busy to notice (given that there are tons of them). Now granted this rarely goes down, because well. there are procedures that make it harder to get away with, but really you'd be shocked how many normal looking dudes have tried to carry out that basic plan.

Holy shit, I don't even know where to begin.
I'm just gonna write a few points and then weep for the world a bit.
Pedophilia and homosexuality is NOT the same thing! I'm not gonna claim to be an expert but for pedophiles, the sex of the child is often irrelevant, but as you say, boys are braver, and therefore and easeier target. This does not mean pedophiles are gay.
I'm not even gonna try and debunk your "numbers" here but I'll just say that sexual deviances is more frequent in an evniorment where you're not accepeted as you are, so IF (big if) there's any truth to yuour numbers, it's more than likely the fault of people like you.
Equating homosexualtiy woth pedophilia is fucking disgusting, of course you'll hate gays if you thing that they are the same as pedos, but they're not.
You talk of wanting to cure the gay? News flash, they don't want to be cured and you have no fucking right to inflict your worldview on them (thank god)
And as for wanting to track Gays, holy shit you do realise what you are saying? Ever heard of innocent untill proven guilty? And as for why annyone not a pedo would be upset if they were forbidden to enter a school? How about them beng upset for being singled out and treated as jews in WWII Germany. I normaly try and avoid Goodwin but you speak of making gay's having to be marked as fucking cattle
I realise your problems are too deep to be swayed by a furious guy on a forum, but serIously, get perspective. Go get some facts, a bit of perspective.
People like you make me physically ill, and I try and maintain a civil,tone, but you are talking about some of my friends and family here so it's a bit close to home.

Orekoya:

Vault101:
SNIP

What are you talking about? If you are going to say anything so dripping with bullshit please come with a source so it can be torn apart.

Prepubescent boy are inherently feminine in biological design, being nearly identical to prepubescent girls everywhere but genitalia. Gay men are attracted to MEN, aka masculine features. If you are going to do anything stupid like equating sexual deviancy to sexual preferences then at least make the most logical connection there is: straight men are the pedophiles.

But sexual deviancy isn't about sexual preferences. It's not even about sex. Power, control and anger are the always primary motives. In a study of 1300 convicted rapists, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill: most were well-adjusted people who had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.

I think you quoted the wrong guy

Varya:

I think you quoted the wrong guy

Noticed and fixed.

Ooh, touchy subject.

As for the video: I felt uncomfortable looking a Jim when he was reading it. Not sure why. I probably prefer my slash in written form rather than dramatic reading. But I got the point of it.
As for the "story" itself, I've read better. But also I've read far, far worse, so good on you.

I really don't understand the people bitching about this whole issue. Noone is forcing anybody into anything.

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